luisca
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Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 3:26 am

Quote:
President Evo Morales nationalized Bolivia's natural gas industry and oil Monday, ordering foreign energy companies to send their supplies to a state company for sales and industrialization.

Source AP.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...NWCN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Chilling, we all new it was coming, but so fast, I just hope Santa Cruz can finally gain independance from Bolivia and carve themselves a better future free from the stupidity that governs in La Paz.
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Derico
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 3:34 am

It's braking news in Argentina. This affects Repsol-YPF (considered Spanish but it's also largely an Argentine company), and some minor Argentine and foreign oil drillers, plus Petrobras, BP and Total.

All oil production from those companies must immediately be turned over to the government for industrialization, refining, and commercialization. Bolivia's government will also take a majority stake in the stocks of all companies or they will be forced to leave in 180. Those companies that earn over 100 million dollars will only keep 18% of the profits, the remainer will go to the state.

Bolivian military forces have now taken control of the oil fields in the country.
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Pyrex
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 3:48 am

Mossadeq anyone?  stirthepot 

Admittedly Evo Morales is a twat (although an elected one) that play right into the hands of Chavez and co. ...

... on the other hand, having control over their natural resources is someone every country has the right to do (although there are less drastic ways than this). If the companies that made the investments are somehow compensated for them I can't really point any fingers, though I don't see that happening...
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Falcon84
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 3:49 am

Ah, yes, Socialism is alive and well in the southern end of the America's, I see.

Bolivia and Argentina, going back to a failed system of economics. Yippie for them.  rotfl 
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satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 4:15 am

Oh, the poor oil and gas industry. Boo hoo. Too bad. Tough luck.  Big grin
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MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 4:30 am

I was just about to post the same thing. More from el comercio:

http://www.elcomercioperu.com.pe/Edi.../2006-05-01/onlPortada0498539.html

It's sad but honestly, what can you do? Peru has had almost a decade of decent growth and they piss it away by voting for Alan bloody Garcia and Ollanta Humala.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 5):
Oh, the poor oil and gas industry. Boo hoo. Too bad. Tough luck.

They will do just fine. It's the Bolivians that will be the victims in the end with more poverty and social decay than when the mean-ol' gas companies were in charge of the oil extraction/production, in spite of the fact that every Bolivian will now be an employee of the state oil and gas company.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Scotty
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Luisca (Thread starter):
Quote:
President Evo Morales nationalized Bolivia's natural gas industry and oil Monday, ordering foreign energy companies to send their supplies to a state company for sales and industrialization.

Watch out. Here comes Sir Anthony Eden and the British Army just itching for a re-run of the Suez Crisis!
 
NoUFO
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 5:05 am

To get this straight: I have very little sympathies for Evo Morales, but against the background that Bolivia is one oil-rich nation and at the same time the poorest country in the New World, something has to be done.

Again, Morales' strong pro-Cuba and anti-American course and nationalizing Bolivia's oil and gas industry is most probably wrong, but it should first and foremost be the population that benefits from Bolivia's natural resources, not international companies.
Call that "compassionate capitalism" if you want.
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satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 5:14 am

Isn't he just doing exactly what he claimed he would do when running as a candidate? So why all the sudden 'surprise'?

Mr Morales swept to victory as Bolivia's first indigenous president in January elections after vowing to "recover" the country's natural resources by renationalising them.

However, he has shown signs of pragmatism since coming to office, and has held friendly meetings with several oil bosses. On a visit to Brazil in January he said renationalising the industry would not mean expelling foreign companies or expropriating foreign property. "Foreign companies have every right to recover investments and make profits, but profits should be balanced," he told a press conference at the time.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4963348.stm
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MDorBust
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
Call that "compassionate capitalism" if you want.

No compassionate capitalism would be if the corporations involved decided of their own volition to help improve the local situation.

This is socialism, pure and simple.

