cfalk
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Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:54 am

Following the bombing in Tel Aviv, which once again targetted civilians at random with no intention of targeting a military or otherwise justifiable target, specifically with the intent of causing as much carnage among innocents as possible, the Palestinian government has condoned the attack by calling it "justified" and refusing to denounce it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060417/ts_nm/mideast_dc_7

As many people on this board may know, I have been a supporter of Palestine existing independently behind 1967 borders without any Israeli settlements. But this now proves that the government of Palestine has now fallen into the hands of absolute fanatics who have no intention of seeking peace with their larger neighbor.

If I were Israel, I would make the following ultimatum.

1) The Palestinian Authority is now on probation (double-secret probation, if you will).

2) They have 3 months to anounce that they recognize Israel and its right to exist, and their commitment to find a two-state solution via negotiations.

3) During those three months, if there are any more terrorist bombings on Israelis, Israel will be expecting to see severe arrests and punishment on the responsible groups. If such action is not visible, Israel will consider the Palestinian Authority as directly responsible.

4) If conditions 2) and 3) above are not both satisfied within 3 months, Israel will invade and occupy all PA territory, will disband the PA government, and place former PA territory under military governorship under martial law.

5) Israel commits that, if an invasion is made, there will be no further settlements by Israel, and the primary purpose of the occupation would be to put in place new elections for a PA within 2 months. Be aware though, if the Palestinians elect again a party which does not include recognition of Israel and renouncement of terrorism as a justifiable tactic, the occupation force will stay, the government will not be allowed to form, and new elections will be called again.

6) If the Palestinians elect a government which will recognize Israel and renounce terrorism, the Israeli Army commits to aid, if required, in the formation of the government, and shall leave PA territory as soon as the restored PA government requests.

The theme song of the operation: Bob Dylan's "The Times They Are A-Changin'"

Enough is enough. The Palestinians need to realize that they will be held accountable for their stupid choices. If necessary, a few months of martial law should make the message clear: 1) Israel will exist within 1967 borders. Deal with it; and 2) Any other concessions, such as settlements, the Wall, economic assistance, shall depend entirely upon the behaviour of the PA, particularly its government.

Of course, the big question will be the reaction of Iran and the Arab states. They will clearly be pissed, but will be unlikely to actively interfere if Israel makes an official commitment that 1) the occupation will be short and will not seek to increase settlements, and 2) that Israel is absolutely commited to the operation if the conditions are not met, and conversely that they will stand down if Hamas changes its tune.

The US would have to stay out of it, but can back up Israel morally, as the PA-Israel situation is exactly the same as the situation with Afghanistan after 9/11 - a state that has decided that it will aid and encourage terrorism.

{Flamesuit on}
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
texan
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:02 am

Do not have a problem with the majority of what you have said. While the majority of us have held out hope for a relatively peaceful resolution for many years, it appears that any such solution is impossible with the current government the Palestinians have in place. Still hope for a Palestinian state and that Israel can avoid any major conflict, but it may be unavoidable.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Derico
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:11 am

The problem with #5 is that it just doesn't work that way. If Israel were to call for new 'elections', you can be assured that the most anti-Israeli party would win, because the Palestinians would in masse have a protest vote.

Israel, or any country, can't ever expect to disband a democratically elected government (which Hamas was whatever else they may be), and then expect the people to vote in a government friendly to such action. It's just human nature to do the exact opposite.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
777236ER
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:16 am

It's not a state at all.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
cfalk
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
The problem with #5 is that it just doesn't work that way. If Israel were to call for new 'elections', you can be assured that the most anti-Israeli party would win, because the Palestinians would in masse have a protest vote.

Then the occupation and martial law will remain.

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
It's just human nature to do the exact opposite.

I know that. But at some point, you just have to lay down the law. After 50 years of violence, I think that time has come. Just like when you have a rotten kid which which "time-outs" have not done the job, the next step is going to be stricter and hard.

The Palestinians need to realize that THEY are the ones in control of the situation. They are not the victims anymore - they are the petulant children who refuse all efforts at discipline or education. All they have to do is recognize Israel and renounce terrorism, and Israel will talk to them, and most of the world will pressure Israel to make concessions if they are reasonable (such as dismantling settlements or moving back the wall).
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Ibhayi
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:09 am

Why do they cry so bitterly?

