Boeing Nut
Topic Author
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Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 4:54 am

I came across these two very good articles that will help you understand why. Good reads.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-03-hybridmileage_x.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
L-188
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 5:03 am

I love to see that they acknowledge that the cars batteries loose efficency below 32 degrees.

I've told you all before my sister used to work the customer service desk at the local toyota dealership and in the winter they where getting all sorts of compaints from Prius owners who where getting on the order of 10MPG for the car. Of course the temps in Alaska at that time of the years where below Zero.
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satx
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hope

Mon May 15, 2006 5:09 am

Working just fine here in South Texas.  Smile
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 5:59 am

I've put 60,000+ miles on a Civic Hybrid and get very close to EPA mileage. I'd probably do better but I tend to drive 75 mph+ when possible.

There are some things that will hurt your mileage:

1. Wrong oil - use the 0 weight oil! I let a quick oil change talk me into 5W20 one time and it cost me 5 mpg+ until I had the oil changed again.
2. Wind and rain - these can really hit you, more than I would have expected.
3. Excessive use of brakes or hard acceleration.
4. Hot weather when the a/c runs hard
5. The defroster only works when the gas engine is running so if conditions require the defroster, city mileage will take a pretty hard hit.

Of course, even on a bad day I'll usually get about 45 mpg!

btw, if you look around on the net you'll find some ubergeek hybrid forums with people who are so careful in the way they drive their hybrid that they get 20% better than EPA. If you're not getting good mileage with it, look in the mirror for the reason in most cases.

One last rant, hybrids are not all Prius! It's a great car but when I looked at things the Civic was almost as efficient and cost $10k less so it was a pretty easy decision. I was also able to get a Civic on demand vs. a waiting list for the Prius. I've learned more since then and it seems that Civics rated mileage is closer to real world than Prius as well.
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AirCop
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 7:49 am

I have a 01 Prius, I get 52 mph in the winter, and then the Arizona summer comes and that means the a/c is on and the mileage drops to 48. Still not bad, now has over 80,000 and one power pack later..
 
777236ER
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 4):
I get 52 mph in the winter, and then the Arizona summer comes and that means the a/c is on and the mileage drops to 48.

Should have bought a diesel.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
cptkrell
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 8:36 am

AirCop; out of curiosity, what does a power pack cost for your Prius and what exactly does the R&R entail (your Rep4)? Thanks...jack
all best; jack
 
MigFan
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 8:48 am

Sounds like a lot of comprimise. I do not get as much, but my diesel gets 28mpg. 2001 F-250 4x4.

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 5):
Should have bought a diesel.

Unfortunately, it's not much of an option in the states. The only two that come to mind are Mercedes(expensive!) and VW(POS).
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aloges
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 8):
VW(POS)

Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them.  Wink I know quite a few people who would buy their "pieces of shit", as you put it, for a second time in a heartbeat.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 7):
but my diesel gets 28mpg. 2001 F-250 4x4

And my 2002 does about the same . . .

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
I love to see that they acknowledge that the cars batteries loose efficency below 32 degrees.

Every battery I've ever dealt with loses something below a certain temperature . . . they'll have to solve this problem before Hybrids will ever be mildly accepted up here.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Cadet57
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 7):
I do not get as much, but my diesel gets 28mpg. 2001 F-250 4x4.

Is that city or highway? My dad's thinking about gettin an '03-'05 250 to replace our '97 150 and that seems like a decent number as I get about 28 highway in my '96 lumina with a 3.1L V6....
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Boeing Nut
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Every battery I've ever dealt with loses something below a certain temperature . . . they'll have to solve this problem before Hybrids will ever be mildly accepted up here.

True. I bet that the next accessory will be a "block heater" type of design for the battery casing for those really cold environments.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Duff44
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
they'll have to solve this problem before Hybrids will ever be mildly accepted up here

That, reducing the price, and for the more performance-oriented like myself, weight.

