tbar220
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Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 7:34 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

NBC News has learned that long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself — but never pulled the trigger.

In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.

The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council.

“Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn’t do it,” said Michael O’Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution.

Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe.

The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and the White House again killed it. By then the administration had set its course for war with Iraq.

“People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president’s policy of preemption against terrorists,” according to terrorism expert and former National Security Council member Roger Cressey.

In January 2003, the threat turned real. Police in London arrested six terror suspects and discovered a ricin lab connected to the camp in Iraq.

The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.

Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi’s operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

The United States did attack the camp at Kirma at the beginning of the war, but it was too late — Zarqawi and many of his followers were gone. “Here’s a case where they waited, they waited too long and now we’re suffering as a result inside Iraq,” Cressey added.


***

So how do you defend this one? Despite all the tough talk from the president about the war on terror, and all the tough talk about Bin Laden and Zarqawi, we see he has failed in another measure in this so called "war on terror". Makes me doubt his intentions when all the American people hear about is how we're fighting to destroy terrorism and protect our freedoms.

And the same people who butcher Clinton to this day for allegedly missing a chance to get Bin Laden, how do you propose to spin this one in a way to not make it negative for the Bush administration?
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
So how do you defend this one? Despite all the tough talk from the president about the war on terror, and all the tough talk about Bin Laden and Zarqawi, we see he has failed in another measure in this so called "war on terror". Makes me doubt his intentions when all the American people hear about is how we're fighting to destroy terrorism and protect our freedoms.

All of these were before the March 17th invasion. And all the intel would've been moot anyway, becuase we would've had to have gone before the UN Security Council, which would've alerted Zarqawi that an attack was iminent anyway. Furthermore, the coalition forces were only authorised to patrol the No-Fly Zone, not conduct air to ground operations unless coalition aircraft were fired upon. We can't just go in and mow down fields unless a war resolution is passed. Clinton sent some cruise missiles into Afghanistan, and Sudan in 1998 in an "alleged" retaliation for the US Embassy bombings in Africa without resolutions, and the US was condemned by the UNSC. It's no-win situation for the US. Catch my drift?

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.



Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and the White House again killed it.

Ya know Tbarr, there are lots of opponents of Bush that work on the National Security Council and that work at the Pentagon. That's a weak argument by MSNBC.
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cfalk
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
So how do you defend this one?

So now you are saying Bush should have attacked Iraq sooner? What about getting UN approval and all that?
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 7:59 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
So now you are saying Bush should have attacked Iraq sooner? What about getting UN approval and all that?

Nope, I'm saying that Zarqawi should have been either killed or captured. Apprehending one man and his minions doesn't require the invasion of a country.
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MDorBust
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 8:17 am

Can we accept this as an admission by the left that there were terrorist operations in Iraq?
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 3):
Apprehending one man and his minions doesn't require the invasion of a country.

Which means going into a sovereign country w/o that countries approval, thereby violating its sovereignty and eliciting another 'concern' from you regarding this administration. Catch my drift?
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 3):
Nope, I'm saying that Zarqawi should have been either killed or captured. Apprehending one man and his minions doesn't require the invasion of a country.

No, but taking military action does require a UN resolution, not to mention the blessings and the wisdom of UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan according to those on the looney left.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 8:27 am

This pretty much deflates the sails in the argument from the right that Clinton should have taken Bin Laden out when he was spotted by Predator drones in sovereign Afghanistan in 2000.
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
This pretty much deflates the sails in the argument from the right that Clinton should have taken Bin Laden out when he was spotted by Predator drones in sovereign Afghanistan in 2000

Yes it does. But it strenghtens the rights argument that Clinton should have accepted the Sudanese offer to take him in 1996, remember that?
 
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 8:43 am

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ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
Can we accept this as an admission by the left that there were terrorist operations in Iraq?

 faint 

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
This pretty much deflates the sails in the argument from the right that Clinton should have taken Bin Laden out when he was spotted by Predator drones in sovereign Afghanistan in 2000.

No it doesn't.

Should have hit them both . . . period.
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andessmf
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 9:04 am

What about this?

http://www.sudan.net/news/press/postedr/58.shtml

Please understand that I blame no one for the lapses that led to 9/11. I merely realize that humans do not live in the future and cannot correctly predict the future. But if we start blaming Bush for Zarqawi, then we can blame Clinton for Bin Laden.

And I do think that it is misstated that he was offered for extradition, the attached story gives another explanation.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
Sure do!

