MD-90
Topic Author
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Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 5:20 pm

I didn't see a link to the exact article, but you can read it here:

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/showthread.php?t=164288

RUSSELL SPRINGS, Ky. (AP) - The senior class at a southern Kentucky high school gave their response Friday night to a federal judge's order banning prayer at commencement.

About 200 seniors stood during the principal's opening remarks and began reciting the Lord's Prayer, prompting a standing ovation from a standing-room only crowd at the Russell County High School gymnasium.

The thunderous applause drowned out the last part of the prayer.



Apparently, the ACLU had filed suit to stop the prayer on behalf of an unidentified student, and 12 hours before graduation the judge issued a court order banning prayer...any public prayer.

Congratulations to the Class of 2006 of Russell County High School!
 
TedTAce
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 5:26 pm

Not this stuff again  Yeah sure
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cfalk
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 5:27 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
Congratulations to the Class of 2006 of Russell County High School!

I'm sure that the school will get in trouble with the Nazis, er, ACLU for their rebellion from politically correct thought.

If the students want to recite a prayer, a hym, or the lyrics to Motörhead's "Eat The Rich", let them. As long as it isn't hate-speech, nobody needs to be offended.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
aloges
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 5:29 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
12 hours before graduation the judge issued a court order banning prayer...any public prayer.

Only in America, I guess. No one else in "the West" seems to be making such a great deal out of praying and also telling other people how to live their lives; "political correctness" and/or "moral values" being abused as excuses for it.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Molykote
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 5:40 pm

In our high school this was always handled with the attitude that sanctioning of prayer by the school would have been unacceptable but any student could basically engage in prayer as he/she wished. I may not be remembering this correctly as I've been out of high school for several years.

Why should someone praying offend another more than any other statement that the two parties disagree upon?

If a prayer like this is the independent voice of one or more students and not a sanctioned or promoted act by the school doesn't this make the ACLU hypocritical by not upholding the "I may disagree with what you have to say... " mantra?
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 5:57 pm

Even if they asked for consent from all of the graduates, this act should not have happened.

1. If only one student did not agree with the prayer, but felt obligated to commence with it due to peer pressure, than the intent of secularism in the United States and the Constitution has been betrayed. Do conservatives only quote the Constitution when it suites their purpose? (I am not a liberal)

2. This is a very fine line. I do think that Chrisian/Jewish/Moslem/Satanic prayer groups should be allowed in schools. I even think that to hold a "moment of silence", as is common in US schools allows people to pray, think, or sleep to whatever they believe. That's great! But to insist that all students and attendees listen to a single minded prayer is ignorant and against the secular foundations of this country. Pathetic!!!

Matthew 6:5-8 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
Matthew 6:5-8 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Nice!!!...


As Jack Soo used to say: "Very well put"
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satx
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 6:29 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):

I'm sure that the school will get in trouble with the Nazis, er, ACLU for their rebellion from politically correct thought.

It's a sad day when merely fighting for separation of Church and State is equated to Nazism. I thought Christianity was all about tolerance and compassion. Now we have anti-PC Christianity? What is this world coming to?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 6:44 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 6):
Nice!!!...

Thank you. I try to keep my religious beliefs private because it only matters between myself and god. Sometimes I discuss religion, but I sometimes regret it. Athiests judge me the same as the theos. I believe what I believe, and F.. everone who doesn't respect that. That is why I revere the Establisment Clause of the First Amendment so much. I would die fighting for it.

I do respect all other's opinions as long as it doesn't impede upon this right.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
cfalk
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
1. If only one student did not agree with the prayer, but felt obligated to commence with it due to peer pressure, than the intent of secularism in the United States and the Constitution has been betrayed.

He is quite free not to say anything. But he is in a predominantly Christian school, and he should respect that. Nobody is forcing him to become a Christian.

Quoting SATX (Reply 8):
It's a sad day when merely fighting for separation of Church and State is equated to Nazism. I thought Christianity was all about tolerance and compassion.

