diamond
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Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:02 am

Part 1 of this topic has reached 200 replies and has been archived. A previous attempt to start Part 2 resulted in a technical error.

Please continue the discussion here.








Part 1: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths (by Dtwclipper Jun 13 2006 in Non Aviation)
Blank.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:08 am

Thank you Diamond. Here is what I tried to post and was unable to...

New information on the case:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

It seems that there is now little doubt that Israel was not responsible. MEAVNFAN, Cairo, QR and others--Gonna take back your harsh criticism now?

On Monday, the Human Rights Watch, while sticking to its demand for the establishment of an independent inquiry into a blast on a Gaza beach 10 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians, conceded for the first time since the incident that it could not contradict the IDF's exonerating findings.

Strengthening claims that the IDF was not responsible for the explosion, the Tel Aviv hospital said that no shrapnel was found in her body, except for one piece that was not reachable by surgery and would have to be left there. The damage to her body was "without doubt" caused by shrapnel.

Ichilov hospital did not accuse Shifa Hospital in Gaza of directly of removing shrapnel for no medical reason, but it said that it had never received a patient who was in an explosion with all the shrapnel removed (except for one unreachable piece).

Israeli authorities say the chances are "one-in-a-billion" that she was hurt by an Israeli missile.

Lucy Mair - head of the HRW's Jerusalem office - said Klifi's team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made "a good assessment" when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF shell had killed the seven Palestinians on the Gaza beach.
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fumanchewd
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:04 am

It most likely was not Israeli artillery, but an RPG attack initiated by the Mossad agent posing as a Ghanaian football player.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:09 am

If I am a radical, then I'm happy to be in the same boat as the head of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government:
http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011
"Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. "

And My Main Point, which is taught today at Harvard:

"...no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."

Anyone who thinks their credentials are higher than Harvard's or Jimmy Carter's, I invite you to post them here.


This is a paper not a sylibus for course work, how to you conclude that this is what is being proffesed?

"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
By John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
Working Paper Number:RWP06-011
Submitted: 03/13/2006
In this paper, John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago's Department of Political Science and Stephen M.Walt of Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government"
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fumanchewd
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
"Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. "

And My Main Point, which is taught today at Harvard:

"...no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."

What is your conclusion besides spouting unproductive cynicism? Sometimes things are done for what is right and not for what is the easiest thing to do.

Stating that there must be something wrong if America cares so much about Israel without receiving anything in turn is pretty silly. Unproductive cynicism with no sound conclusions.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
"Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. "

And My Main Point, which is taught today at Harvard:

"...no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."

Sorry, I should have pointed out that is a quote from "Cairo" from the first thread.

Sorry, bout that.
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cairo
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
It seems that there is now little doubt that Israel was not responsible. MEAVNFAN, Cairo, QR and others--Gonna take back your harsh criticism now?

I never said one word about this incident as I, nor anyone else on this board, has the slightest way of knowing what happened. I only speak what I can back with respected sources, such as this.*

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
This is a paper not a sylibus for course work, how to you conclude that this is what is being proffesed?

The way these things work is that they are tested in classes, discussions and coursework before or while they are in the draft paper stage. They are informally shared with academics across the world before they get to this point.

In any event, we can assume that the 2 professors who wrote it profess their correct belief that American policy in the ME is driven by Israeli interests at the expense of America** in their own classes and/or among their graduate students.

Furthermore, for a progressive leftward leaning instiution such as the Kennedy School of Government to have its teaching head publish this FACTUAL document means he is absolutely sure of is points and quite able to challenge the east coast forces that have their panties in an uproar about his paper.***

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
What is your conclusion besides spouting unproductive cynicism?

The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

It is productive since the first step to solving a problem is discovering it, admitting it, and moving on to creation of a foreign policy that puts America first. The opinion that the Iraq war and all of US policy in the ME serves mainly Israel - to the detriment of America, is not found only among radicals****.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Sometimes things are done for what is right and not for what is the easiest thing to do.

No argument with that.

