aircraft
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Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:49 pm

Anetters,

Rate your faith in science on a scale of 1 to 10.

10: being the same faith you have in the sun coming up each day.

1: being that you win the lottery tomorrow.

Do you, or do you not believe what scientists have to say as a whole?

I'm hoping to get 30 replies. All I need is a number. Thanks  Smile
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:56 pm

Oh so you are doing a study...
Well if I think about it, I don't think I'll give more than a 2-3 at the highest. While we all rely on it heavily, we are doing things today that were scientifically impossible some time in the past. Science is important and will continue to improve but I don't think it will ever be perfect, its been wrong in the past, our understanding is still not absolute neither will it ever be.
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:09 pm

I don't have faith in science, I have quantifiable confidence.  Smile

I'll say an 8

BTW, if you are doing this for some kind of school project, you really need to have a random sample and probably a much, much larger sample size.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:10 pm

Short answer: 10

Humans are falible as we have recently discovered with a few scientific frauds as of late BUT other Scientests have proven them wrong so ultimately science doesn't lie. Am I happy about the fact Science doesn't answer EVERYTHING, no. But it answers everything we NEED to know and when it's done well, it's as absolute and irrefutable as a 747 lifting into the sky on a hot summer day.
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IAH777
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:34 pm

Hmm...9. I'd say 10, but they keep coming up with tripe like Restless Leg Syndrome and Irritable Kneecap Cancer. Unless, of course, those "scientists" are actually legions of marketing toads. Then, I'd say 10.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:49 pm

hmm I have more faith in the sun comming up tomorrow than winning a lottery Big grin . That was the standard I used. I am confused now, inclining towards no faith count me in at 8-9 or 2-3 (as mentioned above), whatever applies.
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):

That is completely wrong. There is no absolute truth in science. Science is based on experimentation; to make every possible observation of phenomena is impossible.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 6):
That is completely wrong. There is no absolute truth in science. Science is based on experimentation; to make every possible observation of phenomena is impossible.

You'd be surprised.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:55 pm

Surprised about what?
 
TedTAce
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:55 pm

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 6):
There is no absolute truth in science.

 redflag 

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 6):
Science is based on experimentation; to make every possible observation of phenomena is impossible.

Yes, and there are a LOT of things we are still observing. But I think science has proven as an absolute fact that you can get a 747 into the air.
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oli80
Posts: 647
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:06 pm

I believe in the laws of physics.
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):

You are providing an application of science, or you might say an engineered aspect of science, which is different from explaining it. Humans in the past could manipulate fire, but they didn't understand what it was. Humans knew in the past that apples when falling out of trees hit the ground, but they didn't understand why.

You take for granted that the 747 has flown according to Bernoulli, and will continue to fly tomorrow and the next day. Maybe there are millions upon millions of hours flown by aircraft. That is still in the universal scheme a small number of events anyway that we have observed

And no we don't know fundamentally why airplanes fly since we don't understand matter entirely. Take an oxygen atom; its protons are composed of quarks, put what makes these quarks: strings of energy? How does that correspond to the macro world?

[Edited 2006-06-08 09:17:05]
 
Kieron747
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:43 pm

I would rate my faith in science as a clear 10, but I would say that, I am a scientist.

Obviously as mentioned above, there is nor absolute truth in science, (is there in anything?) yet science makes the best interpretation of experimental data. If new data is found, the scientific hypothesis may have to be altered.

A good scientist is constantly trying to disprove his own theory, if he can't, and no one else reasonably can, then that theory holds for the time being.

Kieron747
Airliners.Net - The Jam Rag Of The Web.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 11):
You are providing an application of science, or you might say an engineered aspect of science, which is different from explaining it.

I think you missed:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
But it answers everything we NEED to know
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:33 pm

Isn't the whole point of science that it isn't dependent on faith?
 
TedTAce
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:02 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
Isn't the whole point of science that it isn't dependent on faith?

WTF???

Science is based on observations that are repeatedly proveable. Unless you want to get philosophical on the observations being made in the first place, there is no 'faith' to science.
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gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:13 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 15):
Science is based on observations that are repeatedly proveable. Unless you want to get philosophical on the observations being made in the first place, there is no 'faith' to science.

I think that's pretty much what I said...read again maybe?
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:39 pm

7.
Science is good,but I have seen Miracles happen when Medical science has given up.
Maybe one day it'll be a 10.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 15):

Science is based on observations that are repeatedly proveable

God, not again. A scientific theory CAN NEVER BE PROVEN! A theory can only be disproven. A theory can essentially be shown to be true, but you can never prove it.

In what way can you have 'faith' in science? 'Science' isn't some bizarre belief that requires faith. All it is is a methodology for explaining what goes on around us. There's bad science as well as good science. So having faith in science is a bit of a tautology.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3133
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:59 pm

I'm gunna go with a 9. Most scientific things are indeed nothing more than theories, but these days most honest theories end up working pretty damn well so they must have some truth. Example being an airplane... The theories involved with the laws of physics say if we shape a wing just right a plane will fly. So what happened? We shaped some wings just like the theories told us to and before long we have planes weighing thousands of pounds climbing to thousands of feet above the surface of the earth within minutes of taking off. It ain't perfect but we're obviously doing something right here.



CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
aerobalance
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:51 pm

10
I make my living off of science.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 8):
Surprised about what?

Surprised about what all can be observed.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:40 am

Can you observe strings of energy?
 
sean1234
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:42 am

TedTAce in your simple mind, no you likely won't have to worry about a plane falling out of the sky because of science. That should be enough for you.
 
YeahitsK
Posts: 492
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:53 am

8

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 20):
I make my living off of science

Me too, but Science certainly doesn't answer everything. The ultimate role of science may be to answer the most basic of questions, why is the sky blue, how did we get here. It should be able to explain the world around us, but some of the most simple questions are left unanswered. I therefore do not put complete faith in it.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
Am I happy about the fact Science doesn't answer EVERYTHING, no. But it answers everything we NEED to know and when it's done well, it's as absolute and irrefutable as a 747 lifting into the sky on a hot summer day.

I've got to disagree with this. Science shouldn't be spoken of as something static and final. Someone 100 years ago could say the same thing before the airplane was invented, that it has provided all the answers they need for their daily life. Further back, the world is flat according to Science, what else do we need to know? What we accept as scientific fact today should stand the test of time to be good Science, but a lot of it won't as new discoveries are made and theories are re-tested against the new evidence. That is the process of Science, and generally speaking we actually know so incredibly little about the world around us. If we can get a grasp and ultimate understanding of quantum physics the world will change in ways we can't fathom today.
Let's play some Pitch...
 
trvyyz
Posts: 1331
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:07 am

I will give a 10 to science.
Science is not magic.
It simply shows you what is possible and what is not and to what extent.
Don't expect it to answer everything.
It has it limitations and being able to realise that makes the difference.
In many of the day to day proven applications, science is close to perfection.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 24):
If we can get a grasp and ultimate understanding of quantum physics the world will change in ways we can't fathom today.

How so?
How is our society going to change from consumerisim to something else?

Maybe I'm once again being simple about it. But the bottom line is that we are consumers and will be for a VERY long time. Maye WHAT we will buy will be diferent. But we still have to do the dishes and Laundry.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 18):
A scientific theory CAN NEVER BE PROVEN!



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 18):
A theory can essentially be shown to be true, but you can never prove it.

Care to explain???  Wow!
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777236ER
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 26):
Care to explain??? Wow!

