9VSPO
Topic Author
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Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 6:31 am

A record 10,000 women had an abortion at home last year, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service has said.

It said nearly one-third of the 32,000 terminations it provided in the first nine weeks of pregnancy had been "medical" - involving abortion drugs. The BPAS described the trend as a "success" for sexual health, but campaign groups have been critical.

Are you for or against?
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 6:44 am

Touchy subject.....

I'll just say, I dont think I could ever ask/tell my gf/fiancee/wife, etc, to have an abortion, it just wouldn't feel right (i'm single - so just being hypothetical).

I would actually want to be there for the child, and partner, thats the kinda guy I am  Smile



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Thread starter):
The BPAS described the trend as a "success" for sexual health

I'm all for personal freedom and responsibility, and I believe abortions are justified in certain instances...But there's nothing healthy about "abortion on demand" in the form of a pill, all in the name of retaining an active sex life...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
aa757first
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 6:54 am

What's the defininition of a home abortion? Prescription pills being taken at home under the advice of a doctor or one carried out soley by an untrained person? I'm pro-life, but just wondering.

AAndrew
 
Dougloid
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 6:54 am

I've got two grandchildren, two kids, and their respective spouses. They wine me and dine me and feed me like the prodigal son. I'm sure that if any of them had a fatted calf it's days would be numbered when I come to town. Vickie is six and Jackie is 1 year old and they're lovely people.

Thank heaven the ex didn't listen to me back in 1969.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
But there's nothing healthy about "abortion on demand" in the form of a pill, all in the name of retaining an active sex life...

 checkmark 

Yes, something I strongly agree about.


Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
KaiGywer
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 9:11 pm

And more is to come if abortion is made illegal. People will still want an abortion and making it illegal will only cause people to do it underground with all the risks involved. As anti-choice people are against this simply for religious reasons, it shouldn't be outlawed, as others might not share their beliefs.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 9:17 pm

I'm not too keen on 'home abortions' no matter how it's done. My greatest fear is that changes to the law may put women in a situation where they can only have an abortion in some shoddy basement at the hands of a dubious individual. Abortion should be regulated, and legal. That said, I believe governments have a greater responsibility (if they really want to lower the abortion rate) to create a national environment where women would be able to better handle the responsibilities of parenting (paid maternity leave, free child care, better financial assistance).

No sane person 'likes' abortion, but we don't live in a world where what we dislike automatically disappears.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
jap
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 9:35 pm

Jesus... tough subject.

I've had an abortion myself- for the sake of the child. I wouldn't be able to take care of a baby- especially when the man isn't in the picture anymore. And with all the problems I have, it was the best anyway. Even though I regret it today. But that's mostly the guilt of killing a defenseless creature playing a part here, not the fact that I actually wanted the baby to have a mother like me.

Adoption wasn't a possibility either- the child would wonder where he/she came from, wonder why I didn't want him/her and probably hate me for the rest of his/her life. Also, a lot of my adopted friends tell me they would rather have been dead than go through the torment of being an adoptee again.

So depending on the situation, I say it's ok for a woman to decide what's best for her unborn child. If death is better than life, then so be it. And I don't care much for men who scream "MURDER!"- they don't know what it's like  Wink

However, more control is needed. Women who don't protect themselves (which I did before you jump the gun... turned out the pill has no effect on me) and use abortion as a contraception should be shot. It shouldn't be allowed anyway.
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 9:46 pm

Quoting Jap (Reply 8):

It takes a lot of courage to speak so openly about such a delicate and intimate issue, specially in a forum like this. I admire your courage and I am sorry you had to make such a difficult choice.

Quoting Jap (Reply 8):
However, more control is needed. Women who don't protect themselves (which I did before you jump the gun... turned out the pill has no effect on me) and use abortion as a contraception should be shot. It shouldn't be allowed anyway.