What's to happen to the people of Bolivia when the corporations decide that the new burdens of doing buisness there out weigh the benefits and move shop somewhere else?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Falcon84
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 8):
Perhaps not, but why did you put Argentina with Evo Morales when none of that has happened? No industries have been nationalized in Argentina... No alliance with Cuba... Why would you suggest that by lumping one with the other?

Argentina, Bolivia and Cuba are joining in some kind of economic alliance. Read it somwhere over the weekend. And trust me, it's only a matter of time till Fidel Jr. nationalizes industries in Argentina. He's a socialist, pure and simple. Socialism is a failed system.
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Derico
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Argentina, Bolivia and Cuba are joining in some kind of economic alliance. Read it somwhere over the weekend. And trust me, it's only a matter of time till Fidel Jr. nationalizes industries in Argentina. He's a socialist, pure and simple. Socialism is a failed system.

One can never say never but this is very unlikely.

There is absolutely no ecomomic alliance with Cuba. Again (and this is not the first time it's happened here), you are confusing Argentina with Venezuela  redflag   redflag   redflag , which did announce a new economic alliance between Cuba, Venezuela and Bolivia...

Hate to say this, but get your countries straight, Falcon.  redflag 
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Falcon84
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
There is absolutely no ecomomic alliance with Cuba. Again (and this is not the first time it's happened here), you are confusing Argentina with Venezuela , which did announce a new economic alliance between Cuba, Venezuela and Bolivia...

Hate to say this, but get your countries straight, Falcon.

Uh, would you like some crow with your filling of Humble Pie, Derico?

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=121119
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):

What's to happen to the people of Bolivia when the corporations decide that the new burdens of doing buisness there out weigh the benefits and move shop somewhere else?

Hm. Only time will tell. The people didn't seem to be benefitting from their resources as it is, so maybe it stands a chance of getting at least a little better. Much of the Middle East was built up through the sale of natural resources. Maybe the same can be done for Bolivia, instead of letting it turn out like the oil-rich African countries that seem to give up an awful lot and yet don't seem to benefit much at all in return.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Socialism is a failed system.

So was the previous version of Argentina. They hit rock bottom before our very eyes. I watched it on TV. Why wasn't that considered a 'failed system'?
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MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
The people didn't seem to be benefitting from their resources as it is, so maybe it stands a chance of getting at least a little better.

This has happened time and time again in Latin America, and it always fails, and the poor are always the hardest hit and the worst off since they can't leave.

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
They hit rock bottom before our very eyes

Which time?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Derico
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):

WHERE is Argentina in that entire link???????? All I see is Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia...

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
So was the previous version of Argentina. They hit rock bottom before our very eyes. I watched it on TV. Why wasn't that considered a 'failed system'?

No no no, that was a 30 year messy reestructuring of the country with some bad policies to boot, with nothing to do with socialism or capitalism. Please I would ask all of you to not put examples of processes in a country that is far more complex than you guys need to defend your views.

Also, this is not 2001. It's almost 2007... Things have changed dramatically.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):

This has happened time and time again in Latin America, and it always fails, and the poor are always the hardest hit and the worst off since they can't leave.

If they were already in bad shape, maybe it's time for a change. Seems hard to see how it can get that much worse.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Which time?

I was referring to when they defaulted on their dept.
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NoUFO
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
This is socialism, pure and simple.

I agree, therefore I feel repelled by Morales' course.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
No compassionate capitalism would be if the corporations involved decided of their own volition to help improve the local situation.

Or if Morales would find a way to improve the situation without nationalizing the oil industry, i.e. by charging a more reasonable tax for each barrel. The money could then be spent for education, infrastucture or food subsidies. Waiting for companies to voluntarily show some compassion is a bit naive.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
Seems hard to see how it can get that much worse.

And yet every Morales/Chavez/Garcia/etc populist manages to do just that--promise the world to the people and deliver less than nothing other than maybe a huge bill ten years down the line.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
luisca
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):

This has happened time and time again in Latin America, and it always fails, and the poor are always the hardest hit and the worst off since they can't leave.

