Marco
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Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:13 pm

http://www.aina.org/guesteds/20060522114735.htm

This is an interesting read. These four points sum up alot of the aggravation the Assyrians feel in Iraq:

1-Since the eighteenth century, the Assyrians have suffered the most at the hands of the Kurds.
2-The origin of the Kurds is ambiguous.
3-The Kurds are not the indigenous people of northern Iraq (Assyria).
4-There never existed a real country, state, or kingdom called Kurdistan

And these are interesting points. Kurdish history is at best ambiguous, there has never been a great Kurdish civilization like the Assyrians have had, the Arabs, etc...so why then do people insist on injustly calling the land Kurdistan? ...kind of reminds me of how the colonial powers divided the world ... according to their own desire with little consideration of the local indigenous populations!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
oly720man
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:30 pm

Quoting Marco (Thread starter):
kind of reminds me of how the colonial powers divided the world ... according to their own desire with little consideration of the local indigenous populations!

and history comes back to bite, decades or even centuries later. There was a tv program over here last night that covered this; mostly with respect to what happened before and after the first world war.

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/t-z/warworld.html
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Marco (Thread starter):
Kurdistan?

well, whatever, if looking up matters under www.krg.org it becomes obvious to me that they, after having received military training from the USA, will secede at the earliest opportunity. I regret to say that your folks most likely will be among those to suffer most from such a development, not to speak of the effects of such developments upon Kurdish-dominated areas of Turkey and Iran.
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:11 am

Support TURKEY and its fight against Kurd terrorists!  yell 
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 3):
Kurd terrorists!

I would NOT see THE Kurds in Turkey and elsewhere as "terrorists" in such a general way. To see the following network of defacto-embassies on the WEBsite of the Kurdish "Regional" Government however leads me the conclusion that just to have some autonomy "up-north" is NOT really what they are looking for :
-
* KRG Representation in CIS countries
Moscow, Russian Federation
Phone: +7(095)248 44 50
Fax: +7(095)248 44 50
Email: rus(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Representation in United Arab Emirates
Phone: +971-50-427-1641
Fax: +971-6-531-4005
Email: uae(at)rp.krg.org

Europe

* KRG Representation in Austria
Vertretung der Regionalregierung Kurdistan-Irak in Österreich
P.O. Box 49
A-1011 Vienna, Austria
Phone: +43 664 34 50 465
Fax: +43 1 544 03 05
Email: austria(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Mission to the European Union
rue de la loi 221
1040 Brussels
BELGIUM
Phone: +32-2-513 72 28
Fax: +32-2-513 36 79
Email: eu(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Representation in France
Phone: +33 1 42 65 18 45
Fax: +33 1 42 65 18 46
Email: france(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Representation in Germany
Vertretung der Regionalregierung-Kurdistan Irak in Deutschland
P.O. Box 150 101
D-10633 Berlin, Germany
Phone: +49 30 7974 8491
Fax: +49 30 7974 8492
Email: germany(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Representation in the Nordic Countries
Box 7127
SE-170 07 Solna
Sweden
Phone: +46 8 442 0505
Fax: +46 8 442 0905
Email: nordic(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Representation in Switzerland
Dr. Fauzi Kaddur
Postfach 113
CH-9012 St.Gallen
Switzerland
Phone: +41 71 333 31 55
Fax: +41 71 333 30 29
Mobile: 0+41 79 601 35 55
Email: switzerland(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Representation in Poland
Rynek Glówny 39/8
31-013 Kraków
Poland
Phone: +48 12 429-11-93
Fax: +48 12 429-11-93
Email: poland(at)rp.krg.org


* KRG Representation in the United Kingdom
Winchester House, 8th Floor
259-269 Old Marylebone Road
London NW1 5RA
Phone: +44 (0)20 7170 4300
Fax: +44 (0)20 7170 4301
Email: uk(at)krg.org
It is necessary to make an appointment before visiting the UK office. For administrative matters, appointments can be made on Mondays or Thursdays from 11.00 to 16.00 GMT.