The argument is what is right for America. Results, costs and consequences are of primary concern. To quote Spock - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Stating that there must be something wrong if America cares so much about Israel without receiving anything in turn is pretty silly

Caring is fine. I care about Bolivia, too. It's making America the undisputed tops of world resentment and distrust^, all for the sake of Israel, that is the problem.

I'd have no problem selling Israel weapons - and if the UN mandated a garrison of Israel to protect its borders, I'd accept it. The only thing I don't accept is sending Israel a trillion of my tax dollars for free and putting the safety of all of Americans at risk in the name of Israel.

Cairo


* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5099978.stm
** http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62438-2004Sep4.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050704fa_fact
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20041004/dreyfuss
*** http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/ed...i=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19062
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5353855
(You won't find many west coast American sources concerned with this since the further you are from NY and DC, the more Israel is of minimal concern)
**** http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...editorials/2003-03-17-oppose_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...n/A7832-2003Mar10?language=printer
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html
^ http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1797771,00.html

[Edited 2006-06-21 07:17:58]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:26 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
(You won't find many west coast American sources concerned with this since the further you are from NY and DC, the more Israel is of minimal concern)

Well I guess that pretty much blows the whole "Hollywood is controlled by liberal Jews" theory out of the water.
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fumanchewd
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):

The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

Funny you should use the term hijack. A majority of Americans support an Israeli state. How is that hijacked?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
The opinion that the Iraq war and all of US policy in the ME serves mainly Israel - to the detriment of America, is not found only among radicals****.

Yes, I believe that this opinion is incorrect. It also serves as a fight for democratic ideals. I don't know if we are going about it in the correct manner, but if in five years Iraq is a funtioning democracy, then all of this trouble was worth it. It does not mainly serve Israel as it will hopefully serve Iraqi citizens as well as the rest of the world.

You must have missed my above post that this position on America's motivations is merely hypothetical cynicism. It has no basis and serves no purpose.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
The only thing I don't accept is sending Israel a trillion of my tax dollars for free and putting the safety of all of Americans at risk in the name of Israel.

Well its up to the American voters to decide if they are willing to take that risk, and with the re-election one could say that they were.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
To quote Spock - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

...and that is Unamerican. We need to protect the few as well.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
The way these things work is that they are tested in classes, discussions and coursework before or while they are in the draft paper stage. They are informally shared with academics across the world before they get to this point.

In any event, we can assume that the 2 professors who wrote it profess their correct belief that American policy in the ME is driven by Israeli interests at the expense of America** in their own classes and/or among their graduate students.

No, that is not correct. It is a paper written for publication, and not "tested" in the classroom.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
Furthermore, for a progressive leftward leaning instiution such as the Kennedy School of Government to have its teaching head publish this FACTUAL

It is not factual, because you say it is, nor is it fact because it is written by to Profs. Please, it's a bad argument here.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
(You won't find many west coast American sources concerned with this since the further you are from NY and DC, the more Israel is of minimal concern)

Again, BS...
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:27 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
that Israel was not

I very much earlier stopped any allegation. BUT at the other hand do NOT accept the Jerusalem Post, btw. an excellent paper nevertheless, as a neutral source of information. And they base their information on information of the IDF, which has been the accused party. As I explained it earlier, it anyway is a kind of accident as neither the IDF nor Hamas wanted to kill that family, whatever may have happened there. And AGAIN, something very important HAS changed and that is that while the beaches were hardly accessible just last year they now are open and within easy reach of the population again. Weapons and landmines etc ? What if what as landmine originally "planted" to secure a settlement ? In my view simply a deplorable accident. -
-
What DID make me angry in the original thread is how US-Americans (not all but many) jumped with joy upon getting served by the IDF a chance to bash Palestinians. Without actual proof and without any independent investigation.
 
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 8):
The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

Funny you should use the term hijack.