If they were already in bad shape, maybe it's time for a change. Seems hard to see how it can get that much worse.

It can get worse, Morales' cronies are gaining more and more power, they are trowing out companies that generate employment and revenue in Bolivia, investment is way down and will now almost certainly disappear; who wants to invest in Bolivia with the possibility of the government taking it all away with no compensation. Also he is giving more and more power to indigenous clans that are causing a de stabilization of the country, in 2 years Bolivia will be a country of tribes.

If the 60% indigenous population want to live like 10th century Aborigines be my guest, but the rest of the country doesn't have to be forced into it. Santa Cruz, Bolivia's most productive province, wants full Independence from Bolivia and have threatened to do it if Evo Implemented a Marxist government, which it seems he will be doing soon.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:23 am

Well, I certainly agree that the middle and upper class won't be happy about this. Still, I'm sure they can take care of themselves. No need to cry over them.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
luisca
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
There is absolutely no ecomomic alliance with Cuba. Again (and this is not the first time it's happened here), you are confusing Argentina with Venezuela , which did announce a new economic alliance between Cuba, Venezuela and Bolivia...

Hate to say this, but get your countries straight, Falcon.

Uh, would you like some crow with your filling of Humble Pie, Derico?

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp...21119

Falcon84, its been a while since I have bee here in NonAv but you are still the same jerk who doesn't even check what he says before he says it. In that article their is no mention or Argentina in any pact, the only mentioning of the word Argentina is about a summit held their were ALL AMERICAN (THE CONTINENT) COUNTRIES Participated, in that summit CHAVEZ (VENEZUELA) said his usual stupid Anti US rant. Argentina has no ties to this pact.

I suggest you take a first grade reading comprehension courses and a second grade Geography lesson wouldn't be to bad either.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
Still, I'm sure they can take care of themselves.

Yeah, they'll go away because they can, and they'll take their money with them. Companies will no longer want to invest in Bolivia because they know the government will just steal their property, the wealthy have been scared out of staying in Bolivia so they are no longer spending money there nor remitting money to family members, so what's left? A bunch of poor people and decrepit ancient state run industries that are as inefficient as they are expensive to run. Where is the upside?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Derico
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 20):
If the 60% indigenous population want to live like 10th century Aborigines be my guest, but the rest of the country doesn't have to be forced into it. Santa Cruz, Bolivia's most productive province, wants full Independence from Bolivia and have threatened to do it if Evo Implemented a Marxist government, which it seems he will be doing soon.

Do you think this will happen? A separatist movement in Santa Cruz. I had always heard the region of Tarija had some leanings towards secession from Bolivia and joining Argentina, or at least many of the people there did...

Falcon, I think you did confuse Argentina with Venezuela. It is Venezuela, Cuba, and Bolivia that signed a new economic pact, not Argentina, Cuba and Bolivia.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
andessmf
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 8):

Again, Morales' strong pro-Cuba and anti-American

Hate to say this, but the only 'American' oil companies involved are Brazilian and Argentinian, so this is a different anti-americanism.

Quoting SATX (Reply 9):
On a visit to Brazil in January he said renationalising the industry would not mean expelling foreign companies or expropriating foreign property.

No it wouldnt mean that, but these companies might certainly find it easier to leave rather than stay.

Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
Still, I'm sure they can take care of themselves. No need to cry over them.

Ah, SATX, think about this? What happens if the upper and middle class leave Bolivia (because they can leave)? Who is then left behind to run the economy? In Zimbawbe, the upper and middle class were forced to leave, and Zimbawbe has what to show for it? More misery. You might not cry for those rich and middle class, but others in Bolivia eventually will.

But then again, Morales might pull a Chavez and create more poverty, certainly a statistic to be proud of.
 
rootsair
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Falcon13 (Reply 14):
Socialism is a failed system.

Then explain me why half of the Swiss population vote left winged and the country is well off.

tankfully, natural resources are going back to the state. Its incredible to see a county with such resources and so poor...
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 25):
In Zimbawbe, the upper and middle class were forced to leave, and Zimbawbe has what to show for it? More misery.