What should not be allowed? Abortion? we have to deal many, many times with babies that are born with all sorts of problems from parents who do not even see them once (once!) after birth. These babies are not even given for adoption, they are simply "shoved" into an asylum since there is no hope for them. I think that having an abortion, albeit painful and with ever-lasting consequences, should be always an option for cases in which the welfare of the child (and mother) will be severely compromised, both physically as well as socially.

With that said, I feel very frustrated that decades of sexual education, of intense mass-media advertising about the need from precaution (besides getting pregnant, women may be getting all sorts of STD's) seem to have brought about little in terms of actual safe sex practices, particularly among adolescents.

If anyone is against abortion, I would say they should either engage in real campaigning for education of children and teenagers (and not by proclaiming that abstinence is the best method - it is unrealistic and dangerous to think young people will abide to that) and/or creating/supporting shelters or institutions that deal with the amount of unwanted children in the world. Otherwise, cruel as it may sound, I think abortion is a valid solution.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
duke
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6):



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6):
And more is to come if abortion is made illegal. People will still want an abortion and making it illegal will only cause people to do it underground with all the risks involved. As anti-choice people are against this simply for religious reasons, it shouldn't be outlawed, as others might not share their beliefs.

An ignorant comment. Some atheists are also against abortion on demand, as they see it for what it is - the taking of a human life, a fact which has been medically proven.
 
jap
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 9):
What should not be allowed? Abortion?

First, thanks for your kind words.

Secondly, abortion should be allowed- but being able to use it as a contraception shouldn't... Of course it wouldn't help to force these girls to have the babies as the babies would probably suffer.

Let me give you an example... when I went to school, I was in the same class as a girl who, at age 16, had had THREE surgical abortions. Whenever someone mentioned condoms, her response was- "why? You can just have the 'accident' removed!".

Girls like that need to be educated.
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Jap (Reply 11):
Girls like that need to be educated.

First of all, Jap, let me apologize - I misunderstood your post.

Secondly, I think you are too kind with a girl like this. This girl should be taken to an IVF center, and watch the enormous effort it is for some parents to get pregnant. She should also be shown what consequences all these abortions will have for her own ability of procreating in the future. And then assist in a few abortions to see what exactly is removed.

Unfortunately, as we have discussed on a thread about a 12 y.o. pregnant, education comes ultimately from home. As long as parents are relapse in educating their children about the value of a human life and the responsibility towards children to their own offspring cases like these are bound to repeat themselves.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
KaiGywer
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Duke (Reply 10):
An ignorant comment. Some atheists are also against abortion on demand, as they see it for what it is - the taking of a human life, a fact which has been medically proven.

Please point out what was ignorant. If you say it's not religious, then fine, but most of the demonstrations over here are by overly Christian people.

And you can't say there won't be underground (and dangerous) abortions if it is outlawed..
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Dougloid
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 11:24 pm

I concur. Takes a lot of heart for a woman to stand up in public and say "I've had an abortion" and set out the rationale for it.

The problems that lie behind the argument relate to widely divergent world views, further complicated by resorting to sloganeering and demagoguery.
The truth lies somewhere in between.

One thing has puzzled me over the years is the trivialization of fathers, what their role should be, and what their responsibilities are to the unborn. I was looking at a website the other day which has several pages of interesting statistics on the teenage mother phenomenon and it said nothing about fathers and their responsibilities at all. Often they're marginalized or characterized as empty headed sperm donors with no standing to even open their mouths and voice an opinion. Certainly, the pro abortion people are not interested in hearing from prospective fathers.

One thing I've learned is that if you treat people like idiots or third class citizens, they usually will get busy showing you what idiots they can be.

Back in the day where I grew up, girls occasionally did get pregnant. You always knew who was dad, because he dropped out of school and the next time you saw him he was working as a box boy at the A&P struggling with the GED and paying the rent on a small apartment over a store. His life had suddenly changed.

There was a normative force that is missing today.

Shotgun weddings will make a man of you. I was at one. It was my own, point of fact, and both families were holding the shotguns. That being said, with the perspective that only age can give, I think on the whole making people take ownership of their errors of judgment, even though it has life changing results, is a worthwhile thing. I certainly can see the wisdom of it at this remove. That, and two lovely grandchildren make the point amply for me.