Can't a few Jews have a little patch of the earth to call home? Yet the Muslim's have Iran, Iraq Saudi and Indonesia etc.
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
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n229nw
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:05 am

Hmmm. The problem with this kind of ultimatum is that it is always one-sided. You seem to assume that Israel is willing to exist in 1967 borders, which of course many Israeils are (just as many Palestinians are willing to exist side by side with Israel now). But for a long time the Israeli elections have continuously selected parties that oppose a rollback to those borders.

If a just two-state solution were to be imposed by force, it would also have to include the following types of requirements: A massive UN peacekeeping force takes over Israel, disbanding the government and the IDF until the Israeli people agree to hold new elections and select a government that will stop violating UN resolutions, drop or at least reroute the "security wall," remove ALL settlements outside the 1967 borders, and divide Jerusalem.

Of course that could never happen in a million years...Israel is too strong and has too much US support for that to happen. But you see the problem with treating people like 3-year-olds. They don't react well to being condescended to, especially when it is only one side that is treated in this patronizing way.

At the bottom line is this: collective punishment does not work. It makes things worse. Torturing, starving, or bulldozing the houses of families and neighbors of a bomber makes more bombers not fewer, and is contrary to every notion of justice the "anti-terrorist" West claims to be standing on.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that should never have been elected. The Center and Right Israeli parties should also never have been elected, when they have so little regard for justice and human life.

It makes me really angry to read about another idiot blowing himself up.
But it also makes me really angry to read about Israel closing off the West Bank and basically trying to starve Palestinian civilians into getting rid of Hamas... http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1754910,00.html

I don't know what will break this cycle of reaction, but it is going to involve some thinking outside the box. Your plan is packed tightly into that box...
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:07 am

It is terrible how Israel treats Palestinians. Israel is the bad guy here and is it strange how so many here can stay behind the awful state...  banghead 
 
bravo45
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:13 am

Israel is the terrorist state, the only state EVER to have militance rate of 100% and the only to have elected a war crimes criminal and then that man to have been called "man of peace".

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 5):
Can't a few Jews have a little patch of the earth to call home?

Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.
 
dl021
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 7):
It is terrible how Israel treats Palestinians. Israel is the bad guy here and is it strange how so many here can stay behind the awful state...

I'd ask the average poster if they were being ironic, but I don't think you are. Am I incorrect? If so I apologize, but if I'm correct then I think you should move to Palestine.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Ibhayi
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.

I have no qualms with giving them a bit of dessert down here, they can invade all they want around the dessert.
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
MDorBust
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Israel is the terrorist state, the only state EVER to have militance rate of 100% ....

Nations with mandatory military service:

Austria
Belarus
Bermuda
Brazil
Bulgaria
Chile
China (PRC)
Croatia
Cyprus
Denmark
Egypt
Eritrea
Finland
Germany
Greece
Iran
Israel
Korea, South
Lebanon
Malaysia
Mexico
Norway
Poland
Romania
Russia
Serbia and Montenegro
Singapore
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan (ROC)
Turkey
Ukraine
Venezuela
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):

Israel means nothing to me.
Nothing at all.
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.

Excuse me but the way you repeatedly refer to Israel's past, is not only wrong but in my view one of the reasons why this conflict doesn't end.
Just what historical events are you refering to?

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 7):
It is terrible how Israel treats Palestinians. Israel is the bad guy here and is it strange how so many here can stay behind the awful state

So you've found your simple Scandinavian truth, now leave us alone with ours.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
Nations with mandatory military service

Well it is not directly mandatory in Denmark. You have to take a number like in a lottery and if you get a number below a certain level, you have to join the army for atleast 4 months now which isn't actually very bad. I got a number above that level which means that I don't have to join the army.
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Israel is the terrorist state, the only state EVER to have militance rate of 100% and the only to have elected a war crimes criminal and then that man to have been called "man of peace".

You are from Pakistan, your whole country is supporting Kashmir rebels and are at an almost constant nuclear stand off with India, your PM is a military leader, how should I view you and your country then?