Nazis started their percecution of Jews by banning all public displays of Judeism. Then it went on from there.

The whole point is, as you say, tolerance and compassion. If most people want to invoke a prayer together to mark an important event for them, other people should not be intolerant of their beliefs. In this case, it is the protesting student (and by extention, the Nazis, er, ACLU) who are being intolerant. The rest of the school shows its tolerance and compassion by not requiring anyone to participate if he doesn't want to.

Intolerance is on the side that proposes to ban something. If you think that it's the other way round, I suggest you take some Logic classes, which I am sure is still taught at good universities.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 7:04 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
He is quite free not to say anything. But he is in a predominantly Christian school, and he should respect that. Nobody is forcing him to become a Christian.

I cannot gain access to the article, yet I understand it to be a public school. Because of this, It is not a "Christian School". If a person who was Hindu was forced to go to a Buddhist school because they had no other option, they might pretend to be Buddhist-even if they where Hindu in heart and mind.

Any adult can tell you the importance of peer pressure among children and adolescents.

Further more, for you to suggest that a majority religion should take precedence over a minority one is disgusting.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
satx
Posts: 2771
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
If most people want to invoke a prayer together to mark an important event for them, other people should not be intolerant of their beliefs.

So, Christianity is apparently all about demanding tolerance and compassion from all non-Christians wherever Christians have the advantage of greater numbers instead of, say, leading by example?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
Intolerance is on the side that proposes to ban something.

Wow, never have I seen someone openly admit to such a narrow view of the world. That's the kind of simplistic view I might expect of child. I suppose by your twisted logic banning witch hunts is being intolerant? How about banning hate crimes? Banning discrimination? Good luck explaining that.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
cfalk
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 7:22 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):
Wow, never have I seen someone openly admit to such a narrow view of the world. That's the kind of simplistic view I might expect of child. I suppose by your twisted logic banning witch hunts is being intolerant? How about banning hate crimes? Banning discrimination? Good luck explaining that.

That is totally nonsensical.

Tolerance : The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

Therefore, intolerance is when you do not respect those beliefs and practices, and want to eliminate them, or at least eliminate them from your sight.

Secondly, your examples are completely flawed. Witch hunts, hate crimes, and discrimination are all forms of intolerance. It would not be philosophically logical to be tolerant of intolerance in the name of tolerance.

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):
So, Christianity is apparently all about demanding tolerance and compassion from all non-Christians wherever Christians have the advantage of greater numbers instead of, say, leading by example?

No. But it is the responsibility of all people who live in a free society to be tolerant of other people's beliefs, regardless of whether they are a minority or a majority. Or should we disallow something as soon as 50.01% of the population want it?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 7:27 pm

Now that I'm not at work....

Those of you who applaud the students actions have a right to take pride in their actions (save Fumanchewd's post) A bunch of kids APPARENTLY defying a court order is a big deal.... the only problem is; that your celebrating for the wrong reason. As usual, you don't have all the facts. (I don't profess to, but I have more then the celebrationists apparently)

From another article: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/14626241.htm
Attorneys for Gossage argued that the school's graduation ceremony would not be an improper endorsement of religion because students, not school officials, chose whether to have one of their own make commencement remarks.

The gist of what you are missing is that NO ONE in their right mind (even as liberal as I am) will STOP STUDENTS of their OWN FREE WILL from praying in public. What I WILL do is make sure that the person who starts/inspires/motivates/organizes the prayer is NOT working on my DAMNED taxpayer dime!!!!

