TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:05 am

Inspired by: W Tries To Re-write The Constitution Again. (by TedTAce Jun 24 2006 in Non Aviation)
and W.'s other apprently unconstitutional orders (spying on our phone records, spying on our banking records). I have to wonder; When will he try to sign an executive order banning gay marriage, civil unions, and anything else his right wing puppeteers deem necessary for the GOP good.??
This space intentionally left blank
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
When will he try to sign an executive order banning gay marriage, civil unions, and anything else his right wing puppeteers deem necessary for the GOP good.??

Why, I don't mean to be rude but I always thought you would agree with that idea?
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay

Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Why, I don't mean to be rude but I always thought you would agree with that idea?

No. I would like to say that even if I was anti-gay rights, I'd have a problem with W. continuing to trample the constitution. The problem is if I didn't believe in gay rights I'd be someone totally diferent then who I am* and who knows what I'd believe.

*I am a straight contentedly married male with children. I grew up next door to a gay man who while very imperfect, was not a bad person. He and his friends gave me insight as to what being gay was about; so I have an appreciation for what I believe to be that fact of MOST homosexuals are born gay.
This space intentionally left blank
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
W.'s other apprently unconstitutional orders (spying on our phone records, spying on our banking records). I have to wonder; When will he try to sign an executive order banning gay marriage, civil unions, and anything else his right wing puppeteers deem necessary for the GOP good.??

First of all, there is no clause in the US Constitution for any right to privacy. Go, ahead and read the Constitution, it isn't there. Nor, is the phrase "seperation of church and state". The Constitution is only about 4500 words, it doesn't take long to read.

Second, the phone records are not yours, they belong to the phone company, so does "your" phone number. The records are not private, only the phone conversations are. Those conversations have not been listened to (unless you are a terrorist).

Third, the same goes for banking records, the bank owns them. You only have rights to your money, not the records. These transactions that are looked at only involve international wire transations. So, unless you are wiring money to someone who is doing terrorist or illegal things, you have nothing to worry about.

Fourth, the President and most Republicans could care less about gay marrages, or civil unions.

This is going to be a fun election year.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):

Fourth, the President and most Republicans could care less about gay marrages, or civil unions.

Its what got W elected last time around.
Step into my office, baby
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Its what got W elected last time around.

But, it was not an issue he campained for, or against.
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Fourth, the President and most Republicans could care less about gay marrages, or civil unions.

What do you live under a rock?
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):

Fourth, the President and most Republicans could care less about gay marrages, or civil unions.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Wake up and smell the bullshit from your own party. Honestly...go out of the country a few weeks ago?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
But, it was not an issue he campained for, or against.

Are you that naive? How many times did he come out in support of a constitutional amendment 'protecting' the 'sanctity' of marriage. WAKE UP.

And you also want a theocracy apparently? Oh boy, we've got a real winner here.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
ilikeyyc
Posts: 1326
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:09 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
First of all, there is no clause in the US Constitution for any right to privacy. Go, ahead and read the Constitution, it isn't there. Nor, is the phrase "seperation of church and state". The Constitution is only about 4500 words, it doesn't take long to read.

You are right about the right to privacy. The only thing that comes close in the Constitution is the 4th amendment which protects against unreasonable sear hes and seisures.

The phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is found in the First Amendment of the Constitution and means the same thing as "seperation of church and state."
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Its what got W elected last time around.

No, he got elected in part because so many people did not understand why he got elected in 2000. It is the same reason a Republican might get elected in 2008.

Ask any liberal why GWB 'won' the election. Keep a list of their reasons. This is very important because every single one of them will be dead wrong. I mean just about 180 out! Ask some conservatives and you might get part of the reasons. Fact is, most rank-and-file Republicans don't give a damn about gay marriage OR abortion. Best you'll get out of liberals is "why do you rednecks in the flyover states think he is so wonderful? Hint: We don't. (But we might resent being categorized as rednecks and our chosen homes as 'flyover' states.)

Biggest reason: He didn't win. Kerry just lost bigger.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
satx
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay

Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Those conversations have not been listened to (unless you are a terrorist).

Pollyanna folks like you are why the US ended up with a guy like Bush.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:08 pm

You need to listen to normal American's phone calls in order to determine WHO the terrorists are, right? How many innocent Americans must be eavesdropped upon in order to find just one terrorist? 10,000? If we already KNOW they are terrorists, why not simply bust them rather than eavesdrop on their phonecalls? Makes no sense at all.