N.America

* KRG Representation to the USA, Canada & the UN
1420 Spring Hill Road, Suite 600
Mclean, Virginia 22102, USA
Phone: 703 442 5314
Fax: 703 442 5316
Email: us(at)rp.krg.org
Nijyar H. Shemdin, U.S. Representative of Kurdistan Regional Government, is registered under the Foreign Agents Registration Act on behalf of Kurdistan Regional Government, Erbil. Additional information concerning the registration is on file at the U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C..

Oceania

* KRG Representation in Australia
P O Box 491 Liverpool
NSW 2170 Sydney
Australia
Phone: 612 98 22 22 72
Fax: 612 98 22 22 76
Email: australia(at)rp.krg.org

------------------------------------------------------------------
all taken from www.krg.org
-
 
Marco
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:41 am

Bofredrik,

I never said support Turkey and never called the Kurds in Turkey terrorists. Apparently, the whole point of this article flew right over your head. The point is Kurds are originally from the mountains of Turkey/Iran and have an ambiguous historical claim over northern Iraq. The only reason why the USA is giving them northern Iraq is because Iraq has become the new puppet of the USA. Imagine what would happen if the USA demanded Turkey to give them independance...yeah right
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 5):
reason why the USA is giving them northern Iraq is because Iraq has become the new puppet of the USA. Imagine what would happen if the USA demanded Turkey to give them independance...yeah right

while NOT claiming to be a clairvoyant, I expect the USA one day to regret their support for the Kurds !
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 4):
I would NOT see THE Kurds...



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 4):
is NOT really what they are looking for



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
while NOT claiming to be a clairvoyant...

WHY are YOU writing with CAPITAL letters? It is very ANNOYING
 
Marco
Topic Author
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:48 am

I totally agree with you...cough taliban cough...
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
while NOT claiming to be a clairvoyant, I expect the USA one day to regret their support for the Kurds !

They've been the most stable throughout the entire Saddam/Iraq mess; they've even prospered compared to the other regions...it could work out just fine.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:46 am

ANC was not terrorists, PKK is not (?) terrorists but Al Qaida is terrorists. It is not easy to understand who is what... I only know that PKK have murdered many Turkish military, policemen and civilians. And they still put bombs that hurt civilians in Turkey today.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
while NOT claiming to be a clairvoyant, I expect the USA one day to regret their support for the Kurds !

Why? If the Kurds do form their own country, it will likely be a Democracy, very friendly to the US, probably prosperous...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Marco
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:10 pm

Bofredrik,

Perhaps you need to take a break, read the article then start posting. Frankly I don't care about the PKK in Turkey. We're talking about Kurds in Iraq. If you still insist on posting about Turkey and ignoring my explanation feel free to start another thread.

Maverick,

They've been the most stable throughout the entire Saddam/Iraq mess; they've even prospered compared to the other regions...it could work out just fine.

Most stable? A people that has several militias running around making sure only their parties get votes is not my idea of stable. Around 200,000 Assyrian votes were not taken because Kurdish militias surrounded Assyrian towns in the last elections. The Kurd's "homeland" is not northern Iraq, and yet they are very ready to split the country. That's not justice or democracy. That's the US meddling with something it knows nothing about and at the same time creating a problem for itself in the future.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:06 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
They've been the most stable throughout the entire Saddam/Iraq mess; they've even prospered compared to the other regions...it could work out just fine.

---

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
Why? If the Kurds do form their own country, it will likely be a Democracy, very friendly to the US, probably prosperous...

-
I have no doubts about the ability of the Kurds to establish a working country, maybe even a democracy. The US-American in the longer term will be that the USA within NATO is allied with Turkey, and Turkey regards the MustafaKemal-VonDerGoltz-line (southeastern borderline) as untouchable and beyond compromise. An independent Kurdistan in NorthernIraq of course will however bring the Kurds inside Turkey into wishing to join.

Quoting Marco (Reply 12):
The Kurd's "homeland" is not northern Iraq, and yet they are very ready to split the country. That's not justice or democracy. That's

You may be right in longer-term history, BUT what is Northern Iraq now already in later times of the Ottoman Empire was a Kurdish area, or at least regarded as a Kurdish area.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:05 pm

I'm sorry, replace Kurds here with Palestinians and what do we get?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:01 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
replace Kurds here with Palestinians and what do we get?

you point to existing similarities, the differences however are tremendous. The longer term problem in case of the Kurdish matter is that their areas are BOTH in Iraq and heavily inside of NATO-partner Turkey, and to a minor extent even in Iran. Another aspect is, and that is what "Marco" tries desperately to bring home, that there are minorities and minorities WITHIN minorities. And, just as elsewhere, "locations" and relative strength of ethnic groups shift in the longer term.
 
emrecan
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:35 pm

Hi everyone..


