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n229nw
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I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:08 am

FIRST OF ALL: I freely admit there are people who take it too far. PC is counterproductive and stupid when taken to extremes. I’m also willing to have a good laugh at “Politically Correct Bedtime Stories” and other satire. I also like a lot of humor that is completely un-PC. No problems. There should and must be room for debate and flexibility. But:

1.) The exaggerated cases are a lot fewer than it is made out. These crazy examples from American rightwing talk show hosts and British tabloids, they get perpetuated over and over and over and blown up, and usually they are exaggerations or downright lies to begin with. I’d like to know how many people have personally encountered attempts to ban Christmas in their community (not heard about it from Bill O’Reilly on Fox news…) or personally experienced attempts to change the words to Bah Bah Black Sheep, etc. (not read about it in the Sun or Daily Mail, or fourth hand in some UKIP or BNP leaflet…)

Ok just from poking around on the internet a bit I found the following:

--On the story of “Hot Cross Buns” being banned by several councils in England because it might be offensive to non-Christians: This was absolutely 100% fabricated by the Daily Telegraph (including the photo, which was used out of context) and then repeated by Littlejohn and the other usual tabloid suspects. The Telegraph apologized later in small print, but this of course does not affect the continued use of this story to belittle the “PC Brigade,” even though it never happened.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/media/story/0,12123,978498,00.html
--According to Private Eye, the “Bah Bah Black Sheep” banning story is a myth that has been started several times by different tabloids, beginning back in the 80s, to discredit PC, and each time the (basically untrue) rumor has been repeated by other right-wing media sources from the original. At least one set of nurseries did really change the words to the rhyme, but not to avoid offence, rather to have children sing a different word each verse and expand their vocabulary.
--On O’Reilly and “banning” of Christmas in the US: it has been pretty well established that he sought out and found a few examples like a needle in a haystack to make his point, and that almost all of the towns and stores he claimed had banned Christmas had actually done no such thing; they had Christmas decorations up, etc. Here is another link:
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feat...re/2005/11/21/christmas/index.html

Another thing with those relatively few cases in which PC has been carried to an exaggerated extreme is that minorities themselves often don’t care about the word or event involved, but some overzealous official gets a bee in his/her bonnet somewhere and is worried about offending people. That is when you get the exaggerations, but people turn it into “they come here to our country and expect us to change everything to be done their way blah blah blah ...”

It becomes a kind of conspiracy theory almost: the whole world is being secretly run by a PC brigade and/or a few minority lobbyists who are nefariously banning everything “we” (i.e. Bill O’Reilly and the editor of the Daily Mail) hold sacred in life. Then, once the media put these “facts” out there, people can sit around in bars getting indignant about them and using them to blame their frustrations on others.

2.) Now about what PC HAS accomplished. It has asked that people think about respecting and including people whose voices were traditionally drowned out, whether that is women, the disabled, or ethnic minorities. It has helped raise consciousness about a lot of issues. It has helped get rid of expressions such as “Indian giver” etc. from US English, and countless others—and that is a good thing. It has raised the issue that children perform better in school when people and events from their various cultures and backgrounds are all represented in textbooks and curricula as role models; and that this seldom hurts the majority in the process. It has helped people learn about each other and consider each other’s feelings. It has at the very least sparked some important debates and conversations that are valuable whatever their outcome.

3.) So let’s look at the motives of people who complain about PC: I think the question is “What do people have at stake by blowing up and repeating the same exaggerated anecdotes about PC constantly?” Well, the backlash generally comes from those who could previously take for granted that it was their right as the empowered group in society to do and say whatever they want.

Now, OF COURSE you can be anti-PC without being “racist” or whatever; but generally the people who complain loudest do have an axe to grind or a chip on their shoulders. The attitude of “why should I have to change to consider the feelings of others when I used to just be able to do things my way?”

Maybe I’ll add to this later, but I should be writing something for work instead of A.net and this is already more than long, so just a couple of final examples:

In the US, there have been lawsuits and protests about affirmative action policies at Universities, by white students claiming their places were taken from them because a minority student was admitted with slightly lower test scores. Now, it is perfectly reasonable to be against affirmative action, for all sorts of good reasons, and that doesn’t make you a racist in any way (I happen to support affirmative action, but that is another discussion). But why for example have these same people never launched complaints and lawsuits about the “legacy” admissions policies of the same universities? (Those are the policies that allow the children of alumni to get in with lower scores.) So it’s ok for the already privileged to get special rights, but when it is a minority, then it is suddenly discrimination? Just food for thought...

I’ve overheard people complaining about PC because it stopped them from using outright racial slurs too. Indeed, a decent proportion of the time anti-PC is used to put a respectable face on racism: Just pop over and take a look at the “Stormfront White Pride” website right now (if you have the stomach for it). You’ll find that MANY posts there just frame their tirades as a backlash against PC and the “loony left.” In fact, scary enough, they don’t look too different from letters ranting on in mainstream forums about the same thing, even from some posts on A.net.