Oh and about Sharon:

http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/kahan-commission-part9.html

Do some research and understand history, instead of listening too much to your anti Zionist sources, who ever they might be.
The strongest possible word you will find in the above linked article is "blunder"...

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
MKEdude
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:48 am

Re-occuping the territories would be a huge step back. It would simultaniously enrage the Muslim world,(a difficult task indeed) and not accomplish a damn thing. Sharon's policy of unilateral withdrawl is the only viable solution. And if they need to build a great big bloody wall to pull it off so be it!

The Palestinians will not magically disappear, and the Israelis are not going to be driven into the sea. There are going to be two states, no way around it. The only question is how many more people will die before this happens.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
soylentgreen
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:04 am

I sometimes wonder what we Americans would think if somehow 3 million Native Americans took over the United States, and relegated us to refugee status, and had us walk through check points each day. Would we stand for it? Could we stand for it? Good grief Israel, just give the Palestinians some land to call their own, and the whole world will be safer, especially that of your citizenry. Sometimes, you have to give a little to gain a lot.

It was the British Colony's land, it is Israel's land, it was the Palestinian's land, it was Egypt's land, it was the Babylonians' land, it was the Phoenicians' land, it was Astrolopiothicus man's land, it was Neanderthal man's land....can't we all recognize each other, respect history, and learn to co-exist?
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 19):

So you think this is all about Israel not wanting to give up land?

Secondly:

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 19):
I sometimes wonder what we Americans would think if somehow 3 million Native Americans took over the United States, and relegated us to refugee status, and had us walk through check points each day.

Now if the above was the history of Israel in brief, you have some reading to do.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
andessmf
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
It's just human nature to do the exact opposite.

No, its children's nature to do that. When (and if) you grow up, that stops.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.

Not all Palestinians were thrown out by force, they were asked to 'relocate' by Arab governments until they defeated the Jewish army (1948). I would further agree with you if the Arab governments that expelled 600,000 jews in 1948 also give them right of return.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 6):
But it also makes me really angry to read about Israel closing off the West Bank and basically trying to starve Palestinian civilians into getting rid of Hamas..

They are closing off their border with the Gaza Strip, not the sea routes or their border with Egypt. Where is that support from Arab states then?
 
N1120A
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):

Those countries either don't require military service for women or offer a civil service alternative.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):

Those countries either don't require military service for women or offer a civil service alternative.

exactly what I was trying to say.. thanks for summing it up!  Smile
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 23):

I read MDorBusts post as him trying to address Bravo45s insinuations, about Israel somehow is a dangerous terrorist state, because of its military drafting policies.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
dl021
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 19):
Good grief Israel, just give the Palestinians some land to call their own,

They did. The Palestineans will settle for no less than the destruction if Israel. They voted for Hamas who won't back off the rhetoric or the support for suicide/homicide bombers.

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 14):
Israel means nothing to me.
Nothing at all.

Well, then you're a supporter of murderers and terrorists with absolutely no grasp on reality. Pretty easy to be that when you're safe in some country that no one has bothered to invade in two centuries.
Israel means something to you otherwise you would not have posted.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):


Those countries either don't require military service for women or offer a civil service alternative.

Yeah, well have they been invaded 5 times in the last 60 years? Have they been forced to deal with terrorists non-stop for the entire time? There's a survival factor working there.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
stirling
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:56 pm

I am just wondering where in the 5 Pillars of Islam does it call for the destruction of Israel? If you're unfamiliar with them here is a quick refresher, they are FAITH, PRAYER, CHARITY, FASTING, and PILGRIMAGE. (Abbreviated Definitions)
Delete this User
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 25):

Indeed this is what the Qur'an says about Israel:

2:47 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations. 2:122 O Children of Israel! call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.

7:137 And We made the children of Israel, who were considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We leveled to the ground the great works and fine
buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride). 17:104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land of promise":
10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.

20:80 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you to give you the right side (the blessed side) of Mount Sinai, and We sent down to you Manna (special food) and quails.

26:59 Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the promised land)

45:16 We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophet hood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favored them above all other nations.