Wow, you just jumped off the deep end there. That's like comparing Bush to Hitler or something. Let's try to keep this within the realm of plausibility based on what we've seen so far. There's no need to take our views to the absolute extremes just yet.  Smile

Most countries didn't start out rich, they had to make their money somehow. We've already seen how natural resources can help when used properly. Maybe if the old system wasn't working it's time for a new one. I'll withold my judgement for now.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 26):
Then explain me why half of the Swiss population vote left winged and the country is well off.

All of Europe is, and they're all headed for a very nasty reality if they don't balance their checkbook real soon and/or start making like good Catholics and reproducing like bunnies.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
andessmf
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 27):

OK, agreed, Zimbawbe is an extreme example. But what history has sometimes shown is that the nationalized industry often benefits the cronies of the current president, not the whole population. Witness Mexico with Pemex. You would have thought that with the current oil prices, less people would want to migrate to the US, but that is not quite the case.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 25):
Hate to say this, but the only 'American' oil companies involved are Brazilian and Argentinian, so this is a different anti-americanism.

To quote Spiegel Online:

"The countries (Bolivia and Venezuela), however, agree on their stance concerning the USA. Together with Cuba's head of state, Fidel Castro, Venezuela's President Chavez and Morales concluded a trade agreement on Saturday, expressively directed against the USA. The contract the trio signed, opposes to US plans on a Pan-American free trade area."

"Einig sind sich die Staaten dagegen in ihrer Haltung gegenueber den USA. Gemeinsam mit Kubas Staatschef Fidel Castro schlossen Venezuelas Praesident Chavez und Morales am Samstag ein ausdruecklich gegen die USA gerichtetes Handelsabkommen. Der von dem Trio unterzeichnete Vertrag richtet sich gegen die US-Plaene fuer eine panamerikanische Freihandelszone."

[Edited 2006-05-01 23:56:06]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 27):
That's like comparing Bush to Hitler or something

I disagree. I personally believe that full blown free trade combined with free markets and sound and predictable legal institutions can fix poverty just about anywhere on earth. On the other end, people like Morales, Chavez, and Mugabe believe that that is exactly what is causing the problem. They are different levels of crazy, but they all feed off of the same "companies are bad, trade is bad, wealthy people must be punished" sentiment. Mugabe is a perfect example of what will happen if Morales and Chavez carry their reforms to their (il)logical end.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Falcon84
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 16):
WHERE is Argentina in that entire link???????? All I see is Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia...

My mistake on that one. I did mean Venezuela, and don't hae a clue why I put in Argentina. Just a slip of the fingers. Sorry bout that Derico.  Smile

Quoting Luisca (Reply 22):
Falcon84, its been a while since I have bee here in NonAv but you are still the same jerk who doesn't even check what he says before he says it.

Stick it friend. I apologized to Derico. I owe you nothing.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 22):
I suggest you take a first grade reading comprehension courses and a second grade Geography lesson wouldn't be to bad either.

I suggest that you realize that sometime people make errors, and to chill out a little, and stop acting like a crybaby over it. Think you can do that, dude? I didn't think so.

You're the kind of person who makes me glad I'm taking Paxil right now.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Derico
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 29):
OK, agreed, Zimbawbe is an extreme example. But what history has sometimes shown is that the nationalized industry often benefits the cronies of the current president, not the whole population. Witness Mexico with Pemex. You would have thought that with the current oil prices, less people would want to migrate to the US, but that is not quite the case.

That would not change at all if Pemex was owned by Exxon Mobil, one must say.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
andessmf
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 30):
Fidel Castro, Venezuela's President Chavez and Morales concluded a trade agreement on Saturday expressively directed against the USA

That makes sound economic policy... sarcastic 

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):

Thank you for a better explanation.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
Or if Morales would find a way to improve the situation without nationalizing the oil industry, i.e. by charging a more reasonable tax for each barrel. The money could then be spent for education, infrastucture or food subsidies. Waiting for companies to voluntarily show some compassion is a bit naive.