So all you hardcore thumpers who want to shove YOUR work of fiction on ME can jump up and down as much as you want; the reality is that it was the students who decided to do this, NOT THE SCHOOL. Bottom line:Who cares???
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KROC
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 7:42 pm

I'm not religious, but banning a prayer because of ONE student just shows us how ridiculous the PC campaign has become. A country that grew based on tolerance is becoming one of the most intolerant places on earth. If the majority of your classmates want to recite a prayer and you don't...then STFU and let them do it. It does not harm that one person in any way. I hate crap like this.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 7:47 pm

Quoting KROC (Reply 15):
I'm not religious, but banning a prayer because of ONE student just shows us how ridiculous the PC campaign has become. A country that grew based on tolerance is becoming one of the most intolerant places on earth. If the majority of your classmates want to recite a prayer and you don't...then STFU and let them do it. It does not harm that one person in any way. I hate crap like this.

I think you missed the point of the diference between the students doing it of thier own accord and being instructed/inspired/managed/provoked/bullied to by school administration/employees.
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satx
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
Secondly, your examples are completely flawed.

Their only purpose was to show how ridiculous your narrow definition of intolerance was, and they served that purpose just fine.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
But it is the responsibility of all people who live in a free society to be tolerant of other people's beliefs, regardless of whether they are a minority or a majority.

Look, the whole significance of the majority position was started in your own post right here...

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
If most people want to invoke a prayer together to mark an important event for them, other people should not be intolerant of their beliefs.

If anyone should have to explain why they think the majority should have control, it's you. If you simply weren't paying attention to your own words, and you didn't really mean to draw attention to the majority position (yeah, right) then just say so.

Quoting KROC (Reply 15):
STFU and let them do it

You just have to wonder when someone decides to bash what they apparently see as intolerance by telling the other side to just "STFU".
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
TedTAce
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
Quoting KROC (Reply 15):
STFU and let them do it

You just have to wonder when someone decides to bash what they apparently see as intolerance by telling the other side to just "STFU".

I think KROC ought to KO himself on that one.
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cfalk
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
Secondly, your examples are completely flawed.

Their only purpose was to show how ridiculous your narrow definition of intolerance was, and they served that purpose just fine.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
But it is the responsibility of all people who live in a free society to be tolerant of other people's beliefs, regardless of whether they are a minority or a majority.

Look, the whole significance of the majority position was started in your own post right here...

You are making absolutely ZERO sense.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
oly720man
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting KROC (Reply 14):
I'm not religious, but banning a prayer because of ONE student just shows us how ridiculous the PC campaign has become. A country that grew based on tolerance is becoming one of the most intolerant places on earth. If the majority of your classmates want to recite a prayer and you don't...then STFU and let them do it.

That's why God gave us fingers and ears to put them in!
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
KROC
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 15):
I think you missed the point of the diference between the students doing it of thier own accord and being instructed/inspired/managed/provoked/bullied to by school administration/employees.

They appear one and the same.

Quoting SATX (Reply 16):
You just have to wonder when someone decides to bash what they apparently see as intolerance by telling the other side to just "STFU".

It's an expression. Perhaps to appeal to your fragile sensibility I should have said "the student in question should have kindly allowed his fellow students to have their prayer while he politely chose not to participate. Would that work better for you? Besides, shouldn't you be more worried about trying to find new and unique ways to Bash Bush in your posts? You seem to be below your quota.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
I think KROC ought to KO himself on that one.

While I am knowm to KO myself...this hardly qualifies.
 
halls120
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
No. But it is the responsibility of all people who live in a free society to be tolerant of other people's beliefs, regardless of whether they are a minority or a majority. Or should we disallow something as soon as 50.01% of the population want it?

VERY well put. We are fast becoming a very intolerant nation....

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 13):
The gist of what you are missing is that NO ONE in their right mind (even as liberal as I am) will STOP STUDENTS of their OWN FREE WILL from praying in public. What I WILL do is make sure that the person who starts/inspires/motivates/organizes the prayer is NOT working on my DAMNED taxpayer dime!!!!

You missed a better line of text farther on down in the article you cited.

"Lutgens said the lawsuit is not an attack on Christianity, but rather an effort to preserve "government-free religion." When government sanctions certain religious credos or tells people when, where and how to pray, that erodes religious freedom, Lutgens said."

