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HAWK21M
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Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sun May 21, 2006 8:08 pm

http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/21jk.htm
Another Wound for India.Another day of Paitence.  banghead 
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
comorin
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Mon May 22, 2006 12:20 am

MEL,

From your previous posts, I know this particular topic always bothers you deeply. Unfortunately, even a mighty nation like the USA is vulnerable to wild-eyed terrorists, and things are only getting worse.

Even during the accession of Kashmir, Afghan warlords (they just love doing this stuff) were behind the invasion, and also implicated in the Baramulla massacre. These guys are hard to kill as they slip away in the mountains.

What are the choices? If you partition Kashmir again, perhaps things may get better, but not all Kashmiri Muslims want to join Pakistan.( Even Jinnah was dumbfounded when 1947 happened - he loved Bombay and hated the idea of moving to uncivilized Karachi ). You could also bomb the terrorist camps in 'Azad' Kashmir, but that will only lead to more bloodshed like in Israel or Srilanka, and possibly wake the sleeping dragon in the North.

My guess is that Indians are getting sick and tired of this, and want to swat this nuisance once and for all. Sometimes a good whack is the only way to get a message across to savage folk.

Cheers.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Mon May 22, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 1):
From your previous posts, I know this particular topic always bothers you deeply.

True.Very much bothers me.
A Democracy can't go on having Paitence.Especially when Uninvolved civilians are getting hit.
The GOI needs to take a stand & stop this Cross-Border attacks.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
trvyyz
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Tue May 23, 2006 8:38 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
The GOI needs to take a stand & stop this Cross-Border attacks.

How? What do you suggest?
The whole kashmir thing makes me sick.
I've never fully understood it,actually what's going on there?

[Edited 2006-05-23 13:41:05]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Wed May 24, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 3):
How? What do you suggest

Strike accross the LOC on those camps.As it is the Neighbour keeps denying they exist.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
comorin
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Thu May 25, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
Strike across the LOC on those camps.As it is the Neighbour keeps denying they exist.

Srilanka, Northern Ireland, Israel have had to fight guerrilla wars over extremely long periods of time. Eventually, the guerrillas seem to prevail (Ireland). The situation in Kashmir is different, as much of the terrorism is cross border, well-funded, and blessed by Al-Qaeda.

Striking across the LOC will be difficult now that the Neighbor has USAF AWACS patrols in the air; perhaps supersonic cruise missiles may be harder to detect. Nevertheless, if India doesn't do it, it will just be interpreted as a sign of weakness. If India does go ahead, then it will serve to unite other jihadists against India, and could lead to all-out war. After all, Delhi is only a 20-minute missile ride away from the border.

The war against terrorism in India cannot be fought by conventional forces. There has to be a systematic covert war that will undermine and root out this menace.

The other choice India has is to hold a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Unfortunately, if the majority vote to stay with India, the insurgents will be back in full force.

I think the GOI has realized that there isn't much it can do except at a covert level. It's mission now is to make sure India remains undistracted in its economic growth.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 3):
I've never fully understood it,actually what's going on there?

I'll get you some links, but meanwhile here is the 2 minute version:

During partition, the princely states were given the choice of going with Pakistan or India. many of the states contiguous with the Sind and Punjab with Muslim minorities (and East Bengal) went with Pakistan.

Many Muslims however remained in India quite happily and India is the second largest Muslim country in the world.

In Jammu and Kashmir, the ruling Maharaja was Hindu, and chose to side with India despite a sizable Muslim population. There was some question about the authenticity of the letter of accession, and Pakistan would not accept that Kashmir was part of India. Many wars later, the situation has ended up as a long-term guerrilla war with no end.

There have been many attempts to resolve this, but the only practical solution seems to be to accept the present Line of Control (LOC) as a de facto boundary. Musharraf, appears to be more interested in finding a solution, but there are too many hard-liners in Pakistan today that he will antagonize.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Thu May 25, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 5):
Striking across the LOC will be difficult now that the Neighbor has USAF AWACS patrols in the air

Dont think they have them yet.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
HKA
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Thu May 25, 2006 11:39 pm

The solution is simple if the Indian Govt. wants it.

Why doesn't it hold a refrendum in Kashmir in neutral way, under UN and see if the Kashimris want independence from India.

like it was done in Quebec in Canada....
 
BarfBag
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 7):
Why doesn't it hold a refrendum in Kashmir in neutral way, under UN and see if the Kashimris want independence from India.

As in the case of the United States, Indian states do not have the right to secede. Kashmir though, gets special constitutionally protected autonomy, but that's as far as they'll get. Terrorism from neighbouring nations is not a basis for a referendum anyway. Kashmiris on average have a per capita income among the highest in India, but a lot of it is because of generous central assistance. What ought to receive priority is their economic integration with the rest of the country. Geography is a hurdle, but there's an epic railway line being built from Punjab that should help.
 
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 1):
.( Even Jinnah was dumbfounded when 1947 happened - he loved Bombay and hated the idea of moving to uncivilized Karachi ).

Are you freakin kidding me? How did you even make this assumption in the first place? Jinnah made Pakistan b/c he knew the Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
trvyyz
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 7):
Why doesn't it hold a refrendum in Kashmir in neutral way, under UN and see if the Kashimris want independence from India.

Again, what is the problem with this approach?

Is Kashmir worth the trouble? what to gain and what to lose? opinions please, just curious.....
My views are pretty neutral on the issue as I am not personally affected by the issue. All I hope is peace in the subcontinent. What is a practical solution?

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):
Jinnah made Pakistan b/c he knew the Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.

Gujurat is an exception.

But most other states are pretty good, I believe.
My state of Kerala, Christians and Muslims enjoy equal rights with Hindus, if not more Big grin
 
jacobin777
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 5):

The other choice India has is to hold a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Unfortunately, if the majority vote to stay with India, the insurgents will be back in full force.

if anything, most will vote to become an independent state from both Pakistan and India..and neither Pakistan nor India doesn't want that...that being said, if it had to be done this way, Pakistan would still get the "upper hand"...

