texdravid
Posts: 1397
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 3:45 am

I heard this from a fellow doctor, who is also Indian. What do you think?

Because America is going down the toilet, politically, academically, financially, etc., the future generation of Indians (and for the purposes of argument, other Asians) will firsthand note the rot inside America and actually emigrate to their "mother" countries of China, India, etc.

I have strong doubts about this theory. First of all, the Indian kids growing up now are firmly entrenched Americans, and I don't think they have the balls or cojones like our parents did to emigrate to a strange land and start over.

Second, it's not like those countries who could potentially take these new "immigrants" actually need their ilk anyway in terms of jobs and thus visas won't be handed out like candy.

Again, what do you all think?

Tex
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 4:10 am

There will always be some Indians who will go back, as many have already done so in the past 5 years given the more favorable investment and business climate in India. Moreover, many of the earlier generations of engineers, doctors, etc. who comprised the first big wave of Indian professionals immigrating to the US are choosing to retire in India (for that matter many Americans are choosing to retire in Mexico as their retirement dollars stretch further).

However, this has not slowed emigration from India to the US. The lines at US Embassies for visas and green cards are just as long, if not longer.

Those who were born in the US or came here at a very young age are culturally American and while they may have visited India numerous times, (and may even choose to do a year abroad in India while in college), moving to India will be very hard.

Perhaps over the decades to come, India will not be as large a source of immigrants as it is today. Look at Ireland, for instance. Or Italy. As they became more prosperous, fewer of their people moved to the US. However, very few of those who did emigrate to the US, went back.

Besides, lets not forget that anything can happen in India. Socialism can rear its ugly head again, and the economy could tank.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Texdravid (Thread starter):
Because America is going down the toilet, politically, academically, financially, etc., the future generation of Indians (and for the purposes of argument, other Asians) will firsthand note the rot inside America and actually emigrate to their "mother" countries of China, India, etc.


My guess is that if that were to happen as your friend predicts, the folks back home who stuck it out would probably speculate that these returnees of privilege were out for the main chance, no?

I'll be happy to have Sir Walter Scott printed on a postcard and send it to all these folks he's talking about.

Breathes there the man with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
"This is my own, my native land!"
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd
From wandering on a foreign strand?
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour'd, and unsung.

-- Sir Walter Scott

[Edited 2006-05-15 21:33:34]
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Texdravid (Thread starter):
I have strong doubts about this theory. First of all, the Indian kids growing up now are firmly entrenched Americans, and I don't think they have the balls or cojones like our parents did to emigrate to a strange land and start over.

I tend to agree. India is still a third world country. Most Americans/Canadians of Indian descent would find India too dirty, too poor, too chaotic, too dusty, too hot. They have gotten far too comfortable in US/Canada to even consider going back to the old country. They likely don't have the fortitude to emigrate back.

I too am thinking about going back to India after finishing my graduate studies. I actually do enjoy the physical India. There is something mystical about the old country that the mechanical and quiet often souless North America just doesn't have.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 3):
They have gotten far too comfortable in US/Canada to even consider going back to the old country. They likely don't have the fortitude to emigrate back.

Why is this an issue of fortitude?

The history of the world is replete with the migration of people from places of limited opportunity to a place where they can succeed. It is but a natural course of events that's been played out over and over again.

Quoting Texdravid (Thread starter):
Because America is going down the toilet, politically, academically, financially, etc., the future generation of Indians (and for the purposes of argument, other Asians) will firsthand note the rot inside America and actually emigrate to their "mother" countries of China, India, etc.

We've heard this before and we'll hear it again.
The US is still a very vital cultural and economic force. Yes, we've had a temporary setback with the war in Iraq, a thuggish President, etc. But that having been said, said President has done a relatively decent job on the economy, even if he's been an abject failure everywhere else. This sense of malaise that America is on skid row is just that, and it will diminish with new leadership.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
deltaffindfw
Posts: 1382
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 4:59 am

I was born and raised in the US, and while I love visiting my family back in India, the thought of moving there for good NEVER crosses my mind.

Again, my family is upper-middle class and lives well, but let's be honest, the country itself is way too over-crowded, the standard of living there is far poorer than anything here, and especially for me, I am a huge meat eater. I love a thick steak - can't get that there.

I can definately see people who come over here heading back since they have grown up there, but I would seriously doubt that most American born Indians would pick up and move.

Plus, you think the US government is corrupt??
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 5):
Plus, you think the US government is corrupt??

Amen.