A) Whatever the details, fact is that consecutive US-governments with the exception of the one of Jimmy Carter totally and absolutely and without real reservations supported Israel throughout
B) Majority of the US-people ? possible, but has there been a popular vote about this topic ever ? and how many percent of the US-population really ARE in favour of that unreserved support ? details please --- thanks
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
A) Whatever the details, fact is that consecutive US-governments with the exception of the one of Jimmy Carter totally and absolutely and without real reservations supported Israel throughout
B) Majority of the US-people ? possible, but has there been a popular vote about this topic ever ? and how many percent of the US-population really ARE in favour of that unreserved support ? details please --- thanks

I think it rather interesting that a thread - supposedly devoted to the question of whether Palestinians were killed by an Israeli shell - has been diverted to a discussion of US/Israel relationships ...especially when it appears there is increasingly strong evidence no Israeli shell was involved.

In answer to our Swiss friend,no: to my recollection there has never been a
direct vote by the American people on the questions of our relationship with Israel-any more than the Swiss people voted to retain control of judengelt hidden there by the Nazis.

We are a representative democracy. If our representatives do not please us,we remove them by electoral process : not instantly, but effectively.

Hope that answers your question !
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NumberTwelve
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
Israeli authorities say the chances are "one-in-a-billion" that she was hurt by an Israeli missile.

Cool, so do you also ask Saddam about his murders, Bush for the propaganda ("WMD in Iraq")? The Israeli authorities are a very weak source.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 12):
has been diverted to a discussion of US/Israel relationships

true, but NOT by me !
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
true, but NOT by me !

Not by me either! Wonder who did?  banghead 
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
Wonder who did?

I know who did it ......................., but why NOT discussing about it
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
Wonder who did?

I know who did it ......................., but why NOT discussing about it

You're right....I got trapped in the discussion, and should have extracted myself much earlier.
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windshear
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:07 am

As I see it, we are all persueing the truth about this no?

Israel has documented all of their shell strikes on video.
Maybe a military guy can explain, but Israel use unmanned drones for guidance and documentation of shell hits, I know that the US does the same.
The shells that has been in question clearly shows the shells hitting around 250 meters (aprox 800ft) from where the Palestinians claims it hit.

Now also this fact has arisen today:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265729,00.html

"I can unequivocally state that the shrapnel taken from the child injured in the Gaza beach incident is not a 155 millimeter shell," he said.

The child, Adham, is 12, and was brought to Israel after the incident, where he is hospitalized in the Soroka Medical Center in serious but stable condition.
The IDF took a piece of shrapnel from his body for a lab analysis. The army and the Palestinians have contradictory versions of who was responsible for the explosion, and the argument over who was responsible for the deaths of the family members continues to cause an international storm.


Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 18):
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265729,00.html

Your going to get it from our buddies for using a biased source!

When Al Jazeera reports it (Oh about the time hell freezes over, they raise the Titanic, or Hillary becomes President which ever comes first) it will be believed.
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windshear
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Par

Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 2):
It most likely was not Israeli artillery, but an RPG attack initiated by the Mossad agent posing as a Ghanaian football player.

Oh yeeeeaaah Big grin

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):

The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

That is so untrue!
Israel is the one under restraint by the US, not vice versa!
Do you remember when Bush first entered office? They told Israel the following after each suicide attack: Calm down, and do not retaliate something that enfuriated many Israelis, guess what changed the Bush administration's views??

I also remember my grand mother in Israel who struggled with her gas mask, because of the gulf war in '91, Israel was furious, but was asked to stay out, so they did.

Your emphasis is quite distorted, USA is the major player here, Israel is not, do not make it the other way around.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
windshear
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 19):

Your going to get it from our buddies for using a biased source!

When Al Jazeera reports it (Oh about the time hell freezes over, they raise the Titanic, or Hillary becomes President which ever comes first) it will be believed.

Yeah well Cairo thinks BBC is unbiased  Yeah sure What can you say?
I don't really care, I see Ynet as balanced, he might think otherwise because of his views, but Ynet is an Israeli media which is not owned, controlled or paid for by the Israeli government.

I think we should start making the same claims as "they" do, lets say if Cairo can call BBC unbiased, I can call FOX unbiased. Big grin

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:15 pm

The latest, apparently from Israeli sources originally, is that what exploded has been (may have been) a non-exploded dud-shell of a grenade fired onto the beach two or three years ago. Which now went off due to the many people now around. A tragic accident as a result of what otherwise are positive developments.
 
windshear
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Par

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):

Did you read the Ynet link I posted? The theory is in there as well.