I personally think that the future is going to be burning something different than gasoline or diesel (ethanol, bio-ethanol, bio-diesel, CNG, LPG, etc) because the basic 4-cycle archtecture of that system is already 'perfected'.
I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
 
Gilligan
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Working just fine here in South Texas.



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
I've put 60,000+ miles on a Civic Hybrid and get very close to EPA mileage. I'd probably do better but I tend to drive 75 mph+ when possible.

Are you using your gas savings to pay for the new power pack that is coming?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 4):
one power pack later..

How much did that power pack cost? I've seen and read where that only can cost up to 5 thousand or more and the sales people don't go out of their way to explain that to shoppers. Seems to me that if that is true then the value of saving the gas puts you in a robbing Peter to pay Paul situation.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AirCop
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
How much did that power pack cost?

The power pack failed at 71,000 miles, it was covered 100% by Toyota. Cost of a new unit is currently $4,000 according to the service manager, plus they covered the rental for nearly two weeks while they waited to get an new pack in. The power pack is covered by warranty for 100,000 and again the service manager stated that Toyota will cover beyond that on a case by case basis. Apparently the want the information for their research.
 
MrChips
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them. Wink I know quite a few people who would buy their "pieces of shit", as you put it, for a second time in a heartbeat.

He's right...for the last two generations, the TDI VWs have been the diamonds in the pigs***, for lack of a better way of putting it.

And as for hybrid cars, there are a few unanswered/ignored questions that I have:

1) How much more pollution results from the manufacture of these cars? Batteries and other electrical components aren't easy or clean to make by any means.

2) When hybrids reach the end of their life cycle, will they be as easy to recycle as a conventional car?

3) Why do hybrid drivers act as smugly as they do? It's not like they're making a gigantic improvement in their fuel consumption, unless they traded in a Hummer H1...
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AC773
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them. Wink I know quite a few people who would buy their "pieces of shit", as you put it, for a second time in a heartbeat.

Now you say that, but the VWs that we get are not the same as yours. Yours are put together in Europe, while ours hail from Mexico. Not to mention that our Golf is still a generation behind yours.

BTW if anyone happens to know what on earth VWs problem was that they couldn't get us the Mk5 in due time, let me know. I'd love to know.

-AC773
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
Gilligan
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 15):
The power pack failed at 71,000 miles, it was covered 100% by Toyota.

Sounds suspiciously like a Chrysler product. Warrantied for 100k and dying at 71K. It doesn't say K car on your vehicle anywhere does it.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 15):
Cost of a new unit is currently $4,000 according to the service manager, plus they covered the rental for nearly two weeks while they waited to get an new pack in.

It was good of them to pick up the tab but considering they probably tacked that cost on the front end of the car what are they really losing? 2 weeks seems like a long time to have to wait considering they know that this is something that is going to happen. What happens when they are being bought en mass? Will the wait get even longer? Still not worth the trouble in IMO but hope you enjoy the vehicle.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
satx
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hope

Mon May 15, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 5):
Should have bought a diesel.

Can you even name a diesel vehicle of similar size and cost that can get better mileage and is sold at hundreds of dealerships in the US?

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 12):
True. I bet that the next accessory will be a "block heater" type of design for the battery casing for those really cold environments.

The battery makes its own heat; it might just need a simple insulation pack around it.

Quoting Duff44 (Reply 13):
That, reducing the price, and for the more performance-oriented like myself, weight.

Economical efficiency and enhanced performance are mutually exclusive requirements, as recent hybrid screw-ups by both Honda (Accord Hybrid) and Toyota (RX Hybrid) have unequivocally shown us.


Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
Are you using your gas savings to pay for the new power pack that is coming?

What an appropriate username for a cheap-shot comment like that. The battery is already covered for as long as I currently plan to own the car and the life of the battery is expected to last 10-12 years.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
How much did that power pack cost? I've seen and read where that only can cost up to 5 thousand or more and the sales people don't go out of their way to explain that to shoppers.

The price of the battery isn't terribly important until the warranties start running out, and it's unlikely even the first models sold have hit that point yet. By then the price of replacement batteries will hopefully have dropped some.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
Seems to me that if that is true then the value of saving the gas puts you in a robbing Peter to pay Paul situation.

