AerospaceFan
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Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 9:03 am

(Summary -- Rush and telegraphic paraphrase. [Italiczation provided to highlight summary and descriptive nature of posting. Comments are in bracketed italicized boldface.])

The President is outlining the problems brought by illegal immigration. He adds a proviso: Immigrants are good people.

Objectives: U.S. must secure its borders. [Aha -- first use of term "illegal immigrants".] He's describing how he's sent home six million illegal immigrants. Acknowledges deficiencies. Calls on Congress to provide dramatic increases in manpower and funding. New manpower: 6,000. He says he will have doubled the size of the border control. More high-tech will be used. But, he says, this will take time.

As new Border Patrol agents are be trained, there will be 6,000 National Guardsman deployed in support roles in conjunction with several Governors. They will not apprehend illegal aliens. This interim arrangement will last for one year.

Every illegal alien must be returned home.

We must end the "catch and release" program in favor of such alternatives as detention. Foreign governments must take back their illegal emigrants. Deterrent value as word spreads of this new initiative.

Secondly, a temporary worker program. [Here we go. This is a nonstarter with me.] Temporary workers must return home after the terms of their stay.

Thirdly, employers must be held to their obligations not to hire illegal aliens. Must be a better verification system, including a new identification card for every legal worker.

Fourth, illegal immigrants already here should not be given an automatic path to citizenship. ["Not"? Interesting....] We should not, however, engage in mass deportations. Rather, illegal immigrants should be made to pay a meaningful penalty, pay taxes, hold jobs, and otherwise pay their debt to society, to demonstrate their suitability to become citizens; approval for citizenship would not be automatic.

Fifth, cultural assimilation is to be expected on issues of language, knowledge of American history, and so forth.

The President is asking Congress to present him with a comprehensive immigration bill. Civility is required. America is a nation of immigrants, etc.

Heartwarming story about brave Marine who asked to become a U.S. citizen. America is the hope of many, etc. "We trust in our country's genius."

[Not a great speech, by any measure. Disappointing. Not enough. His "path to citizenship", while not automatic, is still too generous. Illegal immigrants should be required to leave the country before applying for citizenship.]


[Edited 2006-05-16 02:26:38]
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 9:21 am

I think that was one of the best speeches he's ever given. As far as the content, it's a start. There's a lot to be hashed out, but at least we know where he stands.

Mark
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
I think that was one of the best speeches he's ever given. As far as the content, it's a start. There's a lot to be hashed out, but at least we know where he stands.

I certainly welcome his attention to this issue, but I disagree that mass deportations should be ruled out of hand. As this juncture, it's a matter for interpretation whether his program in fact proposes them, despite what he said. If citizenship is not automatic, then it stands to reason that a significant number of those who do not qualify for citizenship would have to go.

Further, I believe the Senate version of the proposed bill would require that those illegal immigrants here for less than two years must be deported. This could include hundreds of thousands.

I suppose it depends on what is meant by "mass deportation".

[Edited 2006-05-16 02:34:04]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
As far as the content, it's a start.

Yes, finally. I do wonder how they're going to rotate 6,000 NG in and out of duty every two/three weeks. This seems like a real weak spot in the plan (especially in light of Bush not funding the build-up of border patrol officers authorized by Congress two years ago). My earlier stated support for the NG to play a part didn't envision a rotation at all.
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11Bravo
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
I think that was one of the best speeches he's ever given. As far as the content, it's a start. There's a lot to be hashed out, but at least we know where he stands.

I agree Mark, very good for a Bush speech. I can't stand the man, but at least it's a start.

Quoting Dubya (Thread starter):
Thirdly, employers must be held to their obligations not to hire illegal aliens. Must be a better verification system, including a new identification card for every legal worker.

This is the nexus of this issue really. We cannot change the dynamic of illegal immigration without effectively addressing the demand side of the market. Bush's well established record of supporting big business has dominated so much of the domestic policy arena, it's a little hard for me to think he's going to really crack down on violators. I'll believe it when I see it.
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bushpilot
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
As far as the content, it's a start. There's a lot to be hashed out, but at least we know where he stands.