I think you guys don't know about the situation in Tukey.

First of all Turkish and Kurdish people live together Ýn Turkey without any problems. They have the same rights, there is no classification about people's nationalities. There are also Kurdish Politicians in our Government.

But, there is a big problem in the east part of Turkey. It is mostly because of unemployment and bad incomes of people. Also unfortunately the education level of the people are very low. Due to these problems, people from east part of Turkey are immigrating to big cities located in the west part of the country.
Mostly Kurdish people live in this zone, east of Turkey. They don't have education, job and money. But they have minimum 5-6 children. Day by day this population is growing. The situation is going worse and worse.
You can easily deceive these people. They have nothing to loose. Unfortunately the heads of the terrorists do this. They cheat these poor and ignorant people with lies like free Kurdistan. They give them guns, rifles, bombs. As a result they kill innocent people, babies, women.... They don't know why they are doing.. The reality goes on like this...


For me the real problem is; in other countries, especially in European countries, the people think that "the Kurdish people are under pressure, they don't have any right, Turkish people hate Kurdish people". It is a big LIE. They have to come and see first and then they must make comments.
I know that especially Switzerland give staying and working permit to people who says "I am Kurdish, and in Turkey I am under pressure because of being Kurdish, I don't have any right like Turkish people".

It is very clear that some countries are trying to make some politics over Kurdish people.

Finally I am repeating again, the Kurdish and Turkish people have no problems, they have the same rights. If a person says "I am Kurdish and because of this I am not freely doing anything" don't believe them. Their target is different.

Thnx for reading.
Best regards
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 16):
Turkish and Kurdish people live together Ýn Turkey without any problems

why not. The question rather is what the Turkish GOVERNMENT will do and say when Turkish Kurds might want to join an independent Kurdistan.

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 16):
lies like free Kurdistan.

"lies like free Kurdistan" ? what lies ? you write as if the possibility of an independent Kurdistan on territories at present part of Iraq and Turkey is a lie

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 16):
Kurdish people

you mention Switzerland. well, a question to you: ever heard about Mr Karl May (Kara Ben-Nemsi) ? you know what I am talking about ?
 
emrecan
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:17 pm

ME AVN FAN

If some people come and tell you,"give us some land from your country, we will make a new country" will you accept this?

Turkey will never give even 1 squaremeter of its land to anyone. OK?
It is very clear. Noone can take land from us. There is no possibility of free Kurdistan on Turkish territory.

Go and take a map of Turkey. Check the borders. These borders will never change. There are some stupid maps showing east part of Turkey as Kurdistan. It is no true !

What do you mean by Turkish Kurds? are there types of Kurds like American Kurds, English Kurds? What are you talking about?

There can be free Kurdistan in Switzerland. I guess you will be very happy to give land from your country to them. I advise you to go and live with them, if you like them so much.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 18):
f some people come and tell you,"give us some land from your country, we will make a new country" will you accept this?

People in the Jura-region, formerly part of the Canton of Berne, in the 70ies and 80ies demanded their own canton. The Canton of Jura now is one of the Swiss cantons with its own parliament and with its own government, taking taxes from its inhabitants and maintaining its own police force. They were given, after a popular vote in the contested areas, all those areas who voted in favour of a separate canton.

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 18):
Turkey will never give even 1 squaremeter of its land to anyone. OK?

The land in question, according to Kurds, is Kurdish land, whenever inside Turkey at present. And then no longer will be "its" land.

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 18):
There is no possibility of free Kurdistan on Turkish territory



Quoting Emrecan (Reply 18):
These borders will never change

you sound like old Prime Minister Ian Smith of Rhodesia who proudly proclaimed in his days "there will not be majority rule in Rhodesia in 1000 years". Those 1000 years passed away, just as the 1000 years of a German ruler of modern times became history.