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mansoor_Ijaz
Bin Laden & Sudan
Commencing in 1996, Ijaz had a series of meetings with Sudan's president, Lt. Gen. Omar Hassan Bashir and the Islamic leader, Hassan Turabi and with Clinton administration officials including Sandy Berger. Both the United Nations and the U.S. Congress had imposed sanctions against the Sudanese government over the continued operation of terrorist groups on it soil. In February 1996 the U.S. government ordered the withdrawal of all its Embassy staff based on concerns about their security. (There were differences of opinion on how real the security threat was). [17] (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A61251-2001Oct2)

Ijaz argued the U.S. should adopt a policy of "constructive engagement" [18] (http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1997_hr/h970610i.htm) with Sudan and, in return for providing intelligence data on the terrorist groups and deporting Osama bin Laden to Saudi Arabia, ease the sanctions. Saudi Arabia refused to accept bin Laden. The U.S. government believed there were no legal grounds under which he could be indicted in U.S. courts at the time. On May 18 1996, under pressure from the U.S. government, the government of Sudan deported bin Laden. He then made his way to Afghanistan. [19] (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A61251-2001Oct2)

Subsequently, Sudan made further overtures via Ijaz in July 1996 and April 1997 to the U.S. offering counter-terrorism assistance and access to intelligence data. In September 1997 the Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright announced she was sending a team of U.S diplomats back to Sudan, a decision reversed a few days later.

In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon Ijaz and others accused the Clinton administration of having bungled an opportunity to catch bin Laden. [20] (http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/568) The accusations have been rejected by Clinton administration officials including Sandy Berger and Susan Rice.

The following year, others, such as the conservative website NewsMax and Fox News's Sean Hannity, went further than Ijaz and claimed that Sudan had offered to extradite bin Laden direct to the United States. [21] (http://www.newsmax.com/cgi-bin/showinside.pl?a=2002/8/10/230919) [22] (http://mediamatters.org/items/200406220008)[23] (http://mediamatters.org/items/200407230005) The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also known as the 9/11 Commission), stated that "former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States. Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim." [24] (http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_5.pdf)


Give it up, guys, nobody's going to win this argument. Wikipedia, nor is Media Hounds a credible source to legitimise this argument.
However, the firing of missile's into Afghanistan and Sudan was conducted without approval from the UN, produced zero results, and hit the Chinese Embassy in Sudan(Bin Laden apparently left the alleged terror camp days before the missile strikes).Clinton Administration officials disclosed, they had us OLD MAPS of Khartoum(a'hem, faulty intel). The Chinese Government blasted the US following this disclosure.
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
Can we accept this as an admission by the left that there were terrorist operations in Iraq?

Northern Iraq wasn't controlled by Saddam, remember?
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 13):
Northern Iraq wasn't controlled by Saddam, remember?

Well, he sure gassed the hell out of 'em now didn't he?

He damn sure had control after THAT little escapade.
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
All of these were before the March 17th invasion

So? Bush had already issued his doctrine of preemtive strikes. Still butt-kissing, Jack, as usual. Here is a guy who apparently HAD WMD-unlike Iraq itself, and the administration couldn't get it up? Uh, OK.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
And all the intel would've been moot anyway, becuase we would've had to have gone before the UN Security Council, which would've alerted Zarqawi that an attack was iminent anyway.

And now you use the U.N., which most of the time you want to contemptuously ignore, as a crutch and a miserable excuse for kissing Bush? Uh, OK.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Ya know Tbarr, there are lots of opponents of Bush that work on the National Security Council and that work at the Pentagon.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

What a crock of bull cookies that is. That's hysterical!

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
So now you are saying Bush should have attacked Iraq sooner?

No, no one is saying that, but if Bush wanted to follow his own doctrine, he should have, at least by the way conservatives think nowadays.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
Can we accept this as an admission by the left that there were terrorist operations in Iraq?

And? So?

Terrorists in Iraq were not the reason for going to war in Iraq, was it? Your point has no historical substance.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
No, but taking military action does require a UN resolution,

Gee, I thought the U.N. was to be scorned, ridiculed and ignored-except, I guess, when making excuses for Bush not taking out a terrorist when he had the chance.  rotfl 

Amazing!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
This pretty much deflates the sails in the argument from the right that Clinton should have taken Bin Laden out when he was spotted by Predator drones in sovereign Afghanistan in 2000.

Stop making the righties on here squirm. It's fun, but they may need some Preparation H pretty soon to stop the itch.  Big grin

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
Yes it does. But it strenghtens the rights argument that Clinton should have accepted the Sudanese offer to take him in 1996, remember that?