The level of bribery, corruption, and pettiness seen in India when dealing with the government is mind boggling.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
I'll be happy to have Sir Walter Scott printed on a postcard and send it to all these folks he's talking about.

Dougloid, every kid in India that went to an english medium school knows that poem by heart....

Here is the tricky thing about immigration - how do you give up your country of birth and take your adopted country to heart? I think this simply doesn't happen in the first generation. You are deeply grateful, thankful ,and love living in the USA, but you can't betray the country you were born in - caught between two loves, I guess.

I think often the patrioitism issue gets confused with the workforce globalization issue. If a lot of immigrants here want to go back, that is perfectly reasonable and honorable, they were just here to work. When you become a citizen, however, should you just be able to jump ship for greener pastures?

This gets even more confusing when you apply it to the US. This is after all a country built on immigrants who ditched the old country, (therefore unpatriotic, as per Sir W) in search of a better life. So how can we apply a different standard to those that want to leave now?
 
mdsh00
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 8:11 am

There will always be some from our generation (1st Generation) that will go back. For sure many of those who have immigrated to the US may/will go back. Many of the first wave of immigrants who are retiring choose to divide their time living in the two countries as many of them have spent so many years here.

For me personally, as much as I think India may be fun. I can't see myself living there permanently. I would be more likely to move to another Western country first than going there.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
cfalk
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Texdravid (Thread starter):
Because America is going down the toilet, politically, academically, financially, etc., the future generation of Indians (and for the purposes of argument, other Asians) will firsthand note the rot inside America and actually emigrate to their "mother" countries of China, India, etc.

That is identical to Marxist Leninist theory, which predicted that the Western democracies would rot away from within. That propaganda pops up now and again.

The facts are zjaz in terms of standard of living, crime rates, etc. Every single democracy is on a solid positive trend, and has been for ages.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 7):
Here is the tricky thing about immigration - how do you give up your country of birth and take your adopted country to heart? I think this simply doesn't happen in the first generation. You are deeply grateful, thankful ,and love living in the USA, but you can't betray the country you were born in - caught between two loves, I guess.

I'd say the opposite is true. First generation imigrants are often the ones who made the leap and emmigrated. I find that they are frequently far more patriotic than people who have been living there for generations, because they don't take the country for granted.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting Texdravid (Thread starter):
I have strong doubts about this theory. First of all, the Indian kids growing up now are firmly entrenched Americans, and I don't think they have the balls or cojones like our parents did to emigrate to a strange land and start over.

I do not believe that folks will want to leave America for better opportunities elsewhere, with minor exceptions. Such exceptions would include, for example, politically discontented individuals, ranging from Hollywood stars to average citizens. I've read of a very few Americans who now call Canada their home, for example. But again, these are rarities.
What's fair is fair.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 7):
Here is the tricky thing about immigration - how do you give up your country of birth and take your adopted country to heart? I think this simply doesn't happen in the first generation. You are deeply grateful, thankful ,and love living in the USA, but you can't betray the country you were born in - caught between two loves, I guess.

True. It was aimed at the people this friend of Texdravid posits that, born in the states they're going to bugger off to wherever the parents came from after looking around at the impending collapse of Festung Amerika...at least that's what it sounded like.

Personally, I do not think that many folks of the Asian persuasion are that spineless and lacking in character. I'd hazard a guess they've got a lot more spine than this friend of Texdravid thinks.

And if it's true? For those who remain out of conviction, or like myself have no place I call home other than this land (I'd quote the Bard about this sceptred isle but it was already taken), well, the air will be a lot fresher when we see all the people off on the plane who do not seem to want to be here. Their place will, I am sure, be gladly taken by those who yearn to breathe free.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 9:03 am

All I can say is that for any Indian who wants to go back, there are 10 who would gladly take his/her place.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Texdravid (Thread starter):
heard this from a fellow doctor, who is also Indian. What do you think?

Texdravid, your friend deserves to go back on Air India!  Wink

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
Their place will, I am sure, be gladly taken by those who yearn to breathe free.

 thumbsup 
...and those who yearn for indoor plumbing...


America treats its immigrants very, very well- like being turned left when boarding a flight. In turn, immigrants try their very best to repay the kindness and generosity of a host country by working really hard to succeed. I am still amazed that the only job left you cannot aspire to within a generation is POTUS. There are absolutely no class or color barriers, nor any insidious cultural barriers to success in the USA ( But you gotta speak in English!).
 
LAS757300
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 2:04 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 5):
Again, my family is upper-middle class and lives well, but let's be honest, the country itself is way too over-crowded, the standard of living there is far poorer than anything here, and especially for me, I am a huge meat eater. I love a thick steak - can't get that there.