I think its to little to late, if he was serious about this war on terror, and more interested in keeping us safer he would have done this Sept12,01. Instead he was more interested in the latino vote. Nothing like a lame duck president to try and clean up the mess after it has been spilled and stuck to the kitchen floor.
If he is going to post 6,000 NG members, is that enough? Nope. Another half assed attempt to do something that should have been done a long time ago. If he was going to do this, make it at least a division...per border state. I see him making the same mistake as he did in Iraq with not having enough troops to do the job needed when they are needed.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
I do wonder how they're going to rotate 6,000 NG in and out of duty every two/three weeks

Since the 6000 Guardspersons are but some 3% of the total Guard Force, Army and Air Guard, having the troops available isn't necessarily the issue . . . but the numbers in each state present a problem.

Guardmen from other states could patrol the borders in any of the Southwestern States, but . . . it would require an interstate Memorandum of Understanding between the two states, since the Guard works under the Command of the Governor . . . .

Now, if the Troops are Federalized, then this is not an issue as they would now fall under Rummy and the DoD and PotUS.

. . . .

All in all a decent speech, a good start in illegal immigration that should have happened 40 years ago . . . we'll see how this goes and if it is effective.

My gut feeling . . . it's not enough. Using the troops solely as support isn't going far enough. They should be right out on the border with the Border Patrol. IMO we haven't effectively increased our forces on the border by simply moving some Border Patrol agents out of offices and into a few vehicles. The troops have some of the most sophisticated equipment known for GSR (Ground Surveillance Radar) and Night Vision, and if I understand correctly, that won't be used.

Still, it's a start.

Now, other than the troops . . .

I'm glad there was definitely a mention that Illegal Immigrants will NOT be granted citizenship automatically . . .

I'm glad the businesses the knowingly employ them will take a hit - I'm skeptical about how effectively this will be enforced.

The guest worker program has to be effective and workable, and when the jobs done, the worker goes home. That keeps the workers employed and keeps them legal . . . seems to me it's a win/win.

Lastly, the Cultural Assimilation . . . that's a hot ticket for me. Perhaps we can start displaying the US Flag at some of our schools again??? Perhaps I'll be able to hit a 7/11 and be able to communicate with the clerk? If I moved anywhere in the world, I'd be expected to assimilate into the culture . . . why should it be different here?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Since the 6000 Guardspersons are but some 3% of the total Guard Force, Army and Air Guard, having the troops available isn't necessarily the issue . . . but the numbers in each state present a problem.

I understand that part, but I'm also looking at the logistics of sending NG troops from all over the nation to the border every couple of weeks. It was my assumption, possibly naively, that the proposal would be funding each state's troops to do longer term tours.

After I did my first post, one of the TV pundits calculated this out to involving some 300,000 troops over two years.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
I understand that part, but I'm also looking at the logistics of sending NG troops from all over the nation to the border every couple of weeks. It was my assumption, possibly naively, that the proposal would be funding each state's troops to do longer term tours.

Hmmm, I think that pundit (just like most of them) is using fuzzy math . . .

6000 troops, rotated every 90 days, for three years is only 72000 troops . . . where the hell that pundit got 300000 I'll never figure out.

Logistically, it will be a tad difficult, but not doable.

They will likely bring their own vehicles. But things such as lodging, fuel, maintenance, etc can be handled at National Guard bases that are prevelent throughout each state.

Maybe Halliburton will get the feeding contract  duck .

The logistics wil lbe a hurdle, but definitely easier than some believe. The difficulty IMO will be troops morale . . . more time away from home . . .
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AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
6000 troops, rotated every 90 days, for three years is only 72000 troops . . . where the hell that pundit got 300000 I'll never figure out.

Hmm, I heard every two weeks in the speech, which is the number a few have been tossing around. I'd have to check the transcript to be sure.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
Hmm, I heard every two weeks in the speech, which is the number a few have been tossing around. I'd have to check the transcript to be sure.

Every two weeks . . . .

Well that ups the ante - and IMO is not doable . . . . you'd have more troops moving from home to the border than you'd have on the border.

BUT, there's a reason for that. . . . under federal law, and troops mobilized for over 179 days automatically begin to recieve "benefits", commensurate with their federal rank and status.

Furthermore . . . the National Guard has a two week Active Duty period they serve each year. The government may anticipate using this two week period for border duty. Bad call IMO, as they should use that two week period for preparations for deployment to the big sand box . . .