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):

Are you freakin kidding me? How did you even make this assumption in the first place? Jinnah made Pakistan b/c he knew the Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.

 checkmark ....absolutely...while its always "big news" when Muslim "terrorist" fight, yet its never big news when thousands of Muslims get killed.....

THOUSANDS of Muslims werewhole-heartedly SLAUGHTERED by hindu fanatics, and it turned out (by the Indian Supreme Court Investigation) that the train caught on fire due to an accident....!!!

of course, where is the justice for the thousands of Muslims slaughtered and burned alive? NONE....flippin' NONE!!

and the Indian Governement ALLOWED it to happen, they had the power to stop it, yet did NOTHING...


and what about this? this is ok?  sarcastic 
" India 'will halt Kashmir abuses'"

"Indian PM Manmohan Singh has said specific steps will be taken to stop human rights violations by his security forces in Indian-administered Kashmir.

so some people here should keep their gob shut...because the hypocricy here is disgusting yuck 

Comorin, here is a link which should help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Nation_Theory

Jinnah believed in the "Two Nation Theory" hole-heartedly.......

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 10):
My views are pretty neutral on the issue as I am not personally affected by the issue. All I hope is peace in the subcontinent. What is a practical solution?

well..the practical solution would be for letting the people decide...

from the link provided below, it seems as if the India is basically opposed to all seven scenerios...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...03/kashmir_future/html/default.stm
"Up the Irons!"
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):
Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
THOUSANDS of Muslims werewhole-heartedly SLAUGHTERED by hindu fanatics, and it turned out (by the Indian Supreme Court Investigation) that the train caught on fire due to an accident....!!!

As a neutral who has spent sometime in both these countries I'll add my Euro 2.
First, all this talk of muslims suffering more than the others in India is completely untrue. Sure, there are some riots and chaps get killed, but India is the only country I know which has had three muslim presidents, a whole host of muslim ministers in the government, several muslim sportspersons hogging national media news (hey, sania mirza is a real babe), and tons of important muslims in public life , all the while having a majority hindu population. As for its minority record, the prime minister of India is a sikh, and sikhs are a hopeless minority in India, and there are millions of christians doing very well out there. Given all this I can only say that India treats its minorities so well that even us Europeans can take a leaf out of its book. It is indeed strange that the strongest criticism of its record should come from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where no non-muslim can be a leader of any kind.

As for Kashmir, I've read a lot about it, and even some of my friends in India agree that it should have been given off to Pakistan in 1947, when the two countries separated on the basis of religion. But after all these years, I doubt the Kashmiris will do better under Pakistani rule than under India's. If you ask me, they should stay with India and enjoy its booming economy rather than asking for any union with a much backward Pakistan.

No offence meant here chaps, but in all fairness I must say that the Pakistanis are a really friendly lot, even more than the Indians.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
HKA
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 6:37 am

DIJKKIJK:

I am not sure what exactly you mean Pakistan being much more backward than India. Agreed that India is doing well in technology but thier are still millions leaving in abject poverty, many more per capita than Pak. and there is widespread descrimnation even among Hindus, caste system etc.You should visit a slum or talk to some lower caste Hindu to get the picture.

Maybe we'll see a non-muslim president in Pak. (98% muslim population) at such a time when a muslim becomes a head of state in Germany, France, U.K. etc !!

India boasts as the biggest democracy, so let them hold a refrendum and it is better Kashmir remains independent of Pak. or India. Hopefully then, both countries would stop wasting money in buy weapons.
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 13):
I am not sure what exactly you mean Pakistan being much more backward than India. Agreed that India is doing well in technology but thier are still millions leaving in abject poverty, many more per capita than Pak. and there is widespread descrimnation even among Hindus, caste system etc.You should visit a slum or talk to some lower caste Hindu to get the picture.

Agreed, India has problems with millions living in poverty, and there is also discrimination, but Pakistan isn't exactly a model state in comparison , is it? and you cannot deny that India's democratic setup and booming economy is definitely a better bet for most kashmiris.

Quoting HKA (Reply 13):
it is better Kashmir remains independent of Pak. or India.

Unfortunately, it cannot. Just look at its geographical location. It is sandwiched between India, Pakistan and China, so any war between any of these chaps, and Kashmir is going to be the battle field. And apart from some beautiful mountains and lovely valleys, it has no resources to speak of and must rely on some other big country for its maintenance.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
comorin
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 7:52 am

MEL, I guess we now have a hornet's nest going! You can see that Kashmir is a touchy subject for anyone on the subcontinent.

A good book about Jinnah (Jacobin777, Emirates773ER ) is "The Man who divided India", by Rafiq Zakaria, a distinguished writer and promoter of Hindu-Muslim Unity. (Jinnah spoke no Urdu, nor could he read the Holy Quran except in English).

For a more Western (though slightly anti-Indian) point of view, read Victoria Schofield's scholarly book "Kashmir in the Crossfire".

Subhash Kak, a Kashmiri scholar at LSU, has an interesting comment on the state of affairs:

How do we explain Pakistani obsession with Kashmir? It is a nation in
search of an identity. Predominantly a Punjabi state, it has failed to
develop a federal structure where the Sindhi, Baloch, and the Pathan
minorities would feel equal partners. No wonder, since its creation,
its politics has been driven by urges of self-definition in relation to
its neighbors. United primarily by its enmity for India, it has also
attempted definition as a member of the Islamic world and more recently
as an aspiring leader of the newly independent Turkic states of Central
Asia. Pakistani preoccupation with Kashmir might serve internal
political ends but it only postpones and makes more difficult the
resolution of its own basic problems


On the plebiscite issue, neither India, China or Pakistan want to see another state as a geopolitical pawn. As for the alternative, Kashmiri muslims will wonder if being subsumed in a Punjabi-dominated state is such a good idea.

There are right-thinking leaders in both India and Pakistan who can put an end to this conflict, but the same bigotry that led to the holocaust at partition is still well and alive in both places.

I do hope I haven't offended anyone on a.net - politics and religion are not good conversation topics. Smile

It's over and out for me...  wave 
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 8:12 am

my final words and i won't be posting again in this thread.
"If Pakistan and the terrorists have the balls, then go and get Kashmir". No matter what excuses you give, there is no way you can justify voilence. If you do then be ready to face it yourself and then don't ask for justification".
Jai Hind!!!
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
bravo45
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 14):
and you cannot deny that India's democratic setup and booming economy is definitely a better bet for most kashmiris.