He could go an even better route. Put in place large increases in industrial taxes, then offer tax exemptions to companies that undertake civic improvement projects.

That way both sides win. The corporations can get their PR machines to churn out adds about how they "give back to the community" while the government can say they punish corporations who don't take responsibility for helping improve the nation.

Any corporation being run by competent management is already interested in improving their workers living conditions to a certain extent. After all, happy workers truly are better and safer workers. Some companies do need some nudging though.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 33):
That would not change at all if Pemex was owned by Exxon Mobil, one must say.

Probably somewhat true but ExxonMobil, or any publicly traded company is much more transparent and answers to many more people and groups than any government owned entity.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Derico
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
Probably somewhat true but ExxonMobil, or any publicly traded company is much more transparent and answers to many more people and groups than any government owned entity.

That could be true if the overseeing bodies were fair and uncorruptable, but in Latin America that is still mostly a fantasy. And while in the past the United States was a model for capitalist economics with sound government oversight, I think today it's just no longer so to some extent, since an oligarchy of rich corporations and special interests (left and right) now dictate to significant levels political agendas there.

I really don't see an example in the world tha today really works. Europe has it's problems, so does Asia, etc, etc. The world is almost at a crossroads searching for a new political/economic system that will go beyond creating wealth (capitalism), piece of mind (socialism), or a guaranteed level of dignity(communism), and provide not only all three of them to all people but at the same time fullfilling the inner potentials of all human beings.

I almost feel like the world is at a stage like that of the end of the Serfdom economy and Feudalism of the Middle Ages (which at that time was seen as the best system manking could device), and the advent of free market economics and liberalism. Of course still waiting for an even better system to evolve (which I think in 100-200 years it will).

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
My mistake on that one. I did mean Venezuela, and don't hae a clue why I put in Argentina. Just a slip of the fingers. Sorry bout that Derico.

No problem, but I admit that when you posted the link and insisted on the point I was starting to wonder about your sanity... Embarrassment  whiteflag 
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MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 37):
That could be true if the overseeing bodies were fair and uncorruptable, but in Latin America that is still mostly a fantasy.

...true but I doubt that Pemex has the same outside pressure on it that ExxonMobil does. I doubt the folks at Greenpeace even know what a Pemex is, but they are putting pressure on Exxon anywhere and any way they can.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 4:03 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
All of Europe is, and they're all headed for a very nasty reality if they don't balance their checkbook real soon

pot calling kettle black? ever seen the debt figures of the United States? do you know where the United States rates in terms of household savings rate (of the "western nations") ? Let me give you a hint ......it ain't first... no 
"Up the Irons!"
 
satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:24 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
I personally believe that full blown free trade combined with free markets and sound and predictable legal institutions can fix poverty just about anywhere on earth.

And when it doesn't? Then what?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Mugabe is a perfect example of what will happen if Morales and Chavez carry their reforms to their (il)logical end.

When you draw such far-reaching conclusions like this you really lose me.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
andessmf
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 40):
And when it doesn't? Then what?

It has always worked, the trick is the 'predictable legal institutions' clause, which means little or no corruption. Where capitalism has been tried and not worked, the root cause is typically the high level of corruption of the individuals in charge.

Quoting SATX (Reply 40):

When you draw such far-reaching conclusions like this you really lose me

"in 2004 the monthly magazine New African had its readers vote for the "100 greatest Africans" last year, Mugabe won a third-place finish, topped only by Nelson Mandela and Ghanaian independence hero Kwame Nkrumah. In addition, in December 2005, Kenneth Kaunda, Zambia's former long-time leader, voiced support for Mugabe, stating that the Zimbabwean president "would pull through because he enjoyed the support of ordinary Zimbabweans who were punished for claiming back their land." Mugabe's supporters tend to dismiss much of the criticism as being racially motivated, and characterize it as being little more than the bitter remarks of those who have been disadvantaged by his policies."