I think this was actually a case where the system "worked." The ACLU properly acted to ensure that the school system didn't mandate a Christian prayer - and no one acted to stop those that wanted to pray. A win for both sides.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
greasespot
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
Or should we disallow something as soon as 50.01% of the population want it?

Majority cannot rule.....Not in everything. If that was the case there would still be a segregation......NO inter-racial marriage...Hell there would still be slavery in the south....

Sometimes the majority has to go against themselves to protect the minority and to do what is right.

I wonder how this toletant school would have reacted if this student was muslim and wanted to recite a prayer to Allah....i am willing to bet it would not have happened.

I do not have a problem with prayer clubs of any religion...as an after school club.

But do not foce EVERYONE to be subjected to it....Espeially since it is a public school and not a christian school...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
MattCLE
Posts: 182
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 11:29 pm

Ah, graduation!

The cake still goes to that pregnant girl who wasn't allowed to attend graduation but walked across the stage and announced her own name anyway. Now that took some guts.  highfive 

-Matt
Bear Claw, Free Fall, A Gunner's View
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
It's a sad day when merely fighting for separation

What kind of day is it when "fighting for separation of church and state" stifles free speech?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
oly720man
Posts: 5743
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting MattCLE (Reply 23):
The cake still goes to that pregnant girl who wasn't allowed to attend graduation but walked across the stage and announced her own name anyway.

This time last year

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050519/walk.shtml
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
deltadc9
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Mon May 22, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
1. If only one student did not agree with the prayer, but felt obligated to commence with it due to peer pressure, than the intent of secularism in the United States and the Constitution has been betrayed. Do conservatives only quote the Constitution when it suites their purpose? (I am not a liberal)

Separation of church and state is one of the most misunderstood concepts, just above right to bear arms. This has nothing to do with the Federal Government establishing a state religion.

What it does involve is the Federal Government infringing in their freedom of religion, one of the core beliefs of the founding fathers.

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
It's a sad day when merely fighting for separation of Church and State is equated to Nazism.

Separation of church and state is not the issue, the majorities religious freedom, as guaranteed in the constitution is the issue.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 10):
Further more, for you to suggest that a majority religion should take precedence over a minority one is disgusting.

This has nothing to do with any particular religion, again, religious freedom is the issue. Not the same thing.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
Majority cannot rule.....Not in everything. If that was the case there would still be a segregation......NO inter-racial marriage...Hell there would still be slavery in the south....

Horse Shit plain and simple. Ignorance like this makes these threads a waste.

This is a Republic, the majority of public opinion never rules, unless the representatives want it to.

Also, if that is your view of the American people, you are beyond hope.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
But do not foce EVERYONE to be subjected to it....

Looks like no one was forced.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
I wonder how this toletant school would have reacted if this student was muslim and wanted to recite a prayer to Allah

He could have stood up and given a shout out to Allah at the same time as everyone else and no one would have noticed.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 20):
They appear one and the same.

Halls articulated it better then I did.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
You missed a better line of text farther on down in the article you cited.

"Lutgens said the lawsuit is not an attack on Christianity, but rather an effort to preserve "government-free religion." When government sanctions certain religious credos or tells people when, where and how to pray, that erodes religious freedom, Lutgens said."

I think this was actually a case where the system "worked." The ACLU properly acted to ensure that the school system didn't mandate a Christian prayer - and no one acted to stop those that wanted to pray. A win for both sides.

Appearences are deceptive. Maybe the end result is the same in that students who want to pray, do. It's the journey and what is influencing them to take it that concerns me.

Think about it KROC... If the mods collectively started a thread entitled 'let us pray for Lew/EWS' you know that almost evey non whiner member here would be jumping on the bandwagon to support the mods and Lew faster then an atom of cesium 133.