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 18):
What do you mean by Turkish Kurds? are there types of Kurds like American Kurds, English Kurds? What are you talking about?

There are no English Kurds, but there are Turkish Kurds, Iraqi Kurds, Iranian Kurds and Syrian Kurds .

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 18):
I advise you to go and live with them, if you like them so much.

There are numerous Kurds living in the Greater Zurich area. They even maintain offices of their parties, cultural offices etc. The only occasions when they irk me is when their frequent demonstrations block roads.

Your a bit emotional position highlights exactly what I tried to tell the others on this thread. The US-Americans in the past 3 years educated Kurdish (Iraqi Kurds ! ) in Iraq, gave weapons to them, supported them in every way, and apparently believe that they were ready to accept autonomy as THE solution. I above mentioned the WEBsite of the Kurdish Regional Government. When reading that WEBsite, the impression is clear.
 
emrecan
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:11 pm

ME AVN FAN

The land in question, according to Kurds, is Kurdish land, whenever inside Turkey at present. And then no longer will be "its" land.

I am telling again, there is no Kurdistan in Turkish territory. This is the reality. Moreover you say is your fantasies.
I told you before, give some land from Switzerland.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 20):

I am telling again, there is no Kurdistan in Turkish territory. This is the reality. Moreover you say is your fantasies.
I told you before, give some land from Switzerland.

ask some Kurds where Kurdistan is. No, they will not say it is in some areas in Switzerland, they will show you the Kurdish areas in what is nowadays South-Eastern Turkey, what is Northern Iraq, and parts of North-Western Iran.
 
emrecan
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:04 am

ME AVN FAN

There is no Kurdistan. It is the reality. If you don`t want to understand this, you have mental problems.
Sorry for you
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 22):
mental problems

more info about "mental problems" can be seen under
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan
-
suggest you have a close look
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 22):
no Kurdistan

-
some more mental problems under :

& under


[Edited 2006-06-22 17:22:23]
 
emrecan
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:15 am

 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Emrecan (Reply 25):
nothing to say more

the second simply is how countries look now. Frontiers in history are subject to change. the first one simply is the administrative map of Turkey, and includes the Sandshak of Alexandrette/Iskandariyah. Suggest you travel to Damascus and have a look how the borderline looks like on Syrian maps. So much about borders. Have a look at similar maps of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia of the 1980ies. Experts may have foreseen things to come, I however would never have expected what in the past 16 years has become reality there. They mighty Soviet Union to break up into various countries ? Fantasy in the 1980ies, long-established reality now. Yemen and South Yemen to become united ? Science-Fiction in the 80ies, definite realities now.
-
No Sir, national boundaries ARE subject to change in the course of history. And history goes on and will go on.
 
windshear
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
I'm sorry, replace Kurds here with Palestinians and what do we get?

You know what? I was about to post the very same thing after about 4 replies... I chose not to, but glad some one else sees it aswell  Smile

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 27):
the very same thing

some similarities, some similar aspects, but also enormous differences in many many ways. You may have noticed that "Marco" points to the aspect that there in Northern Iraq also are other minorities who have to fear to be "run over" in the upcoming developments. As "Emrecan" points out, Turkey is (he may be right or wrong, but possibly right to 80% ! ) NOT ready to yield any square meter back from the MustafaKemal-VonDerGoltz-line (of 1916). I fear that we, in regard to the Kurdistan-matter, are about in the stage of the 1930ies and 1940ies in regard to the Palestine-Israel-matter. I just hope, people really will be that more sophisticated in the future than in the past !
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:19 am

comparing palestine's situation with the Israelis to the Kurds and Turks is wrong in my opinion. The two may be related in a weak way when you think in terms of minorities wanting their freedom etc. But there is relatively no more in common than this. The main reason why Israel and Palestine don't come to terms is religion. There are some things that need to be cleared up here because as a person who flies to Europe daily, and one who has lived all over the World, I can't stand ignorance....the sources are out there, people should do research before solidifying an opinion.

1. There is a massive misconception that Turkish people mistreat kurds. This to me is a bunch of bs. We don't walk around wearing ID tags...If we mistreated Kurds because they were Kurdish and used no other foundation then all of our "blonde" jokes would be about Kurds. Ironically, all our jokes are about Turks, especially from the North, where i am from. In no way is a Kurdish person opressed or beaten because they are Kurdish. They work here and pay their taxes just like everyone else. They have their own schools, radio and Tv channels that is officially recognized by the Gov of Turkey. So comparing it to Israel and Palestine is way off....