My phone and bank records are MINE, not the company's. The bank financials and SEC filings are theirs and I have no right to them. Records of my deposits and withdrawals, investments and holdings are mine and mine alone. The only response you can give (as always) is "if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about"....which is complete bollocks.

My personal records could have been looked at by the government 30 years ago, but why weren't they? Much crime could be solved before it happens by looking at people's personal records well in advance of the fact. Back then it was largely unthinkable to transgress the principles our country was founded upon. Now however (post 9-11) it seems anything goes to stop the dreaded terrorists...worse yet there are still a rather large group of cheerleaders who type their posts with one hand while flipping the channel back to FAUX news with the other.
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 8):
The phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is found in the First Amendment of the Constitution and means the same thing as "seperation of church and state."

I would quibble here and say that it has been interpreted to mean this - not exactly the same thing.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
Biggest reason: He didn't win. Kerry just lost bigger.

So true!

Quoting SATX (Reply 10):
Pollyanna folks like you are why the US ended up with a guy like Bush.

Probably more accurate to say that the Democrats put up another really lousy candidate, i.e. previous stinkers like Dukakis and Mondale. In the interest of equal time, we'll throw in Dole as the poster boy for a bad candidate on the Republican side.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 12):
Dole as the poster boy for a bad candidate on the Republican side.

Dole was a patsy.
This space intentionally left blank
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 10):
Pollyanna folks like you are why the US ended up with a guy like Bush.

Well, in 2000, the choices were Bush or Gore. Gore was to far out in left field for many Americans. So, he lost, in Florida, by a hanging chad. Gore did win the popular vote, but lost in the electorial college. In 2004, the choices were Bush or Kerry. Kerry voted for the war before he voted against it, did you know he served in Vietnam? Bush got the highest number of popular votes of any Presidential Candidate, ever, and 4.5M more than Kerry, including more than 135,000 more than Kerry in Ohio.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 11):
You need to listen to normal American's phone calls in order to determine WHO the terrorists are, right?

No, all you need first is the called number and the calling number, then you get your warrant to listen.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 11):
My phone and bank records are MINE, not the company's. The bank financials and SEC filings are theirs and I have no right to them. Records of my deposits and withdrawals, investments and holdings are mine and mine alone.

No, they are not YOUR records. The phone companies and banks own those records. You are correct about the SEC filings. But the IRS ruled many years ago that deposits, withdrawals, investments, and holdings records belong to the bank, you own the assets, that is how the IRS can seise your assets.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
so I have an appreciation for what I believe to be that fact of MOST homosexuals are born gay.

I believe that "Gay" is a learned lifestyle, as is the "Straight" lifestyle.
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
Ask any liberal why GWB 'won' the election.

He won the election because the Democrats cannot run a candidate who has more charisma than a broken twig. Even if the Dems did have a candidate with charisma, the problem is that the campaign manager and the consultants tell the candidates to rail against Bush's policies while not offering any ideas of their own. It ends up sounding like the Dems are just a bunch of whiny sore losers who have no ideas of their own and not enough smarts to figure out how to solve anything.

What the Democrats need is someone who presents solid ideas, explains why we can do things instead of complain about how some things cannot be done, and come out with logical responses that contradict what the Republican strategists say but without sounding extreme. Words and looks often make the difference in a campaign, and so far the Republican strategists have dominated on catchphrases and, honestly, look more appealing than the recent Democratic candidates. And those two things go a long way with regular voters.

And that is what at least this liberal (not Democrat) thinks  Smile

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 11):
My phone and bank records are MINE, not the company's. The bank financials and SEC filings are theirs and I have no right to them. Records of my deposits and withdrawals, investments and holdings are mine and mine alone.

No, they are not YOUR records. The phone companies and banks own those records. You are correct about the SEC filings. But the IRS ruled many years ago that deposits, withdrawals, investments, and holdings records belong to the bank, you own the assets, that is how the IRS can seise your assets.

What then would they own if I chose not to open an account, deposit money to it or withdraw from it. Is there anything left to own?

I see your point....and it is a very bad thing that we, the people, allowed them (the unconstitutional IRS) to make these things officially "theirs" by default. That enabled them to sieze without a warrant or due process of law. Snuck that one in on us while we were sleeping.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
What then would they own if I chose not to open an account, deposit money to it or withdraw from it. Is there anything left to own?