I hope you had not just spoken based on the impression the media want you to have. Look up the figures by which the economy of the two countries expanded recently. I don't have time to say much right now or post links, but you will find these are the 2 countries second and third in the percentage of the expansion of their economies after China. Its just that I believe the name of the second one in the past year will surprise you.
I will post again regarding the rest of the highly ignorant views expressed here.

[Edited 2006-05-26 01:29:39]
 
jacobin777
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 15):
. (Jinnah spoke no Urdu, nor could he read the Holy Quran except in English).

he was supposedly a "convert" to Islam (many claim he wasn't a Muslim-but that's not for me to say).....regardless, that is why he never was able to read the Quran as his upbringing never had him speak Urdu nor learn the Quran...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 17):
I hope you had not just spoken based on the impression the media want you to have. Look up the figures by which the economy of the two countries expanded recently. I don't have time to say much right now or post links, but you will find these are the 2 countries second and third in the percentage of the expansion of their economies after China. Its just that I believe the name of the second one in the past year will surprise you.

 checkmark 

Quoting Comorin (Reply 15):

How do we explain Pakistani obsession with Kashmir? It is a nation in
search of an identity. Predominantly a Punjabi state, it has failed to
develop a federal structure where the Sindhi, Baloch, and the Pathan
minorities would feel equal partners. No wonder, since its creation,
its politics has been driven by urges of self-definition in relation to
its neighbors. United primarily by its enmity for India, it has also
attempted definition as a member of the Islamic world and more recently
as an aspiring leader of the newly independent Turkic states of Central
Asia. Pakistani preoccupation with Kashmir might serve internal
political ends but it only postpones and makes more difficult the
resolution of its own basic problems

Pakistan was a mixed country from the start and there is still internal rife within the country, but as it stands...if you looked at the BBC link I provided above..all the scenerios were either neutral to positive for Pakistan, where as they were neutral to negative for India, hence India rejecting a few of the proposals....

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 12):
First, all this talk of muslims suffering more than the others in India is completely untrue. Sure, there are some riots and chaps get killed, but India is the only country I know which has had three muslim presidents, a whole host of muslim ministers in the government, several muslim sportspersons hogging national media news (hey, sania mirza is a real babe), and tons of important muslims in public life , all the while having a majority hindu population. As for its minority record, the prime minister of India is a sikh, and sikhs are a hopeless minority in India, and there are millions of christians doing very well out there. Given all this I can only say that India treats its minorities so well that even us Europeans can take a leaf out of its book. It is indeed strange that the strongest criticism of its record should come from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where no non-muslim can be a leader of any kind.

while its true this has happnened, there have been thousands of Muslims murdered on a mass scale every decade or less...in 1992, a very old and beautiful 16th century historical mosque (Babri Mosque)was destroyed by approximately 200,000 thousand fanatics and ultra-right nationalist groups..the dickhead LK Advani was present..in fact, he his partially responsible for the incitement..as a result of those riots, thousands of innocent Muslims were killed....

also, though Muslims are the minority, they are a strong minority...with a fairly sizeable population.

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 12):
No offence meant here chaps, but in all fairness I must say that the Pakistanis are a really friendly lot, even more than the Indians.

I agree... bigthumbsup 
"Up the Irons!"
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):

here are a few question my Paki friends will have to answer
1. Before cursing India's secularism and democratic values, please explain what happened to all those Hindus who were left behind after partition? With Pakistan itself an theocratic state what right does it have to question otheres?

2. Rather than lamenting India's economic development, why don't you guys do something about your country. If a General at helm is what pleases you, then don't complain about otheres.

3. How would you justifty killing and displacement of Kashmiri Pandits? Or is it something that is justified by your philosophy?

4. Do you understand the meaning of the word "introspection"? If you do, then you'd be able to answer all my questions.

Good Luck
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
Strike accross the LOC on those camps.As it is the Neighbour keeps denying they exist.
regds
MEL

Pakistan can keep denying the existence of the camps (as it will), but Kashmir is a complex issue. The uneasy detente that exists right now is far better than India launching missiles or acting with a hot head. The death of 7 shouldn't result in the death of millions. And lets face the fact that the Indian military hasn't exactly been blameless in how they've handled Kashmir over the past 15 years. Nor has the Congress party that back in the '80s was largely to blame for allowing Kashmir to turn into the mess it is today. By and large militant action across the LOC has decreased over the years. Given that India and Pakistan share a huge border, and given that there are Kashmirs on the Indian side who probably share the beliefs of those on the Pakistani side, its not surprising that the borders aren't air tight. All that India can and should do is contain the situation as much as it can. In any case, the average Kashmiri Muslim is sick of the militants at this point.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 17):
I don't have time to say much right now or post links, but you will find these are the 2 countries second and third in the percentage of the expansion of their economies after China.

I don't know what you're getting at, but even if Pakistan's growth in 2005 and the first quarter of 2006 bested India's, this comes after a decline in per capita for over 10 years. In fact, 2004 was the first time that Pakistan's GDP was over 6%, and although it hit a high of 8.5% in mid 2005, India's economy grew at 8.2% in the last quarter 2005-2006 after several years of a relatively constant 5 - 7 % growth rate. So, niggling over small percentage points is pointless given that economics is not an exact science. The reality is that both countries need peace at the border for their economies to grow at the current rates or more. Currently Pakistan's PPP is about $ 2200 and India's is $ 3300.

Remember that foreign investors are still wary of investing in Pakistan, and that back in 2001 when India and Pakistan engaged in sabre rattling, foreign investors and Indian industry delivered a strong message to New Delhi to shut the f*ck up.

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 14):
Agreed, India has problems with millions living in poverty, and there is also discrimination, but Pakistan isn't exactly a model state in comparison , is it? and you cannot deny that India's democratic setup and booming economy is definitely a better bet for most kashmiris.