2. Next, KURD in Turkey, is NOT the same thing as Terrorist. However, EU media uses this misconception MAJORLY to their advantage, and as I've seen in articles around Europe in the past decade, I see how Governments and media try to brain wash the masses, depending on what they think people should feel about Turkey and the Kurds.

3. It's unfortunate for the terrorist kurds (PKK) that want a piece of Turkey for their own. Lately they've stepped up their terrorist campaign against us, because they can't bash heads against Iraq and the USA. It just goes to show, they will take whatever land they can get, has nothing to do with a specific piece of land, which makes me less sympathetic with them as time goes along, because I would at least respect them for trying to get some of Turkey, but it now shows that they will take whatever land they can easily try to attack...that to me is not protecting where you're from, that is just trying to snatch what you can get. So is it about their heritage? If so they should be attacking N. Iraq MUCH more than Turkey....

4. The PKK had numerous chances to sit down at the table during the Saddam times and also with the USA and Turkish republics, i know first hand about many negotiations which were kept secret back then in the days, the gov of TUrkey tried very hard to convert the PKK kurds into kurdish citizens of Turkey, they refused and blood was constantly spilled.

5. Nothing is black and white.....history didn't happen in one night, things have an effect on other things, some things happened because of others, others wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the first things that happened etc.....even reading what i just wrote is hard....how easy do you think it is to document EACH piece of history, the borders are what they are today, and changing them will lead to MASSIVE conflict and blood shed....

Ireland, Spain and soon France I think will face this problem, in a different way. Sometimes the problem is that most of the people fighting for the PKK don't even know what they're fighting for...independance? from what? for what? it's just a word in their head that carries images of their dreams.

I don't expect European posters to understand what's going on here, so when some of you posters write off the wall stuff, i don't react much, I feel perfectly sane knowing that I live here, and i see and experience the truth, I don't need a documentary or a half ass propaganda report to tell me what to think
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
Marco
Topic Author
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:45 am

Kurdistan seems like an invention to me. A Kurdish civilization with borders, never existed like the Assyrian one did. The Assyrian civilization was a great one and contributed alot to science. ME AVN FAN, I see your point regarding minorities and thanks for understanding my point (which seems to have been missed by many) - how did the Assyrians become a minority? They weren't always a minority and as early as the beginning of the twentieth century the Assyrians were not a minority. However when the Ottoman Empire decided to kill the Armenians about 750,000 Assyrians perished (with the help of Kurds by the way). Yet no one remembers this incident. Furthermore the Kurds have been intimidating Assyrian villages and towns, they have more children than Assyrians and so obviously they have become a majority. But this cannot be disregarded when determing the fate of northern Iraq. One cannot say that they are a majority and hence they have the claim to the region. The whole region is named after Assyrian words. The region is called Nineveh, the capital of the once prosperous Assyrian civilization.

Also, as an Assyrian I do not want to split up Iraq - it's my country. It was with the help of exile groups that the USA invaded our country and this will not be forgotten. The exiled "groups" need not to be mentioned but I do hope the USA watches out because it's creating another Iran in Iraq - the same people they saved are the ones that hate them the most.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 29):
a massive misconception that Turkish people mistreat kurds. This to me is a bunch of bs. We don't walk around wearing ID tags...If we mistreated Kurds because they were Kurdish

the impression is that the Turkish Republic A) until fairly recently was not very accommodating in regard to the Kurdish language to express it politely and B) is NOT in favour of allowing provinces who in a popular vote may decide in favour of independence to quit the republic and to establish a new country.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 29):
EU media uses this misconception

"EU-media" ? you mean that all TV-stations, radio-stations + newspapers in Western Europe have a unified position ?

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 29):
Governments and media try to brain wash the masses, depending on what they think people should feel about Turkey and the Kurds.

again, do you want to imply that all the West-European government, TV-stations, radio-stations + newspapers have the same intention and position and understanding of Turkey and Kurdistan, or Turks and Kurds ?

