Cadet57
Topic Author
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Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 10:41 pm

These were such nice cars. We had a '96 in our house and we loved it. I want to get one once my current car is paid off. They are so popular according to the dealers i've spoken to and they are hard to get at auctions. I know the new bodies were not as popular, but why did they pull the plug?
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dl021
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 10:47 pm

Because not enough people were buying them to justify continued production. Pontiacs are often sold at combined Buick/Pontiac/GMC stores where the Bonneville competed directly with Buick platforms. With the reduction in demand for that size American car GM had to make decisions about which manufacturor divisions would be the primary large car marques. Buick and Cadillac were the winners of this internal struggle with Oldsmobile losing completely and Pontiac focusing on their sporty image with the middle price point.

Chevy still offers a mid and full size lineup with the Impala SS now coming in a V-8 which should interest you if you liked the Bonneville.
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SmithAir747
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 10:49 pm

Is it true that they've stopped Bonneville production?

Living over here in London since 2004, I have not kept up with US car production.

I have a dark metallic green 1998 Bonneville SE (with SSEi luxury package--leather seats, brass wheels) that I got used at a local dealership in Auburn, IN, in June 2002, quite cheap.

I LOVE this car, and so do my mother and other family members. When I was home in the USA, and whenever Mom needed a backup car, she would borrow it--and loved it. Now that I'm living in London, Mom keeps it stored in the detached garage for when I come home again for the summer (this year, not until August!). This car has been very reliable, and has had only one major repair--while it was still under warranty.

Too bad there are no Bonneville wagons today! They used to have a wagon version back in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s.

Why was the Bonneville production cancelled now? It has always been a good family sedan and sporty luxury car (and wagon when they made wagons).

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
Cadet57
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
Pontiac focusing on their sporty image with the middle price point.

 yes  Im looking at the Grand Am GT as well as I had a '95 and loved it.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
Chevy still offers a mid and full size lineup with the Impala SS now coming in a V-8 which should interest you if you liked the Bonneville.

I dont like the styling. And V8 isnt for me, I use too much gas as it is now.

But im looking at a 97-99 bonneville, I like the styling of those.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting SmithAir747 (Reply 2):
Is it true that they've stopped Bonneville production?

Yup,  Sad In the '03 or '04 model year.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
deltagator
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 10:51 pm

Damn, DL021 beat me to it.

Pontiac - sporty image for younger folks
Buick - larger cars for middle aged folks
Cadillac - larger cars for older folks
Chevy - various cars across all categories and price points other than luxury
GM - Trucks/SUVs
Oldsmobile - sadly, a great name killed off
Hummer - overpriced boy toys for guys with small packages
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
prosa
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
Buick - larger cars for middle aged folks
Cadillac - larger cars for older folks

Buick buyers often are past middle age. The last I heard, the average age of a Buick buyer was something like 60 to 65.
As for Cadillac, while I haven't seen any statistics I wouldn't be surprised if the average buyer age has dropped significantly in recent years, thanks to the Escalade.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Cadet57
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 6):
, thanks to the Escalade.

Sadly. A poor excuse for an SUV and a blemish on the name of Cadillac
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Dougloid
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
Damn, DL021 beat me to it.

Pontiac - sporty image for younger folks
Buick - larger cars for middle aged folks
Cadillac - larger cars for older folks
Chevy - various cars across all categories and price points other than luxury
GM - Trucks/SUVs
Oldsmobile - sadly, a great name killed off
Hummer - overpriced boy toys for guys with small packages

If the current shit doesn't kill the General, it shall make the General strong.

I saw a Pontiac Solstice the other day....sweeeeeeeet.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
prosa
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Wed May 31, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
Quoting PROSA (Reply 6):
thanks to the Escalade.

Sadly. A poor excuse for an SUV and a blemish on the name of Cadillac

Well maybe, but the Escalade is selling well and is getting younger people interested in Cadillacs for the first time in years.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
I dont like the styling. And V8 isnt for me, I use too much gas as it is now.

Chevy V-8s get the same MPG as most V-6s. My 5.7 litre Trans-Am and my old Maxima got the exact same mileage. Im sure those V-8s are just as efficient as the LS-1.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
Cadillac - larger cars for older folks

Not anymore

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
Buick - larger cars for middle aged folks

Not anymore

Quoting PROSA (Reply 6):
Buick buyers often are past middle age. The last I heard, the average age of a Buick buyer was something like 60 to 65.
As for Cadillac, while I haven't seen any statistics I wouldn't be surprised if the average buyer age has dropped significantly in recent years, thanks to the Escalade.