If you don't open an account, than nothing exsist to own. Well, maybe the unassigned account number is still theirs. But, if you do open an account, all you own is the money.

Quoting Texan (Reply 15):
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
Ask any liberal why GWB 'won' the election.

He won the election because the Democrats cannot run a candidate who has more charisma than a broken twig. Even if the Dems did have a candidate with charisma, the problem is that the campaign manager and the consultants tell the candidates to rail against Bush's policies while not offering any ideas of their own. It ends up sounding like the Dems are just a bunch of whiny sore losers who have no ideas of their own and not enough smarts to figure out how to solve anything.

What the Democrats need is someone who presents solid ideas, explains why we can do things instead of complain about how some things cannot be done, and come out with logical responses that contradict what the Republican strategists say but without sounding extreme. Words and looks often make the difference in a campaign, and so far the Republican strategists have dominated on catchphrases and, honestly, look more appealing than the recent Democratic candidates. And those two things go a long way with regular voters.

And that is what at least this liberal (not Democrat) thinks

Very well said.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Inspired by: W Tries To Re-write The Constitution Again. (by TedTAce Jun 24 2006 in Non Aviation)
and W.'s other apprently unconstitutional orders

Glossing over the fact that your characterization in the referenced thread about Bush violating the Constitution with the Kelo order was completely inaccurate, he will no doubt do exactly what his predecessors have done during the waning months of their administrations - enact as many EO's as they possibly can, in order to tie the hands of their successor.

No big deal. If he enacts an EO that is clearly unconstitutional, it will be overruled.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Adam T.
Posts: 796
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 7:01 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
so I have an appreciation for what I believe to be that fact of MOST homosexuals are born gay.

I believe that "Gay" is a learned lifestyle, as is the "Straight" lifestyle

Could you elaborate further? I'd like to hear your reasoning on why you came to this conclusion.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12395
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:53 am

Yea, well this week's Republican/Bush cause to bash Democrats and make the Republicans look good and cover up their diseased state is to try again with a Constitutional Amendment to ban 'USA Flag Burning'. All Democrats will have to vote for this bit of foolishness as if they don't vote for it, they will be beaten at the next election.
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
Yea, well this week's Republican/Bush cause to bash Democrats and make the Republicans look good and cover up their diseased state is to try again with a Constitutional Amendment to ban 'USA Flag Burning'. All Democrats will have to vote for this bit of foolishness as if they don't vote for it, they will be beaten at the next election.

Yep. It is brilliant political strategy by the Republicans. I absolutely hate it and wish they would not do it as it cheapens the society and further infringes on our freedom of speech, but the Republicans do pick good, divisive causes that rile up a base of voters who oftentimes in the past would not bother to get off their asses to cast a vote. There will be protest votes for Democrats of course, but not as many as will be gained by this utterly despicable maneuver.

The Dems actually used to be pretty good at this as well until someone came along and cut out the party's balls. Now they do not stand FOR anything, they merely stand AGAINST whatever the Republicans are for. It is very hard to win an election when you are on the defensive and cannot be for anything.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 21):
The Dems actually used to be pretty good at this as well until someone came along and cut out the party's balls. Now they do not stand FOR anything, they merely stand AGAINST whatever the Republicans are for. It is very hard to win an election when you are on the defensive and cannot be for anything.

two weeks ago I voted in the Virginia Democratic primary. In Virgina, you can cross over party lines during a primary election, and since I'm an independent, I usually vote where the race is most interesting.

Anyway, upon leaving, I was given a card by the Prince William democrats urging me to become active in the party. It had 10 "core values" of the democratic party. At the bottom of the list was "maintaining a strong national defense", and in the middle of the list, the lame call for "ensuring economic justice for all."

And they wonder why people like me left the party....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
I believe that "Gay" is a learned lifestyle, as is the "Straight" lifestyle.



Quoting Adam T. (Reply 19):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
so I have an appreciation for what I believe to be that fact of MOST homosexuals are born gay.

I believe that "Gay" is a learned lifestyle, as is the "Straight" lifestyle

Could you elaborate further? I'd like to hear your reasoning on why you came to this conclusion.