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 29):
kurds (PKK) that want a piece of Turkey for their own.

they want the areas with Kurdish majority in their independent state, while "they" is what looks to be the majority. A popular vote under international supervision may clarify this point

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 29):
It just goes to show, they will take whatever land they can get, has nothing to do with a specific piece of land,

so that you mean that they would "take" also a part of Western Turkey if offered ? hardly. They clearly declare what area they want, and that is quite a "specific piece" of land

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 29):
4. The PKK had numerous chances to sit down at the table during the Saddam times and also with the USA and Turkish republic

what should they have sat down with the Turkish Republic about ? did the leaders of the Turkish Republic offer them independence ? or at least offer an autonomy as Saddam Hussein DID do ?

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 29):
Ireland, Spain and soon France

Ireland ? no, it is not Ireland which has a problem with a region, but the United Kingdom, which has Northern Ireland, the region which in the 20ies in a popular vote decided in favour of the U.K.
Spain ? Catalonia quite recently strenthened its federal autonomy. What is of course still a problem, for Spain and for France, is the Basque issue. But the point that also other people in the world have such problems does NOT cancel other problems

[Edited 2006-06-22 19:12:01]

[Edited 2006-06-22 19:13:17]
 
windshear
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 30):
However when the Ottoman Empire decided to kill the Armenians about 750,000 Assyrians perished (with the help of Kurds by the way)

Didn't the Kurds "lend a hand" in the mass murder of the Armenians, because the Ottoman empire promised them a Kurdistan? That is what I have heard.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 32):
However when the Ottoman Empire decided to kill the Armenians about 750,000 Assyrians perished (with the help of Kurds by the way)

Didn't the Kurds "lend a hand" in the mass murder of the Armenians, because the Ottoman empire promised them a Kurdistan? That is what I have heard.

I don't know, but would advise to be careful with such rumours. In 1916, the Ottoman Empire, under its triumvirate, also was in a sitation that they hardly promised much. And as exactly in those days, with the approval of Enver Basha, General Mustafa Kemal and the two German delegates, General Liman von-Sanders and FieldMarshal Von-der-Goltz fixed what then was the "final defence line" and finally was made, by Mustafa Kemal Basha, the South-Eastern borderline of Turkey, I do NOT believe this rumour. At least not, until being shown REAL proof !
 
andessmf
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:36 am

I just simply have to congratulate everybody on a very decent thread, where all opinions are being shown and answered in a civilized manner.

Thanks for some very educational information to me.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 30):
Kurdistan seems like an invention to me. A Kurdish civilization with borders, never existed like the Assyrian one did. The Assyrian civilization was a great one and contributed alot to science. ME AVN FAN, I see your point regarding minorities and thanks for understanding my point (which seems to have been missed by many) - how did the Assyrians become a minority? They weren't always a minority and as early as the beginning of the twentieth century the Assyrians were not a minority. However when the Ottoman Empire decided to kill the Armenians about 750,000 Assyrians perished (with the help of Kurds by the way). Yet no one remembers this incident. Furthermore the Kurds have been intimidating Assyrian villages and towns, they have more children than Assyrians and so obviously they have become a majority. But this cannot be disregarded when determing the fate of northern Iraq. One cannot say that they are a majority and hence they have the claim to the region. The whole region is named after Assyrian words. The region is called Nineveh, the capital of the once prosperous Assyrian civilization.

Also, as an Assyrian I do not want to split up Iraq - it's my country. It was with the help of exile groups that the USA invaded our country and this will not be forgotten. The exiled "groups" need not to be mentioned but I do hope the USA watches out because it's creating another Iran in Iraq - the same people they saved are the ones that hate them the most.

That explains a lot. You're not exactly neutral on this issue. In fact you're busily advocating the Assyrian manifesto and schedule of atrocities.

I'm quite convinced that if there were any Kurds here we'd hear the exact polar opposite from them of everything you have said.

