Concorde001
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We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:06 am

Today has been a weird day.

I wouldn't regard myself as a flag waving patriot, but something happened to me today, something that has compelled me to post this message.

All day I have been reading depressing articles in the Sunday papers, all suggesting that the Union is at threat because of various reasons. On the one hand, some articles suggested that an increasing number of Scots disliked the English. On the other hand, some articles said there is an English backlash against Scots because of the unfairness resulting from devolution. More recently, the articles talked of resentment arising from recent news that a child wearing an England shirt in Edinburgh, and a disabled man waving an England flag in Aberdeen were assaulted.

BUT then I read this article:
Kenny Farquharson heads south and finds warmth and affection for Scots

While reading the article I suddenly smiled.

I know that there are problems with the constitutional arrangement in the United Kingdom, but I just wanted to say that I love Scotland and am very fond of Scots. If England were not participating in the world cup and Scotland were instead, I would gladly display the Saltire from my window and support Scotland all the way. I am proud to be English, very proud to be British and incredibly proud that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. (I feel the same about other home countries too).

Anyone feel the same?



 
mhodgson
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:08 am

I like Scotland too - My grandfather is Scottish (gives me a vested interest, I suppose!), but as a country the people are great, and it is a lovely place. I suppose 5 weeks of hatred every 2 years isn't too bad  Smile
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Scotty
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Thread starter):
Anyone feel the same?

Er.....no.

I love Scotland. I support four football teams and as none of them are in the World Cup, I watch it dispassionately and think that Brazil are the best team in the competition. My neighbour has an English flag at his window but as he is English, he is entitled to fly it. No problem. English people are welcome in Scotland, just as I was when I lived in England, and dont let any gutter media tell you otherwise.

But the only thing British about me is my passport. I believe the UK is coming to an end and that the only way out of the current constitutional mess is for the island of Great Britain to become home to two states - Scotland and the rest of GB (assuming Wales wants to stay in).

I love England also, I love visiting England and I have some great English friends. I believe I know more about the country than many English people I know.

But culturally and socially, whilst the nations of the British Isles will always be interlinked and we will always be pals, the UK as a political entity harbours iniquity one way or another, previously towarads Scotland and now towards England. Indeed, one writer was arguing today that England is now the largest stateless nation in Europe. And indeed it is. You have no parliament of your own, no government - only a football and a rugby team to represent you and people in England are now coming to terms with the reality that "Britain" doesn't mean them.

Overall, the UK has had its day and will come to an end soon. It is getting in the way of the countries developing a mutual respect and admiration for each other and the only ones espousing "Britishness" are failed Labour dinosaur politicians such as Gordon Brown who is seeing his glorious reign as British PM slowly disappearing over the horizon even before it starts. Meanwhile, Cameron ahs caught the mood of the nation and is proudly flying his England flag on his bike.

So please fly your St. George's Crosses, and we will fly our Saltires. But the Union Flag is past its sell by date and whilst England and Scotland will always share the island, the way forward is as two states respecting each others sovereignty, but with a the right to do things the way they want rather than the way some Whitehall mandarin tells them to.
 
777236ER
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting Scotty (Reply 2):
But culturally and socially, whilst the nations of the British Isles will always be interlinked and we will always be pals, the UK as a political entity harbours iniquity one way or another, previously towarads Scotland and now towards England. Indeed, one writer was arguing today that England is now the largest stateless nation in Europe. And indeed it is. You have no parliament of your own, no government - only a football and a rugby team to represent you and people in England are now coming to terms with the reality that "Britain" doesn't mean them.

But there isn't really any argument here as to why Scotland should become a separate nation. Your argument seems to be more that England should devolve from the UK, not Scotland.

Despite what you claim, the evidence suggests there isn't much support in Scotland for independence. In the 2005 General Election the SNP won a whopping 6 seats - 17.7% of the Scottish vote, the lowest since 1987.
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legoguy
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:20 am

All of us british formula one fans were happy to see the great Scotsman, David Coulthard pull a great overtaking stunt on the British Jenson Button near the end of the Canadian Grandprix  Smile
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fumanchewd
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:23 am

I agree. Without Scotland we would have crappy tape. 

[Edited 2006-06-26 01:24:14]
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IFEMaster
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:57 am

I doubt Scotland could support itself economically. I can't back up that statement.

So, should Scotland declare itself independent, I wonder if all those English who live in Scotland would then become illegal immigrants.

Interesting conundrum.
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ba747yyz
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:27 am

Quoting Scotty (Reply 2):
So please fly your St. George's Crosses, and we will fly our Saltires. But the Union Flag is past its sell by date and whilst England and Scotland will always share the island, the way forward is as two states respecting each others sovereignty, but with a the right to do things the way they want rather than the way some Whitehall mandarin tells them to.

Would it be a safe assumption that you vote for the Scottish national party? Scotland and England are better off together than apart, and if the people of Gibraltar don't want to separate and neither do the Falklands than the Scottish probably don't feel like it either. You are no where close to Independence! Quebec has had two referendums and their independence party is a lot for successful than Scotland's. Good Luck but it will never happen, because I think people on both sides don't want it to happen. And the Scottish are getting a good ride, as it is. Plus Northern Ireland hasn't split and they had the IRA. Scotland has no resources or will to split. Even the flags show this which flag looks the best and most powerful: the union jack, which just shows together is better in this case.
 