Yep, you beat me to it.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
Sadly. A poor excuse for an SUV and a blemish on the name of Cadillac

The Tahoe/Suburban platform is the best selling, and most useful SUV on the market. Period. Chevy is the base, GMCs are a bit nicer, Caddy has the most options, and the Hummer just has a different body and more off road options. All the very same vehicle at heart.

Every car company does this, and those that didn't have learned. See Lexus for example. Also, Caddy is selling a modified Corvette with the Caddy badge, why not complain about that too?

How could you possibly be surprised that GM is selling the same frame under different badges, they have done this since time began.

Childish statement with other motives.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
deltagator
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 10):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
Cadillac - larger cars for older folks

Not anymore

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
Buick - larger cars for middle aged folks

Not anymore

True, they are changing their target groups but they still trend towards these as they move towards their goal.

I think the Escalade should come with an option for cheap rims at reduced cost so you can go buy 24" spinner rims with neon and not break the bank.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 11):
I think the Escalade should come with an option for cheap rims at reduced cost so you can go buy 24" spinner rims with neon and not break the bank.

I once bought a Ford 4x4 with wheels and tires deleted, they shipped it with cheapo steel rims and tires and the dealer installed my wheels and tires bought locally. They didn't even blink when I asked, took it off the sticker price, and didn't charge me to put them on..

Seeing that I have found GM more flexible than Ford, you might want to ask.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
A332
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:34 am

It's really too bad that the Bonneville was cancelled... those recent GXP editions were totally sweet... though at the same time, we get the new Grand Prix GXP to play with!

Nothing wrong with the Escalade either... they are still big sellers for GM and most of us still really want one (I know I do!)  Wink
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PHLBOS
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:35 am

Part of the reason for the Bonneville's demise can also be blamed on the current Pontiac Grand Prix sedan (which has been around since the late 90s IIRC) mainly because the GP had grown to a point where it was just too closely sized to the Bonneville (example: both current generation models sport a 110 inch wheelbase).

While Buick stretched its final generation LeSabre somewhat (to a 112 inch wheelbase) to distance itself from the '98 mid-size Century/Regal (109 inch wheelbase); Pontiac essentially kept its H-body Bonneville the same size it was since it first rolled out in 1987. That was a big mistake on Pontiac's part; especially since the Bonneville had a much higher sticker price than the Grand Prix. As far as Pontiac buyers are concerned; why spend more money on a car, if there's another one that's practically the same size w/similar options & equipment for thousands less?

I won't even comment at all at the pathetic second-generation Olds Auroura that replaced all the large FWD Oldmobiles (88/98/Regency/first-generation Auroura).
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
slider
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 6):
Buick buyers often are past middle age. The last I heard, the average age of a Buick buyer was something like 60 to 65.
As for Cadillac, while I haven't seen any statistics I wouldn't be surprised if the average buyer age has dropped significantly in recent years, thanks to the Escalade.

That Buick Lucerne is a sharp looking car- I peeked on the inside of a parked one and it doesn't have the "old person dash" that's straight across either. Very nice car and one I'd contemplate if I were in that market.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 14):
Part of the reason for the Bonneville's demise can also be blamed on the current Pontiac Grand Prix sedan (which has been around since the late 90s IIRC) mainly because the GP had grown to a point where it was just too closely sized to the Bonneville (example: both current generation models sport a 110 inch wheelbase).

Right on target- they cannibalized their own line. Typical GM forethought sadly. Take a great old name, build a new car, slap the badge on it and expect sales.

Pontiac could have capitalized on the retro craze early with the Bonneville, but they didn't.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 15):
That Buick Lucerne is a sharp looking car- I peeked on the inside of a parked one and it doesn't have the "old person dash" that's straight across either. Very nice car and one I'd contemplate if I were in that market.

I like it very much. Very Camry/Accord like to me, but a little more stylish.

Still not as young and agressive as the Caddys though. It is taking a lot of convincing to get my Mom into an CTS or STS from a Olds 98 Regency, to her they look like they should be Chevys. She's 80, but you would think 65 if you met her. That used to be prime Caddy demographics.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Thread starter):
Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Good question Justin. The answer is simple: GM is run by idiots! or should I say, idiot bean counters. GM will continue to struggle as long as accountants are running the ship, instead of engineers. A car company needs to be run by car guys. When they brought in Bob Lutz, I thought things were going to shake up. Unfortunately, the accountants didn't give Lutz the balls to back up his car guy reputation.

I have a 70 Pontiac GTO:
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...8147&filename=1149099951BluZK4.jpg

This car is my pride and joy. Yeah, compared to my BMW, this thing drives like a marshmallow covered turd. But it is one fast turd! My point is, my GTO was built when GM was run by engineers. John DeLorean created the car. He was an engineer who worked his way up through the ranks. Lee Iaccoca was the same way at Ford, the father of the Mustang.
Lutz wanted the new GTO for Pontiac. But once they gave it the go ahead, they rushed it and it was not well received. GM brass issued a stern warning to the advertising department concerning the GTO. "Don't you dare call it a muscle car!" WTF!!!! What were they thinking? Have you seen the latest Mustang commercial? Some young kid doing burnouts with his Dad? What is GM scared of? Ford has no problem marketing it's Mustang as a performance car. And how are sales doing for the Mustang? Ford can't build them fast enough!!!!!

GM always seems to miss the mark. If they would stop selling 12 different versions of every f*cking truck they build, and give the consumer a decent car, that will compete with the likes of Accord/Camry, then they may begin to see some black ink. I mean, seriously, why the hell are there a dozen versions of the Tahoe/Yukon? The Escalade? Barf!!!  vomit  What a freaking, pimped out, bloated, over priced, ugly shrine to extreme consumerism! And the Hummer H2/3? That one has me scratching my head, saying, huh??
Sorry, I digress. With Pontiac, they always seem to kill off something, just when they get it right. Take the Fiero for instance. Love it or hate it, it was a fairly popular car, for it's time. Despite it's humble Chevette  vomit  underpinnings, it was a sporty runabout. So, finally, in 88, they give it a sweet new suspension, worthy of it's sport car look, and what do you think GM does? Pulls the plug. The Bonneville always had the "potential" to be a great car. But great cars are not made by piling on 250 pounds of plastic body mouldings. So finally, in 2004, a sweet, freshened Bonneville appears, devoid of all the extraneous body add on's, and what does GM do? Pulls the plug! The last Bonneville was the best looking Bonne of the current body style. So what if it has the same wheelbase as the Grand Prix. Nissan doesn't seem to have a problem selling the Altima and Maxima side by side. There was a time, when the Altima was actually larger and more powerful than the Maxima.
I had a Grand Prix as a loaner on day. The car was ok. But the thing I didn't like about it was that it just felt "cheap." That's the only way to describe it. My best friend, who worked 20 year in the auto body biz, always told me, "GM cars always seem old, before they are old."
I have found that to be very true.

GM really needs to shake things up, or it is doomed to failure. I would hate to see that, on so many levels.

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
I mean, seriously, why the hell are there a dozen versions of the Tahoe/Yukon? The Escalade?

Because the profit margin is twice that of a 4 door sedan. They are just pickups with welded on camper shells sold for twice what a pickup costs. Pretty smart if you ask me.

Besides, they make a respectable profit on every car they sell, it is just not enough to cover pension and benefit obligations to FORMER employees.

Non union Toyota has no long term obligations to employees. You get hurt, you get fired. Retirement? That's your problem.

GM and Ford both agreed to deals with the UAW that have had long term negative repercussions for GM and Ford with long term positive repercussions for former employees. Those decisions were made long ago, and not with the 21st century in mind.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
With Pontiac, they always seem to kill off something, just when they get it right.

I have a 2000 Trans Am, couldn't agree more.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
Nissan doesn't seem to have a problem selling the Altima and Maxima side by side

Chevy had no problem selling the Corsica and the Cavalier at the same time because both sold well. The Corsica was supposed to replace the Cavalier but it wouldn't stop selling. So its not like they are not familiar with the benefits.

[Edited 2006-05-31 21:46:19]
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
deltagator
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
GM is run by idiots! or should I say, idiot bean counters. GM will continue to struggle as long as accountants are running the ship, instead of engineers. A car company needs to be run by car guys.

While bean counters serve a purpose running a car company isn't one of them. Of course letting the engineers run the company would be a bad thing as well. They both need adult supervision. GM is just so bloated that they can't react quickly to things like the Japanese car makers can do.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
I have a 70 Pontiac GTO

Freakin' Sweet!