Well, never mind. Do you think for one minute the Kurds are likely to give up what they've got right now (defacto independence in northern Iraq) without a struggle?
Not bloody likely.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
the Kurds are likely to give up what they've got right now (defacto independence in northern Iraq) without a struggle?

quite to the contrary, they will move ahead to full independance at the earliest available opportunity, as that is what they have worked for in the past decades. I in the past have spoken with Kurds. While they of course have completely different views to those of 'Marco' in regard to many matters, there is not so much of a difference in regard to history, but a lot of a difference in regard to emphasis. While 'Marco' stresses the long-term history over millenia, the Kurds in general rather refer to the past 300 to 500 years only. While 'Marco' stresses the problem(s) of/with the various smaller minorities in Iraq, the Kurds emphasize their problems with Arabs and Turks, but also how closely linked they are and feel with both.
-
A problem, often overlooked, is that once the Iraqi Kurds "depart" the Arab Sunnis in Iraq, already at present only approx 20-25% of the population, will then only be 20% in what then will be north of the country. It may well be that the two parts will break up into "Iraq" being the Sunni-Arab country around Baghdad and XXX being a Shi'ite-Arab country in the South.
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The problem for minorities like Assyrians (and other Christians), Turkmens, Azerbaidjanis, etc will be that they in a way will land "between chairs".
-
 
Dougloid
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
A problem, often overlooked, is that once the Iraqi Kurds "depart" the Arab Sunnis in Iraq, already at present only approx 20-25% of the population, will then only be 20% in what then will be north of the country. It may well be that the two parts will break up into "Iraq" being the Sunni-Arab country around Baghdad and XXX being a Shi'ite-Arab country in the South.
-
The problem for minorities like Assyrians (and other Christians), Turkmens, Azerbaidjanis, etc will be that they in a way will land "between chairs".

Absolutely right, and that's what a lot of people have been saying all along. The problem you would have with total independence is that the bulk of the oil is in the northern and southern areas where the Kurds and Shia are a majority. Saddam tried his hand at ethnic cleansing and repopulation but that's an experiment that the Kurds seem intent on reversing.

I think Uncle realizes that a loose federation with a lot of autonomy and constitutional guarantees for minority populations may well be the best that can be hoped for.

If the present situation continues and Uncle bails-a real possibility-

You'll see a Shia theocratic state aligned with Iran-although, it must be said that the Iranians plain do not like Arabs whether they're coreligionists or not.

You'll see a Sunni state that is civil although it will owe a lot to Sunni Islam, and its political orientation will be toward Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States.

Then there'll be Kurdistan, and that's the big question mark because the Iranians and the Turks despise the notion of a Kurdistan and will do everything possible short of a war of conquest to strangle it in its cradle. That, Uncle will not allow.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Marco
Topic Author
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:36 am

That explains a lot. You're not exactly neutral on this issue. In fact you're busily advocating the Assyrian manifesto and schedule of atrocities.

I don't know many people that are neutral when it comes to politics, history or war. It's completely normal to have a bias as long as you can back it up and stay rational.

I'm quite convinced that if there were any Kurds here we'd hear the exact polar opposite from them of everything you have said.

And let them, they have every right to do that. But history cannot be re-written. Unfortunately, in reality history is always written by the victors. In this case it happens to be the Kurds with the help of the USA. Like I said, the people the USA saved hate them the most - I sincerely hope the Americans watch out - it's getting ugly.

The Assyrians have lived for millenia in this land and have been subjugated to oppression, massacres and ethnic cleansing yet you insinuate I have an agenda. Well yes I do - to make my plight known like Jews have done with regards to the holocaust, or the Armenians with regards to the Armenian genocide. There's nothing wrong with educating people about your history, your culture which has had millenia of continuous existence in this land. The Kurds cannot claim the same, not because I said so. Because history says so.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
b6sea
Posts: 358
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RE: Kurdistan? No, It's Called Northern Iraq...

Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
I have no doubts about the ability of the Kurds to establish a working country, maybe even a democracy. The US-American in the longer term will be that the USA within NATO is allied with Turkey, and Turkey regards the MustafaKemal-VonDerGoltz-line (southeastern borderline) as untouchable and beyond compromise. An independent Kurdistan in NorthernIraq of course will however bring the Kurds inside Turkey into wishing to join.

We'll deal with it like the Republic of China (I'm sorry, I mean Chinese Taipei/Taiwan/Formosa, what are they going by this week?) and PDR of China. I think that's a comparable, yet slightly more important situation that could be used as a model save for the island part.

-Chans

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