Meanwhile Lew is on his 3rd trip to the hospital thread that I can think of (started by a non mod member), and support is apparently waning. I garantee if you asked those who were quick to respond to his first thread such as myself if we still cared or not, the answer is yes, but not enough to show it any more.
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greasespot
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 26):
Horse Shit plain and simple. Ignorance like this makes these threads a waste.

Wow.....good to see you think that highly about your own opinion.....Instead of adding something constructive you decide to yell and swear..A really good tactic for showing off your own intellegence.. sarcastic  ....Usually when someone reacts so strongly it mean the other person has struck a nerve....

GS

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 26):
Separation of church and state is not the issue, the majorities religious freedom, as guaranteed in the constitution is the issue

No one is infringing upon their religious freedom.....Just do it in a private setting or a church....NOt in a public school or more correctly making it part of a public school ceremony.

I do not see why so many people get so upset because in a public shool they cannot say a few words toTHEIR god


Oh and we are talking about a few people in a particular situation. I have not anywhere given my opinion of the American people.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
Not this stuff again

Really??? This is such BS.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
I even think that to hold a "moment of silence", as is common in US schools allows people to pray, think, or sleep to whatever they believe. That's great! But to insist that all students and attendees listen to a single minded prayer is ignorant and against the secular foundations of this country. Pathetic!!!

I love the moment of silence idea. The massive sprawl of christianity in my area is offensive to me, but it's cool as long as they leave me alone.

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
Now we have anti-PC Christianity? What is this world coming to?

It's senses. As silly as this whole debate seems, the devout and pious of the world will realize their position when they die and not find anything thereafter. Faith is just that acceptance without proof, and as long as the religious do not harm anyone or impress their views. WHO CARES !

Quoting KROC (Reply 14):
I'm not religious, but banning a prayer because of ONE student just shows us how ridiculous the PC campaign has become. A country that grew based on tolerance is becoming one of the most intolerant places on earth.

Intolerance would depend what side of the fence your found yourself. Most people group Atheists with cultists and miscreants. How tolerant is that?

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 29):
No one is infringing upon their religious freedom.....Just do it in a private setting or a church....NOt in a public school or more correctly making it part of a public school ceremony.

I do not see why so many people get so upset because in a public shool they cannot say a few words toTHEIR god

Agreed.

Instead of making asses out of themselves, why didn't they hold a separate gathering, AFTER the PUBLIC (NOT Private) ceremony, and do as they wished? As a matter of fact, it would have been nice to make it a wide-religion prayer, and invite Muslims, Christians, Catholics, Hindu's and everyone else who wanted to pray..

This way, they showed the childishness of their graduating class, and also showed that they obviously are quite singleminded in their beliefs and felt like forcing it on everyone, which in my opinion, is worse off than the rest of us stifling their religious banter at a PUBLIC gathering.

Now *I'll* pray for those people, because Lord, they're going to be running our country at some point.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 30):
Intolerance would depend what side of the fence your found yourself. Most people group Atheists with cultists and miscreants. How tolerant is that?

I never said that the "religified" people are overly tolerant either.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
The thunderous applause drowned out the last part of the prayer.

Good to see that they're not using prayer as an agenda, but for its true spiritual value.  

[Edited 2006-05-22 17:56:16]
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 32):
I never said that the "religified" people are overly tolerant either.

I notice that they tend to be tolerant of their own kind. That is a stretch at best. It is so amusing how many religious people twist their faith's message to suit their own beliefs.
UH-60's suck!!!
 
deltadc9
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 29):
Wow.....good to see you think that highly about your own opinion.....Instead of adding something constructive you decide to yell and swear..A really good tactic for showing off your own intellegence.. ....Usually when someone reacts so strongly it mean the other person has struck a nerve....GS

You know exactly what I am talking about, or you should.

Also, if you want to insult someones intelligence, learn how to spell the word!

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 29):
No one is infringing upon their religious freedom.....Just do it in a private setting or a church....NOt in a public school or more correctly making it part of a public school ceremony.