So, I’d say PC has done a lot more good than harm overall. But if you do want to bash it, at least get a little more creative than repeating the same rumors and cliches.

/rant

[Edited 2006-05-01 01:10:51]
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aloges
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:24 am

It's been the first time in quite a while that I've read a long post on a.net with great interest until the end. Thanks for speaking up, I do agree 100% with what you wrote!

[Edited 2006-05-01 01:25:49]
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AerospaceFan
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:36 am

I agree that the anti-PC backlash has its extremists. However, I wonder if the majority of Americans would be so angry at the political correctness police if officials in both the Republican and Democratic Parties demonstrated greater respect for their wishes.

Case in point: The term "illegal aliens" is not politically correct. Now, as far as the PC police are concerned, people who believe themselves entitled by nature to flood our country by disregarding our national border and sovereignty are merely "undocumented immigrants". This new term contains within its ambit the word "immigrant", thus allowing illegals to claim that they are speaking for all immigrants and facilitating their false claim that they, themselves, have the right of all immigrants, legal or illegal.

In fact, illegals are not immigrants. They are just aliens -- illegal ones, at that. In this case, a change in words have misstated the criminality of these "immigrants".

And now, on the streets of America, you see the consequences of Orwellian doublespeak, as emboldened illegals lay claim to a status they do not, by any legal right, enjoy.

You see what I mean? Words have meaning. If Democrats and Republicans alike would realize that the majority will no longer stand for the perversion of our way of life some of them advocate, where white is black and wrong is right, then your concerns will be alleviated, posthaste. But until then, query, whether the backlash should end, if we and our children are to have an America to call home in the future.

[Edited 2006-05-01 01:41:31]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:50 am

Can you explain to me how it's okay to have Kwanza on the calendar, Hanukah on the Calendar and then "Winter Holiday" which used to be Christmas.

That particular one rally chaps my ass.

While I agree there are extremists - I don't think the issue is extreme.

I suggest that if thre isn't careful monitoring on the PC crowd, then we will no longer be able to say anything to anyone for fear of hurting their sensitivities. Seems to me some people just need to get thicker skin and quit their blasted whining.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
Case in point: The term "illegal aliens" is not politically correct. Now, as far as the PC police are concerned, people who believe themselves entitled by nature to flood our country by disregarding our national border and sovereignty are merely "undocumented immigrants". This new term contains within its ambit the word "immigrant", thus allowing illegals to claim that they are speaking for all immigrants and facilitating their false claim that they, themselves, have the right of all immigrants, legal or illegal.

Illegal Immigrants . . . period. Seems relatively simple: Any way you slice it they are both Illegal and Immigrants . . . end of story.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:53 am

I don't think that they're immigrants, although it appears true, technically, they may be termed such. Using the term in such manner seems to be misleading, even when paired with the term "illegal".

"Immigrant" suggests that the government has approved a certain legal status. By rights, illegals are no more like other immigrants than trespassers are like invitees at law.

Please see:

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html

[Edited 2006-05-01 02:19:35]
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BDKLEZ
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting N229NW (Thread starter):
I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Perhaps, but keep your point short and sweet.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
In fact, illegals are not immigrants. They are just aliens -- illegal ones, at that. In this case, a change in words have misstated the criminality of these "immigrants".

Correction: It is probably better to say that illegals are not like other immigrants. A brief search of the relevant law appears to provide that it is technically correct to say that the term "immigrant" includes both legal and illegal immigrants.
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satx
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 9:24 am

I don't understand the anti-PC crowd either. It seems completely unnecessary. What's the worst that could happen? We'd all try to be a little more respectful to each other? Doesn't sound so bad to me.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Can you explain to me how it's okay to have Kwanza on the calendar, Hanukah on the Calendar and then "Winter Holiday" which used to be Christmas. That particular one rally chaps my ass.

I've never seen such a calendar and I have a family member who loves calendars.


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
While I agree there are extremists - I don't think the issue is extreme.

Looks like a deflection to me. You've repeatedly railed against the PC movement yourself. It's therefore no surprise that you see nothing wrong with it.


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I suggest that if thre isn't careful monitoring on the PC crowd, then we will no longer be able to say anything to anyone for fear of hurting their sensitivities.

"Will no longer be able to say anything to anyone?" Sounds like a completely unsubstantiated and irrational fear if you ask me.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Seems to me some people just need to get thicker skin and quit their blasted whining.

The only people I've seen complaining, until this thread, were the pro-Christian, anti-PC crowd.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
What's the worst that could happen?

I stand by my suggestion that the term "undocumented immigrant" has made it easier for illegals to misidentify themselves as just another form of immigrant.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
I've never seen such a calendar and I have a family member who loves calendars.

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Shall I continue?  sarcastic 

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
It's therefore no surprise that you see nothing wrong with it.