One starts down the road to self interest, eugenics, and ultimately the death camp by making it easy to dispose of a fetus and dehumanizing it with empty headed rhetoric. Making abortion anything other than difficult to obtain is an exceedingly dangerous social policy.

Having said all that, the best way for the pro abortion people to advance their cause is precisely that-consistently dehumanize the fetus and trivialize the father. These days, abortion is no more than a bad method of family planning. We're bound to pay for bad social policy in divers ways.

As Jefferson said, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting 9VSPO (Thread starter):
Are you for or against?

I don't care either way whether it's the morning after pill, or surgery, or a coat hanger. I'd just like to see more people think before they act. No one wants an abortion, and if everyone put a little more thought into their actions (I know, revolutionary concept) we could reduce abortions by over 90% probably.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Certainly, the pro abortion people are not interested in hearing from prospective fathers.

No sane person is 'pro abortion'. They may be pro-life, but how can anyone get a kick out of an abortion?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Making abortion anything other than difficult to obtain is an exceedingly dangerous social policy.

You don't think that forcing women into basement abortions is more dangerous than this threat to society you're talking about?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Shotgun weddings will make a man of you.

It also has the potential to make two people very unhappy, although this is obviously not the case for you.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
I think on the whole making people take ownership of their errors of judgment, even though it has life changing results, is a worthwhile thing.

For you, maybe. For you, going through with a pregnancy may be the right decision. But society isn't made up of multiples of you, or me; it's a collection of individuals with unique lives and different backgrounds. I think it's incorrect for you to want your opinion forced on people.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
I don't care either way whether it's the morning after pill, or surgery, or a coat hanger

Well, I do care: Morning after pill: increased risk of Stroke, cardiovascular problems, pituitary dysfunction
Surgery: adhesions in the Uterus, perforation, bleeding.
Coat Hanger: infection, septicemia, death.

At least where abortion is legal these women have a chance of undergoing a procedure with minimal risk to themselves.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
One thing I've learned is that if you treat people like idiots or third class citizens, they usually will get busy showing you what idiots they can be.

Well, sometimes you can treat them as 1st class citizens and they will still behave as trash. I believe that once a "level" of education has been established and reached for a certain family, there is little room for improvement.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
consistently dehumanize the fetus and trivialize the father.

This is an interesting point. Dehumanize the fetus is a consequence of empowering women, since it is their body and nothing else. However, it is the truth. In a situation where both mother and fetus are in jeopardy, preference is given to save that one who is already "alive" - the mother. Since 68,5% of all conceptions end up NOT resulting in an alive birth, over-humanizing fetuses may also be detrimental.
Nonetheless, the trivialization of the father is a reality. We seldom see a conjoint decision-making between parents, particularly when the couple is young, regarding difficult medical situations with the children. I think that men are often to blame for that - and the lack of responsibility a sign of the abysmally minute value a child has nowadays for many young people.

If you want to reduce abortion, improve education in general - parents and children alike. Otherwise, it is a lost cause, IMHO.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Tue May 30, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 17):
Well, I do care: Morning after pill: increased risk of Stroke, cardiovascular problems, pituitary dysfunction
Surgery: adhesions in the Uterus, perforation, bleeding.
Coat Hanger: infection, septicemia, death.

What about the one you forgot? Birth control pills and a condom Silly?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jap
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
I'd just like to see more people think before they act. No one wants an abortion, and if everyone put a little more thought into their actions (I know, revolutionary concept) we could reduce abortions by over 90% probably.

I hope you're bloody kidding me! MOST women don't just go to the doc saying "Hi! I'd like an abortion!"- most women actually cry, mourn and think it through!

It's not humanly possible to go through what I've been through without feeling ANYTHING. If you don't react, your body will. And you WILL get depressed. Some more than others.