I do not see why so many people get so upset because in a public shool they cannot say a few words toTHEIR god

Because a prayer in this setting in this part of the country is the norm.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 29):
Oh and we are talking about a few people in a particular situation. I have not anywhere given my opinion of the American people.

Really? Then what is this?

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
Majority cannot rule.....Not in everything. If that was the case there would still be a segregation......NO inter-racial marriage...Hell there would still be slavery in the south....

And I will say it a again...H O R S E S H I T!

That is yelling, since I am already accused of doing so when I did not, might as well. Also, the term is a common phrase and not swearing in the sense you mean either, and pointing it out is just a another way for you to deflect from the utter nonsense you posted.

In Kentucky, everyone knows what horseshit is, both literally and figuratively speaking and figuratively speaking in this case it is simply a euphemism for what it would actually take to describe your post.

Accusing Americans of wanting slavery or segregation and not striking a nerve is what you expect? Especially when this subject of the post is IN THE SOUTH????

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
I wonder how this toletant school would have reacted if this student was muslim and wanted to recite a prayer to Allah....i am willing to bet it would not have happened.

Seeing that Allah is the same God Christians and Jews pray to, the God of Abraham, I don't see the problem, except for the ignorant. The only problem is sensitivity to Hindu beliefs.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
greasespot
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 12:58 am

Fact....When slavery was abolished it was done against the wishes of the majority of the South.....De-segregation was again imposed against the wishes of the majority. So how are you to say that had they followed the wishes of the majority that these things would not be part of today's society?(ok slavrery is a streach). All i was doing was illustrating how the wishes of the majority does not rule everything. That the majority 's purpose is to protect the rights of the minority even if it goes against the wishes of the majority.

Prayer may be the normal in those areas it is still a public school.....NOT a christian one or a private one...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
slider
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 5):
1. If only one student did not agree with the prayer, but felt obligated to commence with it due to peer pressure, than the intent of secularism in the United States and the Constitution has been betrayed.

Was there duress? Was anyone forced to pray? No. Your point is defeated. "Peer pressure" does not constitute force, under any interpretation.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 13):
The gist of what you are missing is that NO ONE in their right mind (even as liberal as I am) will STOP STUDENTS of their OWN FREE WILL from praying in public.

Bingo!

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 26):
Separation of church and state is one of the most misunderstood concepts, just above right to bear arms. This has nothing to do with the Federal Government establishing a state religion.

What it does involve is the Federal Government infringing in their freedom of religion, one of the core beliefs of the founding fathers.

Another bingo....it is freedom OF religion, not FROM religion.

There is no Constitutionally protected right to not be offended. Our whole pussified society needs to deal with things a bit better.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
Another bingo....it is freedom OF religion, not FROM religion

Freedom of religion automatically means freedom FROM religion as well. Just as you have the right to your religious beliefs, I have the right not to have them inflicted on me in any shape or form, if I so choose. It has to work both ways, otherwise where's the freedom ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Newark777
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 38):
Freedom of religion automatically means freedom FROM religion as well.

The government may not infringe on the practice of religion, or law respecting an established religion. Therefore, if you don't like someone's expression of religion, deal with it, or leave.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
sv7887
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
Another bingo....it is freedom OF religion, not FROM religion.

There is no Constitutionally protected right to not be offended. Our whole pussified society needs to deal with things a bit better

You make a great point. As long as a school official was not leading a prayer session I don't see what the big deal is.

The students are free to do as they please, just as when they boo a commencement speaker. Should we outlaw that since people may find it offense?

This PC offensive against Religion needs to stop. I can't believe the idiotic lawsuits I see trying to remove "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

No one wants a religious state, but I'm surprised that people are making a big deal out of this. I don't see the need to remove the name Christ from Christmas either. All this BS about "Holiday Trees" makes me want to vomit.


I think the US is going way too far to appease this PC crowd. It's pathetic. As a minority I have NO Problem with prayer.