Here is another thing today:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3266200,00.html

Justice Minister Haim Ramon tells Ynet 'accidents during battle happen to every superpower engaged in war on terror, but firing 40 Qassams a day on Sderot and trying to intentionally kill civilians is a war crime'

I mean how can the Palestinians fire into Israel, and not only that, but target civilian cities and especially the schools in the area?
The children in S'derot are traumatized beyond reasonable, their school is almost daily evacuated because of incomming Qassam rockets.

It is by pure "luck" that no children have died, seeing as many of the rockets have hit right smack in the school yard several times.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 23):
how can the Palestinians fire into Israel, and not only that, but target civilian cities and especially the schools in the area?
The children in S'derot are traumatized beyond reasonable, their school is almost daily evacuated because of incomming Qassam rockets.

It is by pure "luck" that no children have died, seeing as many of the rockets have hit right smack in the school yard several times.

-
it admittedly is outright disgusting. When considering to be in the place of the Israelis affected in such places, I can understand ........... . I suppose that the "authors" of these attacks still believe that the Israelis, when being sufficiently molested will one day "pack and leave". I remember to have had a "lively" discussions with two Israelis in 1994 who claimed that many of those Hamas people had such ideas and I said that to live so much "in the clouds" is not possible. The two gents unfortunately were proven right and I wrong, it IS possible !
 
windshear
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Par

Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
I remember to have had a "lively" discussions with two Israelis in 1994 who claimed that many of those Hamas people had such ideas and I said that to live so much "in the clouds" is not possible. The two gents unfortunately were proven right and I wrong, it IS possible !

I don't know why, but I can picture this in my head Big grin

Anyways ME AVN FAN, being realistic isn't always comfortable, it isn't always nice...

Many of the Palestinians are productive, and only really care about eating, sleeping and taking care of their families, but some act really crazy, like the time where the two IDF soldiers got torn apart by an angry crowd, I mean this is not normal, what ever level of anger you might have.

My cousin in Israel asked a Palestinian one day about why her 7 year old daughter was wearing a "Hijab" (vail), the mother said that she told her daughter that if she took it off the devil would come and take her father- so you see things in those areas are not always as "sane" or rational as some might think.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
cairo
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 19):
Your going to get it from our buddies for using a biased source!...When Al Jazeera reports it (Oh about the time hell freezes over, they raise the Titanic, or Hillary becomes President which ever comes first) it will be believed.

My sources are major mainstream news organizations in the west. You are the first to bring up Al Janeera, I believe.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 21):
Yeah well Cairo thinks BBC is unbiased

Any organization is biased to the pro-Israeli crowd if it reports the truth.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 21):
if Cairo can call BBC unbiased, I can call FOX unbiased.

BBC is a public entity supported through TV licensing taxes and governed by an independent board that rotates periodically.* There are no commercials and there are no Israeli interest groups influencing it or ALLOWED to bribe British politicians, as in America.

An independant study was conducted on the BBC's impartiality in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the results of which are here.**

Besides that, WHY WOULD THE BBC be BIASED? To Britain, like to America, the sides in this conflict are of NO PARTICULAR CONSEQUENCE either way to the economy or security of the nation.

Fox, and all US news organizations, are for-profit enterprises which take money from whoever spends it = pro-Israeli interests.

Please list the internationally recognized news organizations that are unbiased and I'll quote only them if we can agree on their identity. They should have independant verification that they are unbiased.

Only the pro-American side in this discussion regularly cites respected sources, the pro-Israeli side only posts what it WANTS DESPERATELY for the American taxpayer to believe. .

Cairo

* http://www.bbcgovernors.co.uk/
** http://www.bbcgovernors.co.uk/docs/rev_israelipalestinian.html
Do you think the Jerusalem Post or ANY American news source has an independant audit conducted as to their impartiality in this conflict????

[Edited 2006-06-22 19:55:45]

[Edited 2006-06-22 19:56:54]
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 26):
My sources are major mainstream news organizations in the west.

