luv2fly
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Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:33 pm

cnn.com is reporting it on the front page with a story to follow.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4160
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:39 pm

Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:39 pm

You can cut the irony with a knife
 
tootallsd
Posts: 458
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:40 pm

Yeah on BBC World here too.

I'm sure there will be some real pearls of wisdom dropped in the tv lights in the coming 5 hours. Anyone still got that Mission Accomplished banner?
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:42 pm

Few people in the world will find out about it anways this year...  Smile
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Klaus
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:46 pm

He should just stay there and "help out"...!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:49 pm

Watched AF1 land outside Baghdad on CNN. They need to upgrade the AF 742 to 744 or-8, nes pas?

Micke//SWE  Wink
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:51 pm

And? So?

That means Cheney is in charge here. Now I'm really nervous.  Big grin
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6059
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:56 pm

Oh well, at least he won't be serving plastic turkey to the troops this time around...
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Thread starter):
cnn.com is reporting it on the front page with a story to follow.

I heard about this while I was in the car earlier this morning, via XM Satellite Radio.

All the best to the President on his unannounced trip to Iraq.

I have to say that I suspected something was up about an hour and a half ago when I saw footage of the President walking in the rain to Marine One, unaccompanied and without an umbrella. It seemed very unusual to me. This was before his trip was announced.

By the way, reports say that Air Force One made a mad dash to Iraq about eleven or twelve hours ago. Earlier missions by U.S. dignitaries have seen them board unmarked or ordinary military aircraft to Iraq.

[Edited 2006-06-13 16:01:38]
What's fair is fair.
 
KROC
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:05 pm

Any minute now, a handful of users will come in here and start whining about how dangerous a move this is for Bush yada yada yada. Too bad he didn't take off from a Carrier to get to Iraq.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting KROC (Reply 10):
Any minute now, a handful of users will come in here and start whining about how dangerous a move this is for Bush yada yada yada. Too bad he didn't take off from a Carrier to get to Iraq.

It's true that you can't please everyone, and there are some people (e.g., Bush-haters) in the world who will never be pleased until the end of the President's term -- at the earliest.

I often wish Democrats would criticize their own who go much too far in criticizing the President.

[Edited 2006-06-13 16:07:55]
What's fair is fair.
 
texdravid
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:14 pm

Bush indeed did do the Andrews-Iraq flight overnight and landed about 4pm Iraq time Tuesday.

However, in a sign of confidence (or maybe texas bravado), Bush took a helicopter ride from the airport to the "green" zone. Not exactly a safe ride, given the security situation in Iraq.

Good show, George. On the way back, be sure to celebrate Karl Rove's non-indictment!
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 6):
They need to upgrade the AF 742 to 744 or-8, nes pas?

The two 747s that are referred to as "Air Force One" were speced out when the 747-200 was in production, but since they took about 5 years to build, they are basically 747-400s but without the -400 stretch because the interior was designed for a -200, and they started with -200s off the line.

They have the glass cockpit and most other -400 upgrades. Also, they have very few hours on them and will be like new for a couple decades. With an average of 70 passengers, the larger -400 was not really needed anyway.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:28 pm

Check out the details of the plans for how to get him out in secret...Very, very, very interesting report here!
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm

[Edited 2006-06-13 16:33:30]
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
He should just stay there and "help out"...!

 checkmark 

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 6):
AF 742 to 744 or-8, nes pas?

NO

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
All the best to the President on his unannounced trip to Iraq.

Yeah, good Luck George.. don't set off any IEDs!!

Quoting KROC (Reply 10):
Too bad he didn't take off from a Carrier to get to Iraq.

Oh what so we'd have to look at YET ANOTHER exagerated cod piece???  Yeah sure

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 12):
However, in a sign of confidence (or maybe texas bravado), Bush took a helicopter ride from the airport to the "green" zone. Not exactly a safe ride, given the security situation in Iraq.

I'm with you on this one... he should have taken one of those un-armored humvees that there appear to be so many of..