If you're already scraping nickels together to buy gas, then a hybrid vehicle probably isn't for you. Otherwise, you can probably afford it without any issue and the more gas goes up the quicker you make your money back. When I first bought my hybrid it was going to take well over 6 years to make my money back, then it was over 5 years, then it was over 4 years and now it's a little over 3 years. At this rate I'll have made all my money back sometime this year with many years left of useful service. You just can't beat that.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
1) How much more pollution results from the manufacture of these cars? Batteries and other electrical components aren't easy or clean to make by any means.

I don't currently have a specific answer for this, but none of the environmental groups I watch has issued any warning about this. Since the manufacturing process is probably considered a 'trade secret' by law, we may never know everything about it unless Honda or Toyota voluntarily release everything they know.



Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
2) When hybrids reach the end of their life cycle, will they be as easy to recycle as a conventional car?

It just occurred to me that if you were truly concerned about the environment you'd probably have already researched this years ago instead of presenting it as a potential reason to be suspicious of hybrids now. However, for the benefit of people who simply don't know, here's the answer...

How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker. Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled. There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.


If you want to learn more, you can start by following this link: http://www.hybridcars.com/faq.html

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
3) Why do hybrid drivers act as smugly as they do? It's not like they're making a gigantic improvement in their fuel consumption, unless they traded in a Hummer H1...

My take on this is...

America has slowly but continually become an almost blindly materialistic society that routinely rewards conspicuous consumption and yet almost completely ignores ethical considerations. Since there are surprisingly few choices for those who do factor ethics into their purchases, people who buck the trend and do what they can feel that they have already done more than most, and rightly so. The day America stops whining about the cost of gas and actually sacrifices a bit of our mobility for the good of all is the day that hybrid owners will take breather and stop looking at some drivers with contempt.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
MigFan
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 11):
Is that city or highway? My dad's thinking about gettin an '03-'05 250 to replace our '97 150 and that seems like a decent number as I get about 28 highway in my '96 lumina with a 3.1L V6....

I do mostly highway without a hitch. Make sure you get a diesel, and not gas. A gas V8, V10 probably gets 10-14mpg. The vehicle weighs in at 7000lbs, twice as much as a hybrid, and it is much more functional. If someone hits me in the truck, I'll be alright. Who knows what will happen if I got hit in a Prius/Civic.

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
L-188
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
1) How much more pollution results from the manufacture of these cars? Batteries and other electrical components aren't easy or clean to make by any means.

That is a concern of mine also. The heavy metals that are in those batteries have to end up someplace. Apparently there is a recycling program, but that is only if you turn it in. And from all the abandoned cars I have seen in gravel pits, not all do.

Also another concern is all the extra wiring in the cars and the risk those high power lines pose to firecrews cutting into a car in the case of an accident. Every firetruck should have a copy of a manual that shows where all the key lines are in them, but still you know that some poor guy is going to get zapped at some point trying to effect a rescue.
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deltagator
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 18):
Sounds suspiciously like a Chrysler product. Warrantied for 100k and dying at 71K. It doesn't say K car on your vehicle anywhere does it.

Now you've gone and insulted Superfly. Way to go!
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 12):
True. I bet that the next accessory will be a "block heater" type of design for the battery casing for those really cold environments.

The battery makes its own heat; it might just need a simple insulation pack around it.

But that battery won't make it's own anything sitting in a garage or out in your driveway at -50F . . . . even overnight . . . . welcome to Alaska.

Thusly, they are not quite so popular here . . . even warming the battery with a commercial battery blanket installed under the hood doesn't always do the trick. And we're not talking about a single 12 volt style battery here, right . . . we're talking about a LOT of battery. it's going to need a damn big blanket and pull a lot of juice to even keep it above freezing while it's sits there.