May I remind you of your previous statement?

I admit now that I look at it further that the lat 3 sources in my reply number 122 are partisan and therefore unreliable to the opposition.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 26):
Any organization is biased to the pro-Israeli crowd if it reports the truth.

yeah, right.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 26):
Fox, and all US news organizations, are for-profit enterprises which take money from whoever spends it = pro-Israeli interests.

Please back this up without quoting "the Protocols of Zion".

Quoting Cairo (Reply 26):
Only the pro-American side in this discussion regularly cites respected sources, the pro-Israeli side only posts what it WANTS DESPERATELY for the American taxpayer to believe.

Not true, if you don't like the story, it's biased.
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windshear
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Par

Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 26):
Any organization is biased to the pro-Israeli crowd if it reports the truth.

Err and vice versa no?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 26):

BBC is a public entity supported through TV licensing taxes and governed by an independent board that rotates periodically.* There are no commercials and there are no Israeli interest groups influencing it or ALLOWED to bribe British politicians, as in America...

Omph that gotta hurt  Smile

I am sorry, but the BBC quite openly changed their focus recently, and I disagree with much of their emphasis, they even posted the fake Mohammed cartoons to beef up the story, so yeah they have become much more biased than before, unfortunately...

It is like you are under the impression, that all the medias which supports your view of things, are pure or perfect, you should really think again, because as I have told you, some of the media you might agree with, also have an agenda, as shocking as that might sound to you.
Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
cairo
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 27):
May I remind you of your previous statement?

I freely admit when I make a mistake and/or when my sources are weak. Do the pro-Israelis? Since my country has no important interest in the outcome either way of this conflict I am looking for the truth, not a biased souce.

I change my mind from time to time on many issues: I don't pick a side and they stay with it even when the actual evidence is contrary to my original point of view; the team mentality here is a big problem.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 27):
Not true, if you don't like the story, it's biased.

I have never claimed that any news organization was biased except those in countries overwhelmingly supporting one-side in this conflict. The BBC, Deutsche Welle, AFP and even Xinhua news service report all kinds of stories that tend to favor the Israeli side - and I don't question them because their countries have no big interest in either side except to report the facts.

Besides that, I visit Israel regularly and force them to allow me in the occupied territories (which they hate to do for Americans since they are in such bad shape) and I don't rely 100% on news services, I rely on my own two eyes.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 28):
Err and vice versa no?

Not at all: see reply above. When reputable news organizations from countries not alligned to either side in this conflict (meaning news organizatiosn not from America, Israel or an Arab/Muslim state) write stories, - that is favorites being caused by Israeli or Arab/Muslim influence.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 28):
some of the media you might agree with, also have an agenda, as shocking as that might sound to you.

Well, I'll admit that is shocking. If they do have an agenda, I'ld like to hear what it is, preferably with cited sources indicating they have an agenda. But even if you can't find a reputable source that agrees with your opinion, go ahead and tell me what you think their agenda is, please, since it may affect my opinion on the matter. I'm always open to new evidence.

If the Palestinians "win" this conflict or if the Israelis "win" this conflict, it will have no effect on American interests in the region, which is only oil, therefore endangering the life of every American to terrorism for the sake of Israel is quite absurd.

Cairo
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 29):
If the Palestinians "win" this conflict or if the Israelis "win" this conflict, it will have no effect on American interests in the region, which is only oil, therefore endangering the life of every American to terrorism for the sake of Israel is quite absurd.

And what about the British and Spanish? Were their citizens killed for the sake of Israel?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cairo
Posts: 889
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 30):
And what about the British and Spanish? Were their citizens killed for the sake of Israel?

The backers of the Iraq invasion do pay their price.

Only those who use force against the Arab/Muslim world have anyting to fear from 'radical Islamic terrorism.'

Invading Iraq had found its biggest support among those who find Israel more important than America.*

Keep trying to argue that US/Israeli policy in the ME has nothing to do with terrosim against Israel and America, it makes you look smart.