While, the slums of Karachi may be a bit less ghoulish than the ones in Mumbai, and while Pakistani cities in general don't look as disheveled as Indian ones, there is an insane bustle one sees in India that is not always witnessed in Pakistan. When you factor in India's press (one of the largest and freest in the world in comparison to Pakistan, the relative freedom that women have in India and their higher educational rates and achievements, and the fact that India's noisy democracy can withstand change at a faster pace than Pakistan's Islamic dictatorship, its a no brainer as to which country has the upper hand.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 12):
As a neutral who has spent sometime in both these countries I'll add my Euro 2.
First, all this talk of muslims suffering more than the others in India is completely untrue. Sure, there are some riots and chaps get killed, but India is the only country I know which has had three muslim presidents, a whole host of muslim ministers in the government, several muslim sportspersons hogging national media news (hey, sania mirza is a real babe), and tons of important muslims in public life , all the while having a majority hindu population. As for its minority record, the prime minister of India is a sikh, and sikhs are a hopeless minority in India, and there are millions of christians doing very well out there. Given all this I can only say that India treats its minorities so well that even us Europeans can take a leaf out of its book. It is indeed strange that the strongest criticism of its record should come from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where no non-muslim can be a leader of any kind.

As for Kashmir, I've read a lot about it, and even some of my friends in India agree that it should have been given off to Pakistan in 1947, when the two countries separated on the basis of religion. But after all these years, I doubt the Kashmiris will do better under Pakistani rule than under India's. If you ask me, they should stay with India and enjoy its booming economy rather than asking for any union with a much backward Pakistan.

No offence meant here chaps, but in all fairness I must say that the Pakistanis are a really friendly lot, even more than the Indians.

Bravo DIJKKIJK! That was an excellent post - perfectly summarizes the situation from a neutral perspective.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 1:39 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):
1. Before cursing India's secularism and democratic values, please explain what happened to all those Hindus who were left behind after partition? With Pakistan itself an theocratic state what right does it have to question otheres?

when the partition occured, millions of Muslims fled to Paksitan and Millions of Hindus and Sikhs moved fled to India....the area which eventually became Pakistan already had a large majority of Muslims of Punjabi, Afgahani, and Irani (Persian) descent...that is why Pakistanis from the south such as Karachi look and different and speak differently from the Pakistanis from the north..

northern Pakistanis primarily speak Punjabi, pushto, ect. and are pathanis-which are of Afghani and Persian descent, where as southern Pakistanis' speak urdu, are darker in skin colour, and are more of Indian descent.....hence the "MQM" versus "PPP" political dramas...

MQM=muhajar qaum movement-the muhajars from India
PPP= Pakistan's People's Party-from which Bhutto came from

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):

2. Rather than lamenting India's economic development, why don't you guys do something about your country. If a General at helm is what pleases you, then don't complain about otheres.

 confused 

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):
3. How would you justifty killing and displacement of Kashmiri Pandits? Or is it something that is justified by your philosophy?

who said its all justified? some is and some isn't..both sides seem to be bent on killing each other..my point of the argument was to show the other side of the OP..which was biased towards one side....

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):

4. Do you understand the meaning of the word "introspection"? If you do, then you'd be able to answer all my questions.

I was obviously introspectional when I posted my comments.... sarcastic 

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
The reality is that both countries need peace at the border for their economies to grow at the current rates or more. Currently Pakistan's PPP is about $ 2200 and India's is $ 3300.

 checkmark ...less fighting and more investment (as well as education) would go a long way...

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
While, the slums of Karachi may be a bit less ghoulish than the ones in Mumbai, and while Pakistani cities in general don't look as disheveled as Indian ones, there is an insane bustle one sees in India that is not always witnessed in Pakistan. When you factor in India's press (one of the largest and freest in the world in comparison to Pakistan, the relative freedom that women have in India and their higher educational rates and achievements, and the fact that India's noisy democracy can withstand change at a faster pace than Pakistan's Islamic dictatorship, its a no brainer as to which country has the upper hand.

..while Pakistan's press isn't as large as India's, it certainly still has more freedom than it did during the Bhutto years......

by enlarge, I agree that India has more "freedom" than Pakistan does, however, with a 98% conservative muslim population, it really doesn't bother the general population all too much....

both sides have to work on their human rights and both sides need international investment......


at the end of they...regardless if one is Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Pakistani, Indian, etc.....most people want the same thing..........

1)happy family
2)food on the table
3)nice roof over the head
4)good job with a good income
"Up the Irons!"
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
by enlarge, I agree that India has more "freedom" than Pakistan does, however, with a 98% conservative muslim population, it really doesn't bother the general population all too much....

And therein lies the problem, doesn't it?

That 98% so-called conservative Muslim population isn't monolithic - I mean they did elect a woman, albeit an idiotic and corrupt one. However, the Generals have struck a faustian pact with the most conservative of the lot (the ones who make the biggest noise). I doubt if Musharaff would want to, but he has no choice. He's the heir of General Zia's Islamo-fascism and its too late to change things radically.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 5:56 pm

Well The Frustration was over the regular Terrorist strikes over the Country for years now.Kashmir is one reason.But Why strike Innocent persons is the Question.Even Kids are not spared.
Obviously when it turns to Kashmir.Each side has their own reasons & rightly so.
But the question is Is Attacking Innocent Civillians Justified.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri May 26, 2006 6:14 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 21):
Bravo DIJKKIJK! That was an excellent post

I second that motion.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
But the question is Is Attacking Innocent Civillians Justified.

Never.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Obviously when it turns to Kashmir.Each side has their own reasons & rightly so

Can you explain that a little more? I heard reasoning from a Pakistani once, and it was pretty good and unbiased.

BTW, how is India progressing lately?
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat May 27, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
But the question is Is Attacking Innocent Civillians Justified.

Of course, not.

But civilian attacks are the raison of terrorists everywhere.

That having been said, over the top retaliation isn't justified either. Not so long ago, an ex-member of this site proclaimed that India should launch a nuclear attack against Pakistan and risk the devastation of its major cities and the deaths of hundreds of millions to end Pakistani sponsored terrorism. Of course, he was saying this thousands of miles from Mumbai while comfortably ensconced in his couch in the West.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
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HAWK21M
Topic Author
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat May 27, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 25):
how is India progressing lately

India is doing quite well,apart from the recent market hiccup.  Smile

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 26):

True.I have a Friend from the Region [J&K] & his stories are amazing.Its a tough world out there.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
andessmf
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat May 27, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 27):
India is doing quite well,apart from the recent market hiccup.