KC135, I have a lot of respect for most of your other opinions, but here is were we diverge greatly. I'm guessing that most of your life was spent with homophobic military types who's only real experience with gay people is what they read in their pornography late at night with a flashlight. Now you might countner with 'oh you have met with gay people', and you still have that opinion.

The problem here is that casual business type relationships give you NO insight into the homosexual mindset. Especially if your experience is with flaming queens who slap their homosexuality in your face. Here is what I suggest you do: Spend a solid day with a gay person who understands you are hetero and want to understand gay people so social liberals like me don't call you a homophobic relic. I garantee that if you spend 24 hours just hanging out with a gay person you'll have a much better understandng of what's going on upstairs in most gay people's minds.
This space intentionally left blank
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 23):
KC135, I have a lot of respect for most of your other opinions, but here is were we diverge greatly. I'm guessing that most of your life was spent with homophobic military types who's only real experience with gay people is what they read in their pornography late at night with a flashlight. Now you might countner with 'oh you have met with gay people', and you still have that opinion.

The problem here is that casual business type relationships give you NO insight into the homosexual mindset. Especially if your experience is with flaming queens who slap their homosexuality in your face. Here is what I suggest you do: Spend a solid day with a gay person who understands you are hetero and want to understand gay people so social liberals like me don't call you a homophobic relic. I garantee that if you spend 24 hours just hanging out with a gay person you'll have a much better understandng of what's going on upstairs in most gay people's minds.

the gay "lifestyle" isn't learned. You are born that way, period. Just like most of are born heterosexual.

I come from a family where I am one of about 30 cousins. We all grew up within 10 miles of each other - most closer - and were together at numerous family gatherings, almost every month, it seemed. One of my male cousins is gay, as is one of my female cousins. We knew both of them were "different" even befpre we know what "gay" and "homo" stood for. Both of them have straight brothers and sisters, and were in no way "coached" by anyone to become gay.

The whole idea is absurd.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):
I come from a family where I am one of about 30 cousins. We all grew up within 10 miles of each other - most closer - and were together at numerous family gatherings, almost every month, it seemed. One of my male cousins is gay, as is one of my female cousins. We knew both of them were "different" even befpre we know what "gay" and "homo" stood for. Both of them have straight brothers and sisters, and were in no way "coached" by anyone to become gay.

The whole idea is absurd.

Brilliant point!
This space intentionally left blank
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 25):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):
I come from a family where I am one of about 30 cousins. We all grew up within 10 miles of each other - most closer - and were together at numerous family gatherings, almost every month, it seemed. One of my male cousins is gay, as is one of my female cousins. We knew both of them were "different" even befpre we know what "gay" and "homo" stood for. Both of them have straight brothers and sisters, and were in no way "coached" by anyone to become gay.

The whole idea is absurd.

Brilliant point!

Thanks, but it's just common sense, IMHO.

What I don't understand is why people get their panties in a wad about it. As long as your gay next door neighbor keeps his sexual escapades to himself and his partner, why is it a matter for anyone else to consider?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 23):
Quoting Adam T. (Reply 19):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
so I have an appreciation for what I believe to be that fact of MOST homosexuals are born gay.

I believe that "Gay" is a learned lifestyle, as is the "Straight" lifestyle

Could you elaborate further? I'd like to hear your reasoning on why you came to this conclusion.

KC135, I have a lot of respect for most of your other opinions, but here is were we diverge greatly. I'm guessing that most of your life was spent with homophobic military types who's only real experience with gay people is what they read in their pornography late at night with a flashlight. Now you might countner with 'oh you have met with gay people', and you still have that opinion.

The problem here is that casual business type relationships give you NO insight into the homosexual mindset. Especially if your experience is with flaming queens who slap their homosexuality in your face. Here is what I suggest you do: Spend a solid day with a gay person who understands you are hetero and want to understand gay people so social liberals like me don't call you a homophobic relic. I garantee that if you spend 24 hours just hanging out with a gay person you'll have a much better understandng of what's going on upstairs in most gay people's minds.

I have no problems with the Gay lifestyle, as long as they don't put it in my face. Nor, would I ever put my Straight lifestyle in their face. I have no real interest in whatever anyone does within their private lives. I may or may not work with Gays, I simply don't know, nor do I see it as any of my business.