I wonder why 5 Israelis were arrested and detained on September 11 unless they knew that terrosim blamed on Islam would be a great day for Israel? **

September 11 was to Israel what Pearl Harbor was to Britain - a justification for America to get involved in a war the American people did not previously support.

Cairo

* http://www.netanyahu.org/con1.html
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_237.shtml
http://www.amconmag.com/10_7/the_road_to_folly.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040628fa_fact
** http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1102-07.htm
http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/...sraelis_Detained_Sept_11_Spies.htm
I am citing ABC news here.

http://www.sundayherald.com/37707

"Numerous classified docuements obtained by Fox news indicate that even prior to September 11, as many as 140 other Israelis had been detained or arrested in a secretive and sprawling investigation into suspected espionage by Israelis in the United States."
Fox Special Report with Brith Hume
December 11, 2001
Available on the Lexis-Nexis system; email me for transcript if interested
partial transcript here
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/houston44.htm
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0142.htm
...an apologist for the Fox News report above
http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a028.htm

I deplore websites such as
http://www.nowarforisrael.com/
, but it is hard to argue that Israelis are anything but spies on America:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/27/eveningnews/main639143.shtml
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/jonathanpollardisrael6490428.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/680110/posts

also interesting
http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:22 pm

This thread went way off track . . . .

I haven't read a damn thing in part 2 about Palestinian Explosives . . . .

Just Cairo's constant bitching about US foreign policy relating to Israel . . . .

 scratchchin 

Seems to me this thread should be locked and archived . . . it's no where near on topic.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
rjpieces
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:59 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
Seems to me this thread should be locked and archived . . . it's no where near on topic.

Well as far as I'm concerned, it's already been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the IDF was not to blame. MEAVNFAN and Cairo keep twisting their words but it is clear who was responsible here.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 31):
September 11 was to Israel what Pearl Harbor was to Britain - a justification for America to get involved in a war the American people did not previously support.

Uh huh. And how do Americans remember Pearl Harbor?...As a giant wakeup call that the United States needed to pursue a more active role in the world. The same exact thing can be said about September 11.

And in both cases, a "special relationship" was solidified. With Britain, it remains today. With Israel, it is stronger than ever if measured by political support and polls of the population (and don't go posting your Zogby polls, most polls are consistent in showing American support of Israel as a solid majority).
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cairo
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
and Cairo keep twisting their words but it is clear who was responsible here.

For the 3rd time I have never said one word about who is responsible for the beach incident except to say that it is impossible for me to know.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
and don't go posting your Zogby polls,

I know, you hate it when I post the painful fact that Americans outside of your NYC-centric world care more about America than Israel.

I prefer to post sources, unlike those who just have agendas without backup.

I make up my mind based on the facts, and when they change or new facts come to light, I sometimes change my mind....the pro-Israeli crowd just has made up their mind that Israel is more important than America and that facts indicating otherwise are irrelevant.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
Seems to me this thread should be locked and archived . . . it's no where near on topic.

Then don't read it. How does it possibly hurt you?

This is the 3rd time in this thread those who don't like it when facts are posted have tried to squelch further peaceful discussion. If I was posting endless mental masturbation about the power and greatness of the US military you'd have no problem going on to 500 posts.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
American support of Israel as a solid majority

Sure, in the pro-Israeli world where 41 percent is a solid majority.*


Cairo

* http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mideast_poll020409.html
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 34):
I know, you hate it when I post the painful fact that Americans outside of your NYC-centric world care more about America than Israel.

Again with your NYC-centric crap after posting in the last thread how support for Israel is a Republican issue and is mainly a Southern, conservative thing...Does that sound like NYC to you?

So what degrees were those again?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cairo
Posts: 889
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 35):
your NYC-centric crap

Where are you from?

America and the free world don't need "friends" that spy on them like Israel.*

Cairo


* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3896009.stm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/27/eveningnews/main639143.shtml

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9A0DEFDF1539F93AA35752C0A960948260

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 35):
So what degrees were those again?

who cares
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 36):
America and the free world don't need "friends" that spy on them like Israel.*

You're link is about a Mossad agent arrested in New Zealand?