As surprising as it sounds NO ONE goes through an abortion without really thinking about it. And if they do, they regret it afterwards and certainly won't ever do it again!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
What about the one you forgot? Birth control pills and a condom Silly?

That's a bit too late if you're already pregnant.
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
No one wants an abortion

Some women don't have a choice, such as in rape cases, where usually the female decides it is best not to complete the pregnancy, which I truly understand.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
No sane person is 'pro abortion'. They may be pro-life, but how can anyone get a kick out of an abortion?

I'm certainly not "pro abortion" but if for any reason, my other half was compelled to have one, then I would support it, because in the end, she would be the one carrying the baby, not me.

However i wouldn't go upto her and say, "hey nows not the time for a baby, so u have to abort it no matter what". Why would anyone?

Quoting Jap (Reply 19):
MOST women don't just go to the doc saying "Hi! I'd like an abortion!"- most women actually cry, mourn and think it through!

Correct, 99% of women do think it through, however there are a small minority who think an abortion is something they can "have" as an when the feel the need - pretty pityful IMO.



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 12:54 am

You shouldn't have done that! He's Just a boy! poor little feller...
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15212
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Jap (Reply 19):
most women actually cry, mourn and think it through!

Yeah, AFTER the fact.

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 20):
Some women don't have a choice, such as in rape cases

They are a small minority, particularly in the EU and US.

Quoting Jap (Reply 19):
That's a bit too late if you're already pregnant.

Yeah, that's the point. Think about it BEFORE you're pregnant, and you wont have to "cry, mourn, and think it through"...you can go straight to the shame, embarassment, and regret of sleeping with a bar troll and completely skip the invasive surgery portion of the affair Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
No sane person is 'pro abortion'. They may be pro-life, but how can anyone get a kick out of an abortion?

Just to clarify, I meant to write "pro-choice" as opposed to "pro-life" in the second sentence.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
deltagator
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Thread starter):
Are you for or against?

Tough question that is sure to stir up the pot. Personally I am against it as a form of contraceptive. If the life of the mother is threatened then fine. If the mother is raped or the victim of incest (most likely rape) then fine. I know if I was in that situation I would want nothing to do with something that is made up of half of the monster who did the rape. As someone who is adopted I am thankful that I was given a chance. Yes, I was born before Roe v. Wade, but we all know back alley abortions happened even then. The problem with this question is that so many people are going to fall one way or the other with little room in the middle. It is such a polarizing question that we have ended up with it being a litmus test for almost anyone who wants to hold elected office in the USA.

Quoting Jap (Reply 8):
Adoption wasn't a possibility either- the child would wonder where he/she came from, wonder why I didn't want him/her and probably hate me for the rest of his/her life.

As someone who is adopted I can tell you that thought has never entered my mind. I've even met my birth mother and I don't hate her one bit. While she has been successful with her life had I been a part of it she wouldn't be where she is today. I also would not have made it to where I am today either and for that I thank her for giving me up and my real parents for raising me right. She and I no longer talk but that is for different reasons than her putting me up for adoption.

Quoting Jap (Reply 8):
a lot of my adopted friends tell me they would rather have been dead than go through the torment of being an adoptee again.

Perhaps in older children that get passed around the foster care system but not if you gave them up at birth. Truthfully the only reason why I even know I'm adopted is because my parents decided to tell me on their terms before my drunk grandfather decided to tell me on his.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Takes a lot of heart for a woman to stand up in public and say "I've had an abortion" and set out the rationale for it.

Yes, it does. I may not agree with it in many cases but it takes guts to speak out about it.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
TedTAce
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 1:44 am

If we held up our responsibilities as parents, our children would be smart enough to not find themselves in this position to begin with. That being said; anyone who's dumb enough to 'accidently' get pregnant is probably doing society a favor by terminating the fetus. IMHO there are plety of people on the planet. 6 billion+ is a VERY large party. If there's something 6 billion people can't get done (besides live peacefully), I'd like to know what it is and why it's that important.
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jap
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 25):
That being said; anyone who's dumb enough to 'accidently' get pregnant is probably doing society a favor by terminating the fetus.