Again with the reading comprehension issues: I in fact have a BIG problem with it. PC in this country has been taken way too far. As I said, it won't be long before we won't be able to say anything to anyone for fear of NOT being politically correct . . .

Get thicker skin or just stay home . . . .quit sniveling . . .
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satx
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Again with the reading comprehension issues: I in fact have a BIG problem with it. PC in this country has been taken way too far. As I said, it won't be long before we won't be able to say anything to anyone for fear of NOT being politically correct . . .

I already had it right. The point was that you do not have a problem with the ANTI-PC-backlash crowd. Read it again if you have to. I don't think anybody would confuse you with a pro-PC person.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Get thicker skin or just stay home . . . .quit sniveling . . .

Again with the personal attacks? Sheesh.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Alyeska Pipeline Service Company

North Slope Borough

Sand Lake Elementary School, Anchorage School District

Shall I continue? sarcastic

I have yet to see a single calendar in any store with "winter holiday" on it where Christmas would normally be. You can keep on going until you can name where I can find such a calendar. As for the 1-2 week vacation some folks get, well, the day CHRISTMAS lasts two weeks I'll join your side. Last I checked it was just one single day.
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767Lover
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
I don't understand the anti-PC crowd either. It seems completely unnecessary. What's the worst that could happen? We'd all try to be a little more respectful to each other? Doesn't sound so bad to me.

The problem is when people have their character called into question for saying certain things, or when people are sued for saying such things.

For example: I'm a woman. Was I "offended" by what Keith Hernandez said? Not really, because I perceived it as just kidding around, or just the normal guy bullshit to one another. (It goes on around here enough anyway.) However, because what he said was deemed un-PC, it's all over the media and the guy is made out to be an asshole. He probably isn't an asshole. I don't know him, maybe he is an asshole, but you get my point.
 
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 10):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Get thicker skin or just stay home . . . .quit sniveling . . .

Again with the personal attacks? Sheesh.

If you take this personally, when it's addressed to everyone, on A-Net or otherwise, you really need to heed the advice . . .

 cry  cry  cry 
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deltagator
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 11:42 am

IIRC this quote came from Dennis Miller. Take it as you will given his comedy background and conservative leanings but...

"I find it hilarious that the people that defended free speech so much in the 60s and 70s are now the same people who whine about anything that is said. Welcome to Ironic USA, land of the new liberal, where your views are not freedom of speech."

Mexicans crossing the border without going through immigration/customs are illegal, if you're under 5'6" you are short, if you weigh more than 30 pounds more than you should for your height you're fat, and if you are missing most of your hair you are bald.
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GuitrThree
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 10):

I have yet to see a single calendar in any store with "winter holiday" on it where Christmas would normally be. You can keep on going until you can name where I can find such a calendar.

Oh quit playing 6 year old games... "show me, show me, show me, or I'm not believing it."

You know as well as anyone, that schools don't have Christmas breaks any more. They are "winter breaks," the same with Easter... all "Spring Breaks" now.. want to see a calendar? If you are a Yahoo user, go view their calendar online. Easter and Thanksgiving are no where to be found. Groundhog day? Yep. MLK day? Yep. April Fools day? Yep. But Easter? Nope.. Thanksgiving? Nope..

Holiday Trees. Spring Bunnies. The list goes on and on and people defend stupidity as "well show me a calendar."

Open you damn eyes and quit defending stupid practices like banning Christmas and Easter.

If you don't like them, don't celebrate them, but don't stop me from doing it.
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 11:55 am

PC has gone to far.... does everyone have to be wrapped up in cottonwool?
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satx
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 11):
The problem is when people have their character called into question for saying certain things, or when people are sued for saying such things.

Hmm. That's not the way I see it. For instance, I was glad when Rush Limbaugh was eventually fired from ESPN for seemingly racist comments. I think we could use more of that, personally. In fact I wish ESPN had faced far more flack for bringing in someone they must have known would say something beyond the realm of tasteful and respectful commentary.

Best case scenario is that ESPN knowingly chose to bump up ratings at the expense of common decency. Worse case scenario is that ESPN has a lax attitude toward racism.

Either way they should have been forced to explain their actions and fire whoever hired Rush. Instead, Rush was allowed to paint the situation as an attack from the 'liberal sports media.' Never mind that a 'liberal sports media' would never have hired his racist mouth in the first place.

So far as I can tell, the only people who are really at risk of being singled out by the pro-PC crowd are people who behave like spoiled little children. Since much of the right-wing talking heads fall into that group, I can certainly understand why there is such an anti-PC backlash among conservative Americans.
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GuitrThree
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 16):
For instance, I was glad when Rush Limbaugh was eventually fired from ESPN for seemingly racist comments. I

Really. So you feel its good to fire people for speaking their beliefs, guaranteed under the constitution.

Quoting SATX (Reply 16):
Best case scenario is that ESPN knowingly chose to bump up ratings at the expense of common decency. Worse case scenario is that ESPN has a lax attitude toward racism.