44: 32 And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.
[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

[17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, “ scatter and live all over the world…and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land”.


But when it comes to the Qur'an I can find inciting verses, that simply scares the hell out of me.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Superfly
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:53 pm

Hmmm, afters years of making less than positive comments about Israel, suddenly Cfalk is pro-Israel. Just as he is gearing up for a big move here to the United States. Sounds like Cfalk is trying to line up some donors when he runs for Congress.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
cairo
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:02 pm

Cfalk, I for one would support most of your ideas, except that the US has to be completely out of the picture. No support. No guarantees.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 18):
I sometimes wonder what we Americans would think if somehow 3 million Native Americans took over the United States, and relegated us to refugee status, and had us walk through check points each day.

OMG, you're implying that Americans themselves would in no way tolerate it if they were treated like the Palestinians have been treated since the 1940s. You're absolutely right. Have you been reading some non-US media or something?

Cairo
 
andessmf
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:13 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
Cfalk, I for one would support most of your ideas, except that the US has to be completely out of the picture. No support. No guarantees.

Ditto for the Arab side.
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
You're absolutely right. Have you been reading some non-US media or something?

Just because you are reading non- US media, does not guarantee you that it will be un biased, I am from Europe and I have seen my fair share of left winged and highly biased news reporting in Europe.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:08 pm

Sounds like a pretty peaceful bunch to me  sarcastic 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/17/telaviv.blast/index.html
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cfalk
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:47 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Those countries either don't require military service for women or offer a civil service alternative.

That's a cheap excuse after the fact. Palestinian terrorists (and Muslim terrorists in general) have never restricted themselves to non-military targets. Were the 3000 people in the WTC military? How about the passengers in the varioous airline hijackings over the years? How about bombings in Baghdad, Sharm-el-shiek and elsewhere?. Just a bunch of BS.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 17):
I sometimes wonder what we Americans would think if somehow 3 million Native Americans took over the United States, and relegated us to refugee status, and had us walk through check points each day. Would we stand for it?

If people live somewhere, but have never formed a government, and just live nomadically, someone WILL come and take your land, and organize it under a government and rule of law. That's happened in Europe, Asia, America, and the Middle East for thousands of years.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):
Hmmm, afters years of making less than positive comments about Israel, suddenly Cfalk is pro-Israel. Just as he is gearing up for a big move here to the United States. Sounds like Cfalk is trying to line up some donors when he runs for Congress.

I don't give a flying fart about the "Jewish Lobby" in the US or anywhere else. I'm just sick and tired of the Palestinians having been given chance after chance and just spitting in the eyes of those on whome they depend on to give them reasonable concessions.

For example, if I see a begger in the street, I'll gladly help him out for the price of a meal at McD's. But if he throws it back at me and says that only the Waldorf Astoria will do, tough shit. That's basically what the Palestinians have been doing

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
Cfalk, I for one would support most of your ideas, except that the US has to be completely out of the picture. No support. No guarantees.

Difficult, since the rationale will be EXACTLY the same as that used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan, which was supported by just about everyone.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:53 pm

I'm sick and tired of the media attention this shit gets, turn the cameras off and quit giving both sides the chance to be attention whores with these puerile publicity stunts (ie:bombings ). That's all terrorism is, violent acts for the instant "look at me, and pay attention" publicity that each side wants to ensure that their propaganda gets through. What needs to happen is they need to be excluded from the outside world and them left to fight it out by themselves with no outside help or media coverage at all, then they might quit with the showboating for the media and get down to business.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
N1120A
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 23):
Yeah, well have they been invaded 5 times in the last 60 years? Have they been forced to deal with terrorists non-stop for the entire time? There's a survival factor working there.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):
That's a cheap excuse after the fact. Palestinian terrorists (and Muslim terrorists in general) have never restricted themselves to non-military targets. Were the 3000 people in the WTC military? How about the passengers in the varioous airline hijackings over the years? How about bombings in Baghdad, Sharm-el-shiek and elsewhere?. Just a bunch of BS.

I wasn't commenting one way or another on this thread, only about MDorBust's baddly laid out rebuttel to the issue of conscription.

