deltagator
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Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 10:40 am

Well, NBC is doing the entrapment thing with the child porn pervs again on the tube right now. When will these idiotic perverts ever learn? I really am amused by the ones that said they saw the previous busts on TV but still show up and think it isn't going to happen to them. There really are some sick bastards out there. I'd say lock up your daughters but some of the morons like the gay variety of sex as well and one just said he would have been honored to take the virginity of one of the kids. Yuck!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032600/
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CXA330300
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 10:56 am

Isn't it technically illegal for Dateline to show this on any television broadcast, as it technically promotes an illegal act?
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redngold
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
Well, NBC is doing the entrapment thing

Careful there... It's not "entrapment" in a legal sense because nobody is forcing these men to do what they're doing. Nobody is saying "come to this house or we'll hurt you or arrest you." They are doing this of their own free will.

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
it technically promotes an illegal act

No more than any other sting operation run by a law enforcement agency. They are working together with local officials.
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ren41
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Isn't it technically illegal for Dateline to show this on any television broadcast, as it technically promotes an illegal act?

The people are arrested the second they leave the house. These reports are done in conjunction with police investigations. They are not promoting sex with underage kids at all.

R41
 
deltagator
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:05 am

I'm sure it has all been vetted by the lawyers. The lawyers and cops on here can better explain the entrapment thing but I'm sure it is all on the up and up. Personally I say good riddance to bad rubbish with these perverts.
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deltagator
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 2):
Careful there... It's not "entrapment" in a legal sense because nobody is forcing these men to do what they're doing.

I know. It seems like entrapment but I knew someone would be able to explain it a little better than I could. I heard that the word started getting around what was going on so some of the pervs didn't show up.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
dc10s4ever
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:11 am

Personally I hope each and every one of these pervs get thrown in jail for the rest of their lives. They have scarred a child for life, so they should pay with their life.
 
deltagator
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 6):
They have scarred a child for life

Not all of them, or so they say. A few of them claim to this time being their first. They use folks that are at least legal age to chat with them online and draw them in. They still need to be locked up though.

There was one tonight that was going to be going to prison in a couple of days for the same thing he was trying to do as "one for the road" before he went in the hoosegow. As a strange twist the guy was almost a midget. I give him a week in prison.
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Newark777
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:22 am

Entrapment would be if the police actively pursued the men, trying to get them to commit crimes. If the police are contacted first by the predators, there is nothing wrong with it. It's the same as all the drug and prostitution busts you see on Cops. Basically it is when the cops induce the crime, not the criminals.

Harry
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luv2fly
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:24 am

Myself I feel it is all for ratings.
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planespotting
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 2):
Nobody is saying "come to this house or we'll hurt you or arrest you."

That is coercion, not entrapment. Entrapment is illegal because it is more or less defined as giving a normal person an opportunity to commit a crime that he or she would not commit under usual or normal circumstances.

For instance, an undercover policeman cannot seek out a homeless man, offer to give him money to commit a crime, and then arrest him for the attempt to commit the crime. Also, an undercover policeman or woman cannot offer anyone sex for hire services. If this was allowed, undercover cops could stand on the corner and offer $5 blowjobs all day long and arrest every poor schmuck who walked by.

(i would imagine it would be difficult for the lay-singleman to turn down a $5 blowjob from a normal, attractive looking woman - or man depending on how he swings...).

They can, however, act the role as hookers and stand on a corner dressed in hooker garb and arrest the men who solicit them.
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itsjustme
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
I know. It seems like entrapment but I knew someone would be able to explain it a little better than I could.

Nope, no entrapment. At least not when the suspect shows up at the prearranged meeting place. The entrapment, if any, would occur during the dialogue between the "minor" and the "suspect". But, from everything I have seen on the previous Dateline specials of this type, the suspect is well aware he is communicating with and arranging to meet with a minor. Technically, he could be arrested as soon as he enters the property where the meeting was scheduled to take place.
 
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yowza
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 1:00 pm

I saw a doc on child molestors a week or so ago up here in Canada and I wanted to vomit. It was disgusting what some of these guys thought and how they behaved. This one repeat offender said "I don't pursue them, the come after me. They love me, they see what a loving man I am." Nasty. Sick bastard should be sentenced to a life of hard labour.

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planespotting
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 12):
I saw a doc on child molestors a week or so ago up here in Canada and I wanted to vomit. It was disgusting what some of these guys thought and how they behaved. This one repeat offender said "I don't pursue them, the come after me. They love me, they see what a loving man I am." Nasty. Sick bastard should be sentenced to a life of hard labour.