I could see a good number of first generation Indians returning for reasons already stated upthread. Most will stay. No matter how fast the Indian economy grows in the next twenty years living standards will still be far below Western standards. The demographic situation in China will spread the resources available elderly quite thin, making returning returning unattractive for Chinesse imigrants.

[Edited 2006-05-16 04:55:37]
KMSP
 
DETA737
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2000 3:47 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 1:15 pm

I think as India prospers it will be more attractive as a place to live and settle. I think many first generation emigrants will probably be lured to return especially to retire. It makes sense if you grew up in India, especially for those who still have family back in India and for whom English is not a primary language. It's not that uncommon, the U.S. has never kept figures on emigration but almost half of all Italians that emigrated to the U.S. returned, some came back but others were only here temporarily. Throughout the 1930s emigrants outnumbered immigrants.

My parents emigrated from Portugal to the U.S. in 1970 and 1978 respectively and both are returning there for good next year as many of their generation have already done so. I don't think they did it because they were ungrateful for the economic opportunities the United States gave them, but rather they wanted to live in a place where the people spoke their language and be surrounded by family members as they get older.

I myself was born in the U.S. but live in the UK due to the fact that I possess an EU passport. Because I chose to live here does not make me an unpatriotic or anti-American. I just happen to really like London a lot, which is why I live here rather than in the U.S. Perhaps some people should keep that in mind, just because one chooses to live abroad it does not mean he or she is against a country, and it's a bit narrow-minded to make that assumption.
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 1:36 pm

That's excellent news. They are much more needed in the country of origin, and much better respected there. They can live a very comfortable life while at the same time being close to their families, their roots, their culture.

The life of an immigrant is never settled, as he/she has seen both sides of the world. Many who live in the third world and had a decent life never did their dishes, never had to clean their houses, never had to wash clothes etc as there was always someone hired to do that kind of stuff. If you have ever heard someone say that folks in North America are always on the go, always looking at shortcuts to the amount of time it takes to complete a task etc, it's absolutely true because when it comes to life in North America, one is subjected to 10x the amount of daily work, be it a doctor, a nurse or otherwise, as chances are, they do not have help around the house, have to commute like crazy, too busy at work, and almost always, one's self comes last.

When immigrants eventually realize that they can live better, be treated and compensated better, and even help their own countrymen by applying their own skills back in the country they came from, it would simply be too hard to shrug the temptation off and continue waking up at 5AM and not going back to bed before 11PM.

Finally, what's even more interesting is how expatriates who work in third world countries and live "the life" have a hard time returning to their own countries. It is simply too comfortable.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 2:01 pm

Actually on the news the other night they had a story about american engineers moving to india for work.

They just think that with all the outsourcing the opportunities are better there for gaining work experience when they decide to come back home.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 16, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting Texdravid (Thread starter):
rot inside America

I think this idea is extremely exaggerated.

Sure we'll see some reverse immigration, will it be enough to be an event of importance? I very much doubt it.




-NWA742

[Edited 2006-05-16 07:22:52]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
texdravid
Posts: 1397
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 17, 2006 12:49 am

Well this guy is not my "friend". He is a first generation desi doctor much older than me.

However, his point cannot entirely be written off. Why? I don't think he meant that today or tomorrow that America is going to lose her standard of living.

But what about 30-50 years from now? Do you really think America will be number one then? This has nothing to do with Bush, Republicans or Democrats. This has to do with America's hapless education system, its glorification of athletics/entertainment at the expense of more education and hard work, the overwhelming social-nanny-welfare state that will only grow, the hapless underclass that needs and desires aforementioned welfare state, the freespending political dunderheads in Washington, and our woeful bloodletting in Iraq, and our feeble enforcement on the border.

America needs a swift kick in the ass to awaken her, or my "friend" may entirely be right, maybe not now, but certainly by mid-21st century.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 17, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 19):
But what about 30-50 years from now? Do you really think America will be number one then? This has nothing to do with Bush, Republicans or Democrats. This has to do with America's hapless education system, its glorification of athletics/entertainment at the expense of more education and hard work, the overwhelming social-nanny-welfare state that will only grow, the hapless underclass that needs and desires aforementioned welfare state, the freespending political dunderheads in Washington, and our woeful bloodletting in Iraq, and our feeble enforcement on the border.