George, I hope you find Nirvana In Iraq...permanently.
This space intentionally left blank
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
That means Cheney is in charge here.
No he's not lol. The 25th Amendment doesn't kick in just because he's out of the country. The VP continues his quest for a marksmanship badge and a passing score on the moving target range at Quantico I believe. ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??

And I think he is helping out just by being there. If here were to take a trip around Baghdad or fly out to one of outlying cities for dinner with the troops that would be an even bigger plus but I'm sure the secret service has vetoed that idea as totally out of the question. But I say bravo for going there. And considering getting al-Zarqawi was a mission, yes they could hang the "mission accomplished" banner again. Just like they were right to do so after they ran Hussien out of power which was the first mission of the war.

edited because i'm sleepy and left half the post out!

[Edited 2006-06-13 16:45:17]
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 16):

No he's not lol. The 25th Amendment doesn't kick in just because he's out of the country.

Oh that's right, that only happened with the Regan White house.
This space intentionally left blank
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 16):
The 25th Amendment doesn't kick in just because he's out of the country.

That's correct. The President remains in charge wherever he is in the world. So much so, in fact, I believe that he continues to travel with "The Football" regardless of where he is.^1

"The Football" is the media's nickname for the attache' case that contains the nuclear launch codes for the United States. It is carried by a Presidential aide who accompanies the President during his travels.

The President has full capability and authority to execute all of his duties regardless of his physical position on the planet.

It's for these and other reasons that Air Force One is sometimes called "The Flying White House".
_____________________________
Edit:

1. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing.../2005-05-05-nuclear-football_x.htm

[Edited 2006-06-13 16:55:35]
What's fair is fair.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
Regan White house.

When did Don Regan get elected? Did I miss something?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
WestWing
Posts: 1133
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:01 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:40 am

While the press pool were told about the plans 24 hrs before departure, most of the cabinet was kept in the dark. So the White House trusts members of the press more than their Departmental Secretaries and the Attorney General? That's new.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
I have to say that I suspected something was up about an hour and a half ago when I saw footage of the President walking in the rain to Marine One, unaccompanied and without an umbrella. It seemed very unusual to me. This was before his trip was announced.

That was him leaving the White House for Camp David. When he left for Iraq, he literally ducked out of a meeting and left Camp David without telling many of his cabinet members.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 20):
While the press pool were told about the plans 24 hrs before departure

The cabinet members are mature enough to understand security concerns. People in the press, like David Gregory, are not. They would have cried like babies if not informed in advance.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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ManuCH
Crew
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:54 am

There was another thread a few hours ago that described planning of a president's trip in great detail. I didn't read it and now I can't find it anymore. Was it moved somewhere? Maybe I'm just blind  Smile or was it deleted?

Thanks
-Manuel
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:18 am

We now know how the President arrived in Iraq. Here is how I think the President might return home.

Note: In the following I've used an extremely simple, quickly devised code to make it more interesting. Once the method of return has been determined, I will decrypt the message.

Quote:
Falsely claiming past greatness, advertisements placed in unison but without prior approval state loudly, "Marking fifteen glorious, wonderful, fabled years making artistic handicrafts, Hamilton Northern understands brilliant antediluvian art."

The professor expostulated, "A query over ornaments clearly lacks edification."


[Edited 2006-06-13 19:32:09]
What's fair is fair.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:24 am

Where does AF1 stop to refuel on these long flights? I thought they only did inflight refueling in emergencies...

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 23):
There was another thread a few hours ago that described planning of a president's trip in great detail. I didn't read it and now I can't find it anymore. Was it moved somewhere? Maybe I'm just blind or was it deleted?

It was deleted because I had also posted it in Reply 14 above.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 12):
However, in a sign of confidence (or maybe texas bravado), Bush took a helicopter ride from the airport to the "green" zone. Not exactly a safe ride, given the security situation in Iraq.

Good show, George.

Quite the opposite, in fact. It would have been much more risky (bordering on the insane) to take the infamous road from the airport to the "green zone" to get his photo op with the new iraqi government.