Nope, SATX, they just ain't gonna make it here . . . . Texas - where you can cook an egg on your driveway . . . sure. Not here, not until they solve the problem.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
And we're not talking about a single 12 volt style battery here, right . . . we're talking about a LOT of battery. it's going to need a damn big blanket and pull a lot of juice to even keep it above freezing while it's sits there.

When I worked for AS in 1994 they had two pushback tugs that where electric. They had to be parked inside in winter otherwise the batteries would freeze.

All the diesel ones just needed to be pluged into a 110 outlet to power the heat pump.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
All the diesel ones just needed to be pluged into a 110 outlet to power the heat pump.

Exactly the reason every vehicle on the North Slope runs 24/7 from October to May.

Either that or you have several tons of monument on your hands until the thaw . . . .

And there is NO electric vehicle anywhere near there . . . that would simply be stupid.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:45 pm

Just gotta tell this quick story.

My wife works with a woman who owns a hybrid. She waited a long time to get her Prius.

A few weeks ago and after I'd seen the infamous South Park episode about hybrids I had to get a ride in her car. We discussed it's features which are very nice, and how it works which I admit was very neat. A few mintues later though she says that she feels good that she's "doing her part" and I bit my tounge and laughed in my head thinking, "gee did it get really smug in here."

Anyway Hybrids are fine just be sure we dont trade smog for smug.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:56 pm

My mother loves her Passat diesel and is getting high 30's in the city and near 50 on the highway.

My take on hybrids is until they become more cost effective they won't catch on in huge numbers, I certainly hope they do.

Consumer Reports had a good write up about this not too long ago.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them. Wink I know quite a few people who would buy their "pieces of shit", as you put it, for a second time in a heartbeat.

I have. I can't count the friends and family members who've regretted buying VWs over the last 25 years. At one point they were fine vehicles but their quality and reliability has hit rock bottom.

Also, just for the hell of it I compared mileage on the Civic Hybrid to the Jetta TDI(most equivalent in size, price, etc.) and the Civic Hybrid is considerably better - the gap widens when you factor diesel normally being more expensive these days than unleaded. Even the smaller Golf is considerably less efficient and the same goes for the even smaller Beetle.

It's also interesting to read web reviews from people who love their VW tdi autos. They almost always mention the different "minor" things they need to have fixed along the way. OTOH, this is very rare with regards to Honda and Toyota.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
Are you using your gas savings to pay for the new power pack that is coming?

Before I purchased the car I was worried about this and tried to find out what the downside was. I looked really hard and couldn't find a single example of a person who had paid to replace the batteries. I'm honestly not worried about it. But to answer your question more directly, I do save more than enough on gas to justify it even if I did have to shell out for a new battery pack.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 17):
Now you say that, but the VWs that we get are not the same as yours. Yours are put together in Europe, while ours hail from Mexico. Not to mention that our Golf is still a generation behind yours.

Do we still get Brazilian made ones as well?
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
But that battery won't make it's own anything sitting in a garage or out in your driveway at -50F . . . . even overnight . . . . welcome to Alaska.

Not here, not until they solve the problem.

Forget Alaska. There's only 650,000 people in Alaska.

There are 5.2 million people in Houston, 5.7 million people in DFW, 9.4 million people in Chicago, 12.9 million people in Los Angles, and 18.7 million people in NYC. And that's only five metro areas.

Hybrid cars are not built for Alaskan conditions and the Alaskan population frankly doesn't need hybrids. Hybrids are built for city driving and commuting, what the vast majority of city dwellers use their cars for. In this regard, hybrids to a damn good job, better than any IC vehicle yet built.

City driving is the most inefficent use of IC vehicles and thus where the most improvement stands to be made. The Alaska as a whole is insignificant compared to the millions of people inflating demand by using their vehicles in urban/suburban circut driving. Alaska adopting the hybrid is largely irrelevant, it's the city market that must be converted.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 20):
The vehicle weighs in at 7000lbs, twice as much as a hybrid, and it is much more functional. If someone hits me in the truck, I'll be alright.