Hang out with a Gay person may or may not tell me anything. All people interact with each other, usually on differing levels. Even having an intellegent discussion on the pros and cons of being Gay or Straight can be an educating experience. But, I do not see Gay and Straight people as different people. Their choice on sexual prefence has nothing to do with me, as I said, it really is none of my business, nor is my prefence any of their business.

The part I do not understand is the Gay Rights issue. Don't Gay and Straight people all have the same rights, in the US? Marrage is a completely different discussion. Side issues to marrage is what I believe the Gay lifestyle really wants. I have no problems with these. I see these as spouse/partner health insurance, wills, decision making for death arrangements, social security and tax benifits, adoptions, etc. But, marrage issues also include things like divorce, and having children, and I have never heard these issues brought up by Gays.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):
the gay "lifestyle" isn't learned. You are born that way, period. Just like most of are born heterosexual.

I come from a family where I am one of about 30 cousins. We all grew up within 10 miles of each other - most closer - and were together at numerous family gatherings, almost every month, it seemed. One of my male cousins is gay, as is one of my female cousins. We knew both of them were "different" even befpre we know what "gay" and "homo" stood for. Both of them have straight brothers and sisters, and were in no way "coached" by anyone to become gay.

The whole idea is absurd.

No, it is a learned experience. The gene that some thought a few years ago that made some people Gay and others Straight, turned out to be wrong. Babies are not born to be Straight or Gay. There is nothing that biologicaly makes a person one way or the other. Humans are capable of learning everything that is going to decide their life, including their sexual prefence. BTW, I don't see Gays as "different". They are really the same, biologically, as you or me. They simply chose a different path in life than I did. I also have Gay relitives, although the distances we lived apart were much greater than your family was, so I didn't grow up with them as you did with your family. But, you cannot speak for every experience of your cousins, so you really don't know if they were coached or not.

I believe that some people have personalities that can be more easily persuaded than others. Does this help "recruit" people into the Gay lifestyle? I don't really know, I am not a Doctor.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
No, it is a learned experience. The gene that some thought a few years ago that made some people Gay and others Straight, turned out to be wrong. Babies are not born to be Straight or Gay. There is nothing that biologicaly makes a person one way or the other. Humans are capable of learning everything that is going to decide their life, including their sexual prefence

Care to provide any scientific support for this assertion? I'd be interested in reading it, because everything I've read suggests otherwise.

Until she came to grips with the fact that she wasn't going to be able to change her sexual orientation, my lesbian cousin was miserable being a lesbian.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
But, you cannot speak for every experience of your cousins, so you really don't know if they were coached or not.

I lived close enough to my cousins to get a pretty good sense of how they were raised. And as I mentioned above, my lesbian cousin was absolutely miserable at being lesbian. She contemplated suicide at one point.

Why would she voluntarily learn a sexual preference if it made her miserable?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
No, it is a learned experience. The gene that some thought a few years ago that made some people Gay and others Straight, turned out to be wrong. Babies are not born to be Straight or Gay.

You didnt read todays papers did you?

"Sexual orientation of men determined before birth"

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...ENTATION-MEN-DETERMINED-BEFORE.xml
Step into my office, baby
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:55 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
I have no problems with the Gay lifestyle, as long as they don't put it in my face. Nor, would I ever put my Straight lifestyle in their face.

If you believe in such things as the 'gay lifestyle' and 'straight lifestyle', that is your first problem.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
But, I do not see Gay and Straight people as different people

Just people with totally different lifestyles.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
But, marrage issues also include things like divorce, and having children, and I have never heard these issues brought up by Gays.

You must not look around very often.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
No, it is a learned experience.

Ok, Doctor, Shrink, whatever title you would like to give yourself, just how the hell would you know? This really gets me. The stubborness and inability of you and your type to simply admit that you really dont know, have experience with, or can relate to this discussion. It's ok to not know things for sure, really. Wake up and smell the truth, don't kid yourself, you know nothing. Total ignorance, total arrogance to think that you do.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
I believe that some people have personalities that can be more easily persuaded than others. Does this help "recruit" people into the Gay lifestyle? I don't really know, I am not a Doctor.

Oh really, well about time you came to that conclusion! Really, the recruitment, yeah. People like you make me absolutely sick. I find you disgusting.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 28):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
No, it is a learned experience. The gene that some thought a few years ago that made some people Gay and others Straight, turned out to be wrong. Babies are not born to be Straight or Gay. There is nothing that biologicaly makes a person one way or the other. Humans are capable of learning everything that is going to decide their life, including their sexual prefence

Care to provide any scientific support for this assertion? I'd be interested in reading it, because everything I've read suggests otherwise.