"New Zealand jails Israeli 'spies'"

Quoting Cairo (Reply 34):
* http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da....html

Your source:
Far fewer Americans — 9 percent — sympathize more with the Palestinian Authority, down from 14 percent in October.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 36):
Where are you from?

I'm in the Mid-west!


Cario,

It's really special of you to supply links and sources, but do you ever read through them before you post them.

Sometimes it is as if you just read the first line, and think it will justify your case, or do expect people not to read them?
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rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 36):
Where are you from?

Like 8 million other people; I call New York City home. I go to school in Washington DC so I must perfectly fit your Jewish conspiracy model!

But just for kicks, I'll remind you that out of the President, Vice President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State, none of them comes from NYC and yet all are pro-Israel...Conspiracy ehhh?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 36):
who cares

Well you boasted about it, so clearly you cared enough to post it. Now I'm curious. If you're embarassed about saying what school you actually went to for some reason, at least tell us the degree.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Par

Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:07 am

As Ancflyer suggests this has gone way off track, but what the hell... Big grin

Quoting Cairo (Reply 29):
Well, I'll admit that is shocking. If they do have an agenda, I'ld like to hear what it is, preferably with cited sources indicating they have an agenda. But even if you can't find a reputable source that agrees with your opinion, go ahead and tell me what you think their agenda is, please, since it may affect my opinion on the matter. I'm always open to new evidence.

Shocking?? How is that shocking??

Contrary to what many in the ME would think, Denmark has quite an substantial overweight (subjective assesment) of left-winged even our state run news station is far from balanced, that is seen from my perspective ofcourse, as well as our liberal government for that matter.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 29):
If the Palestinians "win" this conflict or if the Israelis "win" this conflict, it will have no effect on American interests in the region, which is only oil, therefore endangering the life of every American to terrorism for the sake of Israel is quite absurd.

By the wayl I have a sister living in the US, and I do also have other family ties there as well, so now am I acting out against the best interests of the US?
I cannot see your connection between supporting Israel and direct terror links, honestly. And what ever you might think, it is still the terrorists that are the sole problem, when it comes to terror, not Israel, and just think of it, having terrorist threats scare you or make you abandon an allied, doesn't sound reasonable.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
cairo
Posts: 889
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 37):
It's really special of you to supply links and sources, but do you ever read through them before you post them.

Sometimes it is as if you just read the first line, and think it will justify your case, or do expect people not to read them?

I read evey link I post.

I don't expect anyone from the pro-Israeli side to reach much, no, because they aren't interested in facts and hate when you post them. They START with the conclusion that Israel deserves US aid and are interested only in evidence towards their ideal. I start with the evidence and then make coclusions based on facts.

But, I have to say I respect and appreciate that YOU take at least some time to look into facts against Israel reported in the mainstream media which I post.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 38):
Like 8 million other people; I call New York City home

In America, one of the biggest predictors of one's political outlook is their physical location. Add this to their education, their occupation and their religious background and one can predict their political outlook correctly 90% of the time. Where one grew up is a very important aspect of why a person believes the way you do.

Grow up here and see how many people give one flying shite about Israel, the Palestinains or anything 7000 miles from home.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 38):
Now I'm curious.

Email me privately and we can talk more about personal things like this if you like.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 39):
Denmark has quite an substantial overweight (subjective assesment) of left-winged even our state run news station is far from balanced,

Fine, it is left wing, I accept that and probably many people do.

But,how does being left wing affect their view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? This is really very interesting and despite the fact that you probably hate me, I'll hope you can answer at least this.

Cairo

[Edited 2006-06-23 23:02:17]

[Edited 2006-06-23 23:04:13]
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 29):
Besides that, I visit Israel regularly and force them to allow me in the occupied territories (which they hate to do for Americans since they are in such bad shape)

As far as I'm concerned, they didn't let an American through. They let somone who is firmly in the camp of those who want to destroy, instead of build, through. Anyone who supports those who are the anthesis of freedom, is not an American.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
As far as I'm concerned, they didn't let an American through

The child mind responds primarily by attacking the individual personally when they can't win on the issue.