Hey. I'm not one to stick up for child-molesters, but clearly these people have some sort of psychological problem that is making them this way. No normal, sane person "of their own free will" would choose to live this sort of lifestyle or think that this was acceptable.

Is it their fault that they have something this awful wrong with them? No. Should they pay for their crimes? yes. Should they be treated differently than a common criminal of a sane mind who commits a crime entirely for profits or emotions sake that is of their own free will? Yes.

Of course, this complicates the situation. However, one should try to stay away from throwing anyone into hard labour camps for life. Gulag's are not part of a civilized society.
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yowza
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 13):
Of course, this complicates the situation. However, one should try to stay away from throwing anyone into hard labour camps for life. Gulag's are not part of a civilized society.

Perhaps not, but this guy should not be able to be out and about until he commits yet another sex crime against a helpless child. Apparently he has gotten away with it every time with minimal punishments and this particular guy lives within sight of a school!! Come on....

YOWza
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
When will these idiotic perverts ever learn?

They won't learn, they're internet child sex predators, and should be caught. These are the people we live amongst, and the more we expose, the better

Quoting Redngold (Reply 2):

Careful there... It's not "entrapment" in a legal sense because nobody is forcing these men to do what they're doing. Nobody is saying "come to this house or we'll hurt you or arrest you." They are doing this of their own free will.

They're intending to meet with a child for sex. If the deviant was to ask "Are you a police officer?", and the officer said "no", that's entrapment.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 9):
Myself I feel it is all for ratings.

Well, if it protects a few more children, than have at it NBC. Information like this needs to get out there.
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omoo
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 2:51 pm

Next Week they are going to show a naked perv, guy who likes cookies and they will be in the Sunshine state.......tune in.....lol
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Newark777
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 15):
If the deviant was to ask "Are you a police officer?", and the officer said "no", that's entrapment.

Officers are able to lie all they want, and it is still not entrapment. If this were the case, prostitution and drug undercover busts would be able to occur.

Harry
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itsjustme
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 15):
If the deviant was to ask "Are you a police officer?", and the officer said "no", that's entrapment.

Incorrect. If said deviant was acting on his own free will and I did not initiate, or entice him to commit the crime, I can lie about who and/or what I am until the cows come home and my arrest will be lawful. Further, if it is proven that the suspect had a predisposition to commit a crime, simply providing him with the opportunity to do so is not entrapment. Simply put: We (police) target an area known to be frequented by drug traffickers. Shithead drug dealer comes up to me, sneaky bastard undercover cop, and says, "Hey, are you a cop?" and I say "No" and he offers to engage me in a narcotics transaction, there is no entrapment there.

I didn't see the latest Dateline episode but I believe in the past, civilian volunteers with no ties to law enforcement were playing the role of the minor. Civilians, who are not acting in concert with law enforcement cannot be guilty of entrapment.

[Edited 2006-05-04 08:28:13]

[Edited 2006-05-04 08:29:33]
 
N1120A
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Isn't it technically illegal for Dateline to show this on any television broadcast, as it technically promotes an illegal act?

No it isn't. First off, they are not promoting an illegal act and even if some ludicrious prosecutor claimed they were, there is no clear and present danger..

Quoting Redngold (Reply 2):
Careful there... It's not "entrapment" in a legal sense because nobody is forcing these men to do what they're doing.



Quoting Newark777 (Reply 17):
Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 15):
If the deviant was to ask "Are you a police officer?", and the officer said "no", that's entrapment.

Officers are able to lie all they want, and it is still not entrapment. If this were the case, prostitution and drug undercover busts would be able to occur.

No, that is untrue. Officers are only allowed to lie when they are trying to get a confession or in some jurisdictions if they have already been solicited as part of a crime.

BTW, since no one here seems to be able to get the definition right, here it is:

A law-enforcement officer's or government agent's inducement of a person to commit a crime, by means of fraud or undue persuasion, in an attempt to later bring a criminal prosecution against that person.

Additionally, the standard in most states is that you have to prove entrapment by showing that but for the fraud or undue persuasion, you would not have committed the crime.

Basically, if a cop posing as a prostitute says to a potential john minding their own business "Hey baby, looking for a date, don't worry, I'm not a cop" and the john takes the bate then, they have a strong case for entrapment. Same if the cop says "you have some crack" the dealer says "no" and the cop says "don't worry, I'm not a cop" and then the sale goes down. If, however the john approaches the cop and asks later, there is an argument against entrapment. This is why smart cops always avoid the cop question.
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itsjustme
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 3:37 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
there is no clear and present danger..