Good to hear, my next door co-worker is from New Delhi. I hope there werent too many problems over the hiccup.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat May 27, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 23):
That 98% so-called conservative Muslim population isn't monolithic - I mean they did elect a woman, albeit an idiotic and corrupt one. However, the Generals have struck a faustian pact with the most conservative of the lot (the ones who make the biggest noise). I doubt if Musharaff would want to, but he has no choice. He's the heir of General Zia's Islamo-fascism and its too late to change things radically.

Musharaff himself is in a very partiuclar situation..he has to deal with many conflicting forces from all sides..

1)taliban/al queda supporters in the military
2)multiple assinations on his life
3)if he didn't yield into the demands of the United States post-9/11, I think he would have been in a lot of trouble....by "agreeing" with the United States, he got billions of dollars of investments, debt forgiveness, as well as some leverage when it came to dealing with the India/Kashimiri issue...

At the end of the day, it was "damned if I do, damned if I don't" and he made the best possible decisions..

Many people in Pakistan don't like Musharaff....yet he's done the best job in Pakistan that Pakistan has seen in the past 2 decades.......and certainly more than the previous leaders.....which is quite amazing considering the poltical spectrum post-9/11

[Edited 2006-05-26 19:47:44]
"Up the Irons!"
 
trvyyz
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat May 27, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 16):
"If Pakistan and the terrorists have the balls, then go and get Kashmir". No matter what excuses you give, there is no way you can justify voilence. If you do then be ready to face it yourself and then don't ask for justification".

I thought they already had half of Kashmir. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat May 27, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 30):
I thought they already had half of Kashmir. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wrong 1/3rd.Don't forget Aksai chin.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
trvyyz
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sun May 28, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 31):
Don't forget Aksai chin.

That's even worse, I thought India had half, but now it seems only 1/3rd.
But In my school, the map showed whole of kasmir in India. I realized the1/3rd factor only recently and I thought my school actually fooled me. I thought India borders with Afghanistan also, blame it on the school.
 
comorin
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sun May 28, 2006 6:42 am

Looks like it's safe to jump back in this thread for a short visit.

Thanks Jacobin777 for your thoughtful posts.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 32):
That's even worse, I thought India had half, but now it seems only 1/3rd.

You know, If India gave away Kashmir, it would look like its head had been cut off on a map. Imagine how it would feel in terms of national pride! This may sound dumb but the symbolism is very strong.

As for Aksai Chin, there are many in India who will never forgive China, and the generation before them ( on both sides) will never forget the massacre of Partition. But older generations pass away, and a more pragmatic perspective will hopefully take root.
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sun May 28, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 33):
You know, If India gave away Kashmir, it would look like its head had been cut off on a map. Imagine how it would feel in terms of national pride! This may sound dumb but the symbolism is very strong.

Along with that country's underlying philosophy which is at stake. At the time of partition, India started off with the premise that Hindus and Muslims can live together the way they have been living so far. Pakistan wanted to prove the contrary. A muslim dominated Indian state is a pillar of what India stands for. Loss of Jammu and Kashmir shall be strong blow to Indian secularism. I hope my friends here will agree.
rgds
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
trvyyz
Posts: 1331
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sun May 28, 2006 12:38 pm

Here's one question.
What do people of Kashmir think of the whole issue?

For me, a guy from the south I can say it doesn't affect me but what about the people who are affected. I don't feel they can have a normal life as the rest of the Indians.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 34):
Loss of Jammu and Kashmir shall be strong blow to Indian secularism.

Jammu also?
 
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HAWK21M
Topic Author
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Mon May 29, 2006 6:06 pm



Open Border from LOC Only solution.Defence stays with India/Pakistan.Rest with Kaskmir.
Aksai Chin should be a part too.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 33):
You know, If India gave away Kashmir, it would look like its head had been cut off on a map. Imagine how it would feel in terms of national pride! This may sound dumb but the symbolism is very strong.

This is just as strong as the arguement gets. I was appalled to read this and decided not to reply, but this underlines the real reasons behind any rhetoric India may spread throught its huge media.
I am not surprised to hear the reflection of the neutrals, but I wish they can visit both places including both Indian and Pakistani parts of Kashmir before passing judgements. I doubt most will...
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 37):
This is just as strong as the arguement gets. I was appalled to read this and decided not to reply, but this underlines the real reasons behind any rhetoric India may spread throught its huge media.

And what about rhetoric Paki media spreads? What about the complete blackout of plight of Kashmiri Pandits who ware now refugees in their own country.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 37):
I am not surprised to hear the reflection of the neutrals, but I wish they can visit both places including both Indian and Pakistani parts of Kashmir before passing judgements. I doubt most will...

An absolute must for those of you who have an iota of doubt. How about you going down there first. Do post a trip report.
rgds
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:21 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 37):
but I wish they can visit both places including both Indian and Pakistani parts of Kashmir before passing judgements. I doubt most will

You'll be Surprised how different J&K is from POK.
 Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 39):
You'll be Surprised how different J&K is from POK.

My impressions come first hand from those whose families are divided by the LOC and who don't respect it and cross it often for various reasons, including helping bring the rest of their families to the refugee camps on this side of the LOC, which are in pretty bad shape BTW. Its different no doubt, there are no security problems here, no threat of the military or police abducting anyone for any reason. No natives ready to fight the "occupying Pakistani authorities" resulting in other casualties. This is a somber fact, not to mock you. Where do you get your impressions from?

Quoting Aseem (Reply 38):
And what about rhetoric Paki media spreads?