Why thank you...  Yeah sure

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
Yeah, AFTER the fact.

No, before. You really think it's easy for a woman to make a decision like that? Tough break- it ISN'T. For the 1% that actually use it as contraception, it probably is. But for the rest, it's heartbreaking.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
Yeah, that's the point. Think about it BEFORE you're pregnant, and you wont have to "cry, mourn, and think it through"...you can go straight to the shame, embarassment, and regret of sleeping with a bar troll and completely skip the invasive surgery portion of the affair Silly

You really are dumb. Get back to me when you've been a woman and you've actually been in a situation like this.
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
9VSPO
Topic Author
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 2:11 am

I think it's upto the individual whatever they decide. I think it's a very difficult decision to make and I respect any decision that person makes.  Smile

Thankyou Jap for being so honest.  Smile
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Jap (Reply 26):
You really are dumb. Get back to me when you've been a woman and you've actually been in a situation like this.

Calm down there. I'm not the one that said anyone should be shot.

Quoting Jap (Reply 8):
Women who don't protect themselves (which I did before you jump the gun... turned out the pill has no effect on me) and use abortion as a contraception should be shot

Also, if you've read anything I've said, you would see that all I want is that one take all precautions beforehand to minimize the possibility of a pregnancy, and then we won't have to worry about 90% of the abortions that occur in the developed world.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
TedTAce
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Jap (Reply 26):
Why thank you... Yeah sure

You are welcome. If being on the pill and using a condom are not enough, ok, fine, I understand a TRUE accident. But I think you know as well as I do that MOST terminated pregnancies are a result of carelesness. In this day and age there are too many ways to stop a pregnancy for it to be an accident. If you choose to not take advantage of them, touch shit. You talk about the decision to terminate being touch? Well what about the decision to do everything possible to NOT be in that position in the first place?
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jap
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 29):
Well what about the decision to do everything possible to NOT be in that position in the first place?

I/we did. So.

What you just wrote didn't really come through in your original post. Just seemed like you described everyone who have an abortion as stupid, which certainly isn't the case. What about the men? AFAIK, they carry half of the responsibility when the act is on. No one raises an eyebrow there.

I doubt most abortion are done because people are careless. A condom is only 97% safe, the pill 99.9%. So when you ARE on the pill, a condom wouldn't really make a difference. Unless you're part of the 0.1% where it actually would.
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
TedTAce
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Jap (Reply 30):
What about the men?

In a perfect world they carry the baby for 4.5 months. If they did; then they'd bare more responsibility. Unfortunately while you are right in concept and in what should be right, the reality is the gun is aimed at you, given the choice are you going to wear one bullet proof vest or two given the choice?

Quoting Jap (Reply 30):
So when you ARE on the pill, a condom wouldn't really make a difference.

I beg to differ. And lets not talk about what you can get by 'just being on the pill' w/out getting preggers  Sad
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kazzie
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 25):
That being said; anyone who's dumb enough to 'accidently' get pregnan

Mistakes, Accidents can happen, precaution or not.
Bazinga punk.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting Kazzie (Reply 32):
Mistakes, Accidents can happen, precaution or not.

 checkmark 




Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
jap
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 31):
I beg to differ. And lets not talk about what you can get by 'just being on the pill' w/out getting preggers Sad

I agree. But that's not how you think if you haven't been in the situation. "that won't happen to me"- and that's not necessarily being stupid, because the pill along with the condom is also 99.9%... which is the same as the pill, percentage-wise...

Two forms of contraceptions are always safer than one. But nothing is 100%.
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting Jap (Reply 30):
What about the men? AFAIK, they carry half of the responsibility when the act is on.

Yeah but they get zero input after the fact.

Quoting Jap (Reply 30):
So when you ARE on the pill, a condom wouldn't really make a difference.

Oy. That's false.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jap
Posts: 2196
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):

Yeah but they get zero input after the fact.