When I was a student in a British public school we were REQUIRED to sing Christian hyms. In fact I still remember one of them, "Peace perfect peace is the Gift of Christ our Lord.."

Naturally we had a diverse student body, Jews, Muslims, Christians and Hindus...So what did we do? We sang the songs and substituted the name of our favored God.

But the Brits, to their credit, made all of us go to Religious Education. We read from books of all religions, and learned a great deal about one another. I read from the Bible, the Koran, and the Gita.

It was an excellent experience. I really enjoyed understanding the spirit of fesitivals like Eid, Christmas and Yom Kippur. In return I was only too happy to educate my fellow class mates on Holi, and Diwali.

We would be better served educating everyone in the USA about ALL major religions. Given we are a nation of immigrants it makes perfect sense to me.

-Sam
 
Newark777
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 40):

The students are free to do as they please, just as when they boo a commencement speaker. Should we outlaw that since people may find it offense?

 checkmark 

That's it, summed up nicely.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
TedTAce
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 35):

Because a prayer in this setting in this part of the country is the norm.

Yeah, and how did you learn that? I doubt you learned by staying away from school assemblies. I doubt you learned that growing up in a Jewish neighborhood in New York. The answer, you learned it because that's what YOUR PEERS and their families established as norm.

Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
No. Your point is defeated.

ROFLMAO...That's funny.

Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
"Peer pressure" does not constitute force, under any interpretation.

It's ONLY peer pressure when it's JUST the other students engaging in the activity. The second you have a government official leading the way, it is a CRIME.

Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
Bingo!

Nope.....

Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
Another bingo....it is freedom OF religion, not FROM religion.

Not this time either.

Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
Our whole pussified society needs to deal with things a bit better.

Yeah starting with the religious nuts who think that removing god from our government means removing godless people from the government. BY the way, how many atheists are under indicent these days?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 38):
Freedom of religion automatically means freedom FROM religion as well. Just as you have the right to your religious beliefs, I have the right not to have them inflicted on me in any shape or form, if I so choose. It has to work both ways, otherwise where's the freedom ?

That's a VERY fair statment.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 40):
This PC offensive against Religion needs to stop. I can't believe the idiotic lawsuits I see trying to remove "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

I can't wait until they succeed. It's about time someone respect the OTHER religions of this country that have NOTHING to do with your precious Christian "god"

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 40):
No one wants a religious state

ROFLMAO, that's GREAT comedy, do you mind if I use that for open mic night @ the commedy club?

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 40):
All this BS about "Holiday Trees" makes me want to vomit.

This I'll give you, with an ammendment: no one should have a problem with it being called a "Chanukah bush"
This space intentionally left blank
 
satx
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 20):
It's an expression.

Yeah, an expression of intolerance. Next!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
What kind of day is it when "fighting for separation of church and state" stifles free speech?

All they have to do is get off tax-funded property and they can pray their hearts out. Countries that don't have free speech haul dissenters away no matter they were they are. I don't see anything like that here. Your point is moot.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 26):
Separation of church and state is not the issue, the majorities religious freedom, as guaranteed in the constitution is the issue.

BS. You are free to do whatever you want so long as you don't do it on government property. Go pray somewhere else (like your church) and folks like the ACLU will leave you alone. Is there some reason your church, your home and your sidewalk aren't good enough for you?

[Edited 2006-05-22 20:04:40]
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
slider
Posts: 6806
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 38):
Freedom of religion automatically means freedom FROM religion as well. Just as you have the right to your religious beliefs, I have the right not to have them inflicted on me in any shape or form, if I so choose. It has to work both ways, otherwise where's the freedom ?

Are you getting into a semantical argument here? Honestly, are you?

What part of hearing a student or group of students recite a prayer constitutes "inflicting" anything?

Are you going to make that subjective distinction?

Simply hearing something now constitutes a crime? And a violation of freedom?
 
Newark777
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 43):
All they have to do is get off tax-funded property and they can pray their hearts out.