Thirty years ago when large waves of Indian immigrants were coming to the United States one could have said the same - a hapless educational system enduring the worst of busing and segregation, glorification of athletes over other achievers (Joe Namath and Wilt Chamberlain were far more revered than Watson or Crick), the nanny welfare system was at its peak, the Vietnam was was in its death throes, etc., etc., etc. Plus, many Indian immigrants had to endure racism and/or a glass ceiling that generally doesn't exist today. Thus, I would say that things are much better today than they were then. Yes, the kind of cradle to grave security that existed back in the 70s and early 80s for professionals doesn't exist today, but does it exist in India? No.

Moreover, even if the Indian economy grew at 10% annually (which it isn't), it would take over more than 50 years to completely eradicate poverty and bring the country's lifestyle up to par with that of the US.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 17, 2006 2:09 am

This has been an interesting read, but I can't help detect a certain tone of cherry-picking going on by this friend. Leave their native soil, come to America to make something of themselves, then worry about if the U.S. will be able to sustain the style of life he has accustomed himself to.

Instead of wondering about whether his welcome had worn out or not, I would be trying to make my chosen home a better place, rather than taking the money and running.
International Homo of Mystery
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 17, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
This has been an interesting read, but I can't help detect a certain tone of cherry-picking going on by this friend.

I think it appears to be a wistful taking stock of one's life and wondering if one made the right decision. Hindsight is always 20-20, and often its not even that.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
singaporegirl
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 17, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
This has been an interesting read

i agree. actually this thread reminds me of my husband. as a young banker (in his late 20s), he left new york (he was born and raised there) and took this job here in singapore. i suppose it is a type of reverse immigration, as most people would think that there are more singaporeans who would move to the states than the other way around.

before we got married, i asked if he would stay in singapore or move back to new york. and he said; yes new york is one of the greatest cities on earth, but in singapore he'd have a much, much, higher standard of living (even though s'pore is not a third world country by any means). he could live comfortably in manhattan with the sallary that he's making now, but for the past 10 years or so he chose to stay in singapore because he's accustomed to the expat lifestyle that he's been enjoying here: a great flat by orchard road, live-in maid, a luxury car, a vacation villa in bali, etc, etc. so when i read this thread, i wonder if the friend of the thread starter wanted to have that super upscale lifestyle in india, which is probably a little bit easier to attain there than in the us.

sometimes i still wonder if one day my husband would want to move back to the states. but i think for now, he's quite content with the life that we both share here in singapore.
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 17, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
True. It was aimed at the people this friend of Texdravid posits that, born in the states they're going to bugger off to wherever the parents came from after looking around at the impending collapse of Festung Amerika...at least that's what it sounded like.

Personally, I do not think that many folks of the Asian persuasion are that spineless and lacking in character. I'd hazard a guess they've got a lot more spine than this friend of Texdravid thinks.

And if it's true? For those who remain out of conviction, or like myself have no place I call home other than this land (I'd quote the Bard about this sceptred isle but it was already taken), well, the air will be a lot fresher when we see all the people off on the plane who do not seem to want to be here. Their place will, I am sure, be gladly taken by those who yearn to breathe free.

breathe free....depends on which country you are talking about...with India, thats a bit rich....Many indians are willing to emigrate to West not because they are oppresed but because they want to make money. Many first generations Indians (I sorta am, emigrated here in Primary grade) love
US/Canada for the opportunity they have, but really don't consider it home.
Home will always be India. They don't fully integrate into the culture.


Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
Why is this an issue of fortitude?

The history of the world is replete with the migration of people from places of limited opportunity to a place where they can succeed. It is but a natural course of events that's been played out over and over again.

Forttitude is a strong word. What I meant is that many are far too comfortable with their current status to emigrate. From my own experience and many I know, our family was doing quiet well in India, the West offered even a greater opportunity to gain Wealth. My parents had to give it up and come to Canada to start again. Most Indians who emigrate out to US/Canada are the professionals who do quiet well in India.

You are right that the lines are countless at embassies of Indians wanting to emigrate to the west, but many recent immigrants I talk to still miss the old country. Many have packed up and moved back. Some still want the insanity of India instead of sanity of the west.

I have the fortune/misfortune of growing up in both cultures, so I have attachements both ways. For myself, I consider myself Canadian, and am culturally Canadian too, but something about India thats making me want to pack up and relocate. But the attachement to Canada is strong also.