Firstly I see alarmingly high number of Indians using racism terms like "Paki" in its purely racist context. Most Pakistanis are not aware of the racist context when they themselves use it. Indians are of course more race educated and aware. Secondly when you bring something up wrong in our society unlike you, you will not find me defending the wrong. I remember on this very forum Indian members referring to the butcher of Gujrat, Modi as "He's shit but our shit", as he and all those Hindu fanatics from those who assassinated Gandhi to those who conducted the genocide in Gujrat walk free with silent endorsement of those who refuse to demand their prosecution. There is however I have to acknowledge a minority demanding justice but that percentage is in huge contrast to those numbers you will find on the other side of border truly wanting to see the people responsible of any crimes be brought to justice. Having said that I don't think you can point me to *one* such incident like those I mentioned, in which the extremists announced their intentions, took time to prepare, came over on time in their thousands, brought to the ground a historic landmark (The Babri Mosque) and or kill thousands because of their religion BACKED by the authorities and then live to proudly tell the tail for the rest of their lives. The only possible exception to that claim are the alleged actions of the Army in East Pakistan. But here again the government investigations are still classified and just by speaking to other Pakistani's you will be able to see for yourself how many support the kind of actions that were allegedly conducted. And never mentioned in those are the equally or more horrible massacres of the Beharis and West Pakistanis not usually mentioned, by the Indian Army and the Mukti Bhani. Should they ever be made public and I hope they do, you will not find Pakistani's saying things like, "It had to be done." etc, those things the Hindu's say to put behind such horrible things.
And what was the Gujrat massacre linked to? A train of Hindus being burnt by Muslims, or so was the cover story until:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2087709.stm
I don't mean to bring everything up that I know of, but of all of them I don't see anything worth calling true secularism. Muslims make a huge minority in India, one to the likes of which will probably never be in Pakistan, so in such circumstances they are bound to have those successes they you so proudly claim as the proof of the success of your system. The success in my opinion lies in the perfection and domination of the media that never made it common knowledge the scary failures. I didn't see 10% of outrage over the destruction of the Babri Mosque compared to the outrage over the destruction of the Buddha statues in Afghanistan while the arguments in justification were eerily similar like: no worship is conducted there now (I have not searched to see if its true in either case) and while the statues of Buddha are under reconstruction in Afghanistan, the land over which the ancient mosque stood destroyed years before the Buddha's came down, still lay barren and every year Hindu extremists walk in force on the anniversary of its destruction to reaffirm their pledge to construct the Hindu temple while the case rots in the Indian Supreme Court. And lastly compensation figues provided to the victims of the Gujrat massacre were more for Hindu families than for those who were Muslims.
Now I am no fond of quoting things out of proportions. If there are facts I quoted that are wrong, point them out. If I am wrong, you won't find me defending them. I have, since the Gujrat incident moved the US, and have come in contact with Indian Muslims and the organisations helping the victims. So don't use the usual stance of "You have been brainwashed by the (so called) Paki media".
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
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RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:18 am

And BTW expect the trip report when I get to go back hopefully this year (fingers crossed, I have said this in a row for almost 3 years now). In the mean time if you are interested I can post here the links of my brother's visits there. To my knowledge they are mostly picture of the beautiful landscape but I will ask if he wrote a trip report too.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
at the end of they...regardless if one is Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Pakistani, Indian, etc.....most people want the same thing..........

1)happy family
2)food on the table
3)nice roof over the head
4)good job with a good income

I wish you were right about that , if it were true how does the Islamic fundamentalist ideal prevail in Pakistan. The only excuse I can give them is that they just dont understand that peace and stability are the only path to the 1,2,3,4 you listed.
I am afraid that religious and nationalistic ideals are stronger than the will for calm and negotiations.  Sad
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
trvyyz
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:19 am

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
I don't mean to bring everything up that I know of, but of all of them I don't see anything worth calling true secularism.

India is not Gujurat, it is a bigger country. Whatever you say may be applicable to gujurat but not all of India.
I am also a from a minority religion (Christianity, 2.4% pop in India but still may have more Christians than what we have here in CAN).
I never in my life in India have felt like a minority.
In India where I live we have more Christian holidays than what we have in Canada.
Also, in the schools and colleges we have an addition hour of lunch break for Muslims on all fridays.
Even for employment we have a specific quota for all Muslims and some factions of Christianity (in Kerala).
There is even a party call muslim league and they enjoy power with the UDF.

So, please don't paint India as non secular just because of a Gujurat.
I too am also not too convinced about the secularism of the gujju state either.
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):

give me the opportunity to shread your post into pieces.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
including helping bring the rest of their families to the refugee camps on this side of the LOC,

that is because there is no militancy in PoK.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
Its different no doubt, there are no security problems here, no threat of the military or police abducting anyone for any reason.

And what about militant organizations like LeT shooting down "anyone for any reason".

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
Firstly I see alarmingly high number of Indians using racism terms like "Paki" in its purely racist context.

So you are alarmed about it.  

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
I remember on this very forum Indian members referring to the butcher of Gujrat, Modi as "He's shit but our shit", as he and all those Hindu fanatics from those who assassinated Gandhi to those who conducted the genocide in Gujrat walk free with silent endorsement of those who refuse to demand their prosecution.

Did you ever find any praising Gandhi's assassin. And is there a single Paki (sorry I cannot write that long word again and again) who has ever praised Gandhi, as it was he not Jinnah who drove British away. I am surprised all the criticism of Modi in Indian media didn't fall into your deaf year. Agreed he still occupies the political place, but that does not mean everybody agrees with him. India is functioning democracy where difference of opinion is accepted. Does Pak media, if I may say so ever criticize Taliban and all its activities?

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
(The Babri Mosque)

Okay fine!! Now my dear friend tell where was the pakistani authority when Bamiyan Buddhas were being brought down. Moreover the construction of Babri Masjid is an dispute in itself. Most Indian didn't want the dispute to take turn the way it did in 1988, but let me tell you that inspite of all its shortcomings Pak society pails in front of Indian. At times I am surprised you guys have courage to point fingers at us. A typical case of "pot calling kettle black".

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
I don't mean to bring everything up that I know of, but of all of them I don't see anything worth calling true secularism.

what nonsence..we are far ahead of you in this regard. If you don't like Indian secularism, then strive to create a better one in you own backyard. And let me assure you that we will be eager to learn a thing or two from you. And today only I read in one of online newpaper that Hindus and Sikhs don't even have a burial ground for themselves in Lahore. So much so for people shouting on top of their voice. Read this, and typically don't call it a propoganda
No cremation ground for Hindus in Lahore

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
And lastly compensation figues provided to the victims of the Gujrat massacre were more for Hindu families than for those who were Muslims.