The chopper was the quickest, easiest and safest way to go. And taking the road would have mandated extensive preparations and deployments which would have blown his cover for the surprise trip, thus significantly increasing the risk again.

I'm not saying he should have taken the road - just that there was no realistic alternative to taking the helicopter instead.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
The chopper was the quickest, easiest and safest way to go. And taking the road would have mandated extensive preparations and deployments which would have blown his cover for the surprise trip, thus significantly increasing the risk again.

It's interesting, isn't it, though, that his visit coincides with the deployment of 70,000 coalition and Iraqi forces throughout affected areas in order to extirpate and suppress insurgent activity.
What's fair is fair.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:01 am

What bird is it now ? I mean, to be eaten by the president .............
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):
What bird is it now ? I mean, to be eaten by the president .............

 Confused
What's fair is fair.
 
User avatar
ManuCH
Crew
Posts: 2679
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 25):
It was deleted because I had also posted it in Reply 14 above.

Thank you. Very interesting to read...

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 25):
Where does AF1 stop to refuel on these long flights? I thought they only did inflight refueling in emergencies...

According to this article, AF1 has a range of 6800nm, and Washington-Baghdad has a great circle distance of 5405nm. Couldn't this be done without refueling?

-Manuel
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12424
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:12 am

This is a bigtime political show by Bush, guaranteed to get lots of press coverage for the day. Mainly, it is to make an important political point to the Iraqi people. By his appearance, Bush is endorsing a political leadership there that we want, and hopefully will be recognized by the citizens of Iraq and eventually take care of it, crushing the insurgancy or finding ways to turn it off politically. Then we can get our troops out of there. I do wonder about the risks of this stunt however. I also don't like that the PM had to meet at the USA's headquarters/embassy, to me that is making them bend to the USA and kiss our ass. Not a politically good thing.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:19 am

News alert:

Fox News Channel reports that the President left Iraq at 1:50 p.m. Eastern.
What's fair is fair.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
important political point

if whatever positive results from this visit it was worth to be done.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
Mainly, it is to make an important political point to the Iraqi people.

From all appearances the iraqi people couldn't care less. Much more importantly, it is an attempt to turn around the american political situation and more specifically the free-falling approval ratings.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
By his appearance, Bush is endorsing a political leadership there that we want, and hopefully will be recognized by the citizens of Iraq and eventually take care of it, crushing the insurgancy or finding ways to turn it off politically.

The iraqis already know that the US is in this way over their heads with no way to go; And it reinforces the perception that the government is at the mercy of and under control of the USA.

Not a good thing. For the benefit of the iraqi government it would have been better if Bush had stayed at home.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
I also don't like that the PM had to meet at the USA's headquarters/embassy, to me that is making them bend to the USA and kiss our ass. Not a politically good thing.

Exactly!
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
The iraqis already know that the US is in this way over their heads with no way to go; And it reinforces the perception that the government is at the mercy of and under control of the USA.

If the U.S. actually were "way over" its heads, as you put it, then we'd have rioting in the streets here in Washington, D.C.

As it stands, by the cold, cruel calculus of casualties, American troops have not been killed or injured to the extent that occurred in Vietnam, and even in Vietnam, it took decades before American public opinion turned the tide. At this point, while it may be tragic to contemplate, the number of U.S. deaths in action in Iraq (at approximately 2,500) stands at less than 1/20th, or less than 5%, of the total number of U.S. military fatalities in Vietnam (at approximately 57,000).

At the equivalent stage in Vietnam or even later, the country was placid and confident, as regards American involvement in Southeast Asia, in the leadership of JFK. (JFK's biggest problems in this regard were in connection with Russia and Cuba, not Vietnam.)

[Edited 2006-06-13 21:05:30]
What's fair is fair.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
I also don't like that the PM had to meet at the USA's headquarters/embassy

Maybe those were the best facilites available? Seeing that Iraq has not had thier government in place long, how do we even know what facilites they have set up for the security required by the Secret Service?

Bush doesnt have much say in his own security, despite what many people think. The last President that did got shot in the head, remember?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
If the U.S. actually were "way over" its heads, as you put it, then we'd have rioting in the streets here in Washington, D.C.