If you want to talk about terrorist acts, how about we talk about the 14 CIVILIAN aircraft blown up in Beirut in 1968? How about the Stern Gang? Perhaps the War Crimes perpetrated by Ariel Sharon at Sabra and Shatila?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
If you want to talk about terrorist acts, how about we talk about the 14 CIVILIAN aircraft blown up in Beirut in 1968? How about the Stern Gang? Perhaps the War Crimes perpetrated by Ariel Sharon at Sabra and Shatila?

So you can only come up with stuff that happened at least 30 years ago? Let's see, while the Stern gang was clearly terrorist, this happened in the late 1940s. And at some time Ben Gurion had enough and used the precedesor of the IDT to fight the Stern gang.
1968 Beirut ----> 40 years ago. You were not even born when this happened.
Sabra and Shatila: Wasn't this massacre carried out by Arab militias against their fellow Arabs (ok, while the Israelis under Sharon looked away? Also, if I remember correctly this also happened about 20 years ago. Wasn't there also the small matter of the PLO and their militias trying to take over political control over Lebanon, the way they tried without success in Jordania ten years before?

We are talking about terrorism here and NOW.
Your arguments sound like "Your greatgrandfather stole my greatgrandfather's donkey"

Jan

[Edited 2006-04-18 13:12:06]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
soylentgreen
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 18):
So you think this is all about Israel not wanting to give up land?

Yes, this is in large part, what would greatly reduce tensions and fighting, and perhaps set the foundation for peace. It's worth a try at this point.
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1318
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 25):

I did not want to make this thread divert into a religious war but just for your reference I would like to post the following links.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...E/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1124255786495

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...ar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545136

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...E/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016318

It would be helpfull if you read them with a calm mind so as not to take anything out of context.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
texan
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 7):
It is terrible how Israel treats Palestinians. Israel is the bad guy here



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Israel is the terrorist state

First off, I agree that Israel has acted in a very militaristic, undiplomatic, and frequently excessively violent manner. However, the difference here is that Israel is a state. While we are working toward a Palestinian state and Israel has given the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinians (and have been reducing settlements there, we might add), the Palestinians have been acting out against a sitting governmental authority in violent opposition. The question is, if there was such a group in another country, a Western country, would you support that country in attempting to quash the rebellion? Because when it comes down to it, what is ocurring there is a violent rebellion against people who disagree with another's religious beliefs. As long as you remain in a country, you are expected to abide by said country's laws. Failure to do so will result in punishment. When large, violent opposition forms and is supported by a government put in place by the violent offenders, the country who is being targeted for attacks will fight back or be killed. It is as simple as that.

I am not absolving Israel of blame here: I despise the tactics they use. But when a rebellious group rises against a government, the government will try to quash it. Any expectation otherwise is ridiculous.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
If you want to talk about terrorist acts, how about we talk about the 14 CIVILIAN aircraft blown up in Beirut in 1968? How about the Stern Gang? Perhaps the War Crimes perpetrated by Ariel Sharon at Sabra and Shatila?

Read about the investigation would you?
http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/kahan-commission-part9.html

Sharon did not support nor did he condone this massacre, claiming he did is proof that one is (and I am using a word N1120A once used to describe me) brainwashed.

Palestinians wanted to trial Sharon for war crimes at a tribunal in Belgium, yet the case was dismissed.

The "Stern gang" (or Lehi) never held more than 100 men, and was in my opinion an extreme group of people, that strived for one goal, which they set out to achieve despite the actions needed to be taken.
They are not the brightest ink on the papers of which we write Jewish history, but they were taken out of context by you, in an apologetic approach to the arguments aimed your way. They were disolved in 1948 some 58 years ago!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
how about we talk about the 14 CIVILIAN aircraft blown up in Beirut in 1968?

Tell me about that incident, what happened?! I really have no knowledge of the circumstances.

But please you emphasize on faults, mistakes and crimes done a handful of times over a course of 60 years or more.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 35):
Yes, this is in large part, what would greatly reduce tensions and fighting, and perhaps set the foundation for peace. It's worth a try at this point.

