rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:01 am

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3258613,00.html

Following warnings by extremist Islamic group al-Muhajiroun, in which the group said that the red cross in the England flag symbolizes the 'blood thirsty crusaders' and the occupation of Muslims, some of the largest companies in England have ordered their workers not to wave the flags.

Any Brits have thoughts on this???
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Daleaholic
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:38 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Any Brits have thoughts on this???

Rubbish!
"Blood thirsty crusaders" Ok... Ummm when was the last time you saw a gang of knights in body armour, brandishing swords running after muslims?

These extremists are being pathetic!

Englishmen... Raise your flag!
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Following warnings by extremist Islamic group al-Muhajiroun, in which the group said that the red cross in the England flag symbolizes the 'blood thirsty crusaders' and the occupation of Muslims, some of the largest companies in England have ordered their workers not to wave the flags.

What nonsense. NTL and the DVLA haven't banned English flags because of threats from al-Muhajiroun. This is sensationalist nonsense, designed to provoke a response.

The paragraphs refering to The Sun's 'campaign' to bring back the cross of St George has nothing to do with the rest of the article.

NTL and the DVLA have banned the flag because they work in multicultural areas, which may be sensitive to the flag. As you might know, the flag has been used for many years by far-right political parties, and even now the sensitivity over it remains. This is merely a prudent steps for companies to take if they don't want to risk public relations problems. That, and they look pretty rubbish...not particularly business like.

It's not a big deal - the flag isn't even the flag of the country for crying out loud. England is not a country.

The entire article is written by a biased tabloid hack with an agenda to push, and I suspect that the poster of the article delights in posting yet another, article claiming to show how Muslims are 'oppresing' the Western world.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
England is not a country.

I have to take issue with you there 777236ER, England IS a country, as are Wales and Scotland.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:12 am

Proud to be English.

Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 4):
Proud to be English.

So why the American flag on your profile?
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 5):
So why the American flag on your profile?

It's where I live and have lived for 4 years. Too many people have gotten confused with my location when I've displayed a St. George's flag, so I leave it on the stars and stripes now.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 3):

I have to take issue with you there 777236ER, England IS a country, as are Wales and Scotland.

Sorry, no. The country you live in is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It has one currency, one armed forces, no boarder controls between the regions, centralised government for the most part, one Prime Minister, one monarch.

The Treaty of the Union in 1707 combined Scotland with Wales and England, and essentially made the Union, which is the country you live in.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are at best home nations, or 'constituent countries', but they are far from being countries in their own right. England doesn't have an army, currency, parliament, monarchy, Prime Minister or transport network, the UK does. The differences between the judicial systems of England and Scotland are based in quirks of the Treaty of the Union, and don't make the two regions separate nations.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
9VSPO
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 9:03 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Does it look like it?  Yeah sure

 
FlyKev
Crew
Posts: 1295
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:34 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:02 am

This is more PC nonsense, infact, its stuff like this which drives people further and further apart.
As a multicultural society, you should be allowed to fly whatever flag you like, be it an England one, an American one, or a Pakistani one. Flags arent a symbol of hate, but a symbol of pride.

Kev.
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7):
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are at best home nations, or 'constituent countries', but they are far from being countries in their own right. England doesn't have an army, currency, parliament, monarchy, Prime Minister or transport network, the UK does. The differences between the judicial systems of England and Scotland are based in quirks of the Treaty of the Union, and don't make the two regions separate nations.

Oh, Lord, not this again.  Yeah sure

There is no definitive answer as to what is, or what is not a country. It can be a state of mind as much as anything. By your standards Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were not countries for 50 years. Between the fall of Saddam and the creation of an interim government, Iraq was not a country etc etc etc. Go and tell them that.

If you mean a "State" in the legal sense (as in, "Head of State" for example), then that is true. "Country" or "nation"? No.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
the flag isn't even the flag of the country for crying out loud. England is not a country.



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7):
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are at best home nations, or 'constituent countries', but they are far from being countries in their own right.