Until she came to grips with the fact that she wasn't going to be able to change her sexual orientation, my lesbian cousin was miserable being a lesbian.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
But, you cannot speak for every experience of your cousins, so you really don't know if they were coached or not.

I lived close enough to my cousins to get a pretty good sense of how they were raised. And as I mentioned above, my lesbian cousin was absolutely miserable at being lesbian. She contemplated suicide at one point.

Why would she voluntarily learn a sexual preference if it made her miserable?

I will not make any attempt to explain your cousins choices. You may live close to her, but you didn't spent every minute of every day with her, so you also cannot speak of every experience she ever has.

But there is plenty of scientific material, including on the web that support the learned lifestyle and the biological theroies of why someone is Gay, or not. Do your own research. But, your mind is already made up, based on your own family experience. That is fine, I do not believe it is biological. I do respect your opinions, I simply believe a different one. We can debate both. But, I doubt we will change the others opinion. Debate is a healthy thing.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 29):
"Sexual orientation of men determined before birth"

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...E.xml

Mt99, did you read the story? It does say the study was of 944 straight and gay men. It does not say how long the study was conducted. One year? 2 Years? 2 Minutes? The story does say that this is one THEORY.
"If this immune theory were correct, then the link between the mother's immune reaction and the child's future sexual orientation would probably be some effect of maternal anti-male antibodies on the sexual differentiation of the brain," he suggests.

Depending on who you talk to, Gays represent somewhere between 4% and 12% of the US population. But even using the 12% number, how come 88% of male fetuses are not effected by the mothers immune system?

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 30):
Ok, Doctor, Shrink, whatever title you would like to give yourself, just how the hell would you know?

I am not, nor have I ever professed to be a doctor, of any type. How do I know? I read alot, both sides of the issues. Then I make an educated decision based on the material I have read.


Now for everyone. Simply because I do not support the Gay lifestyle, does not make me a bigot. I do not have a personal grudge against any Gay person. I respect their personal beliefs, opinions, and choices. These are simply not my personal beliefs, opinions, or choices. This is no different than choising to drive a Ford or a Chevy, or be a Democrate or Republican, or believe in God, or not. Some of you are on one side of this issue, and I am on the other side. I like a health debate, but it looses it's value when remarks like JpetekYXMD80 are made, based on disagreements.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
Mt99, did you read the story? It does say the study was of 944 straight and gay men. It does not say how long the study was conducted. One year? 2 Years? 2 Minutes? The story does say that this is one THEORY.

What does the number of poeple have to do with it? (ever taken an statictics course?)

What does time have to do with it?

I dont understand your concern.
Step into my office, baby
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
Simply because I do not support the Gay lifestyle, does not make me a bigot.

Wow, here we go again. You just dont get it. What the hell is the 'gay lifestyle' !?!?!?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
I like a health debate, but it looses it's value when remarks like JpetekYXMD80 are made, based on disagreements.

No, you're wrong. I'll tell you when it loses value. It loses value when someone with zero credibility or even first hand knowledge of the subject makes a factual (not opinionated) claim for God knows what reason.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
No, it is a learned experience.

How do you justify that? You just cant. Now stop pretending to know shit.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
The story does say that this is one THEORY.

While that is only a theory, no way can it compare to your ironclad assessment founded on your theory of because i said so!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
I read alot, both sides of the issues. Then I make an educated decision based on the material I have read.

Whoa buddy, thats how you form an opinion or take a side, not discover scientific truths.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
No, it is a learned experience. The gene that some thought a few years ago that made some people Gay and others Straight, turned out to be wrong. Babies are not born to be Straight or Gay. There is nothing that biologicaly makes a person one way or the other. Humans are capable of learning everything that is going to decide their life, including their sexual prefence. BTW, I don't see Gays as "different". They are really the same, biologically, as you or me. They simply chose a different path in life than I did. I also have Gay relitives, although the distances we lived apart were much greater than your family was, so I didn't grow up with them as you did with your family. But, you cannot speak for every experience of your cousins, so you really don't know if they were coached or not.