What is this the 1950s? That's a horrible logic flaw. The Toyota Camry weights only 3,000 lbs but has the lowest ratio of fatalities to vehicles sold. The same holds true for all so-called "light" passenger cars.

The vehicles with the worst fatality statistics are trucks and SUV because of their poor accident avoidance and high center of mass. How does 7,000 lbs help you when your barrel-rolling down the interstate? If you're affraid of getting T-boned in a light car, a truck doesn't put any additional mass along the sides of the vehicle.

You're just as screwed if you get hit by another truck, and you're more screwed in common accident scenarios.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
3) Why do hybrid drivers act as smugly as they do?

Same reason Mac users think their farts smell like cinnamon.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them.

Don't take it personal Aloges, but the reliability and build quality of North American VW is terrible...
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Forget Alaska

 irked 

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Hybrid cars are not built for Alaskan conditions and the Alaskan population frankly doesn't need hybrids

Thank you, will you please explain that to the Bunny Hugging, Tree Hugging, Save the Fuckin' World Enviro-Nut Jobs . . .

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Alaska adopting the hybrid is largely irrelevant, it's the city market that must be converted.

Correct, in that we have (really) two cities where traffic and the resulting environmental conditions could benefit from a Hybrid, it's almost a moot point . . . and then there's the weather. When it's -30F in ANC or -50F in FAI, you can just park the damn battery car . . . and bust out that big ass Diesel truck and continue to march.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Same reason Mac users think their farts smell like cinnamon.

 rotfl 
Klaus we be along momentarily to explain his cinnamony odor . . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Molykote
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Economical efficiency and enhanced performance are mutually exclusive requirements

Make any car lighter and this "theory" is pretty much shot to hell.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
satx
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hope

Mon May 15, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 31):
Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Economical efficiency and enhanced performance are mutually exclusive requirements

Make any car lighter and this "theory" is pretty much shot to hell.

Look, everyone knows I'll take all comers when it involves debating issues important to me, but you'll need to do a better job than this if you expect to see any sort of serious reply in return. Both Honda and Toyota tried to use hybrid technology to improve performance and it killed the efficiency. Just read up on the models I mentioned. It's all a trade off. Theoretical outcomes notwithstanding, there is no practical application of hybrid technology that can yet provide both substantially improved efficiency and increaseded peformance at the same time.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
Molykote
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 5:10 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Economical efficiency and enhanced performance are mutually exclusive requirements



Quoting Molykote (Reply 31):
Make any car lighter and this "theory" is pretty much shot to hell.



Quoting SATX (Reply 32):
Look, everyone knows I'll take all comers when it involves debating issues important to me, but you'll need to do a better job than this if you expect to see any sort of serious reply in return. Both Honda and Toyota tried to use hybrid technology to improve performance and it killed the efficiency. Just read up on the models I mentioned. It's all a trade off. Theoretical outcomes notwithstanding, there is no practical application of hybrid technology that can yet provide both substantially improved efficiency and increaseded peformance at the same time.

My comments were not confined to hybrid technology. The grander point is that the goals of "economic efficiency" and "performance" are not always at odds with one another. By framing arguments in this way we are shunning win-win scenarios.

As an example, reducing vehicle weight pays dividends upon dividends for multiple metrics of overall economy/efficiency/performance. A given "black box" powerplant with specified output will do more for a lighter vehicle. At this time the hybrid "black box" weighs more than the internal combusion engine black box.

Although no perfect comparison exists as of yet, anyone who is interested can take a look at www.toyota.com and check the base model Camry against the Camry Hybrid. It's clear that the hybrid Camry cleans the clock of other models in city driving but an overall look at the situation shows that when hybrids are used outside of the current "save every oucne of gas at all costs" niche that much of the benefit disappears. This is not the case when examining similar cars of different weights - The lighter car will bring many benefits beyond those shown in the commonly published "snapshot" metrics.