However. . . I'm not running this show.

Should we consolidate our conversations into one thread or the other?  wink 
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AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 12:11 pm

Well, let's remember not to believe everything we hear on TV (even if a congressman says it too, LOL):

From the speech:

"The Guard will assist the Border Patrol by operating surveillance systems analyzing intelligence installing fences and vehicle barriers building patrol roads and providing training. Guard units will not be involved in direct law enforcement activities that duty will be done by the Border Patrol. This initial commitment of Guard members would last for a period of one year."

No clear determination on the length of each deployment.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Should we consolidate our conversations into one thread or the other?

Yes, please. How about the other?  Smile
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Yes, please. How about the other?

 checkmark 
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MDorBust
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Not a great speech, by any measure. Disappointing.

Really? You were disappointed with Bush... I don't think that makes my list of shockers.

Now, the exact opposite... that would be stunning indeed.
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TedTAce
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/1

Tue May 16, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
If I moved anywhere in the world, I'd be expected to assimilate into the culture . . . why should it be different here?

As socially liberal as I am, I have to say because we are a bunch of PC Panzies. I am game with calling people of African decent African Americans, Cubans Cuban Americans, Indians Hindi's and American Indians Native Americans, but God Damn it, if your serving me a Slurpie I want to hear your communication that is intended for me in effing ENGLISH!!!

http://img94.exs.cx/img94/2640/Engli...h_Motherfucker_Do_You_Speak_It.jpg

[Edited 2006-05-16 12:45:43]
This space intentionally left blank
 
Gilligan
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Tue May 16, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
As new Border Patrol agents are be trained, there will be 6,000 National Guardsman deployed in support roles in conjunction with several Governors.

Read support roles. That could mean anything but he specifically said they would not be patrolling. So theoretically they could be passing out water and food. My guess is they will be operating ground surveillance radar sights and helping to set up the electronic wall that has been mentioned many times.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Thirdly, employers must be held to their obligations not to hire illegal aliens. Must be a better verification system, including a new identification card for every legal worker.

This must happen to avoid mass deportations which would look incredibly bad in the world press. If a temporary worker card can be issued in their home country with tamper proof technology, and employers are required to buy the equipment to read it, then illegal workers will have no choice but return home to obtain the card. The penalty for an employer not using the system has to be severe though if it is to achieve it's stated effect.
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WestWing
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/1

Wed May 17, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Dubya:
Illegal immigration puts pressure on public schools and hospitals, it strains state and local budgets, and brings crime to our communities.

Do illegal immigrants, statistically speaking, commit more crimes than US Citizens?
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11Bravo
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 15):
This must happen to avoid mass deportations which would look incredibly bad in the world press. If a temporary worker card can be issued in their home country with tamper proof technology, and employers are required to buy the equipment to read it, then illegal workers will have no choice but return home to obtain the card. The penalty for an employer not using the system has to be severe though if it is to achieve it's stated effect.

Well said. I find it very heartening that there is such apparent solidarity on the issue of illegal immigration from almost all points of the political spectrum. I hope our politicians take notice of that unity and start formulating truly effective policy to deal with the problem. Too often in the past this issue has been addressed with utterly useless policy. That needs to change.

It is very rare indeed that Gilligan and I agree on much at all. Opponents of immigration reform would be well advised to understand that this is a problem that virtually all Americans are determined to fix regardless of their political leanings.
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redngold
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 2:51 am

My impression of the speech:

No wonder people are accusing our government of racism and classism in immigration. He failed to mention - not even once - "our nothern boundary" - which is longer and less stringently patrolled.
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11Bravo
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 18):
He failed to mention - not even once - "our nothern boundary" - which is longer and less stringently patrolled.

That's probably because the subject of the speech was illegal immigration not border length or patrol density. Our border with Canada simply isn't relevant to the discussion of illegal immigration. Only a small handful of people cross that border illegally. If that were true with our southern border, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem.
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cfalk
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
As new Border Patrol agents are be trained, there will be 6,000 National Guardsman deployed in support roles in conjunction with several Governors. They will not apprehend illegal aliens.

Then WTF is the point of having them there?!?!?