Show media report saying so.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
didn't see 10% of outrage over the destruction of the Babri Mosque compared to the outrage over the destruction of the Buddha statues in Afghanistan while the arguments in justification were eerily similar like: no worship is conducted there now (I have not searched to see if its true in either case) and while the statues of Buddha are under reconstruction in Afghanistan, the land over which the ancient mosque stood destroyed years before the Buddha's came down, still lay barren and every year Hindu extremists walk in force on the anniversary of its destruction to reaffirm their pledge to construct the Hindu temple while the case rots in the Indian Supreme Court.

What all those temple in Pakistan which brounght down like anthill. What happens to pak media then. Now don't say that yours is a theocratic state and so on...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 40):
Now I am no fond of quoting things out of proportions. If there are facts I quoted that are wrong, point them out. If I am wrong, you won't find me defending them. I have, since the Gujrat incident moved the US, and have come in contact with Indian Muslims and the organisations helping the victims. So don't use the usual stance of "You have been brainwashed by the (so called) Paki media".

Nobody says what happened in Gujrat was not wrong. What is not liked is that Pakistanis are raising fingers when they have so much to hide in their own backyard. Wake up, what are you "talking". Anyways what is happening is for world to see and no matter how much you repeat again, again and again, truth remains truth.

what a waste of time...i shouldn't be compareing the two..
VT-ASJ

p.s. and you think Muslims in India would like Kashmir valley to be given off to Pakistan on a platter?

[Edited 2006-06-03 04:33:58]
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:46 am

the bottom line is that people of pakistan should not complaining about other people's secularism. As for us, we very well know what our shortcomings are.
got it!!!
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:27 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
give me the opportunity to shread your post into pieces.

And this is what you call shredded to pieces?  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
that is because there is no militancy in PoK.

Maybe if you hadn't tried to annex Kashmir by force against the will of the people and hadn't commit human rights abuses etc you wouldn't have had it either. Oh wait! You wouldn't have had Kashmir at all.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
Did you ever find any praising Gandhi's assassin.

Well if you hadn't notice, the point was "they walk free". But yes I can imagine why you would say something like that. In fact there are many praises for the Gujarat massacre.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
it was he not Jinnah who drove British away.

Really! Well that argument aside I can't imagine what would have happened without Jinnah. Gujarat would have paled...

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
. I am surprised all the criticism of Modi in Indian media didn't fall into your deaf year. Agreed he still occupies the political place, but that does not mean everybody agrees with him. India is functioning democracy where difference of opinion is accepted.

Yeah India is the only democracy (actually second after Israel) where such criminals rule. So everybody does not agree with him, is the reason the world got to know what happened.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...52580708715802828&q=Final+Solution
But enough people agree with him to keep him alive free and in power. Rule of extremism.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
Okay fine!! Now my dear friend tell where was the pakistani authority when Bamiyan Buddhas were being brought down.

Just an update for you: That happened in a different country called Afghanistan. Lolz.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
Moreover the construction of Babri Masjid is an dispute in itself. Most Indian didn't want the dispute to take turn the way it did in 1988, but let me tell you that inspite of all its shortcomings Pak society pails in front of Indian.

I am not even going to say anything more. Had there been *ONE* comparable incident you would have said it a long time ago. These bastards (in both occasions) announced their intentions, those involved in the Gujarat massacre had printed lists of Muslim's properties and addresses while the Police either played the spectators or helped the murderers or misdirected those Muslims trying to free so they end up in the middle of those waiting for them. And you can still find pictures of thousands destroying the Babri Mosque.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
what nonsence..we are far ahead of you in this regard. If you don't like Indian secularism, then strive to create a better one in you own backyard. And let me assure you that we will be eager to learn a thing or two from you. And today only I read in one of online newpaper that Hindus and Sikhs don't even have a burial ground for themselves in Lahore. So much so for people shouting on top of their voice. Read this, and typically don't call it a propoganda
No cremation ground for Hindus in Lahore

With 98% of Muslim population, we are doing much better not being a secular society than India is doing to its huge minorities being secular. Can't imagine what if...

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
Show media report saying so.

These are not for you, you should have known better:

Witnesses and investigators said that during the worst days of the strife, marauding mobs of intoxicated young men were systematically trucked into Gujarati towns with written instructions for violence, including computerized lists of Muslim businesses and homes. In their saffron bandanas, brandishing "trishuls"-the mythical weapon of the Hindu God Shiva-the mobs systematically devastated these places.
And
In a move that cast grave doubt over the future security of Muslims in the state "the few (police officers) who ignored political interference and tried to prevent the escalation of violence were punished with sudden transfers," said journalist Dionne Bunsha who covered the riots. Then, Modi's government sought to compensate Hindu victims from the earlier train attack in Godhra with twice the money offered to Muslim victims from the riots.
http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/2002_fall/jehangir.html

However, Mr. Speaker, I was disturbed to find out that apparently in
the world's largest secular democracy, a Hindu life is worth twice as
much as a Muslim life. According to News India -Times, the Indian
government is paying out 200,000 Rupees each to the families of Hindus
who were killed, but just 100,000 Rupees to the family of each Muslim
killed.

http://mailgate.supereva.com/soc/soc.culture.soviet/msg01821.html

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
What all those temple in Pakistan which brounght down like anthill. What happens to pak media then. Now don't say that yours is a theocratic state and so on...

Like I said above, unlike yourself you won't find me justifying any thing wrong. Having said that, again you would have drown my voice out had there been a comparable incident.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
Nobody says what happened in Gujrat was not wrong. What is not liked is that Pakistanis are raising fingers when they have so much to hide in their own backyard.