Actually, for that question it is next to irrelevant how the american population feels.

• The USA are on the defensive in Iraq, effectively unable to act freely.

• Neither the open nor the apparent covert objectives are anywhere near being achieved...

• ...nor is there a plausible perspective of that ever happening in the future.

• Timing, speed or even direction of events is largely dictated by others, not by the US occupation, although that was obviously the plan.

• Massive "collateral" damage has been inflicted which has grown beyond the US capabilities to repair again on their own.

• Repeatedly stating how irrelevant such damage to others was considered to be has destroyed trust which will be difficult, costly and slow to regain.

• Political capital, credibility and influence have been lost - no, actually: have been discarded - on a global scale to an extent which has begun to develop its own dynamics to the detriment of US interests.

So no, the blissfull ignorance of at least some americans ("most" would apparently no longer be applicable here) about that rather bleak state of affairs is pretty much irrelevant to the question at hand:

Do the USA have the situation under control?

And the answer could not be more clear and obvious at this point: No, they do not.

Whenever your best chances in a situation would lie in an "act of god", you are in it way over your head! Sad
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 31):
This is a bigtime political show

By a powerful politician, no doubt. Shocking.





-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 38):
By a powerful politician, no doubt. Shocking.

News flash we are talking about Bush after all. Powerful, please!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:22 am

Typical A.net "A vs B" polarization with only a few rational comments.

If Pres. Bush had not made a trip, people would ask why he doesn't care. If he does makes a trip, the other side preaches grandstanding. Geeze...jack
all best; jack
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 39):
News flash we are talking about Bush after all. Powerful, please!

We are talking about President Bush, and yes, he is a powerful man. Presidents of this country, lame duck or not, are still powerful.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 14):
Check out the details of the plans for how to get him out in secret...

There goes that secret.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:42 pm

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):
We are talking about President Bush, and yes, he is a powerful man. Presidents of this country, lame duck or not, are still powerful.

Very true. He is destroying two countries simultaneously. To accomplish that does, indeed, take a powerful person.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:21 pm

Since it has now been determined how the President left Iraq, I will decrypt the message I posted earlier, as follows:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 24):
Falsely claiming past greatness, advertisements placed in unison but without prior approval state loudly, "Marking fifteen glorious, wonderful, fabled years making artistic handicrafts, Hamilton Northern understands brilliant antediluvian art."

The professor expostulated, "A query over ornaments clearly lacks edification."

Here is how to decipher the above using an arbitrary method chosen for this purpose:

1. In this case, no text outside of the quotation marks constitutes any part of the message.

2. Punctuation marks other than for the purpose as stated above are disregarded.

3. A key consisting of a formula producing a number would be offered to decrypt the message. In this case, the key would refer to the position of letters within each word within the quotes. (The key in a real cryptological effort could be provided in any number of ways and either prior or after the encrypted message is transmitted.)

4. The operative text is to be read backward.

Applying the above would produce the following:

Quote:
markinG fifteeN glorIous Wonderful fableD yEars maKing aRtistic handicrAfts haMilton Northern Understands bRilliant antediluviAn arT A Query Over ornamenTs clearlY Lacks ediFication

...where the capitalized letters form the text of the message.

As I said, the method devised here is extremely simple and would probably be broken in less than a second using advanced methods. Nevertheless, for purposes of this Board, I will explicitly offer that the message states,

FLY TO QATAR UNMARKED WING

In other words, the President might have flown to our base in Qatar in an unmarked aircraft, and taken Air Force One home from there.

As it turned out, on the return trip, Air Force One (not an unmarked aircraft) flew directly from Iraq with the President and the media aboard and landed elsewhere in the Middle East to refuel. The landing for refueling was necessitated because Air Force One had been loaded with minimum fuel in order to permit the maximum possible rate of ascent. To avoid detection, Air Force One was completely blacked out (aircraft lights were extinguished, shades were drawn, all light- or signal-emitting devices were required to be turned off) as it achieved altitude. (Source: Live report from correspondent John King, CNN, about twenty-five minutes ago.)