There should be 30,000 troops on the southern border. That's 3 divisions, one of which is completely online at any one time, the other two on other shifts or in rotating reserve. That should provide 2 sets of eyes for every crossable mile of border, taking into account backup and HQ functions.
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11Bravo
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
There should be 30,000 troops on the southern border. That's 3 divisions,

Not to pick nits, but that would be approximately two US Army divisions.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
That should provide 2 sets of eyes for every crossable mile of border

Have you ever been to the US-Mexico border? There are huge portions of it where terrain and cover would render that sort of density completely ineffective.
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scbriml
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 14):
God Damn it, if your serving me a Slurpie I want to hear your communication that is intended for me in effing ENGLISH!!!

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cfalk
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 21):
Not to pick nits, but that would be approximately two US Army divisions.

You're right. An American infantry division is bigger than 10K

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 21):
Have you ever been to the US-Mexico border? There are huge portions of it where terrain and cover would render that sort of density completely ineffective.

That's right. Some places are almost uncrossable. But you spread them out accordingly. Big Bend won't need so many, but you put a guy every 200 yards in southern california.

My point is that sending 6,000 troops, not all of whom will be on duty (sleeping, on leave, whatever), is almost as bad as doing nothing. If you are going to do it, do it right, not half-assed.
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DrDeke
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/1

Wed May 17, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 17):
I hope our politicians take notice of that unity and start formulating truly effective policy to deal with the problem. Too often in the past this issue has been addressed with utterly useless policy. That needs to change.

I don't think that most Republican nor Democratic politicians actually want to stop illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is, after all, good for the rich who can hire illegal immigrant labor at illegally cheap rates.

-DrDeke
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11Bravo
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
My point is that sending 6,000 troops, not all of whom will be on duty (sleeping, on leave, whatever), is almost as bad as doing nothing. If you are going to do it, do it right, not half-assed.

I agree. I think it's very questionable whether that would have any effect at all. More broadly, I think physical border control probably shouldn't be our highest priority here simply because it would require enormous resources to do that.

I think if our immigration reform is going to rely primarily on border enforcement we better get the big checkbook out because that means, not 6,000 new Border Patrol Officers as the president suggested, but more like 60,000. Add to that several billion dollars of fencing and surveillance equipment. I suppose all that's possible, but it would be at great cost.

We do need to have more effective border security there is no doubt, but the real solution to illegal immigration, IMO, is to reduce the demand through employer enforcement. Obviously that's not easy or simple either, but it would probably be more effective and cost a whole lot less as a primary strategy to deal with the problem.
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dragon-wings
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 5:00 am

I was reading this article at cnn http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/16/immigration/index.html and in the second to last paragraph it says "No more than 6,000 troops will be used during any given week, but the "share the pain" plan will draw from units all around the United States, Blum said. Every National Guard soldier is required to attend a 15-day training camp each year to focus on his or her military specialty, but this duty will replace that, Blum said."

So if the National Guard replaces their regular training with the border patrol duty when will the National Guard train for duty in Iraq?
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dragon-wings
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 5:19 am

One more question. Are these troop going to be permanent? Or just temporary until they can hire more boarder patrol agents?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 27):
One more question. Are these troop going to be permanent? Or just temporary until they can hire more boarder patrol agents?

Did you not read any of this thread or any of the links?  sarcastic 

One Year Program.
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dragon-wings
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 28):
Did you not read any of this thread or any of the links?

Thanks. And your right I should of read the thread more carefully.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 29):
Thanks. And your right I should of read the thread more carefully.

Apologies for jumping on you . . .

Was reading the AA Hits the Pentagon threads and answering three threads at once . . . . trying NOT to let my BP exceed tolerance . . .

It's a one year program . . . it'll go longer, but it's schedule for year to start off . . . the troops will be used in a support role apparently. I don't believe that, but that's the plan.

They have assets such as GSR (Ground Surveillance Radars) that can see the illegal immigrants as the approach the border, etc.

Apologies again. . . .
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AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 6:15 am

Sen. Ted Kennedy on the floor of the Senate today:

"I agree with the President."
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Sen. Ted Kennedy on the floor of the Senate today:

"I agree with the President."

maybe that'll shut Nancy Pelosi's shit hole as she spouted about how bad this idea is . . .and Aahhhnold doesn't like, neither does Bill Richardson . . . surprises . . .