You don't want to know who actually made the decission in my case then  Wink

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Oy. That's false.

Read the post just before yours... the one made by me.
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 pm

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Jap (Reply 34):
Two forms of contraceptions are always safer than one. But nothing is 100%.

Some people say abstinence is 100% guaranteed. However, as it says in the Bible, apparently there is one case in which even with complete Abstinence a woman got pregnant... go figure.

 duck 

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Certainly, the pro abortion people are not interested in hearing from prospective fathers.

No sane person is 'pro abortion'. They may be pro-life, but how can anyone get a kick out of an abortion?

I think the record is clear on this subject. Some people are for unlimited access to abortion, no questions asked. That qualifies as pro abortion, and yelling at the top of one's lungs about the 'right to choose' does not change that fact.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Making abortion anything other than difficult to obtain is an exceedingly dangerous social policy.

You don't think that forcing women into basement abortions is more dangerous than this threat to society you're talking about?

Have you heard about the epidemic of abortions in China because of the one child policy and the traditional bias toward having sons?
How about that happening in some future day here in the states, if we suddenly decide as a society that eugenics are back in fashion? All very nice and legal, too.
Do you call that bad social policy? It comes straight from unlimited abortion on demand no questions asked as some would have it.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Shotgun weddings will make a man of you.

It also has the potential to make two people very unhappy, although this is obviously not the case for you.

What I'm talking about is having people take the responsibility for their bad choices, before they decide in the breach to end the life of what would undoubtedly become a child and is a fellow sentient being dependent on an umbilical cord. Making people behave like adults, in other words. It's called personal accountability.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
I think on the whole making people take ownership of their errors of judgment, even though it has life changing results, is a worthwhile thing.

For you, maybe. For you, going through with a pregnancy may be the right decision. But society isn't made up of multiples of you, or me; it's a collection of individuals with unique lives and different backgrounds. I think it's incorrect for you to want your opinion forced on people.

It's no different than asking people to be responsible for their debts, abstain from criminal behavior, and avoid spreading disease and committing crimes. The fact is, we as a society regulate behavior and impose that consensus it on others, if you want to take it that way, all the time.

As a practical matter, if we spent as much time and effort educating boys on what it takes to be men (instead of being life support systems for penises) as we do on making them pay their bills it would be a much better world we live in.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
jap
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 37):
Some people say abstinence is 100% guaranteed. However, as it says in the Bible, apparently there is one case in which even with complete Abstinence a woman got pregnant... go figure.

a "virgin" in biblical terms isn't one who hasn't had sex  Wink

In those times, it was normal for a man to get his woman pregnant by another man to confirm that she was indeed fertile...

"virgin" just means that she hasn't had sex with her husband actually  Silly

Makes you think, doesn't it?  Wink
Scandinavian chick with a scandinavian horse- oh yeah! :D
 
flyingbabydoc
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 pm

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Jap (Reply 39):
Makes you think, doesn't it?

Oh indeed... Biblical terms are always quite "interesting"... I like when they are used in one way when necessary, then turned 180° when the message to be "conveyed" is different. But let's not get into that here - we are talking about abortion, not literature  Wink

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 25):
That being said; anyone who's dumb enough to 'accidently' get pregnant is probably doing society a favor by terminating the fetus

That is a very harsh statement. Although many people that get pregnant "by accident" are immature and not ready for parenthood, many do take the opportunity and raise a great child. Indiscriminate extermination of fetuses based on intelligence of the parents is a rather Orwellian concept, if not worse....

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 40):

That is a very harsh statement. Although many people that get pregnant "by accident" are immature and not ready for parenthood, many do take the opportunity and raise a great child. Indiscriminate extermination of fetuses based on intelligence of the parents is a rather Orwellian concept, if not worse....

I guess I should have further qualified it. But in my experience; 1/100 pregancies are truly 'accidental'. The 99 other players call it an accident; but in reality there was no real/genuine attempt at preventing the pregnancy. I have sympathy for those who genuinely tried and still got pregnant while using condom and birth control. I might show a little bit of sympathy for a couple using only one of above, but anyone not using the pill or a condom gets 0 sympathy from me.