Thats just a bunch of shit, and you know it.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
I will not make any attempt to explain your cousins choices. You may live close to her, but you didn't spent every minute of every day with her, so you also cannot speak of every experience she ever has.

You are right - I didn't spend every minute of every day with her. But I know that while she was in her 20's, she was absolutely miserable being a lesbian. Why would she learn and adopt a behavior that made her miserable?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
But there is plenty of scientific material, including on the web that support the learned lifestyle and the biological theroies of why someone is Gay, or not. Do your own research.

I did do my own research. While there is indeed a wealth of material supporting the theory that homosexuality is a leaned behavior, a large proportion of those articles are religiously oriented/based and lacked any rigorous scientific examination.

From a pure scientific viewpoint, the issue of biological v. learned is not resolved - in favor of either theory.

Here's what the American Psychiatric Association says about the issue:

Quote:
What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

I understand that for most if not all of organized religion, homosexuality is a difficult issue to deal with. I would never suggest that someone who has a profound religious belief that homosexuality is wrong or immoral ought to be forced to abandon that belief. If conservative Christians was to believe that homosexuality is a sin against God, I respect their decision.

They just shouldn't expect to mandate that our secular culture follow those religious beliefs.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
User avatar
PA110
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:44 am

Oh for F*$& sake TOPBOOM,
You go to great lengths in each of your posts to refer to "lifestyle" and "choice". As a gay man, I can tell you I had absolutely no choice, and do not consider my existance a lifestyle. Why would I willingly face rapant discrimination from neanderthals like you if I had a choice? Futher, your defense of the latest report smacks of the sterotypical behavor of most of your kind when faced with scientific studies... Not enough study, not a wide enough sample, not a valid study, blah blah blah... just like climate change - only now some of the neanderthals are discovering that the rocks they're living under are starting to get pretty damn hot. "Oh, gee, I reck'n there must be someth'n to that earth warming thingee they're always yammerin about on that there television".

What a total tool you are!
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 35):
As a gay man, I can tell you I had absolutely no choice, and do not consider my existance a lifestyle.

Yeah but even though you're gay and can talk about your own experiences, I know better.

Signed,
KC135TopBoom
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
adh214
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:07 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
Nor, would I ever put my Straight lifestyle in their face.

Actually straight people put their "Lifestyle" in our faces all of the time. They are constantly talking about their girlfriends and children. If you look carefully almost all men will make some attempt when you first meet them try to point out that they are straight. In most cases, it goes like this "Hi my name is John and this is my wife, girlfriend Suzie." In other cases, it is "Hi my name is John. Did you see the football game last night? That cheerleader really had a great rack." It is really quite amusing.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
Don't Gay and Straight people all have the same rights, in the US?

Not really, If my partner and I buy health insurance together through his employer, we have to pay income taxes on it while straight married couples at the same company do not.

BTW, this is no small amount of money. We would pay about $1200 a year in additional "gay" taxes on the health insurance. Is this fair?


Andrew
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 34):
I did do my own research. While there is indeed a wealth of material supporting the theory that homosexuality is a leaned behavior, a large proportion of those articles are religiously oriented/based and lacked any rigorous scientific examination.

From a pure scientific viewpoint, the issue of biological v. learned is not resolved - in favor of either theory.

Here's what the American Psychiatric Association says about the issue:

Quote:
What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

I do not read releigious or Gay group material. One side is just as slanted as the other. But, I have read the APA material, and it says (in part using your material), as you pointed out "Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse." So, there is no current evidense for, or against a biological reason someone is, or is not Gay.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 34):
I understand that for most if not all of organized religion, homosexuality is a difficult issue to deal with. I would never suggest that someone who has a profound religious belief that homosexuality is wrong or immoral ought to be forced to abandon that belief. If conservative Christians was to believe that homosexuality is a sin against God, I respect their decision.

They just shouldn't expect to mandate that our secular culture follow those religious beliefs.

I agree with that.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 35):
Oh for F*$& sake TOPBOOM,
You go to great lengths in each of your posts to refer to "lifestyle" and "choice". As a gay man, I can tell you I had absolutely no choice, and do not consider my existance a lifestyle. Why would I willingly face rapant discrimination from neanderthals like you if I had a choice? Futher, your defense of the latest report smacks of the sterotypical behavor of most of your kind when faced with scientific studies... Not enough study, not a wide enough sample, not a valid study, blah blah blah... just like climate change - only now some of the neanderthals are discovering that the rocks they're living under are starting to get pretty damn hot. "Oh, gee, I reck'n there must be someth'n to that earth warming thingee they're always yammerin about on that there television".