Something about India****
The monsoons
Diwali
Holi
The Monsoons
The Mango Season
Mumbai

Something about Canada****
Clean
Toronto
Different Ethnicities and cultures
Toronto Maple Leafs
Toronto
Lick's Nature burges
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 17, 2006 8:22 pm

With all due respect to those who may differ, America is a country, not a gold mine. As I see it, if you immigrate to this country, you are obligated to make this country your home. You don't hope to strike it rich and then go back home. If you do, we have a term for that: "Visitor".

I do sympathize with immigrants who miss "the old country", but the ideal should never be to go back. It should be to stay; or else why would anyone welcome you as an equal?

By the same token, there is an old phrase: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". If you're here in this country, you do what Americans do.

Nevertheless, I do think that people should have the right to leave this country, however, for whatever reason they may have, as long as it is lawful.

Just my opinion.

[Edited 2006-05-17 13:29:50]
What's fair is fair.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Thu May 18, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 24):
breathe free....depends on which country you are talking about...with India, thats a bit rich....Many indians are willing to emigrate to West not because they are oppresed but because they want to make money. Many first generations Indians (I sorta am, emigrated here in Primary grade) love
US/Canada for the opportunity they have, but really don't consider it home.
Home will always be India. They don't fully integrate into the culture.

It's kinda sad to think that all some folks see here is an opportunity to cash in. It's quite easy to detect, though.

One of my fellow grad students at the U of Arkansas was here on a free ride from the US government....from a rich Delhi family, her father a judge in the courts, herself a barrister....and she could scarcely hide her contempt for the United States and everything in it, and her disappointment that her husband was only offered 60 k as a junior engineer somewhere in Austin Texas. Not a moment's appreciation to the people of the US who paid for this, either. And it cost plenty.

Does India give out free scholarships to rich gringos? I doubt it.

Are we wrong to think of people with that attitude as money grubbing contemptible swine?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Thu May 18, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 26):
Are we wrong to think of people with that attitude as money grubbing contemptible swine?

She may be a contemptible boor (or boar since we're on the topic of swine), but graduate fellowships (especially in the sciences) are not awarded to students on the basis of need. They're awarded to (a) attract the best students; and (b) to provide necessary research skills in academia so that Universities can publish and move up the rankings (and then qualify for additional research funds, both public and private). Thus, the relative wealth of your colleague is irrelevant. Moreover, American universities are challenged in finding suitable American students and, thus, have to look overseas for qualified students for their graduate research programs. I don't know what kind of graduate program your whiny and greedy friend was in, but if she had to do research and publish for her fellowship, its a quid pro quo. She provided the services for a payment. However, she does appear to be one of these spoiled Delhi brats.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Thu May 18, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 26):
One of my fellow grad students at the U of Arkansas was here on a free ride from the US government....from a rich Delhi family, her father a judge in the courts, herself a barrister....and she could scarcely hide her contempt for the United States and everything in it, and her disappointment that her husband was only offered 60 k as a junior engineer somewhere in Austin Texas. Not a moment's appreciation to the people of the US who paid for this, either. And it cost plenty.

Does India give out free scholarships to rich gringos? I doubt it.

This is unacceptable behaviour. Just a rich ungraceful brat. I knew quiet a few South Asians while in UNI who were on government backed loans to pay for school, who had no intention of ever paying back the loan, which the government would be responsible for. These jacka$$ had every intention of going back to the place of origin after schooling was complete, and leaving the country with a bad debt. They had such contempt for this country.

Many do try try to make this home, but the attachment to the old country is very strong.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 12:12 am

But we are not talking about the rest of asia for example China. They are coming up in the world, cities like Bejing and Shanghai are quite top class.

China is not a 3rd world country, actually considered 2nd world. But they do account for a significant amount of the worlds population so I guess people would not want to be immgrating there.

The thing is, there are a lot of money to be made in developing countries. Some people don't seem to realize that. There are alot of uptapped resources and potential in some 3rd world developing lands.
There is something special about planes....
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 28):
Many do try try to make this home, but the attachment to the old country is very strong.

Given that there are over 2 million of us in the US with an increasing number of citizens being added to the ranks, I reckon that the overwhelming majority do make the US home. I can't speak for Canada, of course.

As far as US Federal and State government loans are concerned, foreign students do NOT qualify for ANY such loans, so the situation you cite doesn't apply south of your border.

Failure to pay back a loan is an obnoxious trait. I hope that Canada enters into an arrangement with India to ensure that these criminals are held responsible. At the least, put them on a no entry list for Canada.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 26):
Does India give out free scholarships to rich gringos? I doubt it.

Actually, yes. Some rather generous ones available to any foreign national who applies (be they gringo or Aleutian Islanders).

The IITs (quite certainly one of the best science based universities in the world) and the IIMs (again ranked very high for MBA programs) have special reservations for foreign students. Of course, these foreign students must take the very tough entrance exams to get in. The cost borne by students who do get into the IITs is minimal (less than $ 100 annually), as the Indian government picks up the tab (supposedly close to $ 8,000 per student per year). To date only students from Asian, former East bloc, or African countries have applied, but as India becomes part of the global economic and cultural lexicon, I suppose it may attract students from other countries as well.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 3:04 am

A few of my Italian relatives returned to Italy after WWII to put what they learned to work. That was the exception, not the rule though. I think the same is true here.

With the American student drop out rate in IT degree programs in this country, we are creating a vacuum that cannot be turned off with India, Russia, and Eastern Europe. So many hard working highly degreed people wnating to come here and work, and all US students do is go for the easy degrees and bitch and moan when the dont get a entry level position for $80,000

Our company actively recruits in all three places because we, at any given point in time, have HUNDREDS of domestic open IT positions that are not fillable searching only in the US.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 3:25 am

Its not only Indians - many Chinese in Canada have returned both to HK SAR and the PRC itself. Economic immigration is hardly a recent trend, its just that now it is taking place to countries that only a few years ago were considered backwaters - but have been leading global economic growth for the past couple of decades. I'm also a reverse immigrant myself, moving from Canada to the UK (place of my father's birth).

Quoting LH477 (Reply 24):
Something about Canada****

You missed something:
-Taxes
-Taxes
-Taxes
-Corruption
-Lying politicians

 Smile
 
DETA737
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2000 3:47 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 3:35 am

I actually managed to find statistics on the emigration rates form the United States on the web, showing about 1% of the U.S. population emigrates every year. Though I'll admit net immigration more than makes up for this loss. http://www.prb.org/Content/Navigatio.../FAQ/Questions/U_S__Emigration.htm

Return migration is not a new phenomenon I think that it's just one of those things that is ignored by the mainstream, because it doesn't fit with the national myth of immigrants yearning to be free and to be American and forgetting about their past roots. The fact is I would say most people move to another country for economic reasons and there is very little political ideology involved unless they are refugees.

With globalisation people are able to move around as never before and most economists agree this is a good thing since it allows human capital to be used most effectively. I'm not quite sure why some Americans would say this makes people ungrateful though, that's quite a Soviet-style mentality. There was an article in the economist about this phenomenon a few years ago, I wish I could still cite this. I'm almost certain that as India prospers and some Indians choose to return from Canada, the U.S. or wherever they will be a benefit to both India and their former host countries, because the more India prospers the more it will trade with the United States.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 33):
I actually managed to find statistics on the emigration rates form the United States on the web, showing about 1% of the U.S. population emigrates every year. Though I'll admit net immigration more than makes up for this loss. http://www.prb.org/Content/Navigatio.../FAQ/Questions/U_S__Emigration.htm

Return migration is not a new phenomenon I think that it's just one of those things that is ignored by the mainstream, because it doesn't fit with the national myth of immigrants yearning to be free and to be American and forgetting about their past roots. The fact is I would say most people move to another country for economic reasons and there is very little political ideology involved unless they are refugees.

With globalisation people are able to move around as never before and most economists agree this is a good thing since it allows human capital to be used most effectively. I'm not quite sure why some Americans would say this makes people ungrateful though, that's quite a Soviet-style mentality. There was an article in the economist about this phenomenon a few years ago, I wish I could still cite this. I'm almost certain that as India prospers and some Indians choose to return from Canada, the U.S. or wherever they will be a benefit to both India and their former host countries, because the more India prospers the more it will trade with the United States.

Nice.....national myth, Soviet style attitude....got anything else you want to get off your chest there? I mean, you're in London so you know, right?

But it's the stuff about economic migration....that's fine I suppose....what would you make of my great grandparents, a German baker's apprentice and a housemaid, or Irish farmers from Nova Scotia? political? economic? It's not for you to say, because you really don't know why other people do stuff, do you?

In the end nobody can say why other folks do stuff. So to presume that you know or can judge is...well, presumptuous.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
DETA737
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2000 3:47 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 34):
Nice.....national myth, Soviet style attitude....got anything else you want to get off your chest there? I mean, you're in London so you know, right?

But it's the stuff about economic migration....that's fine I suppose....what would you make of my great grandparents, a German baker's apprentice and a housemaid, or Irish farmers from Nova Scotia? political? economic? It's not for you to say, because you really don't know why other people do stuff, do you?