While a huge number of Indians still dream of Pakistan becoming part of India one day, its important for us to keep reminding ourselves how fortunate we are being born Muslims and on top of it on this side of the border. Our backyard is far cleaner than yours, we can keep disputing it, none of us are a minority in our community. And don't tell its Muslims in your community who say so, I have come across many non Muslims in my community too.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
Wake up, what are you "talking". Anyways what is happening is for world to see and no matter how much you repeat again, again and again, truth remains truth.

what a waste of time...i shouldn't be compareing the two..

I would have said the same to you. Let the world see it not through India's huge media which is how most of them are seeing now.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
p.s. and you think Muslims in India would like Kashmir valley to be given off to Pakistan on a platter?

What the hell!!!! Your mine and their (the Muslims of India) forefathers were given the choice of deciding where they wanna go. NOBODY OTHER THAN THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR CAN DECIDE WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN. India can try force, its been more than 50 years now, it will only get harder and harder until one day justice will be served. Aameen!

Quoting Aseem (Reply 45):
the bottom line is that people of pakistan should not complaining about other people's secularism. As for us, we very well know what our shortcomings are.
got it!!!



Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
So you are alarmed about it.



Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
Paki (sorry I cannot write that long word again and again)


The below is not for you:
Now his racism is limited to his borders. He could have (now I presume falsely) said he didn't mean it that way, but if its too long to write he could have used the short that is intellectually accepted, like Indian being referred to as Indo, Pakistan is referred to as "Pak" hence Pak media etc. A little shorter than what he chose to use but then again shorter wasn't the motive was it? BTW this info was for those few neutrals if any, reading to make clear what is happening here. So while he can be of the highest Hindu cast, he is no different to billions around the world including me.
I am not going to argue with you one bit, my time is much more precious to be banging my head here. You may only provoke me to reply for the sake of correction of facts should you say something really incorrect just as I had to give some facts in this post.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:36 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 43):
TRVYYZ

Okay so my statement goes beyond what this one or two incidents that I pointed out, but then is this an exuse that I was almost sure then, sure now that I was responding to the kind of person I was responding to?
Maybe yes maybe not I won't judge it, I didn't mean any offence to you or anyone for that matter.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 43):
I never in my life in India have felt like a minority.



Quoting Aseem (Reply 44):
India is functioning democracy where difference of opinion is accepted

True  bigthumbsup 

As for the Views on Either side......Every side believes the Demon is on the Other side until they visit.
 Smile

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
Maybe if you hadn't tried to annex Kashmir by force against the will of the people and hadn't commit human rights abuses etc you wouldn't have had it either. Oh wait! You wouldn't have had Kashmir at all.

we tried to annex kashmir!!! who sent those afghan warlords in 1947. Maybe if you hadn't cried like a kid before British, there wouldn't have been Pakistan at all. BTW!! How do you feel living in an artificial country with no foundations at all. In fact it is more artificial than Isreal. Would be kind enough to explain what is Pakistan's History.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
Well if you hadn't notice, the point was "they walk free". But yes I can imagine why you would say something like that. In fact there are many praises for the Gujarat massacre.

Gandhi's assassin was hanged promptly and nobody praises him. And yes those responsible for Gujrat and 1984 (i have guts to add it from my side) riots have not prosecuted so far, but nobody is trying to cover. Anybody trying to raise a voice is carefully listened to. Can such a thing happen in Pak.
Praises for Gujrat massacre..where did you hear that. Here nobody even whispered in my ear. And even if somebody did, that was because he didn't have guts to say that in open Indian society.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
Really! Well that argument aside I can't imagine what would have happened without Jinnah. Gujarat would have paled...

And my dear fried, what happened due to Jinnah?? So, in a way you support the minority lynching that took place in Pak so much so that minority comprise just 2% of your population. There are only so many who can cross the border. So effective...eh!! And you are trying to replicate the same in Kashmir valley by massacre of Kashmiri Pandits.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
And you can still find pictures of thousands destroying the Babri Mosque.

Who says I cannot find pictures of it. What I am saying is that considering your track record, what right have you got to take high moral ground. Just keep shut!

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
With 98% of Muslim population, we are doing much better not being a secular society than India is doing to its huge minorities being secular. Can't imagine what if...

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 
Sikhs, Christians and Parsis, whose individual population is around 2% do far far better than your 2% population. Man!! you are simply out of your mind! Our Muslim President and Sikh PM are much respected for their leadership, and speak their mind and do things they want without banking on fundamentalist sections within our society. Do you understand what I mean?

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
NOBODY OTHER THAN THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR CAN DECIDE WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN.

So you better keep off....you got your country, be happy!!

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
Just an update for you: That happened in a different country called Afghanistan. Lolz.

Ya I too have studied Geography, but my dear friend who supported Taliban. When it comes to strategic depth, Afthanistan is yours otherwise not. And it is a common knowledge that Pak Army engineers where responsible for artillary support. To tell you the truth, those statues were saved because they were in Afghanistan and locals there associate it with their history. Had they been in Pak, they'd have been long gone. My heart bleeds for Mohanjodaro and Taxila Sad

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
Like I said above, unlike yourself you won't find me justifying any thing wrong. Having said that, again you would have drown my voice out had there been a comparable incident.

That is because our's is a free press and society, and everything that happens is brought into light. Yours being theocracy with godforsaken press, so you are "lucky" that you don't have to bring it out.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
While a huge number of Indians still dream of Pakistan becoming part of India one day, its important for us to keep reminding ourselves how fortunate we are being born Muslims and on top of it on this side of the border.

naa!!! nobody here wants that. You got your piece, and so be happy with it. We don't want an inch of your country and its innumerable problems. Its your headache.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
India can try force, its been more than 50 years now, it will only get harder and harder until one day justice will be served.

God willing! Both of us shall be here in the next 50 years and shall see and discuss. Big grin

Quoting Aseem (Reply 45):
I am not going to argue with you one bit, my time is much more precious to be banging my head here.

Eagerly waiting for your next post. Will rip apart that one as well.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 46):
You may only provoke me to reply for the sake of correction of facts should you say something really incorrect just as I had to give some facts in this post.

First get your own facts right. In today's media age everything is transparent and for world so to see..

And keep repeating those lies over and over again, hopefully they'll come alive in your wildest dreams.

cheers  bigthumbsup 
VT-ASJ
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