Richardson is a pig farmer from Iowa (sarcastic} and Ahhhnold got most of his votes from the hispanic power base . . . .

 scratchchin 

I'm still confused I guess . . . we have people protesting against want us to make them enter the country legally, and they're protesting INSIDE the country??!!!???!!!

Why aren't they on a gawddamn bus to Tijuana!?!?!?!?!?

AR385 could give them an "Escape and Evasion Map" so they can get back home. Maybe, with all his vast experiece with US Visas, etc . . . so he says . . . he could develope a pamphlet on how to legally enter the country with a step by step instruction on how it's done properly and really help his supposed fellow country persons.
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redngold
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 19):
If that were true with our southern border, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem

The problem is that, as logical as it seems to you to not comment on the northern border, it seems logical to the new "largest minority group" in the U.S. - Hispanics - that the problem of illegal immigration is only a problem because of racism and classism.

Illegal immigrants across the northern border do not attract as much attention, but when was the last time we arrested a suspected terrorist crossing the southern border? Can you think of one? I can think of one crossing the northern border - Ahmed Ressam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Ressam
http://edition.cnn.com/1999/US/12/23/border.arrest.01/
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11Bravo
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 33):
The problem is that, as logical as it seems to you to not comment on the northern border, it seems logical to the new "largest minority group" in the U.S. - Hispanics - that the problem of illegal immigration is only a problem because of racism and classism.

I understand what you're saying, perhaps Bush should have said something about the northern border as well to be PC, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. The southern border with Mexico is the source of almost all of the illegal aliens entering the US. That's where the problem is, and that's where any potential solutions need to be applied.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 33):
Illegal immigrants across the northern border do not attract as much attention, but when was the last time we arrested a suspected terrorist crossing the southern border? Can you think of one? I can think of one crossing the northern border - Ahmed Ressam.

I really think that's beside the point. Ressam wasn't trying to cross illegally. He attempted to enter at Port Angeles with explosives and bomb making materials through a normal port of entry. There is no doubt that we need to be vigilant and take precautions to prevent terrorists from entering the country, and there are things that need to be improved in that regard, but I think that's outside the scope of immigration reform.

The bottom-line here is that massive unregulated illegal immigration isn't good for this country, and ultimately it's not very good for the immigrants either. Some people may well have racist motives for their objection, but speaking for myself, I don't care if they're Hispanic, Norwegian, or whatever. I want it stopped.
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AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 9:31 am

Just as I suspected -- the President has only contributed to a sense of alienation among his base, and there are those on the left who criticize him as well.

Way to prove the truth of the following paraphrase: Be ye hot, or be ye cold, as may be; but be ye warm and tepid, then I spit thee out.[Edit ^1]

Something like that.

Splitting the difference doesn't even work that well in bowling, Mr. President.

___________________________________________________________
[EDIT:] 1. Or, better still:

Quote:
In Rev 3:15,16 He
makes the following statement;

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I
would thou wert cold or hot. So, then, because you art luke-
warm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth."

Source:

http://www.godlygames.com/ostudies/ostudy14.htm

[Edited 2006-05-17 02:55:10]
What's fair is fair.
 
cfalk
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting Redngold (Reply 33):
The problem is that, as logical as it seems to you to not comment on the northern border, it seems logical to the new "largest minority group" in the U.S. - Hispanics - that the problem of illegal immigration is only a problem because of racism and classism.

 redflag  redflag  redflag  redflag  redflag 

Stop pulling the race card without any legitimate cause. Canada and the US have similar standards of living. You do not have millions of Canadians crossing the border to work illegally. That's why it's not so much of a problem.
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AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 5:51 pm

Agreed. Clearly the issue is not race, and should not be. I question whether Hispanics can be deemed a race, at any rate. As I understand it, even as to those who would racially classify, there are some Hispanics who are considered Caucasians, and others who are considered Mestizos, and others who are considered purebred Native Americans.
What's fair is fair.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
My point is that sending 6,000 troops, not all of whom will be on duty (sleeping, on leave, whatever), is almost as bad as doing nothing. If you are going to do it, do it right, not half-assed.