In the end nobody can say why other folks do stuff. So to presume that you know or can judge is...well, presumptuous.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly, nowhere did I claim to speak for all people, I would never make generalisations and I never tend to use words such as "everyone" in my writing style. I am not quite sure what you're trying to get at by asking me what I'd make of your ancestors' occupations. However, I do stand by my earlier point that there is a national myth taught in the U.S. about immigration. A national myth is a commonly used phrase by historians for anecdote that is meant to inspire patriotism. It is usually an oversimplified story about a nation's past, most countries have them (France happens to have Joan of Arc). In the U.S. I would contend that one of these anecdotes taught from an early age is that America is a beacon of freedom and that people come to the U.S. mostly for political or religious freedom and become good Americans leaving behind their past. The "melting pot" idea goes along with this. For example most elementary school students are presented with is the Pilgrims escaping religious intolerance in England. In later history classes we are presented with images of Ellis Island and the huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

Now it takes critical thinking to dissect a national myth and find out the ignored facts. For instance, around half of the immigrants that came to the United States between 1880-1920 returned to their native lands. This is an overlooked fact because well it makes the national myth complex and offers contradictions. The Chinese Exclusion Act is another dent in the myth. Let's face it history is complex. I don't know why each individual immigrated to the U.S. and I don't claim to know why many emigrated. All I can do is come up with a thesis based on concrete evidence. I know for one many single men emigrated from places such as Italy would stay a few years and save up enough money to return home and build a house and family. Perhaps some who came were not as successful, while others made families in the U.S. and then there were others who were politically motivated.

My theory and that of some others is that economics were the motivating factor for most emigrants. If you look at the arrival statistics from each individual nation, you will notice that as that nation became wealthy and developed emigration to the U.S. (and other nations) declines. Emigration never drops off because there are other push and pull factors (family, individual interest in America etc.). You cited Germany as an example and I assume you were stating your grandparents emigrated from Germany, I don't claim to know the reasons they emigrated, but I would say that emigration from West Germany decreased dramatically after the wirtschaftwunder period that allowed Germans to enjoy a level of prosperity comparable to that of the U.S. emigration ended and the country became a destination for emigrants from other countries. The same happened more recently with Spain and Italy. India, Mexico, China, the Philippines among others are basically where Italy and Germany were in 1900 vis-a-vis the United States.

As for my comment on Soviet style mentality, I said that in reference to those who think that Americans or rather naturalised Americans who leave the country are traitors or have not contributed to the country. The Soviet Union heavilly restricted emigration and it seems that some (I'm not claiming any of the above posters are in that group) would do the same.

Also I made a mistake above it should be 0.1% not 1% for those who emigrate.
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Fri May 19, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 30):
Given that there are over 2 million of us in the US with an increasing number of citizens being added to the ranks, I reckon that the overwhelming majority do make the US home. I can't speak for Canada, of course.

As far as US Federal and State government loans are concerned, foreign students do NOT qualify for ANY such loans, so the situation you cite doesn't apply south of your border.

Failure to pay back a loan is an obnoxious trait. I hope that Canada enters into an arrangement with India to ensure that these criminals are held responsible. At the least, put them on a no entry list for Canada.

Many that I know will stayed here for decades, raise families, contribute to society, but always have yearning to go back. They tend to retire and spend 50% of the time in the old country, and 50% of the time here. But the desire to go back to India is strong. Everything from warm weather, family, the culture.

As for the loans, most were actually Paks...they were landed immigrants/refugees who took a free eduaction to the old country. Mind you most were from well to do families. They were milking the system. This really go to me becuase I had to finance myself through work to get through school becuase my parents weren't sufficiently poor enough. GOD I hate people who milk the system when there are others in need can't get the support necessary.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Sat May 20, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 35):
Also I made a mistake above it should be 0.1% not 1% for those who emigrate.

That alone makes your story more credible and serves to undercut much of what you were arguing for.

See, unlike you I do not believe that the prime motivator for human behavior is economics of the "lowest cost is best" or "I'm in it for me" variety is what moves people to do things....I've been in the business I'm in long enough to realize that jeremy Bentham's calculus of pleasure vs pain and Adam smith's invisible hand are ways to rationalize or make the unknowable sensible to us.
And there's no way to read the wilderness of the human heart.

Personally I am tired of people picking out three points in a line and making extrapolations and deducing rules of a general nature and universal application about human behavior.