What a total tool you are!

Neanderthal? Sterotype? So, are we reverting to calling someone, who has differing and valid opinions, names? This is the same tactic Democrates use against Republicans. But, I'll just call you my internet friend who has a different opinion than mine.

Now, global warming is a totally different subject. Most people know the Earth has gotten warmer since around 1850, or so (by about 5 degrees F, or 2.1 degrees C). The only real debate I see there is, is the cause of the climate change a result of man, or is this part of the Earth's natueral cycle?

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 36):
Yeah but even though you're gay and can talk about your own experiences, I know better.

Signed,
KC135TopBoom

Well, JpetekYXMD80, just to put the record straight, those are your words, not mine. If it is PA110, you are talking about, I don't personally know the man. I have to take his words as fact, for him. He knows what happened, or did not happen to him. I don't, I only know my personal experiences, and why I chose my lifestyle. BTW, I never sign my posts, my name clearly appears at the top of each one.

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 37):
Actually straight people put their "Lifestyle" in our faces all of the time. They are constantly talking about their girlfriends and children. If you look carefully almost all men will make some attempt when you first meet them try to point out that they are straight. In most cases, it goes like this "Hi my name is John and this is my wife, girlfriend Suzie." In other cases, it is "Hi my name is John. Did you see the football game last night? That cheerleader really had a great rack." It is really quite amusing.

You are right Adh214, I just never saw it that way.

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 37):
Not really, If my partner and I buy health insurance together through his employer, we have to pay income taxes on it while straight married couples at the same company do not.

BTW, this is no small amount of money. We would pay about $1200 a year in additional "gay" taxes on the health insurance. Is this fair?


Andrew

I believe I already said that I support equil taxes, wills, health insurance, etc. These issues should be no different for those in a Gay Partnership, or what ever term is used today, or a traditional marriage. So, to answer your question, no it is not fair.

Here is what I wrote in reply 27.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):
Marrage is a completely different discussion. Side issues to marrage is what I believe the Gay lifestyle really wants. I have no problems with these. I see these as spouse/partner health insurance, wills, decision making for death arrangements, social security and tax benifits, adoptions, etc. But, marrage issues also include things like divorce, and having children, and I have never heard these issues brought up by Gays.

So, Andrew, the inequities of you paying taxes on your health insurance, and those in a traditional marriage not paying them, is wrong, in my opinion. No, it is not fair. It is my understanding this varies a lot from one state to another, foor state income taxes. But, I believe you are talking about federal income taxes. Many in Congress (may) agree with you and me, these inequities are wrong, but they won't change the tax laws.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
Well, JpetekYXMD80, just to put the record straight, those are your words, not mine.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
BTW, I never sign my posts, my name clearly appears at the top of each one.

No really? It's called a 'signed-by post', and I don't know how you could walk a step around non-av without seeing loads of them.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 39):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
Well, JpetekYXMD80, just to put the record straight, those are your words, not mine.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 38):
BTW, I never sign my posts, my name clearly appears at the top of each one.

No really? It's called a 'signed-by post', and I don't know how you could walk a step around non-av without seeing loads of them.

I know what it is, and why it is there. But, just to make things clear, to even an 18 year old ,like you, I was talking about the post script signature block, you put in using my screen name.
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:10 pm

From today's (Sunday July 9) Non Sequitur. Thought it was relevant. Enjoy!

Non Sequitur

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
nitrohelper
Posts: 406
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:32 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 33):
Wow, here we go again. You just dont get it. What the hell is the 'gay lifestyle' !?!?!?

I don't know either, but GWB said that he heard it was "a pain in the ass" ? grumpy 
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: W.'s Constitutional Escapades.. What Next? Gay...

Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
It had 10 "core values" of the democratic party. At the bottom of the list was "maintaining a strong national defense", and in the middle of the list, the lame call for "ensuring economic justice for all."

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Ensuring Economic Justice? WTF????

Nice spin on the democrat/communist mantra of taxing people who are willing to work and giving it to lazy people who want the goverment to take care of themselves.

Ensuring Ecnomic Justice sounds like a form of economic slavery to me!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests