dtwclipper
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Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

"A decades-long effort to relax Michigan's motorcycle helmet law reached a new high water mark Wednesday as the Legislature approved and sent to Gov. Jennifer Granholm a measure to allow riders 21 and older to shed their headgear.

The victory, greeted with loud huzzahs by leather-clad bikers on their annual pilgrimage to the Capitol, appears almost certain to be temporary. Granholm is poised to veto the bill."

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006606080349

I used to think that it was a good law, that if people were not smart enough to use a helmet on their cycle on their own, the state should mandate it like it does with seatbelt use in Michigan.

Now, however, I've changed my mind. If these folks are so stupid, and think that it is better to go without, then I say let'em become organ donors.

Although Granholm will most likely veto the bill, I think they deserve to ride without helmets and face whatever comes there way.
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Tod
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:56 pm

While I have no sympathy for people too stupid to where a helmet while riding a motorcycle, government mandated organ donation is sick.

Tod
 
luv2fly
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:00 pm

Ohio allows it, myself I do not agree with it, and IF I rode a cycle I would buck the trend and protect my melon!
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RichardPrice
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:00 pm

If they are willing to take the risk, why shouldnt they be allowed to? If the medical and insurance profession has issues with people who want to, then they should charge more for insurance then.
 
Tod
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 3):
If they are willing to take the risk, why shouldnt they be allowed to? If the medical and insurance profession has issues with people who want to, then they should charge more for insurance then.

Harborview Hospital in Seattle and other places have studied the issue in depth.
The results have been mostly buried because they were not as expected.

Motorcyclists without helmets have less medical expenses after major accidents than ones with helmets because more of them die.

Motorcyclist are slightly more likely than automobile drivers to have medical insurance so the "social burden" of unpaid medical expenses is BS.

Mandating helmet use while driving cars would save more lives than mandating it for motorcycle riders.

I strongly oppose mandating helmet use for any reason. Only the non-wearer can be negatively impacted by the choice.

Tod
 
CO7e7
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
Ohio allows it

You have to wear a helmet for one full year after your get the endorsment.. after that year, it's optional...
Organ donation is also optional...

-Zaki
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:05 am

In Minnesota you have to wear a helmet when you are training, and anybody under 18 (rider or passenger). After that it is optional. You won't get me on a motorcycle without one, however.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:07 am

You are required to wear eye protection, however. Either in the form of glasses/goggles or a windshield.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:11 am

I often see motorcyclists riding round in just shorts and t-shirts... fair enough, if they want to loose all their skin if they fall off... thats their own fault, however expect a darwin award to be posted rather promtly...

Same goes for those who do not wear a helmet...
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dtwclipper
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 8):
often see motorcyclists riding round in just shorts and t-shirts...

This I understand even less. It just takes one slip up and your hitting gravel at 65 miles per hour.

Yuk!
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AC320
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:41 am

While its people's own personal choice what safety precautions they take, why they'd decide to not protect themselves just does not computer.

When I go out, at the very least its a full-faced helmet, with a riding jacket and pants....no need to assume more risk than is inherent to the choice of transportation.

That said I did choose to become an organ donor. I've taken all the precautions I can, so G-d forbid the unthinkable happens at least some good will come of it.
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cptkrell
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:19 am

Tod wrote (Rep 4): "I strongly oppose mandating helmit use for any reason."

So do I, just as I strongly oppose wearing (auto) seatbelts for any reason, and, wearing seatbelts in an airplane for any reason (especially the pilots - they know exactly what's going to happen at any time, right?), and, wearing an automatic ignition-kill on your wrist while captaining a boat. Hell, I don't believe in the requirement for a life vest for each boating passenger, either.

Tod, your right. There should be no safety laws at all.

Regards...jack
all best; jack
 
TedTAce
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 1):
While I have no sympathy for people too stupid to where a helmet while riding a motorcycle, government mandated organ donation is sick.

I think it's a fair trade. Plus it's obviously going to compel people who feel like you to wear a helmet.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
I would buck the trend and protect my melon!

Good call. The only scenario I could see myself sans helmet would be cruising @ Daytona during bike week.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 3):
they should charge more for insurance then.

That's what they do in Florida. If you are 'uninsured' you need a helmet. The Insurance required to 'not wear a helmet' covers about enough to get you into a hospital then burried.

Quoting Tod (Reply 4):
Mandating helmet use while driving cars would save more lives than mandating it for motorcycle riders.

I'd like to know where you picked this little gem up.

Quoting AC320 (Reply 10):

That said I did choose to become an organ donor.

Me too. I'm not going to need them when I'm dead; Why let them go to waste?
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Tod
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 11):
just as I strongly oppose wearing (auto) seatbelts for any reason

Another case of where failing to use the equipment only hurts yourself, no one else.

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 11):
wearing seatbelts in an airplane for any reason (especially the pilots

Completely different scenario.

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 11):
wearing an automatic ignition-kill on your wrist while captaining a boat

Falling out of a running boat can kill others. Completely irresponsible.

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 11):
Hell, I don't believe in the requirement for a life vest for each boating passenger

Once again, putting others as risk. Completely irresponsible.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 12):
Plus it's obviously going to compel people who feel like you to wear a helmet.

I've been riding and racing motorcyles for quite a while and would never ride without proper safety equipement and for what I do, in addition to a helmet it includes riding boots, knee pads, kidney belt, chest protection, elbow pads, goggles and gloves.

The point is whether I protect myself or not, I will be the only one harmed. Why should the government be involved?

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 12):
Quoting Tod (Reply 4):
Mandating helmet use while driving cars would save more lives than mandating it for motorcycle riders.

I'd like to know where you picked this little gem up.

Either Harborview, the CDC or one of the other studies, I'll have to dig.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 12):
Quoting AC320 (Reply 10):

That said I did choose to become an organ donor.

Me too. I'm not going to need them when I'm dead; Why let them go to waste?

Me too. Nothing wrong with that at all, but why should the govenment mandate that choice?

Happy trails,
Tod
 
TedTAce
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 13):
why should the govenment mandate that choice?

The same reasons that they should/shouldn't make us wear helmets in the first place.

I would guess it's a way of making the midway point for the argument on both sides. The reckless motorcyclists get to go sans helmet, and the people who want to save lives get organs to save other lives with.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 12):
I think it's a fair trade. Plus it's obviously going to compel people who feel like you to wear a helmet.

So in return for giving people a FREEDOM of choice, you think the STEALING of their organs should they come to any misadventure while exercising that FREEDOM is acceptable?

My body is my body, and noone is going to take my organs without my explicit sayso in writing, implied consent via acceptance of another law is not enough.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
My body is my body, and noone is going to take my organs without my explicit sayso in writing, implied consent via acceptance of another law is not enough.

Sorry, you are missing the point. I am a firm believer that riding a motorcycle without a helmet (same for driving without a seat-belt) is just setting you up for being an organ donor, not that anyone is going to steal your organs!

I guess the irony was lost about 14 posts ago.
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TedTAce
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
So in return for giving people a FREEDOM of choice, you think the STEALING of their organs should they come to any misadventure while exercising that FREEDOM is acceptable?

My body is my body, and noone is going to take my organs without my explicit sayso in writing, implied consent via acceptance of another law is not enough.

Wa Wa Wa... you want to live in a free society you have to make trades... you can CHOOSE to keep your organs (you selfish bastard) and wear a helmet, or CHOOSE not too and give up your rights to your organs.

If you want to go smear yourself al over some road in england without a helmet and keep your organs, by god please do it before the british law adopts the mentality of one of our states.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
Wa Wa Wa... you want to live in a free society you have to make trades... you can CHOOSE to keep your organs (you selfish bastard) and wear a helmet, or CHOOSE not too and give up your rights to your organs.

So much for a free society - thats not a trade, thats full scale bribery and theft in return for something that should have been free in the first place. The Government needs to stay the hell out of this sort of thing, its a private choice (both wearing a helmet and organ donation) that should be left up to the individual.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
If you want to go smear yourself al over some road in england without a helmet and keep your organs, by god please do it before the british law adopts the mentality of one of our states.

UK already mandates helmets for bike riders, and it currently does not mandate organ donation - there is a movement for mandation of donation unless you opt out but its not supported by the public.

Now the helmet situation is slightly different in the UK because we have public healthcare, and thus the State pays for our care if we have an accident, while in the US you have private healthcare through insurance - if you have to pay then why should you not have the choice?
 
Tod
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
you want to live in a free society you have to make trades

I believe Sam Adams put it well:

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"

Tod
 
lowrider
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:04 am

Although I am a firm believer in helmets, seatbelts and the like, I think it is wrong for the government to madate thier usage. That said, it would also not bother me if health insurance refused to pick up you medical expenses if it can be proven you were not wearing them. A person assumes some risk by getting in a car or on a motorcycle. If you do not take reasonable precautions to protect yourself, do not expect anyone else to take extrodinary measures to save you.

Michigan is not the first state to have this organ donor idea. Arizona also debated it last year. I can't recall the outcome. I would imagine it is only a matter of time before this gets challenged in court. After all, if a woman has a "right" to privacy over her own body and the "right" to determine what is done to anything in it, shouldn't motorcyclists and by extension, thier hiers, have similar rights over organs present since before birth?
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cptkrell
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:02 am

Tod; evidently you don't recognise sarcasm (my Rep#11).

Evidently you also don't recognise that there is detriment to many others from the results of an unprotected injured/killed motorcyclist.

I shall not babble more to the blathering.

Regards...jack
all best; jack
 
2H4
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:16 am




Quoting AC320 (Reply 10):
When I go out, at the very least its a full-faced helmet, with a riding jacket and pants

Likewise.

Quoting Tod (Reply 13):
Another case of where failing to use the equipment only hurts yourself, no one else.



Quoting Tod (Reply 13):
The point is whether I protect myself or not, I will be the only one harmed.

Tod, I assume you're speaking only of physical or bodily harm. Remember, though, that you can severely impact the lives of others in other ways if you choose to ride without a helmet.

For example, I think we can all agree that everyone makes mistakes.

Suppose, for a moment, you're driving along....in your car....and for whatever reason, you become distracted or become blinded by the sun, and hit a motorcyclist. Now, would you rather be responsible for an injury, or a death?

When I put my helmet on, I do so primarily for my own safety. To a lesser degree, however, I put it on for the sake of the driver who may make an honest mistake. Just as I would hate to be responsible for a death, I would hate for my own stupidity or laziness to put someone in that same position.

At the end of the day, helmet use is the socially responsible thing to do.

As if one should even need a reason above and beyond that of personal safety and preservation....  sarcastic 




2H4


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Tod
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 21):
Tod; evidently you don't recognise sarcasm (my Rep#11).

No worries, it was recognised.  Smile

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 22):
To a lesser degree, however, I put it on for the sake of the driver who may make an honest mistake

Interesting perspective.

A bit OT, but is it an honest mistake or is it gross negligence due to a lack of situational awareness? The motorcycle accident stats sadly show that the vast majority of automobile drivers that hit motorcyclists "never saw the guy".

happy trails,
Tod
 
2H4
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:19 pm




Quoting Tod (Reply 23):
but is it an honest mistake or is it gross negligence due to a lack of situational awareness?

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. For any number of reasons, a good, vigilant driver will occasionally experience reduced situational awareness. Whether it's the result of a child in the car, environmental factors, an insect of some kind in the car, a grain of sand blowing into the driver's eye, etc, there are plenty of things that can be expected to happen to even the most disciplined and vigilant drivers.

By the book, one could conclude that the driver in the above examples would be at fault for not wearing safety goggles to prevent sand from blowing into their eye, or for not thoroughly inspecting the interior for insects before driving, or for giving their child something that can be thrown. In the real world, however, these distractions cannot be eliminated altogether...only minimized and dealt with.

Bottom line? Bad things happen to even the best drivers, and often, aren't a result of negligence.

Quoting Tod (Reply 23):
The motorcycle accident stats sadly show that the vast majority of automobile drivers that hit motorcyclists "never saw the guy".

I'll be the first to admit that drivers, as a whole, are very, very stupid. That said, even the best drivers can become blinded by the sun, and the front/rear profile of a motorcycle is very small, visually. "Never seeing the guy" might very well be a direct result of irresponsibility behind the wheel the majority of the time, but again...bad things happen to even the best drivers, and it's not automatically a result of negligence. Honest, unavoidable mistakes happen.




2H4


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itsjustme
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting Tod (Reply 4):

Mandating helmet use while driving cars would save more lives than mandating it for motorcycle riders.

Care to provide some statistics to back this up? Or are you just stating an opinion?

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):

My body is my body, and noone is going to take my organs without my explicit sayso in writing, implied consent via acceptance of another law is not enough.

Yes, your body is your body but riding a motorcycle just like driving a car is a privilege, not a right. You can keep your body intact and if you don't want to abide by the rules that are in place that govern the operation of a car or motorcycle, then take the bus. Seems pretty simple to me.

My bike is my primary mode of transportation and I ride anywhere between 1000-1500 miles a month. I've been riding for 20+ years and (knock on wood) I've never gone down. I have, however taken several rocks and other road debris off my head that has been kicked up by other vehicles. Had I not been wearing a helmet, I would have, at the very least, lost control of my bike. It's also quite likely I would have gone down or possibly struck another vehicle or perhaps even a pedestrian. However, because I had a helmet on, the impact of whatever has struck my head has been minimized and I've been able to maintain control of my faculties. Point being, helmet use effects the safety of everyone on the road, not just the person operating the bike. Unfortunately, not everyone has the common sense to do what's best for all involved and it's those riders that make mandatory helmet laws necessary.
 
Tod
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 24):
Quoting Tod (Reply 23):
but is it an honest mistake or is it gross negligence due to a lack of situational awareness?

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. For any number of reasons, a good, vigilant driver will occasionally experience reduced situational awareness.

I agree that good drivers can and will occasionally make mistakes, but the question is what proportion is that versus just plain bad drivers?

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 25):
Quoting Tod (Reply 4):

Mandating helmet use while driving cars would save more lives than mandating it for motorcycle riders.

Care to provide some statistics to back this up? Or are you just stating an opinion?

There was a study done a few years ago. Unfortunately for this discussion I have not had time to did it up.

Just my opinion now: If proper seatbelts, with either four or five attach points were used instead of the silly three point belts, lots of lives would be saved.
Good personal choice = Yes
Any of the governments business = No

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 25):
I have, however taken several rocks and other road debris off my head that has been kicked up by other vehicles. Had I not been wearing a helmet, I would have, at the very least, lost control of my bike

I too have chips out of my helmet that I am glad are not out of my noggin.
Don't get me wrong, I do not advocate riding without a helmet. I merely question the appropriateness of criminalizing that behaviour. There are plenty of other types of dumb behaviour that are not crimes either. Should there be an expectation that all dumb behaviour is prohibited by law?

Tod
 
AC320
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RE: Helmet Laws And Organ Donors

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 26):
I too have chips out of my helmet that I am glad are not out of my noggin.

I've had my bike for a mere three weeks now. Considering the around of rocks, debris, insects, and even a piece of sharp metal that have bounced off my helmet, the logic of how anyone could ride without proper head/eye protections escapes me.

Considering the safety and operational ability of roads is the government's business I have no problem with mandatory laws. Why should they close a lane and disrupt for a while to scrape your brains off the pavement?
fuddle duddle

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