IFEMaster
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Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:09 am

So does anyone else think that the standard of refereeing at the World Cup has been particularly poor so far? I just finished watching Korea vs. Togo, and Graham Poll gave the best display of impartial, fair, and by-the-book refereeing yet. In all other games so far (and I've seen them all), there have been some serious questions hanging over the validity of some goals and general direction of decision that could change games:

At least one of Germany's and one of Costa Rica's goals were offside.

Both of Ecuador's goals were questionable. The second one was definitely offside.

The decisions against Peter Crouch against Paraguay were totally ridiculous.

Trinidad & Tobago's sending off was unfair, especially as Freddie Ljungberg had been laying down some atrocious tackles and got away with them.

The lead-up to Argentina's first goal involved a hand ball by an Ivory Coast player. You could argue that the ref played an advantage, but when he does that, he must indicate it by holding out both arms. It looked to me like he asw it and just totally ignored it.

Japan's goal against Australia should not have stood as the Soccerroo keeper was impeded deliberately.

These are just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head. When will FIFA get their referee selections right???
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
So does anyone else think that the standard of refereeing at the World Cup has been particularly poor so far?

I've just been having the same conversation elsewhere. There seems to be a lot of guesswork and the referees are being conned too easily. It'll be interesting to see how they handle any needle matches.
 
yooyoo
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
At least one of Germany's

Which one? If it was the short cross....you're wrong, there was a defending player barely out of screen shot keeping all players on side.  smile 

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
and one of Costa Rica's goals were offside

The second goal? I have not seen the replay, but i think he WAS off !!

I have not seen ALL the games so i can't comment on them. But i do know from experience, refereeing a game at that speed and high caliber is difficult at best. The offside calls / non calls are very tough. Needing a replay to review 2 or 3 times and squinting ant the tv is a sure sign it was a tough call.

The games that i have seen, the officiating has been better than good.  Wink
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:55 am

And why was Magnin booked? He hardly touched Henry.

Quoting YooYoo (Reply 2):
But i do know from experience, refereeing a game at that speed and high caliber is difficult at best. The offside calls / non calls are very tough.

Offside is tough, I'll grant you, and I think they get those right most of the time but there have been far more non-events penalised than I'm used to seeing and some blatant fouls that have gone unpunished, e.g. the "foul" on Schwarzer for Nakamura's goal. If goalkeepers are "unfairly" protected by referees I don't think they can suddenly, in the middle of a game, decide not to give that protection. Lack of consistency - how often have we heard that?

I just get the impression that some referees are jusy assuming that something must have happened, but they're not sure what, and are making a decision for the sake of it.
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
The decisions against Peter Crouch against Paraguay were totally ridiculous.

Let's remember, we don't know what Crouch said to the ref.

Dominic
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aviationmaster
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:43 am

The refereeing has been much much better than what we saw four years ago. Just ask Italy  Silly

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):

Trinidad & Tobago's sending off was unfair, especially as Freddie Ljungberg had been laying down some atrocious tackles and got away with them.



Quoting David L (Reply 3):
And why was Magnin booked? He hardly touched Henry.

It's always been like this. The refs are normally much more tolerant when it comes to the famous players.  Wink

Magnin was booked because it was Henry he "touched". Had it been the other way around, there would not have been a card. Probably Magnin also shouted something nice at the referee.  Silly
 
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 5):
The refs are normally much more tolerant when it comes to the famous players.

I think you're right. I also think that referees are leniant towards the home crowd. Thinking back to France...Portugal...Korea...they had some very luck decisions go in their favour. Sol Campbell's "offside" goal springs to mind.
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azza40
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:01 am

Can i add something else please? Have over-head kicks been banned? I have already seen 3 over-head kicks being given a free kick for dangerous play! I think its a joke!

Aaron  sly 
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IFEMaster
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Azza40 (Reply 7):
Can i add something else please? Have over-head kicks been banned? I have already seen 3 over-head kicks being given a free kick for dangerous play! I think its a joke!

It depends how close it is to other players. there's no set distance, but if the referee deems that the boot comes close to another player's head, then it's a high-studs call and a free kick is awarded. On the other hand, if there are no players within several feet, and there is no danger of kicking someone else in the face, then the maneouvre is allowed.

But I agree with you - a couple of the bicycle kicks that I've seen ruled out have been perfectly fine.
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bill142
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
Japan's goal against Australia should not have stood as the Soccerroo keeper was impeded deliberately.

Which was something he later admitted to.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
and one of Costa Rica's goals were offside.

What? Do you really know what are u talking about?
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LTU932
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
one of Costa Rica's goals were offside.

See below.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 10):
Do you really know what are u talking about?

I do. The way I saw it, it may have been too close to call. Maybe it's just the camera angle, the angle in which the line man was standing or simply co-incidence. In some of the replays of Wanchope's goal in question, it may have looked like he was just barely standing in an offside position, but in the other, it may have been just an optical illusion, as the pass was done and Wanchope started running forward to the ball, so he could score. It's a matter of perception really.

Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
These are just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head. When will FIFA get their referee selections right???

It will probably never be right. Fact is, they're all human and make mistakes, even the best do. For example, nobody ever knows if the infamous "Wembley Goal" was a legitimate goal or not. Plus there might always be some kind of bias by the referee in place, which can contribute to bad calls. As long as referees are human people like all of us, it will be dificult to see a match ever being lead by the book by any referee.
 
Banco
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:37 pm

I always think it's a bit harsh when people criticise the linesmen for getting an offside decision fractionally wrong. I tend to marvel at how many they get right. Think about it, they have to have one eye on the ball, one eye on the player making the run and be able to see where he is a the precise moment the ball is kicked. That's just a physical impossibility much of the time (especially with long passes), and yet we see endless replays about a "poor" decision when someone is marginally offside yet allowed to go.

The referees themselves will always be a product of the type of football played where they are from. So an English or Scottish referee is much more inclined to allow robust challenges in the air than one from elsewhere for example. Take Sol Campbell's "goal" in Euro 2004 against Portugal. All the English thought the challenge was fine, the rest of Europe did not, and it is true to say that had that goal being scored in the Premier League it would have stood.

There clearly have been mistakes, of course. The goal against Australia absolutely shouldn't have stood, but overall I don't think it's been too bad this World Cup. At least we haven't seen the mayhem of red cards we got at say, the 1990 World Cup.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:28 pm

What I can't stand of refereeing are the stupid bookings they give and not enough yellow cards for violent fouls. A ref can make a mistake on a close offside call, or whether a foul was in the box or not, but did you guys watch Italy-Ghana? Iaquinta suffered a pretty nasty foul from the back when the play had been stopped for offside (I think it was Kuffour who made the foul) and nothing by the ref. Also Totti suffered a bad foul and not even a yellow. Yet Iaquinta then threw the ball and did get a yellow.  banghead 

regards  Smile
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 4):
Quoting IFEMaster (Thread starter):
The decisions against Peter Crouch against Paraguay were totally ridiculous.

Let's remember, we don't know what Crouch said to the ref.

But what he may have said would have been as a result of being penalised unfairly.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 5):
Quoting David L (Reply 3):
And why was Magnin booked? He hardly touched Henry.

It's always been like this. The refs are normally much more tolerant when it comes to the famous players.

I don't agree at all. It seems to me that when someone goes down some referees feel obliged to give a foul one way or the other and some "famous" players have been on the receiving end, too. And I don't believe it's always been like that, either. You always used to get the odd dodgy referee or one who had a bad game but I think it's worse this year.

Quoting Azza40 (Reply 7):
Have over-head kicks been banned? I have already seen 3 over-head kicks being given a free kick for dangerous play! I think its a joke!

Like everyone else, I'm all for spectacular overhead kicks but sometimes it gets out of hand. Spectacular, yes; bloody dangerous, sometimes. That said, I don't recall the incidents you mentioned - I may have been out of the room.

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
I always think it's a bit harsh when people criticise the linesmen for getting an offside decision fractionally wrong.

I completely agree. Offside isn't a big problem but I don't agree that the seemingly random decisions are due to the style of football the referee is used to. There have been so many fouls given that have left spectators wondering why and I don't mean tackles that might be allowed in some places and not in others, I mean ones where it's very difficult to see where there was any infringement.
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:28 pm

Italy commited a clear tackle on Ghana inside the goalie's area when the game score was 1-0, yet it wasn't called.

As of today, no Ref has had the balls to call a Penalty kick.... pathetic.

Nevertheless, refs this world cup have been 10X better than Korea/Japan.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 15):
Italy commited a clear tackle on Ghana inside the goalie's area when the game score was 1-0, yet it wasn't called.

As of today, no Ref has had the balls to call a Penalty kick.... pathetic.

And Tim Cahill was a bit lucky against Japan. But, apart from those, there haven't been a lot of decent penalty claims. It's a bit early to say no-one has "had the balls" to award a penalty.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 15):
Nevertheless, refs this world cup have been 10X better than Korea/Japan.

My argument does fall apart a little since I didn't see a lot of that one  . But "10x better"? Really? It was that bad last time? I'm surprised I didn't hear as many complaining about it as I have this time.

[Edited 2006-06-14 15:54:32]
 
Zen100
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:35 pm

The referee in the Trinidad game was from Singapore. The call he made was unfair. He was probably suffereing from nerves, still it's grossly unfair to Trinidad. And he should be sent back to Singapore.
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airbusA346
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:05 pm

A red card just for pulling a shirt, what a bad desision Mr Swiss Referee.

Tom.
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:06 pm

There you go. A penalty's been given to Spain... for what? The referee can't have seen a foul, since there wasn't one, but he guessed there must have been one.

Edit: And, of course, a red card for nothing.

 

[Edited 2006-06-14 16:08:13]
 
Banco
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:08 pm

Yes, that was an absolute shocker. If we're going to see red cards and penalties for that we're going to have 15 penalties a game and three a side.  Yeah sure
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:12 pm

I guess that's a referee with too many balls.  Smile
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:35 pm

I can't believe that decision for Spain. That's amateur refereeing and Ukraine have been hard done by.

Is there an appeals process for red cards during the World Cup?
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yooyoo
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 22):
I can't believe that decision for Spain

i have not seen the match, but i hear it's the refs first "pro" game. He has done several U-20 world matches.

 twocents 
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting YooYoo (Reply 23):
i hear it's the refs first "pro" game. He has done several U-20 world matches.

Hmm... FIFA and UEFA have already had a disagreement about the quality of one European ref.
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting YooYoo (Reply 23):
i have not seen the match, but i hear it's the refs first "pro" game. He has done several U-20 world matches.

I'm not watching the game, but Referee Busacca of Switzerland has done Champions League games and is by no means a rookie. It's probably the heat  Wink
 
airbusA346
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:55 pm

Didn't refs have to do English Tests to qualify to become a ref in the WC.

Tom.
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IFEMaster
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:55 pm

Gotta say it - even without the ref's abyssmal decision(s), Spain looked very strong. They owned Ukraine; looked inventive and and aware all the time, and the two Liverpool players showed some of that excellent Spanish flare.
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 25):
Referee Busacca of Switzerland has done Champions League games and is by no means a rookie.

It would certainly be unusual for an experienced referee to be given a World Cup match and in Europe I would think that Champions League or UEFA Cup is a pre-requisite.

Having seen the penalty incident from a different angle, I'm now sure that, though there was some "grabbing of shorts" outside the area, there was no foul inside the area and I doubt many refs would have given the "foul" outside the area. It really was nothing but it is par for the course so far.
 
Banco
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting David L (Reply 28):
though there was some "grabbing of shorts"

Italy or Argentina would never make it to half-time with more than four on the pitch if they start giving those.
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aviationmaster
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:15 am

Another thing I noticed while watching some matches, the refs have been handing out yellow cards for smaller incidents which a player would have got by before with a warning. An example is Zidane, who yesterday played the ball before the ref had allowed him to do so and was promptly given the yellow card.

Quoting David L (Reply 28):

It would certainly be unusual for an experienced referee to be given a World Cup match and in Europe I would think that Champions League or UEFA Cup is a pre-requisite.

Champions League and UEFA Cup experience HAS to be a pre-requisite for a European referee. Same goes for South American refs which should have Copa Libertadores experience.
 
David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 29):
Italy or Argentina would never make it to half-time with more than four on the pitch if they start giving those.

Exactly. It was nothing.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 30):
Champions League and UEFA Cup experience HAS to be a pre-requisite for a European referee

That was my understanding but I wasn't sure enough to say so. Unfotunately, my ex-UEFA contact has tickets for quite a few games and no mobile phone so I'm having to wing it.  Smile
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 15):
Nevertheless, refs this world cup have been 10X better than Korea/Japan.

Hola Luis,
agree 100%. I remember how much refs helped Korea for example, especially against Spain. I believe that ref was from Egypt? That said, we will have to see how refs respond under the pressure of the knock out stages.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 15):
taly commited a clear tackle on Ghana inside the goalie's area when the game score was 1-0, yet it wasn't called.

I thought it was not clear. Only after the replay it seemed like a PK, but then again, when its your country involved you can't be 100% objective  Wink

saludos  Smile
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TransIsland
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:33 am

Just like with any other footie match, there are doubtful and/or wrong calls. However, by and large the referees are doing a MUCH better job than they were doing four years ago.
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:52 am

OK, I get the point that the refereeing is better than it was four years ago (as I said, I didn't get to see much of it) but that's hardly an excuse. It was better in earlier World Cups. Maybe it is just nerves.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 33):
Just like with any other footie match, there are doubtful and/or wrong calls.

I'd be happy if there were doubtful calls "just like with any other footie match". It's the abundance of them that's annoying me. Maybe our referees are better than I thought.
 
David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:51 am

Now that was a good refereeing performance - Germany v. Poland.
 
ZRH
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:59 am

I think the refs are much better than they were four years ago in Korea/Japan. There for example Korea never ever would have proceeded to the 1/2 finals without the help of the refs. It was absolutely scandalous.
 
David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 36):
Korea never ever would have proceeded to the 1/2 finals without the help of the refs

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I know there were a few dodgy decisions in Korea's favour but that's not the same as the almost wholesale incompetence I've seen so far this year. Competently biased in a few matches v. generally incompetent.  Smile
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 37):
Competently biased in a few matches v. generally incompetent.

I prefer an incompetent ref rather than a biased one. At least if the ref sucks, he'll make bad calls for both sides and maybe my team will get a penalty kick or something. If the ref is biased, for whatever reason, there's no way around that.

regards  Smile
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 38):

I think I'm going to let this thread go. I didn't say I prefer one to the other. I'm saying there's more bad refereeing this time. Even if you prefer incompetence, there's no need for it.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:11 am

Anybody know why Hislop(Trinidad goalie) got a yellow card today? I missed some of the match...
 
BartiniMan
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 40):
Anybody know why Hislop(Trinidad goalie) got a yellow card today? I missed some of the match...

I believe it was for time wasting (?)
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 39):
I didn't say I prefer one to the other

i never said you did, sorry if it came out that way. I was just giving my opinion  Smile

Quoting David L (Reply 39):
Even if you prefer incompetence, there's no need for it.

The thing is, as much as it pisses me off more often than not, that bad calls by the refs is just part of the game. Football has become so big even with incompetent refs

regards  Smile
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 42):
i never said you did, sorry if it came out that way.

Fair enough.  

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 42):
bad calls by the refs is just part of the game

Well if that's really the case, at the risk of sounding xenophobic, I guess the refs in Scotland and England really are that much better and we should probably stop complaining about them for their occasional mistakes.

Quoting David L (Reply 39):
I think I'm going to let this thread go.

I know there are a few here who think posting after even implying you've finished with a thread is the most heinous crime one can commit... tough! I didn't sign anything to that effect. You'll drive yourself to an early grave if you get worked up about something like that.  

Deit: the refs have been better in the last few games. Good referees do exist.

[Edited 2006-06-16 12:13:54]
 
JRadier
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:46 pm

You know what they say here in the Netherlands? We've got 16 million football coaches during the World Cup. I think the same goes for referees....
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 44):
You know what they say here in the Netherlands? We've got 16 million football coaches during the World Cup. I think the same goes for referees....

Well, if you're happy with all the refereeing perfomances, good for you.

As I said, there have been some good displays and they're what show up the bad ones.
 
yooyoo
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:57 pm

What ever happened to the tall, bald Italian ref...sort of looks like the singer from Midnight Oil? Now he was good and had a good communications with the players.

I heard rumours he was too old to ref. Anybody have some info?
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
JRadier
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 45):
Well, if you're happy with all the refereeing perfomances, good for you.

I don't really care about the world cup, just the Dutch team. What I was saying is that judging while sitting on the couch, in a cafe or wherever is easy, but I would like to see you do it on the field.
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David L
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 47):
judging while sitting on the couch, in a cafe or wherever is easy, but I would like to see you do it on the field.

I'm not comparing them to me. I'm comparing them to other referees   
I do care about the World Cup.

[Edited 2006-06-16 16:51:42]
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Refereeing The World Cup

Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting YooYoo (Reply 46):
What ever happened to the tall, bald Italian ref...sort of looks like the singer from Midnight Oil? Now he was good and had a good communications with the players.

I heard rumours he was too old to ref. Anybody have some info?

You're talking about Pierluigi Colina. Best referee ever. EASports even used him in some of their FIFA games. He retired a couple of years ago.
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