Another old, stale, worn-out right-wing falsehood, that has been refuted many times.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):
But if we start blaming Bush for Zarqawi, then we can blame Clinton for Bin Laden.

Not if the latter is completely false, can we?
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
And now you use the U.N., which most of the time you want to contemptuously ignore, as a crutch and a miserable excuse for kissing Bush? Uh, OK.

I still think the UN is irrelevant. But we're talking in the context of covert/special ops to take out Zarqawi, not Saddam Hussien. MSNBC is pointing out that an attack could've taken place. But IF!!! we had gone ahead and done that, we would've faced a condemnation vote on the floor of the UNSC, for going without passing a UN resolution which in the process would've compromised an operation, no longer making it a secret operation, thus jeopardising the special forces involved. We did propose a resolution to use force in Iraq, and it passed, The UNSC just voted against the timing, and our reasons for going ahead, when we did.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Gee, I thought the U.N. was to be scorned, ridiculed and ignored-except, I guess, when making excuses for Bush not taking out a terrorist when he had the chance.

Falcon, Bush went to the UN, several times. It's convenient you've forgotten that

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
So? Bush had already issued his doctrine of preemtive strikes. Still butt-kissing, Jack, as usual. Here is a guy who apparently HAD WMD-unlike Iraq itself, and the administration couldn't get it up? Uh, OK.

This thread has little to do with Saddam Hussien.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
What a crock of bull cookies that is. That's hysterical!

So you think that everyone who works at the Pentagon, the CIA, the NSA, is appointed by the current administration? Boy Falcon, you have alot to learn about the people who work at the Pentagon. With the exception of the military staff assigned, positions held at the places in question are there until they either quit, retire or are terminated. Many of the staffers there, including ones on the planning committees are usually holdovers from the past, previous administrations, and new blood gets slowly cycled through as people voluntarily move on.
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MDorBust
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
And? So?

Terrorists in Iraq were not the reason for going to war in Iraq, was it? Your point has no historical substance.

It was one of many reasons cited, and a favorite talking point of some lefties to attempt to claim that Iraq didn't have terrorist links.
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 12):
However, the firing of missile's into Afghanistan and Sudan was conducted without approval from the UN, produced zero results, and hit the Chinese Embassy in Sudan(Bin Laden apparently left the alleged terror camp days before the missile strikes).Clinton Administration officials disclosed, they had us OLD MAPS of Khartoum(a'hem, faulty intel).

Sure was faulty intel if Khartoum is in Yugoslavia!  rotfl 
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Sure was faulty intel if Khartoum is in Yugoslavia!

They hit the Chinese Embassy, and not the intended target.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 19):
They hit the Chinese Embassy, and not the intended target.

Yes, I'm aware, the one in Yugoslavia, not Sudan.
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
Yes, I'm aware, the one in Yugoslavia, not Sudan.

However, the firing of missile's into Afghanistan and Sudan was conducted without approval from the UN, produced zero results, and hit the ->.............<- in Sudan(Bin Laden apparently left the alleged terror camp days before the missile strikes).Clinton Administration officials disclosed, they had us OLD MAPS of Khartoum(a'hem, faulty intel).
Insert ->Asprin factory<- where Chinese Embassy was
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 16):
So you think that everyone who works at the Pentagon, the CIA, the NSA, is appointed by the current administration?

Anyone with any stripes is appointed by the administration in power. To that degree, yes. If you don't believe that, you're nuts.


Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):
It was one of many reasons cited

Wrong. It was one of the post-facto, "oops-there's-no-WMD-excuses", not a reason cited. That's just GOP revisionist history.

Just reinforces the opinion of many on here that there are more than a few who will excuse anything Bush does, and try to shrug it off. If it weren't so damned pitiful, it might be funny.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22):
Just reinforces the opinion of many on here that there are more than a few who will excuse anything Bush does, and try to shrug it off. If it weren't so damned pitiful, it might be funny.

JUST as pitiful as those that find it necessary to blame Bush for everything that occurs . . . no matter the circumstance and no matter the situation . .

Pot, Kettle, Black . . in a big way.
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jetjack74
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
Pot, Kettle, Black . . in a big way.

(Falcon)
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):

Is that a Chinese or Yugoslavian Chevy? Oi, I've a headache now.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
Chevy?

It's Chevy, does it matter?? biggrin 
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
It's Chevy, does it matter??

Short, sweet and  rotfl 
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 12:53 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
Oi, I've a headache now.