I understand what you mean, but I disagree that it will do much good.
Israel has already moved out of Gaza, I don't know if you remember that?.

Now Israel has stated that they wish to move the settlers on the West bank, so that they are with in the wall, then that would create an unofficial border with the Palestinian terretories. Is that a solution, or should Israel wait and see what Hamas comes up with?

http://www.mideastweb.org/thefence.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/israel_disengagement_map_2005.htm

Boaz
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
N1120A
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
1968 Beirut ----> 40 years ago. You were not even born when this happened.

Does that make it any less of a terrorist attack?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
We are talking about terrorism here and NOW.
Your arguments sound like "Your greatgrandfather stole my greatgrandfather's donkey"

Nice way to make light of the struggles of millions

Quoting Windshear (Reply 38):
Sharon did not support nor did he condone this massacre, claiming he did is proof that one is (and I am using a word N1120A once used to describe me) brainwashed.

You have got to be kidding me

Quoting Windshear (Reply 38):
The "Stern gang" (or Lehi) never held more than 100 men

Including former Israeli PM Yitzak Rabin

Quoting Windshear (Reply 38):
Tell me about that incident, what happened?! I really have no knowledge of the circumstances.

Israeli operatives stormed into BEY in the middle of the night and dynamited 14 planes, including 8 from MEA
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
windshear
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
You have got to be kidding me

I agree the chosen word you used back then was evenly dramatic, but I chose to use it, just for old times sake Big grin

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Including former Israeli PM Yitzak Rabin

So? I still do not think that they were realistic. I have an idea as to where you want this to go, but I really disagree with that strategy.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Israeli operatives stormed into BEY in the middle of the night and dynamited 14 planes, including 8 from MEA

Ok?! Why?
Out of lust for big bangs? Spare explosives to use?!
What were their motivations? Were there people in the planes?
You always come out with these dramatic sentenses, and then do not want to go into detail.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
N1120A
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 40):
What were their motivations?

I don't think anyone will ever know something official, but I think the three word phrase "to strike terror" works
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
cfalk
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
We are talking about terrorism here and NOW.
Your arguments sound like "Your greatgrandfather stole my greatgrandfather's donkey"

Nice way to make light of the struggles of millions

But you have to admit, he has a point. Should the US, Britain, France, Russia, China, Japan, Germany, all be at war today for all the killing that went on 50, 100, 200 years ago? At some point you have to admit to yourself that avenging transgressions long in the past will never get you anywhere.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting Windshear (Reply 38):
Sharon did not support nor did he condone this massacre, claiming he did is proof that one is (and I am using a word N1120A once used to describe me) brainwashed.

You have got to be kidding me



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting Windshear (Reply 38):
The "Stern gang" (or Lehi) never held more than 100 men

Including former Israeli PM Yitzak Rabin

You mean Yitzhak Shamir, I expect. Well, the whole world gave Arafat the benefit of the doubt that an old dog could learn new tricks.

And don't forget that the Stern Gang as well as the Haganah from which it was an offshoot, was a reaction to the attempts at ethnic cleansing by arabs against the jews in the 1920's. They were not the frst to go after civies, as far as I know.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Israeli operatives stormed into BEY in the middle of the night and dynamited 14 planes, including 8 from MEA

I've looked around, and all I can find about this incident was that it was in response to a PLFP hijacking of an El Al aircraft that lasted for over a month, and that Israel was punishing the Lebanese government for the support it was believed they gave the PFLP. I found no mention that anyone was targeted or killed - just the aircraft.

If accurate, this is not a terrorist act. Terrorism targets innocent civilians with the intention of causing as much blood and mayhem as possible.

If you have any evidence that the planes were intentionally blown with innocent people on board, please let me know. THAT would be terrorism.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
windshear
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist S

Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
I don't think anyone will ever know something official, but I think the three word phrase "to strike terror" works

Listen... You have used this civilian aircraft story before, and still you have no detail or anything, you just keep mentioning it.

I want to remind you that منظمة التحرير الفلسطينية hijacked four planes on Sept. 6th 1970, and parked them in the Jordanian desert. The aircraft were of the following aircraft:

El Al Flight 219 heading to New York, got hijacked in Amsterdam where it stopped for fuel and passengers.