Talk about breaking the First Amendment. The government may not interfere with the free expression of religion, on government property or off.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 3:49 am

If the students really had a problem with the prayer, then they should have used it to their advantage to get themselves out of the assembly...

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 42):
Quoting Slider (Reply 37):
"Peer pressure" does not constitute force, under any interpretation.

It's ONLY peer pressure when it's JUST the other students engaging in the activity. The second you have a government official leading the way, it is a CRIME.

Are you serious?? Peer pressure? Grow up already. No one is putting a gun to their head. That statement highlights the problem we have with the lack of accountability in this society.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 42):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 40):
This PC offensive against Religion needs to stop. I can't believe the idiotic lawsuits I see trying to remove "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

I can't wait until they succeed. It's about time someone respect the OTHER religions of this country that have NOTHING to do with your precious Christian "god"

What the hell are you talking about? What part of my post did you not understand? I'm a HINDU and clearly stated that I was minority in my last post.

Before you go off on your anti religion rants, learn basic reading comprehension.

As an immigrant I understand that I live in a society that is different from my home country of India. There is a different culture, religion, and way of life alltogether.
I accepted that when I chose to live here.

If living in a Christian majority country offended me so much, I'd go back to India.

It is fair that I shall be expected to make an effort to integrate into American society. Freedom of Religion guarantees my right to practice Hinduism. It also guarantees the right for my Christian, Muslim, and Jewish colleagues to practice their own religion.


I love how the Leftists preach "Freedom and Free Speech for All" and then criticise a bunch of people exercising their Right to Freedom of Speech. Some of the posts here illustrate that hypocrisy. Freedom for everyone but the masses right??

I'm sick and tired of other minority groups imposing their beliefs on the masses. I would be ashamed if Americans had to stop eating beef just because it might offend the 1.5 Million Hindus in this country.

In fact I INSIST my American co-workers not sacrifice eating a steak just because I cannot. By accident I was served Beef at the company holiday.

I could have thrown a hissy fit like some of you here, but I behaved like an ADULT and ate the portions of the meal that were not Beef. End of issue.

I consider living in America a privilege. No one is making you live here. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you read from the Bible, Koran, Gita, or Torah. If other people want to pray, let them. What's your problem?

Are you that self absorbed that you wish to deny the majority the Right to Freedom of Expression and Speech?

If you are so offended, then move to China. I can't believe how selfish people are. They're taking the Christ out of Christmas and attempting to deny students a simple chance to pray to their God. Big friggin deal. What the heck is wrong with people in this country??

I'm saying that as an immigrant too. Go re-read my post about what I encountered in the UK. They TEACH religion in their schools. I took Religious Education for a year in my time at Cardiff High School. I was exposed to the Bible, Koran, Torah, and of course the Gita. It was a valuable experience and goes a long way to combat Racism and Hate.
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 47):
It is fair that I shall be expected to make an effort to integrate into American society. Freedom of Religion guarantees my right to practice Hinduism. It also guarantees the right for my Christian, Muslim, and Jewish colleagues to practice their own religion.


I love how the Leftists preach "Freedom and Free Speech for All" and then criticise a bunch of people exercising their Right to Freedom of Speech. Some of the posts here illustrate that hypocrisy. Freedom for everyone but the masses right??

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
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RE: Kentucky HS Graduates Defy Judge And Aclu

Tue May 23, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
What part of hearing a student or group of students recite a prayer constitutes "inflicting" anything?

To me, nothing. However, that "The thunderous applause drowned out the last part of the prayer" simply tells me that the majority these students have no true reverence, no real conception of what prayer means, and simply a blind allegiance to something that has been presented to them as "how you should think." So they're fighting for the right to pray AND the right to burst into a standing ovation during the prayer as a political statement of success, thereby denegrading the entire point of what they obviously have no clue about??? Please, someone fill me in here...

I have no problem with the students reciting the prayer; I welcome any and all opportunities for people to make a hypocrites out of themselves in public.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan

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