See, here we have Morales and Chavez being called heroes by their supporters, at the same time that their policies are harming their supporters.
 
satx
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 41):
Where capitalism has been tried and not worked, the root cause is typically the high level of corruption of the individuals in charge.

Is this not also true where socialism has failed?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
ltbewr
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 8:55 pm

If I am correct, there are groups of citizens of Bolavia have lawsuits going against American companies for pollution from natural gas development. This is nothing new. Mexico did this in the 1920's/1930's and many other countries since then.
I wonder how long it will be before President Bush sends in troops to take back those wells for the American investors.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15327
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Tue May 02, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 39):
pot calling kettle black? ever seen the debt figures of the United States?

It's not the debt that's the problem. Europe will one day have to reconcile the fact that it has more people drawing from the state coffers than it does putting money into the state. Either the benefits will have to be reduced (and that goes over like a lead baloon), taxes will have to be raised (same), or people will have to start having babies like it's their job.

Quoting SATX (Reply 40):
And when it doesn't? Then what?

I have never seen an instance where it "doesn't work", it's rarely allowed to work because the "losers" are always louder than the "winners", even though the "losers" are always a tiny minority.

Quoting SATX (Reply 40):
When you draw such far-reaching conclusions like this you really lose me.

They're all the same guy to differing degrees: punish the wealthy, take from the rich give to the poor, business is bad, trade is bad...it all sounds very noble especially to the uneducated voter but the law of unintended consequences always wins in the end and the poor end up poorer.

[Edited 2006-05-02 16:08:30]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
andessmf
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Wed May 03, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 42):
Is this not also true where socialism has failed?

That is true.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Wed May 03, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
It's not the debt that's the problem. Europe will one day have to reconcile the fact that it has more people drawing from the state coffers than it does putting money into the state. Either the benefits will have to be reduced (and that goes over like a lead baloon), taxes will have to be raised (same), or people will have to start having babies like it's their job.

my point was MaverickM11, that we as a nation aren't too far from that either...we save no money, have massive amounts of debt, have tapped our houses as an "ATM" machine .......thus paying off unsecured debt with secured debt-not a bright idea-yes, it was an intelligent decision for a few to swap high-interest credit cards payments with low interest mortgage payments..but the problem is people will once again rack up their credit card bills..then what?
"Up the Irons!"
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Wed May 03, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 46):
that we as a nation aren't too far from that either...we save no money, have massive amounts of debt, have tapped our houses as an "ATM" machine

That is not public policy though, that is irresponsible consumer decision making.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
NoUFO
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Wed May 03, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 35):
Put in place large increases in industrial taxes, then offer tax exemptions to companies that undertake civic improvement projects.

The problem would be the usual: General industrial taxes make the production of goods more expensive and are basically an invitation to outsource production to other countries.

Larger enterprises could also keep the production in Bolivia and at the same time found an investment company in a country with low taxes. This investment company would than provide funds neccessary for development and/or production in Bolivia and in return swallow vast amounts of the net income - after expenditures have been deducted from tax in Bolivia. Thus, the company would in fact not pay taxes in Bolivia.

Other (that is: smaller) companies would pass the higher taxes on the price if the market allows them to do. What was meant to be an industrial tax would then turn into a second VAT, a consumer tax. And if the market is not ready for higher prices, many of those companies will simply go bancrupt or leave the country.

It is against this background that I expect industrial taxes to be replaxed with a higher VAT. There have been interesting discussions around that topic lately in at least two countries, Germany and the USA.

Now oil is a slightly different thing than the production of i.e. housewares or cars. Bolivian oil is on Bolivian soil and a higher petro tax will most likely not scare Exxon & Co away. The US American market is nearby, there's no expensive Suez Canal to pass through and so on. With the decrease of oil resources, time is playing into the hands of the Bolivian government anyway.
I support the right to arm bears
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Boliva Nationalizes Oil And Gas Industry!

Wed May 03, 2006 5:49 am

E pur si muove -Galileo

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