If you actually looked at McNabb's statistics and Playoff results, you would see that the media infact did elevate him. He, at that point, never played up to the likes of Favre, Elway, and the like.

Quoting SATX (Reply 16):
Never mind that a 'liberal sports media' would never have hired his racist mouth in the first place.

Racist Mouth? Ok. If you say so. If he is so racist, how come he lets blacks, i.e., Walter Williams, host his show? Oh, yea, to you, Conservative Blacks aren't really black. Yea.. and he's the racist.

Quoting SATX (Reply 16):

So far as I can tell, the only people who are really at risk of being singled out by the pro-PC crowd are people who behave like spoiled little children.

No.. what I call spoiled little children, are the ones that support the PC-pro crowd that is demanding that Christmas be called "Holiday Season," because it might offend the 5% of the people who actually DON'T celebrate it.

Those 5% of the people can find something else to do Dec 25th.

[Edited 2006-05-01 06:11:05]
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deltagator
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 17):
He, at that point, never played up to the likes of Favre, Elway, and the like.

He still hasn't nor will he ever play to their level. I guess I'm a non-PC rascist for saying it though.
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solarix
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 1:46 pm

Political Correctness is totally out of control and has got to stop! I'm so sick and tired of losing rights just because a small amount of people "might" be offended over something. If they don't like it they can stick it up their ass for all I care.... don't make me change my ways of life to accommodate you!!!

And for the PC crowd, what do you call a black person in Europe or in any other country outside of the US? I hope you aren’t calling them African Americans.
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copaair737
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 1:48 pm

The PC movement has just overrun everything. It seems anymore a guy can't say what he wants to say in fear of being labeled as a hater of some group. Its ridiculous. You can't refer to fat people as fat, and stuff like that. Why sugarcoat something that is obvious? It's ridiculous. Hey, I just go on with things, and don't worry about the PC crowd, but its just getting more and more ridiculous. It is especially rampant in this part of CA I live in. I agree with ANCFlyer in that, if you can't handle the criticism, grow a pair and quit being so sensitive. PC is creating more harm than good.

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deltagator
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Solarix (Reply 19):
And for the PC crowd, what do you call a black person in Europe or in any other country outside of the US? I hope you aren’t calling them African Americans.

I corrected someone here for calling someone who was a black person from the UK an African American. They kept arguing with me about it and then finally realized the guy wasn't American.

I also am amused at how only black folks can be African Americans but if you are of European descent and raised in Africa you are not considered that. Oh well, liberals and their love of "groups."
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satx
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 2:43 pm

So let me get this strait. Christians are under attack because a few holidays aren't listed on a few company or school calendars? Are you freaking kidding me? 83% of America describes itself as "Christian". You Christians aren't under attack, in fact you have a near complete lock on the American government, so quit trying to play that silly religious persecution card. It just makes you look childish when claim that one of the most pro-Christian countries in the whole world is out to antagonize 83% of its population just because of their religion. Give me a break.

Also, anybody who's fighting for the right to sound like a racist on national television might want to rethink that motivation. I'm all for free speech, but I've had coworkers fired for making comments that could be considered as racist and I have no problem with that. The world is too small and life is too short for that kind of nonsense. The idea that an 83% Christian nation would condone and even sympathize with the right of a talking head to spout racist comments on national television is just sick. If anyone is attacking Christian values, certainly it's all these conservative hatemongers that pepper our supposedly 'liberal' media.
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n229nw
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Can you explain to me how it's okay to have Kwanza on the calendar, Hanukah on the Calendar and then "Winter Holiday" which used to be Christmas.

That particular one rally chaps my ass.

I can explain it: you are comparing apples and oranges. First the apples: Kwanzaa and Hanukah are "marked on the calendar." Open up that calendar and look at December 25th. OMG, what's "marked on the calendar" there? Christmas. Hey, it might even have Orthodox Christmas marked too, on Jan. 6.

And the oranges: many schools now call it "winter break" instead of "Christmas break." Well, that is because the idea is that it covers all of those holidays "marked on the calendar." It isn't called Hankukah break or any other single name either. (But plenty of people still call it Christmas break anyway. Hell, I'm Jewish and I usually call it Christmas break.)

Similarly, when was the last time you bought something at a store and the clerk wished you "Happy Hanukah" Or Eid, or Kwanzaa on the way out? If they say "Happy Holidays" it is because, again, they are trying to avoid a specifc reference to any single holiday, trying to be inclusive and don't know your religion, not because they are trying to wipe out Christmas...

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
Case in point: The term "illegal aliens" is not politically correct.

Well, you make some fine points.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
if we and our children are to have an America to call home in the future.

But then this kind of ending seems to confirm the suspicion that ultimately it is a knee-jerk reaction. This country has been changing culturally since its inception, and it will keep changing. The sky isn't falling.

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 5):
Perhaps, but keep your point short and sweet.

Then don't read it. Sometimes you need more than a soundbite to argue and support your point.