Now this might sound cavalier in saying 'it's just a fetus', but the baby/fetus huggers are not thinking about population control logically. I'm not saying ANYONE should be forced to have an abortion. I'm saying they shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it.

If 2/3 of the planet died tomorrow there would STILL be 2 BILLION people left!! Why we need to add to the already bulging 6 billion with unwanted children defies my ability to comphrend.
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flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 41):
If 2/3 of the planet died tomorrow there would STILL be 2 BILLION people left!! Why we need to add to the already bulging 6 billion with unwanted children defies my ability to comphrend.

Although in theory I agree with you, it is difficult IMO to establish who should have children and who should not; who is truly unwanted and who can be adopted and have a wonderful life with forster parents.

One example: there are many gay/lesbian couples who could be excellent parents. Why is adoption for them such an issue, if the children are indeed unwanted? Not to mention the hordes of childless couples that have to go through hell to adopt a child.

Maybe a better distribution of these "unwanted" among the 6 Billion would make a big difference.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Thread starter):
A record 10,000 women had an abortion at home last year, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service has said.

Oh dear, I believe I've soiled myself.

Signed,
Alberchico
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 42):
it is difficult IMO to establish who should have children and who should not

I say it's impossible for any human to really make that choice though it happens every day. That being said I think those choices result in better children as a whole.

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 42):
gay/lesbian couples

I would love to see the US pull it's head out of it's ass on this one, but alas; we are too busy reading deuteronomy to care about giving children who deserve good homes a loving and caring environment.

Considering our priority is a book written almost 2,000 years ago, I say 'we' ought to be the first 200 odd million to go.

This country would be a lot better if it was left with 20-40 million people who cared more about doing things that really make sense instead of antiquated BS from a book.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 42):
Why is adoption for them such an issue, if the children are indeed unwanted?

Stupidity...no other reason. I bet on average they'd be better parents since homosexuals can't accidentally have children. They have to want children and be able to afford them before they can even think of adopting or going through any procedures.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 pm

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 44):
This country would be a lot better if it was left with 20-40 million people who cared more about doing things that really make sense instead of antiquated BS from a book.

Well, reading from my posts, I guess you can pretty much conclude I agree with you 100%. A life of suffering, abuse and neglect cannot be better than a stable life with parents regardless of gender. I refuse to believe that people can abide to rules that are so obviously outdated.

Anyways, let's hope more and more people see clearly in the future, and more and more children may be adopted.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 46):
more and more children may be adopted.

And are not concieved in the first place  Smile End unwanted conception (including rape), and the only reason for abortion is the life of the mother.
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Dougloid
Posts: 7248
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RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 42):
Although in theory I agree with you, it is difficult IMO to establish who should have children and who should not; who is truly unwanted and who can be adopted and have a wonderful life with forster parents.

One of the great weaknesses of eugenics was that it proposed to do the unthinkable based on what we now know is bad science. Marvin Harris points out that the physical characteristics that we call "race" are much less significant in the genetic scheme of things than other variables. Modern science has completely undermined the theories of the eugenics movement and its adherents.

One of the better known present day eugenicists was Garrett Hardin, the environmentalist author who posited "the tragedy of the commons". Beloved of the environmental movement, most folks probably never read the other stuff Hardin wrote or they'd be ashamed of themselves for being duped so easily. Of course, he must have taken his propaganda at face value because he offed himself.

Every complex problem has a simple answer that is invariably wrong.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Home Abortions 'hit Record High'

Wed May 31, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 44):
Considering our priority is a book written almost 2,000 years ago, I say 'we' ought to be the first 200 odd million to go.

This country would be a lot better if it was left with 20-40 million people who cared more about doing things that really make sense instead of antiquated BS from a book.

Wow. Welcome to my respected users list, for whatever it's worth. My sentiments exactly.

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