Many of us Amiericans who put America before Israel fight to end the Israeli campaign to kill Palestinian civilians and children.


Cairo
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 42):
The child mind responds primarily by attacking the individual personally when they can't win on the issue.

The side I'm on wins the issues, dude. I don't stand on the side of those who spit on freedoms that we've won through a lot of shed blook over 250 years; I don't stand on the side of those who would destroy an entire nation, simply because they can't grow up, get rid of their hate, and make peace; I don't stand on the side of those who deliberately blow up civilians-even young children, to further a cause that is lost.

You do all those. In my mind, because of the issues, I have every sensible right to say that I don't believe you're a true American. I believe it sincerely. And you can call me those infantile names all you want, Cairo. You have forfeited your right to be an American, simply because you support those that are the anthesis of this nation.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cairo
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:42 pm

The definition of a traitor is one who puts a foreign country's interests above their own. Americans who put Israel before America are wrong because Israel has:
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 44):
The definition of a traitor is one who puts a foreign country's interests above their own. Americans who put Israel before America are wrong because Israel has:


Well I say gladly:
I'm a traitor, I'm a traitor......I can't wait to get my bumper stickers and t-shirts printed....oh wait, I picked those up at last weeks Zionist Meeting of American Jews tasked with overtaking the American Government!

Proud American Mid-Western Liberal who supports the state of Israel.

PS...your links are horseSh*&T....I've debunked them already two or three times.

[Edited 2006-06-24 14:56:34]

[Edited 2006-06-24 14:57:43]
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AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 44):
The definition of a traitor is one who puts a foreign country's interests above their own.

Perhaps you need a new dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/traitor

One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/treason

1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 44):
The definition of a traitor is one who puts a foreign country's interests above their own. Americans who put Israel before America are wrong because Israel has:

Seems to me you meet your own definition, Cairo. After all, you're putting the interests of the Palestinians before those of the United States. You support those who are the anthesis of what freedom is supposed to stand for. You don't seem to mind the murders of innocent people from a nation that is friendly with the United States.

I do support Israel's right to exist. You act like that's a crime. I think it IS in America's best interest to support that nation, as it's the only nation in the region that is a democratic society, and that's always something the U.S. should support.

So, again, you can call me what you want. The fact is your very words, and whom you support defines you that way far more than it ever would me, which I find quite offensive.

After all, I'm not the one with the Egyptian flag by my name.

You, again, are supporting groups and people who want to destroy freedom, not nurture it. To me, that tells me you're not an American in any sense of the word.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 46):
Quoting Cairo (Reply 44):
The definition of a traitor is one who puts a foreign country's interests above their own.

Perhaps you need a new dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/traitor

One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/treason

1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

In the words lies the truth about you, Cairo.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 38):
President, Vice President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State, none of them comes from NYC and yet all are pro-Israel...Conspiracy ehhh?

it is rumoured that the second father of Ms Rice is of Jewish origin, and Mr Rumsfeld is rumoured to be of partially Jewish origin, while the VP is rumoured to be in favour of business for his "former" company-- all rumours of course

Quoting Windshear (Reply 39):
Denmark has quite an substantial overweight (subjective assesment) of left-winged even our state run news station is far from balanced, that is seen from my perspective ofcourse, as well as our liberal government for that matter.

you mean "moderate right-wingers + pro-xenophobia government" ?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 47):
After all, you're putting the interests of the Palestinians before those of the United States. You support those who are the anthesis of what freedom is supposed to stand for.

suppose he realizes that the interests of the USA are taken care of by a rather large country --- and the Palestinians are NOT "antithesis of freedom" but freedom for the Palestinians, the unalienable rights of the Palestinian people for their homeland on Palestinian territory is what freedom and justice is all about

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 47):
not the one with the Egyptian flag by my name.

and what is negative about the Egyptian flag ?
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
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RE: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2

Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 48):
it is rumoured that the second father of Ms Rice is of Jewish origin, and Mr Rumsfeld is rumoured to be of partially Jewish origin, while the VP is rumoured to be in favour of business for his "former" company-- all rumours of course

And what a great place for rumours the internet is!
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