Quoting Solarix (Reply 19):
Political Correctness is totally out of control and has got to stop! I'm so sick and tired of losing rights just because a small amount of people "might" be offended over something. If they don't like it they can stick it up their ass for all I care.... don't make me change my ways of life to accommodate you!!!

That is just the kind of cliched response I am reacting against. Did you actually read the opening post? What "rights" have you actually lost? Please...

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
It's been the first time in quite a while that I've read a long post on a.net with great interest until the end.

Thanks!

[Edited 2006-05-01 09:37:34]
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LTU932
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 20):
The PC movement has just overrun everything. It seems anymore a guy can't say what he wants to say in fear of being labeled as a hater of some group. Its ridiculous. You can't refer to fat people as fat, and stuff like that. Why sugarcoat something that is obvious? It's ridiculous. Hey, I just go on with things, and don't worry about the PC crowd, but its just getting more and more ridiculous. It is especially rampant in this part of CA I live in. I agree with ANCFlyer in that, if you can't handle the criticism, grow a pair and quit being so sensitive. PC is creating more harm than good.

Very true. But my impression is that not all countries are being too PC about using certain terms. Back home in Germany, we may use many words to describe one thing, however, not with the intend to be politically correct, but rather because it's in the nature of the German language.

As with many things in life, if you take something to extremes, it may backfire on you, and that's what seems to happen with PC in the US most of all. If political correctness is well applied and use without excesses, it may not be as bad. It's same as with alcohol, only without the effects on someone's health.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 13):
"I find it hilarious that the people that defended free speech so much in the 60s and 70s are now the same people who whine about anything that is said. Welcome to Ironic USA, land of the new liberal, where your views are not freedom of speech."

I tend to agree with that.
 
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 13):
"I find it hilarious that the people that defended free speech so much in the 60s and 70s are now the same people who whine about anything that is said. Welcome to Ironic USA, land of the new liberal, where your views are not freedom of speech."

I tend to agree with that.

Freedom of speech has to do with being arrested. Can you elaborate on who's being arrested and how it helps your case? The PC-movement doesn't result in jail time so far as I'm aware. At the moment it just sound like you're trying to see irony where there is none.
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 23):
I can explain it:

   Thanks for the verbose, unnecessary, overly PC diatribe . . .

I have Jewish friends . . . I don't send them Christmas Cards. They don't send me Hanukah Cards. We still enjoy the holidays together. It's a personal respect issue. But when it becomes wrong and in some places grounds for Human Relations Department intervention to say Christmas, then we've gone too damned far . . . period.

[Edited 2006-05-01 10:09:23]
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 5:14 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 25):
Freedom of speech has to do with being arrested. Can you elaborate on who's being arrested and how it helps your case? The PC-movement doesn't result in jail time so far as I'm aware. At the moment it just sound like you're trying to see irony where there is none.

I said I tend to agree with that, not that I fully agree. Of course, the PC movement doesn't get people arrested, but it restricts them through other means, for example some form of censorship. Freedom of speech seems to be only a liberty that has become empty in its meaning. Granted, it's a very important civil liberty embedded in pretty much any democratic country, but in the end, is there really true Freedom of Speech, in the most literal sense of the word? There isn't, at least not in the most literal way, and will probably never be. So even if nobody gets arrested for excercising their right to free speech, there will always be someone or something restricting it. May it be a moderator on an internet bulletin board, the government in a non-violent way or simply a small group of people who try to impose way of how we should express ourselves, like the PC movement.
 
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 23):
I can explain it:

Great explanation. Too bad you're talking to a brick wall with a gun.  Big grin
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gkirk
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 6:28 pm

Political Correctness is just a load of crap.
I should be allowed to say what I want, or celebrate what I want, without fear of offending other people.
So to those who think Political Correctness is good, then  talktothehand 
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 29):
I should be allowed to say what I want, or celebrate what I want, without fear of offending other people.

Fairly profound for you Kirkie -  silly  - but your point is simple and well taken.

That said, I don't get offended when the neighbors celebrate Kwaanza. So, I don't expect them to be upset when I celebrate Christmas. I don't raise billy hell when my friends celebrate Hanukah, nor do they give me "that look" when I'm carving a Christmas Turkey.

Tolerance, not political correctness; respect not fear; that's right answer.

Wonder why it's okay to have Kwaanza and Hanukah plastered all over the television, but when it's Christmas, you get Happy Holidays???

Cue long irrelevent unnecessary diatribe from N229NW.  sarcastic 
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 29):
Political Correctness is just a load of crap.
I should be allowed to say what I want, or celebrate what I want, without fear of offending other people.

Just like I should be able to call a two-week vacation a "winter holiday" without fear of offending a bunch of paranoid Christians?
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
Just like I should be able to call a two-week vacation a "winter holiday" without fear of offending a bunch of paranoid Christians?

Sure, why not?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. People should not tell other people what to say.

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
Just like I should be able to call a two-week vacation a "winter holiday"

P.S. As long as it's in the winter and not summer  Wink
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 32):

Sure, why not?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. People should not tell other people what to say.

And yet many charter members of the anti-PC brigade are vehemently opposed to companies and government institutions calling the old "Christmas Vacation" a "Winter Holiday". Why is that?
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 33):

Ask them why. I only speak for myself.
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 7:30 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 23):
Well, you make some fine points.

Thank you; I appreciate that.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 23):
But then this kind of ending seems to confirm the suspicion that ultimately it is a knee-jerk reaction. This country has been changing culturally since its inception, and it will keep changing. The sky isn't falling.

I think that the most recent wave of immigration is the first one in which the immigrants expect America to change to accommodate them, rather than to change to accommodate America. I am annoyed when I am told that there should be bilingualism in public education or public affairs, and every time I dial "311" -- the City of Los Angeles information line -- and hear Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa speaking in Spanish, it makes me cringe. This is America, not Mexico. I reject the "Mex-America" school of assimilation, despite the fact that some of President Bush's statements can be taken to indicate that he believes otherwise.

I love all kinds of Americans, as long as they are decent and upstanding, regardless of background, and in particular regardless of what language they speak at home or what country they are originally from. Hispanic Americans, like others who are here by invitation or otherwise by right, are some of the cream of the crop in this country, and I salute them as fellow citizens, legal residents, and legal immigrants. But by the same token, I reject the idea that illegal aliens should demand the same respect. While this country permits them to voice their needs, illegal aliens are not entitled to the respect that is given to those who are here legally, and they certainly do not have any right to demand that America change to accommodate their needs.

[Edited 2006-05-01 12:40:55]
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Can you explain to me how it's okay



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Thanks for the verbose, unnecessary, overly PC diatribe . . .we've gone too damned far . . . period.

You asked for an explanation. Sorry I didn't give you a one-sentence soundbite, and I used big three-syllable words like "December" and "calendar." Your response is "Nah Nah Nah I'm not listening. PC is bad!" Come on, I respect you because you usually have more of an argument than that schoolyard attitude.

Quoting SATX (Reply 28):
Great explanation. Too bad you're talking to a brick wall with a gun. Big grin

Thanks. Apparently so...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
Tolerance, not political correctness; respect not fear; that's right answer.

Actually, I have no problem with this wording. I'm not wedded to the words "politcal corectness" at all. In fact, it is a pretty stupid term. But most people who whine about PC also have little tolerance.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
Wonder why it's okay to have Kwaanza and Hanukah plastered all over the television, but when it's Christmas, you get Happy Holidays???

Um...have you been down in Mexico picking up some of those legal drugs?
The TV is covered with Christmas carols, decorations, services, etc. etc. from about Thanksgiving on. What the hell are you talking about. Typical anti-PC self-righteous evidence-free zinger.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 29):
I should be allowed to say what I want

You have free speech. You can sit in the pub and complain about "Pakis" and "niggers" all you want. I can call you a racist. You can call me the PC police. That's life I guess.

But, for example, children in school are not allowed to say what they want anyway. They have rules about insulting the teacher, rules about swearing in class, rules about bullying in various ways. So why can't teachers also instill some awareness of other ways in which children might be insulting their peers?

And people on the job are also not allowed to insult their customers. So there is reason to limit official wording in some cases (though of course it can be taken too far).

These are not the same as your right to say what you want in your spare time.
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 7:43 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
The TV is covered with Christmas carols, decorations, services, etc. etc. from about Thanksgiving on. What the hell are you talking about. Typical anti-PC self-righteous evidence-free zinger.

I think what ANCFlyer is saying is that schools and corporations have been phasing out the use of terms such as "Merry Christmas" in favor of "Happy Holidays", and yet the recognition of specific non-Christmas holidays such as Kwanzaa has risen in general.
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
You asked for an explanation.

Rhetorical question . . . I'm smarter than some give credit.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
Quoting SATX (Reply 28):
Great explanation. Too bad you're talking to a brick wall with a gun. Big grin

Thanks. Apparently so...

  

Pot Kettle Black Next?

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
children in school are not allowed to say what they want anyway

Including MERRY CHRISTMAS! Which was the official policy of Sand Lake Elementary School in 2004 (before my daughter moved to Iowa). Officially, it was Happy Holidays. That is bullshit. She was 9, it can be Christmas for a 9 year old. Therein lies my contention that being PC has gone way beyond anything comprehensible.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
The TV is covered with Christmas carols, decorations, services, etc. etc. from about Thanksgiving on. What the hell are you talking about

Hell man, I'm not talking about Christmas shows and the like - how about the Networks . . . they don't throw up a Merry Christmas Screensaver (whatever the hell they're called), nope - it's Happy Holidays.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
So why can't teachers also instill some awareness of other ways in which children might be insulting their peers?

Let me decide whether my daughter's being insulting. Not the teacher. Some of the loonie toons teachers (like the Bunny Hugger nut job in her 4th grade class) at some of these Anchorage Schools are exactly the type I do NOT wanting teaching values to my child - they need to stick to Reading, Writing and 'Rithmatic . . . otherwise they're wrong. It's my job to instill values in my child, not theirs. Period.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
You can sit in the pub and complain about "Pakis" and "niggers" all you want

And that has nothing to do with Political Correctness, it has everthing to do with being disrespectful . . . in a big way . . . and being a racist bastard. The two are different tacks entirely.


Edit: Typos

[Edited 2006-05-01 12:50:23]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
gkirk
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 36):
You can sit in the pub and complain about "Pakis" and "niggers" all you want.

You see, we don't call people "Pakis" or "Niggers" here, that's just racist, not politically correct, so why you're going down that way I have no idea.
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777236ER
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:26 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 29):
I should be allowed to say what I want, or celebrate what I want, without fear of offending other people.

Do you even read what you write? Are you suggesting that people don't have a right to be offended by what you say?

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 32):
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. People should not tell other people what to say.

And yet you tell people they shouldn't be offended by anything you say!

Perhaps what you meant to say is you don't mind if you offend other people.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 39):
You see, we don't call people "Pakis" or "Niggers" here, that's just racist, not politically correct, so why you're going down that way I have no idea.

But 'we' used to, and it was political correctness that stopped it happening. If you don't mind offending people (which is what you probably meant originally, though it's anyone's guess), then why does it matter to you if something is racist, sexist, homophobic etc?
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n229nw
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:27 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 39):
You see, we don't call people "Pakis" or "Niggers" here

Thanks to politial correctness, people don't do it publically anymore and that is good. On the other hand, recently right here on A.net there was a poster defending the right of two fans at a football match to make monkey signs and shout "nigger" because they were "just protesting against the PC loonies." So if you can choose exaggerated examples, so can I.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):

Well, I don't really agree with you fully. But that is an actual argument; and I don't think anyone is censoring arguments that are well-presented like that. People are disagreeing, but that is different.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 37):
I think what ANCFlyer is saying is that schools and corporations have been phasing out the use of terms such as "Merry Christmas" in favor of "Happy Holidays", and yet the recognition of specific non-Christmas holidays such as Kwanzaa has risen in general.

Again, "recognition" of specific holidays hurts no one. None of these other specific holidays is used for single greetings on television or for store sale names, etc. So, again, when you need a two-word greeting or name, what is wrong with "holidays"?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
Hell man, I'm not talking about Christmas shows and the like - how about the Networks . . . they don't throw up a Merry Christmas Screensaver (whatever the hell they're called), nope - it's Happy Holidays.

Christmas shows still outnumber other holiday shows by a huge margin. That's fine. No one is complaining...there is a huge Christian majority in this country, so why not? On the other hand, why should they throw up a "Merry Christmas" screensaver? What is one good reason why it shouldn't say happy holidays, so everyone is including.

By the way, I frankly don't personally give a crap about this issue. What I object to is people picking on non-issues like this to undermine the whole idea of PC, so they can go on being chauvinistic jerks whining about how the majority they are part of is so persecuted.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
Let me decide whether my daughter's being insulting. Not the teacher.



You may be a good responsible parent, but many aren't. Sometimes teachers do have to discipline children or make them think about issues their parents aren't raising.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
Which was the official policy of Sand Lake Elementary School in 2004 (before my daughter moved to Iowa). Officially, it was Happy Holidays. That is bullshit. She was 9, it can be Christmas for a 9 year old.

Was it official policy that the school did not call say Merry Christmas, or that your daughter was not allowed to say it? There is a big difference, for the reasons I stated above. If the latter, then, yes, I agree something is wrong there. But I doubt that somehow. A 9-year-old has a right to Christmas at home, not necessariy in school.

Look people, I'm not saying politcal correctness as such is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is complicated and often flawed in how people apply it. But instead of ranting against the whole idea, debate it and fix it. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Edited 2006-05-01 13:42:40]
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 41):
Thanks to politial correctness, people don't do it publically anymore and that is good.

Thanks to political correctness, you probably will get people saying Pakis and Niggers. Just watch some Hollywood films, and you'll regularly hear black actors calling other black actors "niggers". Now, how is this not racist?
I'm not trying to justify it, but just asking a simple question.
Political correctness won't stop racism, anti-racism programs can help however.
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:36 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 41):
So, again, when you need a two-word greeting or name, what is wrong with "holidays"?

Absolutely nothing at all . . . as long as it's not mandatory. If I feel like saying Merry Christmas, then it should be okay. In many corporate worlds this day in age, it's frowned upon - officially. But you can damn sure say Happy Kwaanza and Happy Hanukah without thinking twice. PC run amok . . .

Quoting N229NW (Reply 41):
Was it official policy that the school did not call say Merry Christmas

 checkmark  The kids were instructed to say Happy Holidays. And if they said Merry Christmas, they were corrected.

Furthermore, there was a Winter Holiday party, as opposed to a Christmas Party, no gifts or cards exchanged as in the past. No singing of carols, etc. Interestingly, there was a menorah, but no Christmas Tree.  irked  Again, PC run amok.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 41):
A 9-year-old has a right to Christmas at home, not necessariy in school.

While I disagree - I'll play along. Lets say that's the case. I would submit, that then the Jewish child has no right the anything Hanukah at school; and those that celebrate Kwaanza have no rights to that at school. If we're going to go off the damned deep end, we might as well do it all the way. Would you not agree?
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satx
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:37 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 42):
Thanks to political correctness, you probably will get people saying Pakis and Niggers.

&

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 42):
Political correctness won't stop racism, anti-racism programs can help however.

Wow, do you even know what you're talking about anymore? I can't even tell what the heck you're trying to say here. Your line of reasoning is just so far off the page that it's all coming out like gibberish to me.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 41):
Well, I don't really agree with you fully. But that is an actual argument; and I don't think anyone is censoring arguments that are well-presented like that. People are disagreeing, but that is different.

And on that, we can agree.  Smile

Quoting N229NW (Reply 41):
Again, "recognition" of specific holidays hurts no one. None of these other specific holidays is used for single greetings on television or for store sale names, etc. So, again, when you need a two-word greeting or name, what is wrong with "holidays"?

My claim would be that taking away from a specific Christmas reference in order to give to a more generalized sentiment represents a decision to equalize that which is not necessarily equal. "Holidays" means nothing in particular; one can have a holiday based on nothing more than fun or recreation. But the recognition of Christmas is far more than that; Christmas represents an entire congeries of ethical, moral, historical and other ideas for which a holiday is given to celebrate. Thus, emptying a greeting of its Christmas content represents a surrender of substance to mere form.

It may be argued that businesses have no right to impose specific advocacy of any particular set of beliefs and that they should not impose a specific greeting when a more generalized one will do. But I disagree with that position. Business have every right -- and indeed, an obligation -- to act ethically, as well legally. And public schools should take care to maintain and take note of positive traditions that have guided Americans for generation after generation. Thus, the elimination of greetings such as "Merry Christmas" in favor of generic ones like "Happy Holidays" represents an abdication of sorts, and one that is justified by nothing more than a desire to pander to the lowest common denominator.

There may be rightful apologies in favor of political correctness on many fronts, but the need to appeal to everyone, when there is justification not to, is not one of its best defenses.
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gkirk
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 44):
Wow, do you even know what you're talking about anymore? I can't even tell what the heck you're trying to say here. Your line of reasoning is just so far off the page that it's all coming out like gibberish to me.

Lets try that again then  Wink

Why N229NW is saying this:

Quoting N229NW (Reply 41):
Thanks to politial correctness, people don't do it publically anymore and that is good.

I have no idea...
Political Correctness is the reason for racism in public dropping? I doubt it. I think it's more down to the fact that people are becoming more respectful about other people's belief/colour rather than PC setting in.
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n229nw
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:48 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 42):
Thanks to political correctness, you probably will get people saying Pakis and Niggers.

That is the worst excuse I have ever heard. You are telling me these people weren't racist to begin with, that only people telling them not to say racist things is what made them racist?! Congratulations, I think there is a job opening for you at the Daily Mail.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 42):
Political correctness won't stop racism, anti-racism programs can help however.

Anti-racism programs ARE political correctness. Nice try though.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43):
The kids were instructed to say Happy Holidays. And if they said Merry Christmas, they were corrected...Interestingly, there was a menorah, but no Christmas Tree.

I have no problem with a teacher pointing out that happy holidays is more inclusive than Merry Christmas. In fact, I think it should be pointed out. If what you are reporting went beyond this and you are not exaggerating, then sure, criticize that school system for this. But it doesn't mean that the idea of political correctness is inherently evil and should be thrown out.

[Edited 2006-05-01 13:54:29]
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777236ER
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 42):
Thanks to political correctness, you probably will get people saying Pakis and Niggers. Just watch some Hollywood films, and you'll regularly hear black actors calling other black actors "niggers". Now, how is this not racist?
I'm not trying to justify it, but just asking a simple question.
Political correctness won't stop racism, anti-racism programs can help however.

Context is everything. A white person calling a black person 'a nigger' isn't insulting in some circumstances. You mean 'programmes', not 'programs', by the way.

Political correctness isn't a tangible thing. It's a feeling in society towards what is acceptable. Political correctness is a result of racist attitudes in society declining, not the cause of it.
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RE: I'm Sick Of Anti-politcal-correctness Backlash

Mon May 01, 2006 9:06 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 48):
A white person calling a black person 'a nigger' isn't insulting in some circumstances.

I do believe you would find the majority of black folks in the States would disagree with you. Of course, it is ok for them to call each other that and call us Crackers but that's ok in their eyes.
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