You're not alone.
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 1:54 pm



YOWza
 
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 29):

 checkmark 

Well said. Nuf Said . . .

S2D2 . . .
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
Well said. Nuf Said . . .

Definitely.  checkmark 




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Airlinerfreak
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 2:59 pm

Bush missed the chance to possibly lessen or stop the attacks of September 11

Bush missed the chance to get our approval

Bush missed the chance to be a president remembered for the good rather than the worse
 
tbar220
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 3:33 pm

Next time anybody whines or bitches about Clinton not getting Bin Laden, those of you bitching about this thread won't have a toe to stand on.

I guess I'm just proving my point, the hypocrisy here is mind boggling. Its ok to criticize Clinton for the exact same thing, but Lord forbid the same be said about Bush...
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
Next time anybody whines or bitches about Clinton not getting Bin Laden, those of you bitching about this thread won't have a toe to stand on.

Oh, sure I will . . . I think Clinton should have taken Bin Laden when he had the chance and Bush should have nailed Al-Zarqawi right off. . . . I think the equally dicked up . . .

We could have had black ops folks do the job on both of 'em and no one would be the wiser . . . .
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Fri May 19, 2006 11:53 pm

I'm curious: I've read the NBC editorial (It's more opinion piece than news) and I see no mention of a Presidential Finding.Perhaps Tbar can fill us in on when the Presidential Finding-declaring Abu Musab Zarqawi a substantial threat to the United States-was written ?

You DO know we would have had to have such a Finding before we could assassinate a foreign national on Iraqi soil ?

By the way, I have been assured -repeatedly and sometimes insultingly- there was no such thing as bioweapons activity in Iraq (once the Clinton administration left office). There was also no support for terrorist groups-in fact, nothing but peaceful Iraqis rushing about to comply with the latest burdensome UN sanction-strewing flower petals as they danced by.

Please ! (Snurf ! Sniffle !) Don't tell me I'm going to have to apply a whole new dialectic !
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 3):
Nope, I'm saying that Zarqawi should have been either killed or captured.

Probably wouldn't have been necessary if Clinton killed/captured OBL when he had the chance  Silly.
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maury
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 am

I had no idea that terrorist-hunting was a tit-for-tat sport...but it is on a.net!

Tbar relays a media report that claims Bush missed Al-Z. Soon enough, we're back to the usual "So? Clinton had bad aim first!"

Yammer on and on (and on) about how you (sniff) all wish for a higher level of discourse, but you can't actually live in the present and let your Commander in Chief be criticized in real-time -- always bringing up a counter-example of a Democrat making a mistake first The boring sameness of the reaction from our local reactionaries is...boring.

I know...you think criticism of Bush and his pals is boring too. Ya know what? Most Americans find the reasons for the criticism a bit repetitive too...the endless scandals and poor leadership...hence your leader's rather dismal approval rating (actually, semantically it's so low now that it would be more correct to call it a "disapproval rating" first.)

If -- when W finally retires to some gated condo somewhere -- he gets a speeding ticket, I hope some of you rush to post "Clinton was cited for speeding first!" Oh--wait, it's a driving error, so that'll be a Ted Kennedy crack from lil' Pudge, I forgot...
 
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
I guess I'm just proving my point, the hypocrisy here is mind boggling. Its ok to criticize Clinton for the exact same thing, but Lord forbid the same be said about Bush...

You realize you ARE the problem.
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tbar220
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 34):
Oh, sure I will . . . I think Clinton should have taken Bin Laden when he had the chance and Bush should have nailed Al-Zarqawi right off. . . . I think the equally dicked up . . .

I'm glad you think so, and I noticed you mention that earlier. I don't doubt for a second that our special ops could have captured a single man and possible even his cronies without making a big deal about it.

So then why did you say the following in response to an earlier post?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):

Well said. Nuf Said . . .

Are you hesitant to read anything critical of the president?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):

You realize you ARE the problem.

Care to explain that one? Is the problem that I'm criticizing the president? Lord forbid...
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Schoenorama
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
Well, he sure gassed the hell out of 'em now didn't he?

He damn sure had control after THAT little escapade.

The No-Fly zones were imposed AFTER he gassed the Kurds. Saddam basically lost control over the entire Northern (Kurdish) regions with the imposition of the No-Fly zones. The existence of al-Qaeda training camps in this part of Iraq is a much used excuse by the Right. Completely in line with the Rights' habit of using false or incomplete accusations, they always fail to mention Saddam did not control that part of Iraq.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 39):
Are you hesitant to read anything critical of the president?