It's also important to ask oneself what degree of additional manufacturing and comsumption is required to account for the base price discrepancy of $18,270 for the Camry CE vs $25,900 for the hybrid. The CE can be had with a curb weight of 3,263 lb vs 3,680 for the hybrid. The CE/Hybrid comare at 24/40 city and 34/38 highway.
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MigFan
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
What is this the 1950s? That's a horrible logic flaw. The Toyota Camry weights only 3,000 lbs but has the lowest ratio of fatalities to vehicles sold. The same holds true for all so-called "light" passenger cars.

The vehicles with the worst fatality statistics are trucks and SUV because of their poor accident avoidance and high center of mass. How does 7,000 lbs help you when your barrel-rolling down the interstate? If you're affraid of getting T-boned in a light car, a truck doesn't put any additional mass along the sides of the vehicle.

You're just as screwed if you get hit by another truck, and you're more screwed in common accident scenarios.

You honestly mean to tell me that in the hybrid, hit by that same truck, you are safer? I just don't buy it, logic flaw or not. The math just does not add up. Mass is not the advantage, it is height, and construction. My truck not made out of plastic/carbon fiber. I also sit much highter than a normal car. Anyone hitting me, has a better chance of going under, than inside. I have been rear-ended twice, with no damage other than the customary scuff. The owner of one Dodge Neon cannot make the same claim.

In fourteen years of driving, I have never rolled any vehicle. Those who do, need a lesson in driving. Unlike most SUV/Truck owners, my vehicle saw numerous trials. I used to live in the woods, hence the need for all-weather capability. If you are willing to place your life on auto-marketing facts that is your business.

/M
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KaiGywer
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting AC773 (Reply 17):
Now you say that, but the VWs that we get are not the same as yours. Yours are put together in Europe, while ours hail from Mexico. Not to mention that our Golf is still a generation behind yours.

Which begs the question. How hard is importing a car to the US?
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Boeing Nut
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:58 pm

Here's my take on the Hybrid "thing". If you are out to get one "just because", then to me, that is no different than buying a Hummer. You getting it just for status. If you have a car that gets decent milage already, there is no real benifit to getting a Hybrid. In my case, we had one fall into our lap and we were replacing a car anyway. Win, win.

I do admit that I am a fan though. Even if I were to win the lottery, I'd still keep ours and would consider getting another.
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MigFan
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 12:02 am

Is there an additional maintenance overhead on owning a hybrid? The car does not strike me as something that can be taken to "Joe's Garage".

I love the idea, just put it in a vehicle like my truck. GM was working on a hybrid Silverado 1500, but the costs equal a normal vehicle with average gas consumption. it seems like they get you either way.

/M
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777236ER
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Can you even name a diesel vehicle of similar size and cost that can get better mileage and is sold at hundreds of dealerships in the US?

VW Golf, Jetta (Passat) and Beetle. I bet all are cheaper than a Prius, the Golf is a similar size and the Passat is bigger.
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deltadc9
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
There are some things that will hurt your mileage:

Add to that:

Tire pressure, acceleration on a uphill grade, carrying unneeded weight, fuel filter needing changed, air filter needing changed, bad PCV valve, not using cruise control, not slowing down in a strong headwind. There are hundreds of things you can do, or not do, to improve millage.

How bout losing weight, how much fuel would we save in this country if there was far less obesity?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them

Their reputation precedes them.

My wife is a VW warranted administrator for a large dealership. POS is right on the money.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 35):
Which begs the question. How hard is importing a car to the US?

Pain in the arse.

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Can you even name a diesel vehicle of similar size and cost that can get better mileage and is sold at hundreds of dealerships in the US?

Jeep Liberty, but there needs to be way more.

The Mercedes E330 diesel is only available in very limited numbers too.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
I've put 60,000+ miles on a Civic Hybrid and get very close to EPA mileage

The federal government is about to change the method of calculating mileage. Highway mileage is calculated at 45 mph. Not a typo, 45 mph. The numbers for almost all models will drop, and the Prius will see a significant drop when estimated in real world conditions.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
mham001
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 3:08 am

As these hybrids age, it will be interesting to see the hit they take at resale. I hear a lot of Prius owners glibly saying they will just sell their cars at 100,000 miles when the battery warranty runs out. Who would want to buy one with a $4k battery bill looming? Seems like the ideal scenario would be to get the battery pack to die at 80-90k.
 
Mir
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 5):
Should have bought a diesel.

Diesels aren't very popular in the US, some states have in fact banned them. I think the difference is in the fuel - European diesel is a lot cleaner than US diesel (or so I've been told).

Quoting AC773 (Reply 17):
Now you say that, but the VWs that we get are not the same as yours. Yours are put together in Europe, while ours hail from Mexico

Both my parents have 2001 Passats, which were made in Germany. I've heard that the US version of the Golf comes from Mexico, but I don't think that extends to the rest of the lineup.

-Mir
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deltadc9
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
I think the difference is in the fuel - European diesel is a lot cleaner than US diesel (or so I've been told).

That will change very soon

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
but I don't think that extends to the rest of the lineup.

Yes, sadly, it applies to most of the VWs sold in America. More every year. Every new model introduction includes "Made in Mexico" tag.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
DrDeke
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
Why do hybrid drivers act as smugly as they do? It's not like they're making a gigantic improvement in their fuel consumption, unless they traded in a Hummer H1...

Even if they didn't make a gigantic reduction in their fuel consumption, hybrid engined cars generally produce a LOT less harmful pollution than a non-hybrid engine, because the ICE in a hybrid vehicle spends much more of its time running under optimal conditions than that of a non-hybrid vehicle.



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 40):
I hear a lot of Prius owners glibly saying they will just sell their cars at 100,000 miles when the battery warranty runs out. Who would want to buy one with a $4k battery bill looming?

Fortunately, each cell of the Prius battery pack can be individually replaced, so if there is a problem with a small number of cells, the entire pack does not need to be replaced.


-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):

Don't take it personally !  Smile

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
Klaus we be along momentarily to explain his cinnamony odor . . . . .

Haha.. well I'm a Mac user myself, I'm an economy car driver myself, I just don't see why people are so proud of themselves...

Quoting MigFan (Reply 34):
You honestly mean to tell me that in the hybrid, hit by that same truck, you are safer?

You aren't any more safe being in a truck and being struck from the side

Quoting MigFan (Reply 34):
Mass is not the advantage, it is height, and construction. My truck not made out of plastic/carbon fiber.

Neither is a Toyota Prius, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Toyota Highlander, Lexus RX400, or Escape. In fact, the only hybrid that persues the true "ultra-light" approach is the Honda Insight, which is far from the most popular vehicle on the road.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 34):
Those who do, need a lesson in driving.

That's totally outside of your control once you enter into any number of accident scenarios. At that point, the only person in the drivers seat is Isaac Newton.

Don't think you're a good enough driver to defy the laws of the physical universe  Yeah sure
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 44):
You aren't any more safe being in a truck and being struck from the side

Yeah, but if a Prius (or Corolla, or Taurus, or Fiat, or Neon, or Crown Vic, or . . . . ) hit me in the side, I'll know it, but I'll make a solid bet right now, I will be the one walking away . . . . then they'll peel the whatever it was that hit me out from under my BAFDT . . . The door sill is 20 inches above the road surface (from the factory) . . . that's a lot of room for something to go scooting underneath.

So, all things considered, I'll keep the BAFDT not only for it's hauling capability and snow busting ability, but for the protection. Unless I'm begin tagged by a like vehicle - and in Alaska, that's probably, I'm thinking, statistically and common sensically, I'm in better shape with the BAFDT.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 44):
Don't take it personally

I didn't . . . I was laughing . . . should have put a  irked  and a  wink  or a  biggrin 

You make valid points . . .

The hybrid in Alaska simply isn't on the radar screen . . . even in ANC. Oh, sure there are the "We're doing our part", and "Save the trees, whales, minnows, ozone, amoeba in the pond" crowd that have them . . . I've seen 1 or 2 bouncing about up here . . . but generally, those Alaskans with any sense at all won't even consider it for all the reasons outlined above.

I've said it before . . . but to reiterate - when Ford produces a BAFDT that has a hybrid engine and can haul my 30 foot camper at 60+ MPH for an extended duration - read that 15 hours minimum - with no loss of performance, and haul up and down mountains, and I can run the AC, defroster, heat, plug in a video game for Junior, etc, I'll buy it. I want to save the environment for my daughter . . . but not at the expense of common sense . . . .
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mham001
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 43):
Even if they didn't make a gigantic reduction in their fuel consumption, hybrid engined cars generally produce a LOT less harmful pollution than a non-hybrid engine, because the ICE in a hybrid vehicle spends much more of its time running under optimal conditions than that of a non-hybrid vehicle.

Thats not necessarily true. The San Jose Mercury News looked at that and found 20 cars that burned cleaner than the Prius, and that was almost two years ago. Many of them were Fords.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting MigFan (Reply 37):
Is there an additional maintenance overhead on owning a hybrid? The car does not strike me as something that can be taken to "Joe's Garage".

Actually there's not much special about working on them at all unless something goes bad in the high voltage electric system. Wal-Mart has even started selling 0W-20 Mobil 1 - believe it or not, availablity of suitable oil was the only deterrent to me self maintaining in the past.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 39):
The federal government is about to change the method of calculating mileage. Highway mileage is calculated at 45 mph. Not a typo, 45 mph. The numbers for almost all models will drop, and the Prius will see a significant drop when estimated in real world conditions.

I'm living in the real world and average 47-48 mpg for a car rated at 46/51. I've always been within 1-2 mpg of EPA on every vehicle I've owned. Some people, like my wife, are lucky to get 70% of the EPA rating.
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AC773
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?

Tue May 16, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
Both my parents have 2001 Passats, which were made in Germany. I've heard that the US version of the Golf comes from Mexico, but I don't think that extends to the rest of the lineup.

Yes, I was wrong on that. Their Mexico factory produces the Golf, GTI, Jetta, and New Beetle.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 35):
Which begs the question. How hard is importing a car to the US?

It's a process that's very long and very hard.  Wink Anyway, after you get it physically shipped over here, there are some expensive emissions modifications IIRC to get it legal. It's a pricy job, and it takes a lot of paperwork and patience.

-AC773
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
satx
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RE: Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hope

Tue May 16, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 36):
Here's my take on the Hybrid "thing". If you are out to get one "just because", then to me, that is no different than buying a Hummer.

You have got to be kidding me. There is a huge difference. Even the worst hybrid snob still benefits everyone else by reducing fossil fuel consumption and reducing greenhouse gas emissions compared to an SUV snob. Pure and simple.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 36):
If you have a car that gets decent milage already, there is no real benifit to getting a Hybrid.

First of all, the conception of 'decent mileage' that most Americans are comfortable with is in reality piss-poor. Second, you're helping by voting with your dollars and promoting the continued funding of additional research by buying a hybrid.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 39):
Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Can you even name a diesel vehicle of similar size and cost that can get better mileage and is sold at hundreds of dealerships in the US?

Jeep Liberty, but there needs to be way more. The Mercedes E330 diesel is only available in very limited numbers too.

Jeep Liberty diesel...

MPG city: 22
MPG highway: 26
MPG combined: 23

Ford Escape Hybrid...

MPG city: 33 (50% better)
MPG highway: 29 (11.5% better)
MPG combined: 31 (35% better)

Wow, it sure seems easy to prove you pro-diesel folks dead wrong. As for the Mercedes, there's no point in even looking it up because it already breaks the cost and availability benchmarks. Maybe you should come back when you have a better understanding of the situation.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 38):
Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Can you even name a diesel vehicle of similar size and cost that can get better mileage and is sold at hundreds of dealerships in the US?

VW Golf, Jetta (Passat) and Beetle. I bet all are cheaper than a Prius, the Golf is a similar size and the Passat is bigger.

Go visit http://www.fueleconomy.gov and then come back and say that.
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