Pan Am Flight 93 heading to New York, got hijacked in Brussels.

TWA Flight 74 was an around-the-world flight that got hijacked in Frankfurt

Swissair Flight 100 heading to New York, got hijacked in Zürich.

All in the same day and a total of 638 innocent crew, passengers, men, women and children.

All hostages came out of the ordeal intact, but the planes did not, they all were detonated in the desert, it was all filmed and taped for the world to see.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
We are talking about terrorism here and NOW.
Your arguments sound like "Your greatgrandfather stole my greatgrandfather's donkey"

Nice way to make light of the struggles of millions

But you have to admit, he has a point. Should the US, Britain, France, Russia, China, Japan, Germany, all be at war today for all the killing that went on 50, 100, 200 years ago? At some point you have to admit to yourself that avenging transgressions long in the past will never get you anywhere.

My father's family came originaslly from East Prussia and they lost their land as a result of WW2. Do I go and bomb Polish and Russian civilians over it? No way!
There are at least two generations of people who have ben born there since then. The land is lost. Get over it and start a new life. The only person in my family who was demanding action was my late grandfather, who has still lived there.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
FOMEA
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:10 pm

RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
Terrorism targets innocent civilians with the intention of causing as much blood and mayhem as possible.

Agreed.

Ironically, Today is Qana massacre 10th Anniversary.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/30/lebanon.funerals/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana .
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):

Israeli operatives stormed into BEY in the middle of the night and dynamited 14 planes, including 8 from MEA

With a bunch of people inside?

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 45):
Ironically, Today is Qana massacre 10th Anniversary.

But your reference refers to the fact that Israel apologized for the error of targeting civilians. The Palestinians would have celebrated if they had killed 100 Israeli civilians.
 
raffik
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 46):
your reference refers to the fact that Israel apologized for the error of targeting civilians. The Palestinians would have celebrated if they had killed 100 Israeli civilians.

It was an awful and vicious attack on civillian Israeli life- I am sure Fomea is not condoning it. He is merely implying that indescriminate killing and murder is wrong on both sides of the fence and bringing home the awful effect war has on families and friends of those wounded and killed.

Whether it be 9 people (Tel Aviv) or 100 people (Lebanon), these attacks are cowardly and devestating to the peace efforts.
- Alec
 
raffik
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 46):
Israeli operatives stormed into BEY in the middle of the night and dynamited 14 planes, including 8 from MEA

With a bunch of people inside?

Because the aircraft were devoid of passengers justifies the bombing of 14 civillian aircraft?? Had they been fighter jets, or military transporters, I could understand why, but they weren't.

If a Palestinian group attacked Israel (whether it be from Lebanon, or in the above case Athens) it was always Lebanese infrastructure that was punished-whether it was against MEA, Beirut Airport, Electricite Du Liban....

I was sitting in a bar, up in the moutains (in Lebanon), enjoying a beer when the national grid was hit by Israeli rockets. The moutainside and as far as the eye could see was plunged into darkness- the great and sprawling city of Beirut was black. Why? Because Israel and the PLO had been bickering again (this was during the illegal Israeli occupation of South Lebanon).

I could reel off a list as long as my arm about the number of times innocent Lebanese have been bombed, slayed, rocketed, slaughtered, you name it. Implying that it is only the Israelis who bleed is wrong. It is wrong on both sides. It gets me angry that Lebanon has been used and abused by the various factions inside it to wage their wars, and it time and time again took the punishment for Palestinian agression against Israel (the cause of which was the mass exodus of Palestinians out of Palestine in the 40s).

Enough said
- Alec
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:41 am

I started reading this thread with an interest in the topic. I now have a feeling of hopelessness and an empty heart, for the lack of better words. This whole thing has to be one of the worst, most discouraging things that has occured in human history.

I am tired of seeing Isrealis dying,
I am tired of seeing Palestinians dying,
I am tired of seeing innocent people dying,
I am tired of terrorism,
All of it for nothing, what good has it done.....

I'm just emotionally tired of it all........

Really and truly - why can't we all just get along........
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.

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