Absolutely not . . . can't make a response if you haven't read the linked data . . . or at least you shouldn't . . .

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 39):

So then why did you say the following in response to an earlier post?

The horse is dead . . . another Bush Bash thread . . . albeit, congratulations on something entirely new!  thumbsup  Not simply another angle on the same old rhetoric . . .

For the record, once again: Clinton and Bush each missed opportunities to excel . . . for whatever reason . . . OBL and his cronie should both be pushing up daisies right now . . . bad call by both Presidents.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:45 am

I found this on the subject of Abu Musab:

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/eng_n/zarqawi.htm

NBC to the contrary, it does NOT appear there was any reason at the time cited to go after him.

By the way, has it crossed ANYBODY'S mind that NBC's parent company-GE-may have been promised a share of lucrative contracts in Iraq if some sort of US regime change can be effected ?
gene
 
tbar220
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
The horse is dead . . . another Bush Bash thread . . . albeit, congratulations on something entirely new! thumbsup Not simply another angle on the same old rhetoric . . .

Ok, on one hand you call my thread another "boring ol' bush bashing thread"... and then on the other hand you says its something new and not old rhetoric.

You sure as hell are confusing me, which is it? Why is my reporting on something new, a new fault of the presidents, why is that just "Bush Bashing"? We seem to be having decent discussion here, but you seem intent on reducing it to just "Bush Bashing".

Which it is not, btw...  Silly
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
Care to explain that one? Is the problem that I'm criticizing the president? Lord forbid...

Simultaneously whining about the hypocrisy while perpetuating said hypocrisy helps no one. Your sole purpose is to perpetuate the whining:

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
Next time anybody whines or bitches about Clinton not getting Bin Laden, those of you bitching about this thread won't have a toe to stand on.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 5:13 am

I'll apologize in advance for any spelling errors: I've been kind of busy fact-checking.

1. The sources cited are Michael O'Hanlon, who works for the Brookings Institution: a sort of way station for out-of-office members of the Democratic party- not that there's anything wrong with working for a think-tank.

The other source,Roger Cressy,previously worked in counter-terrorism with the less-than-well-informed Richard C. Clarke, and is a paid commentator for NBC.

2. Neither O'Hanlon or Cressy is apt to have known what went on in the Pentagon or the National Security Council in June,2002-as they were employed elsewhere.

3. A careful search of the UNSCOM, UNMOVIC, and Iraqi Survey records produced no references to "Kirma" or al-Kirma"; and a careful search (by description) of captured Iraqi Intelligence Service documents was equally fruitless.

I'm drawing no hard conclusions here, but this has the look and feel of deliberate disinformation: ginned up on the internet, and gussied up for prime time television.

If any of you have evidence to the contrary,I'd appreciate a look.
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MDorBust
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22):
Wrong. It was one of the post-facto, "oops-there's-no-WMD-excuses", not a reason cited. That's just GOP revisionist history.

 redflag 

" My second purpose today is to provide you with additional information, to share with you what the United States knows about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction as well as Iraq's involvement in terrorism, which is also the subject of Resolution 1441 and other earlier resolutions. "

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, addressing the UN .

Want to know the really funny part?

From later in the same speech: " Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an associated in collaborator of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaida lieutenants. "

Who's the revisionist?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 46):
U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, addressing the UN .

Want to know the really funny part?

From later in the same speech: " Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an associated in collaborator of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaida lieutenants. "

You neglected to mention this speech was given in February,2003.

Just looking at the timeline here, the NBC story stinks.

Beginning of 2001- Meets OBL in Kandahar.Refuses offer to join al-Qaeda,but accepts offer of a camp in Herat,Afghanistan,where he assumes the Abu Musab Zarqawi alias.

October,2001. Retreats from Afghanistan - via Pakistan - enters Iran, until the beginning of 2002. He has about 21 followers at this time.

Early 2002,adds some followers,sets up two training camps in Islamist Kurd - controlled area of northern Iraq.

How likely is it he would have posed sufficient threat by June,2002 that the Pentagon would have considered bombing him ?

Convince me.
gene
 
MDorBust
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 47):
You neglected to mention this speech was given in February,2003.

The whole point of posting SecState's speech was to refute Falcons claim that the Terror aspect of the case for war was invented after the war when it clearly was a large portion of SecState's case for war speech to the UN.

Ferbruary 2003 was before the war started.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
bill142
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RE: Bush Missed Chance To Get Al-Zarqawi

Sat May 20, 2006 8:57 am

Bush has missed the chance to do a lot of things. Why should we be surprised by this?

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