Well he said they will not be on patrol, rather they will be operating in support roles that he left undefined. There are certainly large areas where the Guard could make use of ground radar to survey the border and then radio illegal crossings to border patrol. That would reduce the number of troops needed in foxholes as you suggested. I think at some point a real fence would be impractical but a hi tech sound and light monitoring system would be far more appropriate and cost effective.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 25):
We do need to have more effective border security there is no doubt, but the real solution to illegal immigration, IMO, is to reduce the demand through employer enforcement

Unfortunately you have a lot of "employers" that aren't brick and mortar businesses. A fair amount of illegals subsist off day labor jobs and as domestics. Enforcing them is like enforcing the speed limit, you can only catch one at a time and while you're writing that ticket the rest of the population is speeding by. It's a double edged sword and both sides will probably require equal attention at least in the beginning. BTW, glad to see we could at least agree on something!  champagne 

[Edited 2006-05-17 14:24:04]
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 38):
domestics

Have you ever hired a domestic, so you'd be familiar with the process?
International Homo of Mystery
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 39):
Have you ever hired a domestic, so you'd be familiar with the process?

Nope, that doesn't change the fact that they are out there though. Come on down to Houston and I'll drive you through the Post Oak section someday about 5pm and we'll pay particular attention to the bus stops. In the morning we can check out the day laborers lined up on Kuykendahl or Stubner-Airline. Never have hired one myself and after seeing what Zoe Baird went through, I think I'll stick to cleaning my own stuff.

These people will not be affected by a temporary worker card since they are not applying at a traditional business and get paid in cash. Which, of course, is the way they and their employers want it so everybody stays under the radar.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 40):
Nope, that doesn't change the fact that they are out there though

Well the point is is that domestics don't line up outside Linens N Things, like day laborers line up outside Home Depot.

If you understood how domestics, like a vast majority of illegals, are hired, you'd see how small the day laborer problem is in relation to the big picture, and how bad of an analogy you made.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):
If you understood how domestics, like a vast majority of illegals, are hired,



Quoting Gilligan (Reply 38):
A fair amount of illegals subsist off day labor jobs and as domestics.

A "fair" amount does not imply a majority. Since no true numbers are available I go by what I see. What I see here in Houston is a fair amount by my judgement. I stand by my analogy since those people will not be affected by any sort of employer hiring reform.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Wed May 17, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 42):
I stand by my analogy since those people will not be affected by any sort of employer hiring reform.

"Those people". LOL

Regardless, it appears there is less of a want to understand the issue rather than validating a misconception, so I will let it lay where it is.
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Corsair2
Posts: 243
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Thu May 18, 2006 1:14 am

Bush again is proving himself to be a moron. These illegal immigrants are doing all the shit jobs that us Americans don't want to do. After all, who would be cleaning all the hotel rooms in Las Vegas? Not me for sure.

Bush should be focused on cleaning up the dirty war he started three years ago. Tired of seeing twenty year olds coming home in coffins.
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector Victor?"
 
cfalk
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Thu May 18, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Corsair2 (Reply 44):
Bush again is proving himself to be a moron.

Not so much as someone who spouts off simplistic propaganda slogans.

Quoting Corsair2 (Reply 44):
These illegal immigrants are doing all the shit jobs that us Americans don't want to do.

That's a myth. You can get any job done, as long as you are willing to pay a decent wage, and comply with worker's health and safety standards.

What illegal immigrants allow is the payment of substandard wages, with no health/safety regulations, no workers' rights - basically a class of people just a step above slavery. I take it this is what you want?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Corsair2
Posts: 243
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Thu May 18, 2006 2:57 am

Any president who hires a comedian to do immitations of himself for PR is a moron! Case closed.
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector Victor?"
 
Georgetown
Posts: 280
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/1

Thu May 18, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 4):
We cannot change the dynamic of illegal immigration without effectively addressing the demand side of the market.
This is one of the most deadly accurate comments posted, I agree.

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 24):
Illegal immigration is, after all, good for the rich who can hire illegal immigrant labor at illegally cheap rates.

Asinine.

Quoting Corsair2 (Reply 44):
Bushrnagain is proving himself to be a moron. These illegal immigrants arerndoing all the shit jobs that us Americans don't want to do. After all,rnwho would be cleaning all the hotel rooms in Las Vegas? Not me for sure.
Simplistic.