[Edited 2006-06-14 15:46:27]
What's fair is fair.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:30 pm

Klaus, thank you for your comprehensive response. Here is my reply.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
Actually, for that question it is next to irrelevant how the american population feels.

I disagree with that contention, since in this kind of war, it is the belief of the electorate that determines whether the United States must withdraw its military forces.

Quote:
• The USA are on the defensive in Iraq, effectively unable to act freely.

This is true only to a certain extent. The United States has voluntarily allowed and in fact encouraged Iraqification for policy purposes. It certainly is not fundamentally constrained in its military movements, since there is no opposing armor or forces of any kind sufficient to prevent its forces from executing large operations such as those that occurred in Fallujah.

Quote:
• Neither the open nor the apparent covert objectives are anywhere near being achieved...

This is true only if one disregards the existence of a permanent Iraqi government and approximately 120,000 newly formed Iraqi troops and police forces, and the assassination of the Al Qaeda leader in Iraq.

Quote:
• ...nor is there a plausible perspective of that ever happening in the future.

Please see above.

Quote:
• Timing, speed or even direction of events is largely dictated by others, not by the US occupation, although that was obviously the plan.

Timing is dictated by goals, and many of those goals are being achieved over time.

Quote:
• Massive "collateral" damage has been inflicted which has grown beyond the US capabilities to repair again on their own.

Such as?

Quote:
• Repeatedly stating how irrelevant such damage to others was considered to be has destroyed trust which will be difficult, costly and slow to regain.

Please cite any official statement supporting your contention that damage to others is considered "irrelevant".

Quote:
• Political capital, credibility and influence have been lost - no, actually: have been discarded - on a global scale to an extent which has begun to develop its own dynamics to the detriment of US interests.

True.

Quote:
So no, the blissfull ignorance of at least some americans ("most" would apparently no longer be applicable here) about that rather bleak state of affairs is pretty much irrelevant to the question at hand:

Do the USA have the situation under control?

And the answer could not be more clear and obvious at this point: No, they do not.

With respect, I don't think your conclusion would follow given that so many of the predicates, as I have shown, may be questioned.

Quote:
Whenever your best chances in a situation would lie in an "act of god", you are in it way over your head!

I don't think that the U.S. is relying on an act of God in Iraq, unless I misunderstand your meaning.

Thank you again, in any event, for your kind response.
What's fair is fair.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Bush In Iraq!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 44):
As it turned out, on the return trip, Air Force One (not an unmarked aircraft) flew directly from Iraq with the President and the media aboard and landed elsewhere in the Middle East to refuel. The landing for refueling was necessitated because Air Force One had been loaded with minimum fuel in order to permit the maximum possible rate of ascent.

I was under the impression that AF1 was equipped to aerial refuel. Am I wrong about that? Perhaps he wanted to meet with another leader in the middle east somewhere?

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 43):
Very true. He is destroying two countries simultaneously.

Yep, the women in Afghanistan probably miss those burkas on cold winter nights, and how many Iraqi women have turned to prostitution since they are no longer raped?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 46):
I was under the impression that AF1 was equipped to aerial refuel. Am I wrong about that? Perhaps he wanted to meet with another leader in the middle east somewhere?

The CNN report in question as a whole lasted about five minutes, and I haven't heard or read anything about the details of the return trip since the report first aired. I would have to verify that it wasn't aerially refueled.

Thank you for bringing up this question.
What's fair is fair.
 
malmoaviation
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:23 am

It's good that the Iraqi spotters get some BIG aircraft at their home airport  Smile No seriously, I don't know to much about the Iraqi war, only thing I hope is that they will experience a democratic, free and joyfully life soon.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Bush In Iraq!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:35 am

I have read some reports about this visit. If positive, it will help the Republicans to persevere and maintain their majority in the US-congress. I would like to see a change there, but confronted with the choice, I definitely HOPE for the positive, whatever the impact on US domestic politics may be !

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