The problem with economics (as we understand that in this day and age) is, and I do not expect you to believe this either, is that there are nearly 300 million people in the US give or take and 7-8 billion in the world. To presume to know, beyond some general notions, why they behave as they do, and then to generalize about it on top of that is the acme of misguided thinking. The anthropologists do a much better job.

Now. I fully expect you to deluge me with nearly as much in the way of reasons as Mrocktor did with his Ayn Rand derived philosophy. He said he was right because he was logical and rational. You might point me to the dreary tomes of a dozen economists and I will never be convinced that their opinions are ideology disguised as revealed truth.

nevermind. I have spoken of this far too long.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Sat May 20, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 33):
Return migration is not a new phenomenon I think that it's just one of those things that is ignored by the mainstream, because it doesn't fit with the national myth of immigrants yearning to be free and to be American and forgetting about their past roots.

This is true. My brother-in-law is German, and he got transfered to California. After 10 years, he got transfered home. Not everyone wants to stay in the US.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 23, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 26):
It's kinda sad to think that all some folks see here is an opportunity to cash in. It's quite easy to detect, though.

One of my fellow grad students at the U of Arkansas was here on a free ride from the US government....from a rich Delhi family, her father a judge in the courts, herself a barrister....and she could scarcely hide her contempt for the United States and everything in it, and her disappointment that her husband was only offered 60 k as a junior engineer somewhere in Austin Texas. Not a moment's appreciation to the people of the US who paid for this, either. And it cost plenty.

I don't think that there is a country more generous to newcomers than the United States, so it's disappointing to me when folks don't appreciate all that this country has to offer.

By comparison, it's next to impossible to immigrate legally to countries such as Germany or Sweden, as I've been told.
What's fair is fair.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 23, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 30):
The IITs (quite certainly one of the best science based universities in the world) and

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Apologies, I was going to respond this seriously...
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 23, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 39):
By comparison, it's next to impossible to immigrate legally to countries such as Germany or Sweden, as I've been told.

Look no further than Mexico. Here's a little something from my blog, The Dougloid Papers today.

Immigration Equity in a Nutshell: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Emigration to Mexico

There's an AP story out today that appeared in the Des Moines Register that makes some interesting comparisons between the emigration policy of the U.S. (or the lack thereof) and that of Mexico, which is well developed. In view of the hue and cry over extralegal immigration to the states, it should be of interest to fair minded and right thinking folks everywhere. It's most interesting because the politicos in Mexico are fond of beating up on Uncle Sugar for being a xenophobe or worse, a racist. Let's do the math.

In particular:

In the US, only two political positions, the President and the Vice President, are reserved for native born Americans. In Mexico, the foreign born cannot hold a seat in congress, state legislatures, sit on the supreme court, or become a governor like Arnold Schwarzenegger. A non native cannot join the military or the merchant marine in Mexico. Numerous state and city ordinances ban non native Mexicans from holding jobs like police and firefighters, and these are descended from model ordinances ever so thoughtfully passed around by the party apparatchiks in the Big City who of course, would never discriminate against anyone, would they?

Foreign born citizens make up 0.5 per cent of Mexico's population, compared to about 13 per cent in the much maligned and vilified Gringo Republic to the North. Mexico naturalizes about 3,000 people a year, which is about one day's production of illegals in Yuma. The U.S., by comparison, naturalizes about half a million legals every year.

And yet.....and yet....Uncle Sugar is the bad guy here?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
trvyyz
Posts: 1331
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:19 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 23, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 40):
Apologies, I was going to respond this seriously...

Seems like you got a b.tech from there  Cool only a guess Wink
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 23, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 42):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 40):
Apologies, I was going to respond this seriously...

Seems like you got a b.tech from there only a guess

I am afraid that will have to remain a secret  Wink
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Tue May 23, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 33):
Return migration is not a new phenomenon I think that it's just one of those things that is ignored by the mainstream, because it doesn't fit with the national myth of immigrants yearning to be free and to be American and forgetting about their past roots. The fact is I would say most people move to another country for economic reasons and there is very little political ideology involved unless they are refugees.

Cant agree with that, unless you have lived in a facist or other oppressive government, you simply cannot understand.

Almost all the Italians in this country now have ancestors who came here to escape both oppression and poverty. Its that two sided sword that gets people to leave thier roots. The Irish on the other hand came here to escape famine and poverty. It usually takes more than just one thing to make that big step.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 24, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 42):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 40):
Apologies, I was going to respond this seriously...

Seems like you got a b.tech from there only a guess

Seems like he couldn't get in.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Reverse Immigration USA-India

Wed May 24, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 45):
Seems like he couldn't get in.

Good try!  Wink

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