It's the flag of the 'constituent country' that they're supporting in the World Cup. Flying the Union Flag would be inappropriate under the circumstances.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
NTL and the DVLA have banned the flag because they work in multicultural areas, which may be sensitive to the flag.

It's the flag of the (constituent) country they're living in. Seriously, if I moved to the States I wouldn't expect any sympathy if I complained that the Stars and Stripes reminded me of how they "took our colony from us". I'd expect to be told to go home if I didn't like it.
 
BigOrange
Posts: 2291
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:20 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7):
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are at best home nations, or 'constituent countries', but they are far from being countries in their own right. England doesn't have an army, currency, parliament, monarchy, Prime Minister or transport network, the UK does.

What BS.

England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland are countries which are members of the United Kingdom. Each has their own flag, different regiments of the army belong to different countries and as such, the Welsh guards could fight a war against the Lancashire Fusiliers if the Kingdom was ever broken up.

It's time the country stood up for itself and everyone became more patriotic. Wales, Scotland and Ireland all have their days to celebrate their saint, why shouldn't England celebrate their saint. The government should make it a national holiday.

There is no border control from Portugal right through Europe, and each is a separate country so that argument doesn't stand

[Edited 2006-06-05 19:44:16]
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:36 am

A similar conterversey has been around for a while in the USA. Some southern states (Georgia, Florida, S. Carolina, Alabama), once part of the Confederate States of America (CSA) during our Civil War era (1861-1865), have state flags that in part include elements of a popular battle flag of the CSA. Often these designs were reinstated during the 1950's by white citizens in objection to the rise of the civil rights movements by Black Americans. To most Black Americans, often the decendants of slaves in those parts of the USA, such flags are deeply offensive to them. As a result, some State government agencies use either alternative state flags or don't fly them at all as they do not want to offend Black citizens.
One can understand the offense of some Islamic persons who see the English flag as a symbol of the Crusades armies of England and elsewhere. Still, it is like a USA State flag, an official flag of England and the UK and it should be proudly shown. I am sure most English persons don't think of their flag as to be offensive to Islam.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):

There is no definitive answer as to what is, or what is not a country.

No, but arguably distinct boarder controls, currency, an armed forces, a Parliament/legislative body and monarchy are generally thought of as making up a country.

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
By your standards Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were not countries for 50 years.

That's right.

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
Go and tell them that.

Go tell people in the Basque regions that they're not an independent country, go tell the Tamil people they're not in an independent country, even go and tell some people in Cornwall they're not a country! Just because people want to their region to be independent doesn't make it so.

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
If you mean a "State" in the legal sense (as in, "Head of State" for example), then that is true. "Country" or "nation"? No.

A nation is based around a culture. The English culture isn't distinct enough from the Scottish culture to really be classes as separate nations. The multiculturalism in the UK pretty much means that the term 'nation' is useless, unless applied to the UK as a whole.

The term 'country' is made up of the state, and the nations. The state is clearly defined as the UK (the Parliament of the UK is the highest power in the land). I don't think England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can be classes as nations. They are historically, but there's no real basis for that in modern times.

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 12):
Each has their own flag, different regiments of the army belong to different countries and as such, the Welsh guards could fight a war against the Lancashire Fusiliers if the Kingdom was ever broken up.

They could, but politically and legally they're all controlled from London. Each county has a flag, that doesn't make them countries.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland each have a common currency, armed forces, police, parliament, Prime Minister, monarch etc.

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 12):
It's time the country stood up for itself and everyone became more patriotic. Wales, Scotland and Ireland all have their days to celebrate their saint, why shouldn't England celebrate their saint. The government should make it a national holiday.

Why can't people be patriotic about the UK? England has no real separate culture from the other constituent nations. The UK is clearly distinct from other countries. Celebrating England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is a bit like celebrating the times before the union, a throwback to the war and feuding that set them apart. The union exists, and isn't going anywhere, and the UK is stronger because of it. Can't we celebrate that?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
No, but arguably distinct boarder controls, currency, an armed forces, a Parliament/legislative body and monarchy are generally thought of as making up a country.