Excellent movie. I thought Harrison Ford nailed it.

By the way....wtf ARE you talking about? Clear and present danger?  confused 
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 8:31 pm

I am all for these shows. Expose these sick bastards, and hope that part of the prison population watches it and recognizes them when they walk through the door. It's not for no reason that child molesters always say they're in for drugs or something similar...
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NIKV69
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 9):
Myself I feel it is all for ratings

Oh it most certaintly is. These news stations have really latched on to the crimes against children thing. It commands many viewers and they are in a way doing a service to the public. In the end though they are bigger whores than the people they cover.
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AirCop
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 9:43 pm

What concern me the most about last nights show was the end, where the judge was releasing these guys with $2,500 bail. Only one guy got a high bail $100,000 because he had already been convicted on another case. Any one from Ohio, know what kind of sentence these people will get after they pled guility?
 
deltagator
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 23):
What concern me the most about last nights show was the end, where the judge was releasing these guys with $2,500 bail.

Yes, quite interesting. Having never had to make bail before I might be wrong but don't they only have to produce 10% of that number to get out? The rest is put up by the bondsman?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 23):
Only one guy got a high bail $100,000 because he had already been convicted on another case.

I liked how the guy had the balls to ask to be released on his recognizance. The judge nipped that one in the bud really quickly. He'll be passed around so much in prison.
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itsjustme
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 22):
In the end though they are bigger whores than the people they cover.

I'm certainly no fan of the media. They can be your best friend one minute and your worst enemy the next (depends what will garnish them the juiciest story). That being said, however, your statement that they are bigger whores than the people they cover is way off the mark. Comparing a pompous ass like Bill O'Reilly for example to some parasite that preys on kids is a bit ridiculous, don't you think? As I said, I'm no fan of the media and people like O'Reilly are just windbags who like hearing themselves talk but he's not molesting our children.
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Thu May 04, 2006 9:53 pm

One thing that I do respect about criminals (well, as much as can be done anyways), is that they have no respect for child molesters. You have all these hardcore criminals, but they don't accept anything related to children.
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N1120A
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Fri May 05, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 20):
By the way....wtf ARE you talking about? Clear and present danger?

The Clear and Present danger test is one of the tests used to determine whether speech is incitement
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planespotting
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Fri May 05, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
The Clear and Present danger test is one of the tests used to determine whether speech is incitement

right on with the CPD Test

Clear and Present Danger Test

SCHENCK v. U.S. , 249 U.S. 47 (1919)

let's be a little less aggressive when we don't understand what someone is talking about...
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itsjustme
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Fri May 05, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 28):
let's be a little less aggressive when we don't understand what someone is talking about..

I am very familiar with the CPD test and it's association with the First Amendment and I completely understood what N1120A was referring to. However, while I have only been involved in several dozen cases where "entrapment" was the contention of the defendant (a fair amount of my career has been in vice-related assignments), the CPD test has never been considered or offered as an element to prove or disprove the existence of entrapment. That's not to say it has never been offered, I am just saying that in my experience, it's never been used as a tool in the defendant's case. Actually, I'd be interested to see an example of case law where it was offered in relation to an entrapment defense.

Further, this same poster made this statement: "Officers are only allowed to lie when they are trying to get a confession or in some jurisdictions if they have already been solicited as part of a crime" which is also incorrect. Just as your statement, "Entrapment is illegal because it is more or less defined as giving a normal person an opportunity to commit a crime that he or she would not commit under usual or normal circumstances" is in correct as well. Simply providing a person, normal or otherwise, with an opportunity to commit a crime does not constitute entrapment. By your definition, by parking a highly targeted model vehicle in an area known for auto theft, which we actually do from time to time, should a "normal person" steal the vehicle, he would have a valid defense of entrapment simply because he was provided with the opportunity to commit auto theft. Incorrect.

As for my "aggressive" response, I have no problem with posters expressing views and opinions in areas they are not familiar with. However, I do take exception to posters who state something as fact when it is not, especially when it pertains to my profession.