Bush'srnspeech was excellent in that it highlighted and created a generalrnframework to solve the three main issues at hand. Before I really getrninto this, the issue of illegal immigration is an issue that needs tornbe taken on by pragmatic problem solvers on both sides of the isle. Irnthink to a large extent, we are seeing a lot more bipartisan pragmatismrnon this issue than we do with most - which is encouraging. There are,rnof course, extremist views on both sides which luckily have been marginalized in the minds of most people.

IssuernOne: As acknowledged, the boarder between the US and Mexico is arnsubstantially permeable one. In order to solve the issue within the US,rnwe need to isolate the problem - stop the leak - so to speak. Increasedrnborder security, on both a personnelrnand infrastructural level is a must. This will take time. In thernmeantime, we need to do what we can to create a patch that will atrnleast aid the problem until something more permanent is in place. ThernNational Guard, while probably imperfect, is a good resource with whichrnto begin the process. Keep in mind this plan will change and bernmodified as it reaches increasing degrees of clarity.

Issue Two and Three: Amnesty is obviously not a viable, or a fundamentally attractive option. There is, unfortunately, a small percentage of illegal immigrantsrnwho come here and live off of social welfare programs whilerndemonstrating little effort to gain financial independence. This is arnsmall percentage of illegal (and legal, I will also add) immigrants, but at the same time unacceptable. The US can't demonstrate that illegal immigration will be rewarded. Especially when so many try to immigrate legally - which can be a frustrating and slow process.

At the same time, the vast majority of illegal immigrantsrnhave come here to work hard to earn a better life for their familiesrnand themselves. Many have been here a long time, and are for allrnintents and purposes, model citizens. Our economy, while it hardlyrndepends upon them, does benefit in many respects. So on a social,rneconomic, and purely logistical scale, a mass deportation is hardly arnviable or attractive option. What the plan being called for now does,rnis work to solve this problem. Giving illegal immigrants who have been here a long time, and have worked in a hard and honest manner, the opportunityrnto gain citizenship by demonstrating a commitment to society is bothrnsocially palatable and economically palatable. What it does is bringsrneverything out in the open and forces everyone's cards on the table. Nornlonger having to live in the fear of deportation, certain illegal immigrantsrncan work and pay taxes - all out in the open - just like any ordinaryrncitizen. If they do this consistently they can become one. Theyrnbenefit, and the government benefits. For those that choose not to dornthis, deportation is, and should be, immediate.

As was noted, enforcement is difficult. Demand-side enforcement is a must. Penalties for employers of unregistered illegal immigrants, or employers who simply pay under the tablernmust be non-negotiable and harsh enough to deter calculated riskrntaking. This gives employers the dis-incentive to hire illegal immigrants, and gives illegal immigrantsrnthe incentive to come out in the open and register with the governmentrnso that they can work. Bear in mind that anything outside this systemrnis grounds for swift deportation of an illegal immigrant, and devastating penalties for employers.

At the end of the day, the goal is to A) Stop illegal immigration by getting control of our border B) Give those who have been here illegally, but have otherwise demonstrated hard workrnand honesty the chance to continue do demonstrate this in a effort tornbecome a full, contributing citizen of the US C) deport illegalrnimmigrants who simply tax the system, and do not demonstrate hard workrnand integrity in regards to law. We unfortunately are overburdened with individuals like this that are citizens (immigrants or citizens with roots that go back to 1776).

The plan proposed by the President set up a broad and pragmatically focused infrastructurernto solve the problem. It will evolve and take on greater specificityrnand clarity as it is developed. We're taking a step in the rightrndirection.

Edit for spelling.

[Edited 2006-05-17 21:05:06]
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Georgetown
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RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Thu May 18, 2006 4:06 am

For whatever reason, the spellcheker put a ton of "n"s into my post. Sorry!
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Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Running Commentary -- Presidential Address 5/15/06

Thu May 18, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Corsair2 (Reply 44):
Tired of seeing twenty year olds coming home in coffins.

What do you do, spot at Dover Air Force Base? And how would you know they are all 20 year olds?

Guess the President can do something you can't, focus on two problems at once.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!

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