No, not necessarily. All of those things might make up a legal state, but that's not the same. The position of the nations of the UK is virtually unique in the world, where nations have deliberately joined together to form a greater state, yet retained their distinctiveness.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
A nation is based around a culture. The English culture isn't distinct enough from the Scottish culture to really be classes as separate nations. The multiculturalism in the UK pretty much means that the term 'nation' is useless, unless applied to the UK as a whole.

Actually, you've hit on the crux of the matter here. The English identity is indeed a rather hard one to define. Scotland, Wales and Ireland maintained the separateness from English power throughout the centuries, the English subsumed their nationality in a British one. It was part of an unspoken bargain with the rest of the British Isles. What it ultimately meant is that Scottishness, Welshness and Irishness (of whatever strain) became distinctive and separate to any notion of Britishness. The English on the other hand did not. What you are seeing right now in front of your eyes is a re-assertion of Englishness, somethig that has lain more or less dormant for several hundred years, for better or worse.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
Why can't people be patriotic about the UK? England has no real separate culture from the other constituent nations. The UK is clearly distinct from other countries. Celebrating England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is a bit like celebrating the times before the union, a throwback to the war and feuding that set them apart. The union exists, and isn't going anywhere, and the UK is stronger because of it. Can't we celebrate that?

Who said it had to be exclusive? I'll happily cheer a British team at the Olympics, but there's no rule that says it has to be one or the other. Saying it's a throwback is nonsensical, unless you have a circumstance where some lunatic extremist would be saying how much they genuinely (as opposed to the family bickering that goes on all the time) hated the others.

I'm English and British, and happy with both. The idea that anyone would have to choose one or the other is silly and divisive in the extreme, which I would imagine is not what you would wish to encourage.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
slider
Posts: 6805
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
A nation is based around a culture.

Borders, language and culture, to be more specific and coin the tagline of a certain radio host.


Fly that flag, Brits!
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 15):
I'll happily cheer a British team at the Olympics, but there's no rule that says it has to be one or the other



Quoting Banco (Reply 15):
I'm English and British, and happy with both.

You say this, but then you also (rightly) say:

Quoting Banco (Reply 15):
The English identity is indeed a rather hard one to define. Scotland, Wales and Ireland maintained the separateness from English power throughout the centuries, the English subsumed their nationality in a British one. It was part of an unspoken bargain with the rest of the British Isles.

If Englishness and Britishness are so interchangable, then both can't be defined separately. Although there's a general feeling that the English should celebrate more English things, the vast majority of people in England still think of themselves as Brits, and as British achievements are being associated with the entire union.

For example, Roald Dahl is seen by the English as being British, despite him being Welsh. There's no suggestion that he's anything other than 'ours'.

If the sense of separation between England, Scotland and Wales, then we'd all suffer. Each Brit would lose the culture linked the rest of the union. Is it really a good thing if the relationship between the home nations becomes like that of Spain and Portugal, or China and Taiwan, or France and Britain? That's why I think the sense of Britishness, not Englishness, should be enhanced.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:21 am

I'm Scottish, British, from the UK, Europe and now I'm Canadian....but not English!

Therefore to fly the English, St. Georges Cross would be incorrect.

However, I can't wait for the World Cup and of course I will be routing for England since neither Scotland nor Canada seem to be able to kick a ball these days.

Raise your flag and hold it high!!!
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Following warnings by extremist Islamic group al-Muhajiroun,

Yes this is what we can look forward to, I am treveling to London next week and will be sure to purchase one. Should go ahead and put a nice sticker on my cars to.


Lets give them a warning , if we get attacked we round up every muslim and ship them out. Let the proper muslim citezens bring some pressure on them maybe... Not really but it just pisses me off so bad ...
 banghead   banghead   banghead 


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marcus Fülber

You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
if we get attacked we round up every muslim and ship them out

It looks like the article has acomplished what it set out to do.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:00 am

RJpieces,

Don't you EVER get tired of reading incredibly biased news sources and then using them to fuel your paranoid fantasies? Ever?

First: the Sun's campaign is the usual "invent politically correct extremists and exaggerate their activities so you can set them up as straw men" tactic they have been at consistently recently (the same way they and other tabloids have invented stories about "Baa Baa Black Sheep" and "Hot Cross Buns" being banned so they can stir up stupid populism. Meanwhile, the Islamic group that claims the flag represents the crusades has almost nothing to do with this. And they themselves are some whacko fringe group, and do not represent mainstream Islam in the UK.

On the other hand, the reason some Muslims and other minorities have a visceral reaction against the cross of St. George is that in very recent memory it has been used by right-wing extremist groups and hooligans as a white pride symbol. Believe me, as a Jew you also would not like one of those people coming at you using the flag that way, and you might look differently upon it after that.

However, the England flag is much much older than that, and the least divisive solution is in fact what most people do: get on with it. They realize that the flag is old, has been misused as a symbol at times, but can be reclaimed for the moderate majority. Especially during international tournaments, this is the spirit in which most white English people fly their flag, and it is the spirit in which more and more visibly minority citizens also fly the same flag and even drape themselves and their cars and their houses etc. in it. I think this would increasingly be a non-issue if stupid tabloids didn't try continue to stir things up and make a mountain out of every molehill company that has banned the flag for one reason or another including that it might offend some of their clientele...

Your news article link conflates all these issues and filters them into a paragraph or two that completely distorts everything and once again allows you to believe that the Muslims are secretly running Europe and bending things to their will.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
A similar conterversy has been around for a while in the USA. Some southern states (Georgia, Florida, S. Carolina, Alabama), once part of the Confederate States of America (CSA) during our Civil War era (1861-1865), have state flags that in part include elements of a popular battle flag of the CSA

I don't think the analogy really holds up (though there are definitely many parallels) since the Confederate flag actually came into being as a separatist (and hence pro-slavery) icon, it carries more of this meaning inherently within itself than an older symbol that has been misused at times.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
It looks like the article has acomplished what it set out to do.

 checkmark 
Sad

[Edited 2006-06-05 21:06:53]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
It looks like the article has acomplished what it set out to do.

Yes I agree with that , it is not really the threat it is the lack of defiance to it. I of course react because it is a issue that is close to me. Are you suggesting that their intent was only retorical ?? Sorry to many bombs going off to think that.

Imagine what would happen if a Christian group in Saudi Arabia protested thier flag emblazened with "There is no god but God Muhammad is the Messenger of God" or whatever it says ..

Guess that would insensitve ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Sorry to many bombs going off to think that.

Four Muslims carried out the July bombings in the UK. There are about 1.6 million Muslims in the UK. If 50 Muslims were involved in total with the bombings, then 99.997% of Muslims in the UK were not involved in the bombings.

Is that really enough to call for the expulsion of all Muslims?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Imagine what would happen if a Christian group in Saudi Arabia protested thier flag emblazened with "There is no god but God Muhammad is the Messenger of God" or whatever it says ..

That has nothing to do with the UK, though. Saudi Arabia has a state religion, the UK doesn't.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
Is that really enough to call for the expulsion of all Muslims?

No of course not, can I just get a little radical myself ?? Big grin


But some of us think , that if more responsibility was put on the 99.9 % to help it may work. Sure their are 99.9% that did not take part in the bombings ,but I am sure their is a high percentage of them that would not denounce it strongly or may even outright agree with the bombers. Am I wrong ?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4159
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 24):
the UK doesn't.

Funny you should say that. There are 24 Church of England bishops and two archbishops in the House of Lords. One can argue that they are members of the Church of England episcopacy, but the House of Lords is the (unelected) upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

Robert
Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25):
Sure their are 99.9% that did not take part in the bombings ,but I am sure their is a high percentage of them that would not denounce it strongly or may even outright agree with the bombers

But what do you base that on?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
highpeaklad
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:19 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:36 am

The flag is the flag of St George. He was either Turkish or Palestinian, how many BNP supporters are pleased now?

Fly the flag (as BA used to say)

Chris
Don't try to keep up with the Joneses - bring them down to your level !
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
If Englishness and Britishness are so interchangable, then both can't be defined separately

I didn't say they were interchangeable, although there certainly used to be a view to that extent. In fact it is now that they are separated far more than they used to be. If you go back to the Victorian era, English and British were interchangeable terms for the Scots and Welsh, astonishing as that might seem today.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
Although there's a general feeling that the English should celebrate more English things, the vast majority of people in England still think of themselves as Brits, and as British achievements are being associated with the entire union.

But we're not disagreeing here, because I think that too. I don't see why you seem to believe that being English precludes being happy with being British too. When I'm thinking of the UK as a whole, it's as a Briton; just England, it's as an Englishman. In fact, the Scots and Welsh have been ahead of us on this for some time, being more than comfortable with the idea of the British identity and their own separate one.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
For example, Roald Dahl is seen by the English as being British, despite him being Welsh. There's no suggestion that he's anything other than 'ours'.

And this has always been the case too. When Kelly Holmes won in the Olympics, she won for Britain. When she won in the last but one Commonwealth Games, she won for England. Either I'm misunderstanding you (which is possible) or you seem to be getting wrapped up in something that isn't an issue. Take the ongoing bickering between Scots and English on here - we all have a go at each other, but God help anyone that tries to join in. Then you have all turning as British and firing back at them. A minor, unimportant example, but one that's indicative of the mindset of most British people, be they of whatever origin in the Kingdom.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
If the sense of separation between England, Scotland and Wales, then we'd all suffer. Each Brit would lose the culture linked the rest of the union. Is it really a good thing if the relationship between the home nations becomes like that of Spain and Portugal, or China and Taiwan, or France and Britain? That's why I think the sense of Britishness, not Englishness, should be enhanced.

But again, it isn't an either/or. The Scots and Welsh have been more than content with their identities as Scots and Welsh, and also as British for centuries. Why deny the English the same privilege? I've no desire for any kind of break up of the union, and to be honest I find it bizarre that the idea of an English identity would make you think anyone would. What it implies is that it's fine for the Scots and Welsh to be Scottish and Welsh as well as British, but the English? Oh no, they must be content with British alone. I can't believe that's what you're advocating, but it is effect what it means.

Britishness is what links us all together. But trying to make that exclusive isn't going to work, the constituent nations are too deeply ingrained.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
But what do you base that on?

Of course their is no official data on this , no one is going to do a article about the percentage of the Muslim population that agrees with AlQada.

One particularly chilling Frontline I watched dealt with this issue after the London Bombings. Frontline showed several Jihadi supportive bookstores , groups etc operating in London. The bookstore owner in particular commented along the lines that business was good for his Jihadi tapes videos etc. Discovery Times has its "Age of Terror" program that also interviwed people on the street in the UK who blatently suppoted Osama. I guess all this could be propaganda but doubt it.

I really think that if the choice came down to choose sides that a majority may not defy their idea of Islam. I hope I am wrong about this .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
As you might know, the flag has been used for many years by far-right political parties, and even now the sensitivity over it remains.

Same holds true for the Confederate Battle Flag and Navy Jack. As mentioned in Reply 13, several Southern states either currently have or have had the Confederate Battle Flag as part of their flag. Both Mississippi (Whose state flag has included the C.B.F. since 1894) and Georgia have held votes on new flags over the past few years (Georgia's vote only included what is now the current flag [which is based on the First Confederate National Flag] and an interim blue banner with the state seal and a ribbon with previous state flags.). Mississippi voters decided to keep their flag as it was by a 2 to 1 margin. South Carolina had an issue regarding the flying of the Confederate Navy Jack (Which is a rectangular version of the Confederate Battle Flag, which is a square, and is colloquially referred to as the "Rebel Flag") over the State Capitol. The NAACP demanded that they remove it from flying over the building, and started to boycott the state. Eventually, the state took the flag down from the building and moved it to a site on the grounds, which didn't fly right with the NAACP, and still have a boycott of S.C. (I won't go any further on this issue, as it could go down the path of being flame bait).

The Confederate Navy Jack was usurped by the KKK and other white power/neo-Nazi groups. The Sons of Confederate Veterans had protested the use of the flag by these groups, as these groups are being disrespectful of those who lost their lives fighting for the CSA in the Civil War. The SCV has even gone as far as to confront Klansmen and skinheads.

This issue still hasn't died down in Georgia, as the "Flaggers", a group that is made up of supporters of the 1956 flag, are still fighting to return the old flag. When the referendum was held in 2004 on the state flag (the current flag was chosen over the interim blue flag by a 3-1 margin), the Flaggers tried to get the 1956 flag put on the ballot and failed, and have launched a campaign to get the current governor defeated this November (they helped him oust Gov. Barnes in 2002, and thought he would get the old flag back). There are groups of these morons (I think they are morons because they're fighting a losing battle. Our Southern Heritage is still represented in the current flag since it is based on the First Confederate National Flag. The KKK and the Neo-Nazis ruined the Navy Jack and Battle Flag for us already so get over it.) that follow the Governor to events and wave the old flag.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 21):
Meanwhile, the Islamic group that claims the flag represents the crusades has almost nothing to do with this. And they themselves are some whacko fringe group, and do not represent mainstream Islam in the UK.
On the other hand, the reason some Muslims and other minorities have a visceral reaction against the cross of St. George is that in very recent memory it has been used by right-wing extremist groups and hooligans as a white pride symbol.

This is classic PC double standards bs. AFAIK, those "right-wing extremist groups and hooligans" are "are some whacko fringe group, and do not represent mainstream" society in the UK, are they not? Your point is, then? So why one hand you play down "islamist whackos" and at the same time make such a big deal out of bunch bald-headed thugh waving English flag.
Maybe I should move to Turkey or Pakistan and issue warnings and threats that since I don't like crescent on their respective flags they better not fly them. I wonder how far I'd get.  Yeah sure
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
One particularly chilling Frontline I watched dealt with this issue after the London Bombings. Frontline showed several Jihadi supportive bookstores , groups etc operating in London. The bookstore owner in particular commented along the lines that business was good for his Jihadi tapes videos etc. Discovery Times has its "Age of Terror" program that also interviwed people on the street in the UK who blatently suppoted Osama. I guess all this could be propaganda but doubt it.

That's just sensationalist tat. No doubt a TV company could go to the US and find people with the same views. To imply (as it appears that the programme did from what you say) that such views are widespread is ludicrous. There are a few groups (mainly from overseas) who advocate such a thing, and are in London because of a flawed asylum policy a few years back, but the overwhelming majority, more than that, the virtual unanimity of British Muslims had a reaction of utter horror to the London attacks. The whole point about the London bombings was the shock that it was our own people. We expected an attack from foreigners, not Britons, because race relations here were and are outstandingly good in comparison with just about any country you care to mention - including the United States.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
Oh, Lord, not this again.

I haven't even read the rest of this tired thread after these comments. Banco. You are spot on.

Englishmen, fly your flag. And the more I hear of this tiresome anti-English BS the more I am inclined to hope that your team go all the way and win the World Cup
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 32):
This is classic PC double standards bs. AFAIK, those "right-wing extremist groups and hooligans" are "are some whacko fringe group, and do not represent mainstream" society in the UK, are they not? Your point is, then? So why one hand you play down "islamist whackos" and at the same time make such a big deal out of bunch bald-headed thugh waving English flag. Maybe I should move to Turkey or Pakistan and issue warnings and threats that since I don't like crescent on their respective flags they better not fly them. I wonder how far I'd get.

What the hell are you talking about? Double standards? You think I'm advocating changing the England flag? Then you didn't read my post very well. I said I think the England flag should be (and is being) reclaimed from these right-wing hooligans (who are indeed a whacko group, although at times one that has captured the sympathy of too many people in the mainstream) and should be used freely. I said the Muslim group claiming the flag represents the crusades has almost nothing to do with the SUN campaign, nor anything to do with the reason some minority people are scared of the England flag. YOUR point?

My dad and I were walking recently and we saw an Indian store with a bunch of Swastikas around a Happy Diwali sign. He had a very visceral reaction against them. We're Jews...it is a sign with a knee-jerk and scary meaning to us. Do I understand his reaction? Yes. Do I think that the sign should be banned in an old Indian context because it has been abused horribly in the twentieth century by a totally different group? No. Similarly, I don't think the England flag should be banned, but I can understand some people's visceral reactions against it given their experiences.

In fact, most flags have been misused. I'd say the US flag is being sorely abused these days: in certain contexts I myself don't like seeing it. But that doesn't mean it should be changed. What does that serve?

[Edited 2006-06-05 22:51:54]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 33):
That's just sensationalist tat

Not sure about that , New York Times , Frontline are not exactly supportive of the war on terror. And are generally more secular than most outlets.

Quoting Banco (Reply 33):
We expected an attack from foreigners, not Britons, because race relations here were and are outstandingly good in comparison with just about any country you care to mention - including the United States

Really ? I sure here alot of berating comments about the Pakis's ,ragheads etc.from my co-workers over their. I do not care about that anyway my point was not about race , the point is religion. Suicide bombers do not say long live Pakistan before blowing up.. usually its done in the name of Islam.

Their is a difference between ignoring them and integrating them.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
TheSorcerer
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:35 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:56 am

Anyone ever noticed that RJpieces always posts stuff that makes muslims look bad?

Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
christeljs
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:08 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 5):
So why the American flag on your profile?

Some people choose to have the flag of their nationality whereas some choose from what location they are at the moment!
Christel A Photography
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13245
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Scotty (Reply 34):
And the more I hear of this tiresome anti-English BS the more I am inclined to hope that your team go all the way and win the World Cup

Is that actually allowed North of the "border"? Wow!

Anyone who thinks we're afraid to fly the Cross of St. George only needs to walk down the average English street as we approach the start of the World Cup. yes 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
Is that actually allowed North of the "border"?

Its probably a hanging offence.

Anyway, I haven't been "south" for a wee while but I hear there are a few flags flying. I am jealous - I wish we were in it. However, we have at least qualified for the UEFA Under 19 Championships to be held in Poland in July. England haven't.

And we won the Kirin Cup!

How many pints of Stella do I need to consume before I can do that Crouch thing properly??
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 29):
Either I'm misunderstanding you (which is possible) or you seem to be getting wrapped up in something that isn't an issue

I'm not wrapped up in it. This all started because Cosec59 took issue with me saying England isn't a country. It really isn't!

Quoting Banco (Reply 29):
What it implies is that it's fine for the Scots and Welsh to be Scottish and Welsh as well as British, but the English? Oh no, they must be content with British alone. I can't believe that's what you're advocating, but it is effect what it means.

I'm not implying that. But there's constant talk of the English having no identity. They're British, English, Northern/Southern (big differences there), they come from very different countries who sometimes have strong rivalries (Cornwall, Yorkshire/Lancashire). You also have the problem that England is the most multicultural of the nations, and given we generally have multiculturalism, not the integration seen in other EU nations, you then give people yet another identity and culture to belong to.

Is a 2nd/3rd generation guy of Pakistani descent British? English? Northern? Pakistani? A Muslim? A Yorkshireman? The point I'm making is that focusing on one of the vaguest of all those identities - the 'English' one - isn't the best approach, I don't think.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
I really think that if the choice came down to choose sides that a majority may not defy their idea of Islam.

I don't think this is true, but the perception of it being the case (and indeed, it may be true on a small-scale) comes back to the issue of identity. The UK system of multiculturalism - with immigrants maintaining their culture - works. All you have to do is look to France to see the problems associated with trying to make foreigners fit in, to an almost fasict extent. One problem with multiculturalism, however, is that immigrants tend to feel separate from native populations. When people feel disassociated from the people around them, it's easier to grow to hate them and be coerced (?) into attacking them.

This is why I think the sense of 'Britishness' should be emphasised. The cross of St George still has links to far-right parties. Whatever people say, it's always going to be associated with something slightly unsavoury. The close links with football (and the violence that was associated with it) only increases this feeling, I think. Is 'England' white?

Britain was originally a union of four very different cultures. The entire concept, and even the flag, is all about maintaining seperate cultures, but uniting them under flag, and one soverign nation. The concept can be used again, I think, to bring together all the different communities living in the UK.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8065
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):

Load of rubbish. I for one think these extremists should all be deported - sooner rather than later......

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
Anyone who thinks we're afraid to fly the Cross of St. George only needs to walk down the average English street as we approach the start of the World Cup.

Exactly - I'm not going to let a bunch of extremist wimps stop me doing that.


Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 42):
I for one think these extremists should all be deported

And if they're citizens...?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 41):
I'm not wrapped up in it. This all started because Cosec59 took issue with me saying England isn't a country. It really isn't!

No, it started when you said England football fans shouldn't be flying the English flag.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 41):
Is a 2nd/3rd generation guy of Pakistani descent British? English? Northern? Pakistani? A Muslim? A Yorkshireman? The point I'm making is that focusing on one of the vaguest of all those identities - the 'English' one - isn't the best approach, I don't think.

So the vast majority in England shouldn't identify themselves as English because not everyone in England is English? Maybe Scotland as a whole isn't as multicultural as England but Glasgow, for example, has a significant Asian population. Should Glaswegians cease to be Glaswegians because there's a small multicultural element? I don't think so. No-one's forcing anyone to be specifically English if they don't want to be.

And, incidentally, I've heard "English" Asians make the same disparaging remarks about Scotland that we're used to from some of the rest of you. Hardly a homogeneous "British" attitude.  Smile
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8065
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 43):
And if they're citizens...?

Then we simply use the law to jail them  Embarrassment

Remember that law we passed not long back? What was it, "Glorification of Terrorism"? Ah yes....  Yeah sure



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:43 am

I say you just wait a couple weeks till England fizzle out of the world cup, as they always do, at which point not flying the flag will be very much the norm  Smile

YOWza
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 46):
I say you just wait a couple weeks till England fizzle out of the world cup, as they always do

Which group are Canada in? Or maybe they're staying at home to train to become world champions at ice hockey  wink  If we do well what are the reasons you (and every other England detractor) will use?

I'll be flying my England flags with pride in Downtown Phoenix. And as for the thread subject, I'm pretty sure that no-one will not fly their flags for this reason.

BF
Fortune favours the brave
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 9):
This is more PC nonsense, infact, its stuff like this which drives people further and further apart.
As a multicultural society, you should be allowed to fly whatever flag you like, be it an England one, an American one, or a Pakistani one. Flags arent a symbol of hate, but a symbol of pride.

Well said Kev!

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 12):
England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland are countries which are members of the United Kingdom.

Hmmm, takes a yank to point out to the poms what they should have learnt in school, United Kingdom is made up of united countries, argue all you like...you'll still be wrong.
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: England Afraid To Fly Its Own Flag?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 48):
you'll still be wrong.

And you'll still be boring  biggrin 

BF
Fortune favours the brave

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], DNDTUF, EA CO AS, flyguy89, PacificBeach88, tommy1808 and 49 guests