[Edited 2006-05-05 00:46:58]
 
planespotting
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Fri May 05, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 29):
Further, this same poster made this statement: "Officers are only allowed to lie when they are trying to get a confession or in some jurisdictions if they have already been solicited as part of a crime" which is also incorrect. Just as your statement, "Entrapment is illegal because it is more or less defined as giving a normal person an opportunity to commit a crime that he or she would not commit under usual or normal circumstances" is in correct as well. Simply providing a person, normal or otherwise, with an opportunity to commit a crime does not constitute entrapment. By your definition, by parking a highly targeted model vehicle in an area known for auto theft, which we actually do from time to time, should a "normal person" steal the vehicle, he would have a valid defense of entrapment simply because he was provided with the opportunity to commit auto theft. Incorrect.

blah blah blah. If you will look at when the poster brought up the CPD Test, he was not referring AT ALL to the theory of entrapment. He was referring to CXA330300's comment about it being illegal for NBC to air this type of programming because it "promotes" a certain type of crime. He correctly stated that it is not a crime to show this material because the broadcast poses no Clear and Present Danger to the health, fitness or security of the US Government. How you got entrapment from that I do not know.

and my example of entrapment was pretty accurate, but, here is someone elses definition:

Quoting findlaw.com:

Entrapment occurs when the government induces a person to commit a crime and then tries to punish the person forcommitting it. However, if a judge or jury believes that a suspect was predisposed to commit the crime anyway, the suspect may be found guilty even if a government agent suggested the crime and helped the defendant to commit it. Entrapment defenses are therefore especially difficult for defendants with prior convictions for the same type of crime.

Your example of parking a nice car in a bad area to induce the cars theft would not be entrapment, as you stated. I should have made clear in my previous definition that you need to provide them with the means, opportunity and ability to commit the crime.

Obviously, as you pointed out, entrapment is not often a viable defense for many defendants, as in many situations they are often predisposed to commiting the crime (indicated by criminal records or other evidence).
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seb146
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Sat May 06, 2006 2:32 am

Before I add my two cents I need to say: these are sick perverts.

1. These people need mental treatment and not jail time. Jail time does nothing except get them off the streets for a period of time. This is a mental disorder.

2. I have been in legal chat rooms and had people talk to me that claimed to be 15/16/17 years old. They talk to me about their problems and they just want someone to understand them blahblahblah..... So, I help them: I tell them to go to their councelor at school or call a counceling center, and if they keep saying they want to talk to me alone, I say: "Fine: Starbucks at noon."

I just don't trust meeting anyone from the internet for any reason. Nothing compares to seeing what you are getting before any words are exchanged. Nothing worse than expecting a 22 year old blonde dude and getting a 55 year old brunette chick.....  Wink

GO CANUCKS!!
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AirframeAS
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Sat May 06, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 6):
They have scarred a child for life

There was no child involved in the sting. It was a total set up. I applaud DatelineNBC for doing this to make parents more aware of the dangers of online chat and child molesting.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 8):
It's the same as all the drug and prostitution busts you see on Cops.

 checkmark 

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 9):
Myself I feel it is all for ratings.

I disagree. Its all about getting parents AWARE of what the dangers are while the child is chatting online.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 15):
They won't learn, they're internet child sex predators, and should be caught.

You can NEVER rehabiliate a sex offender. Thats why our laws make those who commit sex crimes must register as a sex offender for life.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
some ludicrious prosecutor

Don't you mean 'defense attorney', not prosecutor?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
1. These people need mental treatment and not jail time. Jail time does nothing except get them off the streets for a period of time. This is a mental disorder.

Like I said before: sex offenders CANNOT be cured. Thats a FACT! There are studies out there that show it, but Im too lazy to look for the information. They will repeat again any chance that they get. Thats WHY a sex offender has to register where ever they live at for the rest of their lives.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 31):
Nothing worse than expecting a 22 year old blonde dude and getting a 55 year old brunette chick.....

Its YOUR dream come true, huh?  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 
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deltagator
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Sat May 06, 2006 5:39 am

It looks like the reply is gone now but they are showing two more of these. I missed the first one from Ohio and caught the second one but now they are moving on to Ft. Myers down in Florida. Given the amount of weirdos down in my homestate I won't be the least bit surprised by the freakshows they unveil down there.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Sat May 06, 2006 5:44 am

Im surprised that not even ONE female has been caught yet in these stings. There are bound to be some of those weird females doing the same thing out there. Perfect example are public school teachers.
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deltagator
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RE: Pervert Parade On Dateline NBC

Sat May 06, 2006 6:13 am

I thought they caught at least one in the earlier episodes this year. I might be wrong though.
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