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
But great cars are not made by piling on 250 pounds of plastic body mouldings.

I've found this was the distinguishing characteristic of Pontiacs for some time now. Lots of body molding trying to look cool but ultimately failing.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
But the thing I didn't like about it was that it just felt "cheap."

When I was looking at cars right out of college I looked at the Chevy Blazer. I was immediately turned off to it when I saw the 2WD/4WD selector. It had a diagram of the drivetrain and part of it would light up in orange in 2WD and all of it in 4WD. It looked cheap, tacky, and an indicator for some dumbass who can't understand 2WD vs 4WD by reading a selector knob.

My wife has a 1995 Buick Regal that my grandmother gave us. It only has 80K miles on it in 11 years and the interior finish is a piece of crap compared to my 1996 Honda Accord with almost 200K on it. I always feel like I'm going to break something in it when I touch the dash or doors handles.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
dan-air
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:49 am

I owned three Bonnevilles, one after the other. '88, '92, '94. Great cars. I downsized to a Grand Prix and that was a solid ride too.
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
Because the profit margin is twice that of a 4 door sedan.

Yes, I would agree with that, and add, for right now, if it weren't for GM trucks, GM would be in the toilet.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
I have a 2000 Trans Am, couldn't agree more.

My next door neighbor, after hearing of the cancellation of the F body cars, went right out and purchased one of the last Camaro SS Convetibles made. That was 2002. He still has the car in his garage, and I think it may have 2500 miles on it.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
I've found this was the distinguishing characteristic of Pontiacs for some time now. Lots of body molding trying to look cool but ultimately failing.

Yep, that was what distinguished Pontiac from Chevy. However, as with the last Bonneville, who would have known such a sweet car lurked under all that?

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
My wife has a 1995 Buick Regal that my grandmother gave us. It only has 80K miles on it in 11 years and the interior finish is a piece of crap compared to my 1996 Honda Accord with almost 200K on it.

That's exactly what I mean. I had a guy that used to work for me. he had a Chevy Lumina at the same time, I had a Honda Accord Wagon. In a year's time, the interior of his Lumina was falling apart. Broken switchgear, worn seats, and the top of the dash was peeling up like a dried up orange rind. Meanwhile, my Accord, which I sold 7 years later, with 107K on the odometer, looked like it did when I bought it.

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:17 am

Simple.

It's a piece of shit (I have a '92 SSE at home...).
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
I saw a Pontiac Solstice the other day....sweeeeeeeet.

Did you drive it? All the reviews I've heard to date have said it's nothing special and certainly not the best performance in its price niche...

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 21):
if it weren't for GM trucks, GM would be in the toilet.

You mean they aren't in the toilet?

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
Non union Toyota has no long term obligations to employees. You get hurt, you get fired. Retirement? That's your problem.

Toyota along with every other business in the United States has full workers compensation. As for retirement, ever heard of a 401K? Just about every modern corperation in North America (well, the profitable ones at least) has moved to them.

I don't know what sort of Detroit propoganda you've been reciving, but crunch some aluminium foil on the attenna buddy because Toyota is powerful because Toyota works.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
Because the profit margin is twice that of a 4 door sedan. They are just pickups with welded on camper shells sold for twice what a pickup costs. Pretty smart if you ask me.

It wasn't smart at all. Those large SUV/truck profit margins caused GM to lose focus of equally important markets, and once energy prices soared, no one really wants an urban Land Yacht as badly as they did in 1998.

How many business professors have you encountered that didn't stress diversification? Be it personal investment, business aquisition, or product strategy, relying on a single horse is a recipe for failure.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 10):
Every car company does this, and those that didn't have learned. See Lexus for example.

There's a big difference between Toyota Motors offering three distinct brands with almost zero overlap (Toyota, Lexus, Scion) and GM offering and owning seven lines (Buick, Cadillac, Chevy, GM, Hummer, Pontiac, Saab) that do have visible overlaps.

The biggest difference: Toyota makes money and delivers higher quality cars in the process.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
Toyota along with every other business in the United States has full workers compensation. As for retirement, ever heard of a 401K? Just about every modern corperation in North America (well, the profitable ones at least) has moved to them.

I don't know what sort of Detroit propoganda you've been reciving, but crunch some aluminium foil on the attenna buddy because Toyota is powerful because Toyota works.

You dont live in a Toyota town, it is obvious. You get injured, you get fired. End of story. Workman's comp? Are you kidding me? Do you even know how it works? Do you know what UAW stands for?

Try getting a job on a line after getting fired by Toyota. Ain't gonna happen, and all you have is a CHANCE of qualifying for permanent disability. And even that dont pay the bills buddy.

I have lived in TWO Toyota towns, Lexington(Georgetown) and Evansville(Princeton) and I know what I am talking about.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
It wasn't smart at all. Those large SUV/truck profit margins caused GM to lose focus of equally important markets, and once energy prices soared, no one really wants an urban Land Yacht as badly as they did in 1998.

Hating SUVs will not get you anywhere in an argument. Is juvenile. Ignoring the sales figures is revealing of your motives too.

And you conveniently ignore the FACTS. GM is not losing money on their manufacturing, they are selling a lot of cars, and make a good profit on each and every one. Their UAW contracts are bleeding them dry, they pay more for pension and benefits to former employees per car than for the materials. These contracts were signed a long long time ago.

If you want to believe I hate Toyota, go ahead, but I have worked for them myself as a consultant. Have you? I dont hate them, but I understand that their business model only works if they stay non union and can fire at will.

Not looking at the union involvement in GM and Fords situations right now reveals that you know nothing about business, you just hate SUVs and American cars.

Grow up, and don't try to talk to an MBA about business unless you know what you are talking about. PLEASE!!! Maybe learn how to spell or use the checker too.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
The Corsica was supposed to replace the Cavalier but it wouldn't stop selling.

WRONG! The N-body Corsica/Baretta wound up being the unofficial replacement for the X-body Citation (which was discontinued after 1985).

The N-bodies (Corsica/Baretta, Grand Am, Skylark (from '86 on), Calais) had a 103 (or 103.5) inch wheelbase and were slightly longer in overall length & wider than the first-generation ('82-'93) J-bodies (Cavalier/Sunbird/Skyhawk/Firenza) which had a 101 inch wheelbase.

In reality, the first N-bodies that rolled out in 1985 (Buick Somerset Regal/Pontiac Grand Am/Olds Calais) as coupes only and were originally supposed to replace the RWD mid-size G-bodies (Monte Carlo/Grand Prix/Regal/Cutlass Supreme). However, the falling gas prices (plus the sales of the G-bodies were still going strong at the time) sent GM back to the drawing board to later (in 1988) launch the larger W-body platform.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
Nissan doesn't seem to have a problem selling the Altima and Maxima side by side. There was a time, when the Altima was actually larger and more powerful than the Maxima.

IIRC, the Maxima's sales probably took a hit during that period. A model-year by model-year comparison of the 2 models may prove some interesting findings.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
slider
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 17):
I had a Grand Prix as a loaner on day. The car was ok. But the thing I didn't like about it was that it just felt "cheap."

I agree. To the point about the plastic body cladding, that extends to the plasticky interior that Pontiac uses...they're obsessed with it. That gray plastic punctuated with big buttons, is everywhere. Tacky as hell.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
Non union Toyota has no long term obligations to employees. You get hurt, you get fired. Retirement? That's your problem.



Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 24):
I have lived in TWO Toyota towns, Lexington(Georgetown) and Evansville(Princeton) and I know what I am talking about.

So you've lived in Lexington and Georgetown, and you're saying that Toyota is not abiding by the Federal work rules governing OSHA, occupational injuries, worker's comp, etc? Sorry, but I'd wager a million that they are absolutely in compliance.
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 25):
IIRC, the Maxima's sales probably took a hit during that period. A model-year by model-year comparison of the 2 models may prove some interesting findings.

I'm sure they did.
But, even the new Maxima is not that much larger or powerful than the Altima. The Max has a 265hp 3.5 and the Alt is a 260hp. The base Maxima SE starts at $27,900, and the Altima SE starts $1000 less. Not much of a difference, and both are selling well.

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
So you've lived in Lexington and Georgetown, and you're saying that Toyota is not abiding by the Federal work rules governing OSHA, occupational injuries, worker's comp, etc? Sorry, but I'd wager a million that they are absolutely in compliance.

Didnt say that. Are you on drugs? They do the bare minimum, and treat injured employees as they do the trash, something to get rid of. See it a lot.

Not that the UAW model has worked out well for GM and others, but the UAW employees are protected in injury scenarios much much better. Without the right to work, non union Toyota employees have the same rights and recourse as a burger flipper at McDonalds. Toyota shoud treat them better than that. They do not, there is no profit in it for them. These guys are hard core, and if you think they are not, you are wrong.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 25):
WRONG! The N-body Corsica/Baretta wound up being the unofficial replacement for the X-body Citation (which was discontinued after 1985).

Calm down.

I know for certain that the Cavalier was to be replaced, the replacement was sold at the same time, and the Cavalier kept selling. Was it the Citation that was supposed to replace it? I have slept since then, not sure anymore. It was something. I think fleet sales was the reason it kept selling despite a replacement.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 28):
I know for certain that the Cavalier was to be replaced, the replacement was sold at the same time, and the Cavalier kept selling. Was it the Citation that was supposed to replace it?

I think some abridged '80s Chevy/GM history is in order because I believe your mixing up a couple of car lines here.

1980
FWD X-body (Chevy's Citation) rolls out in April 1979 replacing the larger RWD X-body Nova.

1982
FWD J-body (Chevy's Cavalier) rolls out in early 1981 replacing the RWD Vega-based Monza.

1982
FWD A-body (Chevy's Celebrity) rolls out around the same time. The FWD A-body essentially shares the X-body platform (including wheelbase) but has a larger (by nearly 10 inches) body. Originally, the FWD A-bodies were to replace the RWD A-bodies/G-bodies (Chevy Malibu) outright, but the popularity of the G-bodies (plus some of the quirks/problems that the X-bodies & early A-bodies were experiencing) delayed that plan somewhat. While the RWD Malibu line was dropped in 1984; other GM RWD G-bodies soldiered on alongside the FWD A-bodies. The last RWD G-body SEDAN produced was the 1987 Olds Cutlass. The last G-body coupes made were the 1988 Chevy Monte Carlo & Olds Cutlass Supreme Classic.

1982
Pontiac releases their version of the RWD T-body Chevette called the T-1000 (later renamed 1000).

1983-84
Rumors & speculation swirl around reconfiguring the 5 GM divisions. The proposed intent was to have Chevy & Pontiac deal only with the smaller cars and Buick, Oldsmobile & Cadillac focus on larger vehicles. This is the main reason why Buick/Olds/Cadillac would drop their J-car sisters (Skyhawk/Firenza/Cimmaron) by the late 80s and why Chevy never received its version of the FWD H-body ('86 and newer LeSabre/Delta 88 & '87 and newer Bonneville) to replace their B-body Caprice/Impala. Needless to say, those plans never quite materialize as planned.

1984
In an effort to prove to consumers that the recall-plagued X-body platform was indeed debugged, Chevy rechristens its Citation line as Citation II. '84 was the final production year for Pontiac's Phoenix and Oldsmobile's Omega.

1985
Quiet year for Chevy in terms of model changes; except that it would be the last year for the Impala sedan... so we thought. FWD C-body (Buick Electra, Olds 98 & Cadillac DeVille/Fleetwood) roll out in early 1984. The only RWD C-body to survive into 1985 is the Cadillac old Fleetwood, which is renamed Fleetwood Brougham. The car would be renamed to just Brougham in 1987. The Fleetwood name would eventually return to the large RWD Caddy when the car is restyled for 1993.

1985 was also the final year of production of the last-remaining X-body cars (Chevy Citation II & Buick Skylark).

1985
In an futile effort to replace the RWD G-body mid-size coupes; Buick, Olds & Pontiac launch the smaller FWD N-body coupes (Somerset Regal/Calais/Grand Am). It's worth noting that the N-body cars were originally supposed to bear the same model names (Regal/Cutlass Supreme/Grand Prix) as their would-be RWD predessors but still-popular sales of the G-body coupled with falling gas prices caused GM give the N-bodies different names. Since the N-body was already desinted for production; GM had no choice but to launch it. The N-body effort was not lost however, but its mission would somewhat change a year later.

1986
Big changes for Buick, Olds and to some extent Cadillac. The FWD H-body replaces Buick's & Olds' B-body (LeSabre/Delta 88) coupes & sedans. The RWD B-body station wagons would continue. The E-body cars (Eldorado/Seville/Riviera/Tornado) are all replaced by cars that many critics called as overdone versions of the Olds Calais & Buick Somerset Regal.

1986
Realizing that the RWD G-body coupes weren't going to be discontinued... yet, coupled with a void created by the fore-mentioned discontinued X-body; GM decides to produce 4-door versions of the N-body (Buick transfers its Skylark nameplate from the dead X-body to the new N-body) and unofficially makes the N-body cars successors to the defunct X-body. Chevy, having no N-body of its own for '86 between the J-body Cavalier and the A-body Celebrity, has to wait almost a year for its own N-body car (Corsica/Baretta) to roll out.

1986 (These might be the so-called replacement cars you're thinking of)
In an effort to replace the aging RWD T-body CHEVETTE; Chevy tries 2 simultaneous initiatives. The first one simply slaps a Chevy Spectrum badge on an Isuzu Impulse; the other is a more pronounced and advertised joint venture w/Toyota and voila, the Toyota Corolla-based Chevy Nova is born. On the mini-compact end, Chevy also releases a badge-engineered Suzuki and calls it the Chevy Sprint.

1987
Final year for the RWD T-body Chevette and its Pontiac clone, the 1000.
FWD H-body Bonneville rolls out replacing both the RWD B-body Parisienne sedan and the RWD G-body Bonneville.

1988
Buick, Olsmobile & Cadillac all loose their J-body cars while the remaining Chevy Cavalier and Pontiac Sunbird receive an exterior restyling; the slow-selling hatchback J-body models all bite the dust. As a pseudo-replacement for the 1000, Pontiac launches the LeMans on a Korean-built platform (not sure from whom?)

1988
The W-body coupe, a larger-than-the-N-body FWD successor to the RWD G-body, rolls out for Buick, Pontiac, & Oldsmobile. Chevy doesn't receive its own W-body (Lumina) until 1990, when the 4-door W-body models roll out.

In essensce, I believe that you were thinking about either the FWD Nova and/or the Spectrum as replacements for the Cavalier when in reality, those cars actually replaced the much-older Chevette.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
777DadandJr
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:56 am

Hey Chris,
 bigthumbsup  Great job with the 80's GM history.

A couple of notes to add.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
slaps a Chevy Spectrum badge on an Isuzu Impulse

I believe that the Spectrum was a rebadged Isuzu I-Mark, not an Impulse.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
Pontiac launches the LeMans on a Korean-built platform (not sure from whom?)

I think the LeMans was a built by Deawoo.

Thanks for the info.

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
slider
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 28):
They do the bare minimum, and treat injured employees as they do the trash, something to get rid of. See it a lot.



Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 28):
These guys are hard core, and if you think they are not, you are wrong.

So, being "hardcore" in running a business is a bad thing?

Perhaps Toyota learned from the Big Three in their pitfalls of caving to unions, Ford himself escalating the wage levels of his employees as a way of promoting car sales and building an empire and they realize that taking care of employees has a place, but not without limits.

There is a happy medium. I can't speak personally to how a Toyota employee was treated with an OJI, but I bet it's at least in accordance with the law, which is still pretty liberal.

Toyota also has to shake its head at the fact that any unemployed autoworker has lifetime pay.

the whole system is screwed up. I applaud other manufacturers for changing things up and challenging the status quo. If it pisses off a few people in the process, that's probably a small price to pay for solvency, secure company fortunes, profitability and avoiding what the Big Three face in really permanent debt.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:19 am

Some good things in life seems to last just a few years.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 31):
There is a happy medium. I can't speak personally to how a Toyota employee was treated with an OJI, but I bet it's at least in accordance with the law, which is still pretty liberal.

Toyota is strong enough to treat their injured employees better than they do.

Quoting Slider (Reply 31):
There is a happy medium

I am sure there is, but GM Ford and Chrysler plants are at one end, and Toyota is at the other. Nothing in the middle at all. That is the point, you expect the minimum from a minimum wage employer when you are injured, but when you consider how much Toyota demands from its employees, I think the bare minimum does not cut it in return.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why Did Pontiac Cancel The Bonneville?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 30):
A couple of notes to add.

  
Thanks for the additions & corrections; I was going by memory on those listings. Although personally, I did not care too much for cars like the Spectrum/I-Mark or the Deawoo-based LeMans.

Speaking of Bonnevilles, here's a pictoral tribute to the C-body Bonnevilles that ran through 1976; yes, they were a lot larger back then.

http://www.geocities.com/pontiac7676/1976_Pontiac_Bonneville.jpg












[Edited 2006-06-02 23:33:21]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981

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