You can't show a theory to be universally true, in every situation. You can prove something mathematically, but you can't prove any scientific theory. All it takes is one false observation to mean the theory doesn't hold. Because you can't observe every single occurance, you can't prove a theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

[Edited 2006-06-08 20:38:57]
Your bone's got a little machine
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):

You can't show a theory to be universally true,



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory



Quote:
It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.
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777236ER
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:15 am

But humans have never observed the Earth throughout its history. Millions of years ago, an apple might not have fallen to earth. Whilst this goes against common sense, and theory, because we can't observe it, the theory of gravity cannot be proven, and the idea that 'gravity acts downwards' cannot be called a fact.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:17 am

I believe in science....But ultimately, gravity gets me down
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 29):
But humans have never observed the Earth throughout its history. Millions of years ago, an apple might not have fallen to earth. Whilst this goes against common sense, and theory, because we can't observe it, the theory of gravity cannot be proven, and the idea that 'gravity acts downwards' cannot be called a fact.

 redflag 
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777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:25 am

redflag

Uh, what?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
808TWA
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:54 am

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 31):
TedTAce

Then let us all take flight !
Love is in the air, so practice safe flying
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 22):
Can you observe strings of energy?

No but 50 years ago black holes weren't observable either. Now, they're known to be all around us.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 32):
redflag

Uh, what?

Your argument is about as logical as the bible.

Try disproving THIS: Gravitational force = (G * m1 * m2) / (d2)
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sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:32 am

Your logic is flawed. Because something once before could not be observed and now it can, does not mean other things today beyond human detection will some day be observable. Do I really have to tell you that?
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 2:52 pm

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:34 am

 rotfl 

I usually only come to this site for the humorous qualities, this thread hasn't let me down.
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:35 am

After many years in the natural sciences, I'd have to say 6....perhaps 7.

The worst thing you can do in the scientific world is to proclaim the you are 100% certain of anything.
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 35):

The Einstein Field Equations disprove it.

 rotfl 
TEdTAce abandon ship before it's too late.
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:42 am

Wait Newton's idea of gravity was an absolute truth, until Einstein. Einstein's idea of gravity is an absolute truth, until maybe Edward Witten (but that remains to be seen).
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 36):
Your logic is flawed. Because something once before could not be observed and now it can, does not mean other things today beyond human detection will some day be observable. Do I really have to tell you that?

They may observe something completely different than the running theory today, but your point that I was responding to was about observable phenomena, not theories.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 40):
Wait Newton's idea of gravity was an absolute truth, until Einstein. Einstein's idea of gravity is an absolute truth, until maybe Edward Witten (but that remains to be seen).

Either way you cut it, there is proof that the observations are valid. When you go getting fancy with advanced gravitation and other theories, you are proving variations on the theme. Without going all space/time BS you place two objects in a vaccuum and the equation holds true.
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DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 40):
Wait Newton's idea of gravity was an absolute truth, until Einstein. Einstein's idea of gravity is an absolute truth, until maybe Edward Witten (but that remains to be seen).

Einsteins idea of gravity isn't fundamentally different from Newton's idea of gravity, it's just a possible explanation of how 2 objects attract each other (which Newton didn't cover). Apart from that, everything is the same.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 43):
Einsteins idea of gravity isn't fundamentally different from Newton's idea of gravity, it's just a possible explanation of how 2 objects attract each other (which Newton didn't cover). Apart from that, everything is the same.

Are we 100% certain of this.....really?

Wouldn't the same effects be witnessed if empty space repelled matter rather than matter being attracted to itself.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2118
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:46 am

You actually asked 2 different questions:

Science is a 9.

Scientists only get a 3.

Do you understand the difference?

There are alot of scientists out there that don't have much in the common sense department. Many also are really not that bright in their chosen areas.

The few (proportionally) good scientists will make up for it so that science in it's totality marches onward.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 44):
Are we 100% certain of this.....really?

Wouldn't the same effects be witnessed if empty space repelled matter rather than matter being attracted to itself.

Are we on the same page?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:03 am

It's all Maya, an illusion.

You people don't exist except as an illusion in my brain. But you're very entertaining. Keep it up.  Smile
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 46):
Are we on the same page?

Of course.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
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RE: Your Faith In Science

Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 48):
Of course.

ok now I get what you're saying. Empty space doesn't repel matter because according to Einstein the plane of empty space is flat. If the plane of empty space was a hill according to Einstein, then yes it would repel matter, but since empty space, according to Einstein, is flat, and mass puts a crater in empty space, empty space cannot repel matter.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same

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