Scotty
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Your argument seems to be more that England should devolve from the UK, not Scotland. Maybe English people are happy that we can have a say in their country but they cant in ours? Some "Union"

Exactly. Why should Scottish MPs be able to influence like in England in areas where they have no say over what goes on in their own country?

Quoting BA747YYZ (Reply 7):
Scotland has no resources

Apart from North Sea Oil which has bankrolled the UK Exchequer for 30 years, more tidal and wind power potential than most other countries in the EU and a strategic location in the North Atlantic which gives it jurisdiction over a fairly large chunk of territorial waters. Oh and we are also the reluctant home for the UK's soon to be renewed fleet of Trident nuclear ICBM subs, which we really dont want but its a lot safer putting them here than up the Thames.

Quoting BA747YYZ (Reply 7):
You are no where close to Independence!

Pro- independence parties form around 85% of the opposition in the Scottish Parliament. Watch this space n May 2007.
 
Scotty
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:06 pm

Quoting Scotty (Reply 8):
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Your argument seems to be more that England should devolve from the UK, not Scotland. Maybe English people are happy that we can have a say in their country but they cant in ours? Some "Union"

Sorry - misquited you there because of the technology going a bit skwiffy. You didnt say

Maybe English people are happy that we can have a say in their country but they cant in ours? Some "Union"

I did! Apologies!
 
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nighthawk
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:19 pm

An interesting article there. I have to agree that it is a strange arrangement whereby the Scottish MPs can vote on English matters, and fully support the move to change this.

As you probably know, I am all in favour of independence for Scotland, and will vote for it next year. The UK is no longer required, its time the union was put to rest. As it stands the Scottish parliament has a lot of power, but there are still a few issues wish are governed from London. Why not just move all powers to Edinburgh and us control our own destiny?

A large proportion of the Scottish people want independence, and hopefully they will vote for such a move in the elections. I doubt such independence would have much an effect on england and its economy, so hopefully if enough people vote for it, we will get it.

As for scotland surviving on its own, I dont see why not. Last time I looked the UK had a budget defecit, and was running up a national debt. Scotland on its own would initially struggle, however with rising oil prices the natural resources in the north sea would provide a decent income. Additionally as a new entrant to the EU we would be entitled to similar funding which poland latvia etc is currently recieving. This would tide us by for a few years while the economy establishes itself.

When devolution was granted, the economy in Scotland (and particularly Edinburgh) boomed as companies moved into the city and established a headquarters there. With independence we would see a similar boom, as more major companies move in and establish a scottish head office.

You would also see a boom in employment as the government establishes itself and sets up various government bodies, we would need our own embassies abroad as well as associated foreign affairs committies, plus many other government departments would be needed to oversee the running of the country. The increase in status of Scotland would fuel the economic boom as scotland establishes itself better on the international stage.
 
vc10
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:56 pm

If Scotland went their own way then perhaps the British Government would bring home all those Tax offices which were positioned in Scotland to improve employment. I do hope so as then I will be able to understand them when I phone them.

I am sure also that the new independent Scotland will change its name to
Gaelic name and will also do away with all that false culture that was invented for them by the English during their romantic period.

Right I am off before the war begins  box 

littlevc10
 
777236ER
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:15 pm

Let's just have a bit of a look at the finances of Scotland, shall we?

£34 billion was generated in tax in Scotland in 2003-04. The government spent £45.3 billion. This leaves a gap of £11.3 billion. Even if you include every last penny of oil revenue from the North Sea (£4.3 billion), there's still a £7 billion gap.

So, Scotland, by all means become independent. Us Englanders would much rather have the extra £7 billion of our money spent on us. Of course, a few dozen closed hospitals and schools, lower social security, less public transport, less police and less armed forces will be a reality in the new independent Scotland, but the idea of independence is far more comforting than pesky reality, isn't it?
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cornish
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:20 pm

We love the Scots !!






Apart from Kirkie and Gordon Brown obviously  Wink
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gkirk
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:34 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
Apart from Kirkie and Gordon Brown obviously

Gordon Brown is a bloody Englishman anyway. We disowned him the day he said he'd be supporting England.
Anyway, aye, Scottish MPs shouldn't have a say in English matters
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cornish
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:42 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 14):
Gordon Brown is a bloody Englishman anyway.

No he's not !  grumpy 

You don't want to claim him, we don't want to claim him - shall we say he's Welsh ??  Wink
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
gkirk
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:48 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 15):
You don't want to claim him, we don't want to claim him - shall we say he's Welsh ?? Wink

Or even worse, American  stirthepot  duck 
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mhodgson
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:14 pm

Perhaps he could be granted Isle-of-Man citizenship - thats where we send the people nobody wants, right?  duck 
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gkirk
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 17):
thats where we send the people nobody wants, right?

Also a valid point...  duck 
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MYT332
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:20 pm

I got to watch the England vs Ecuador match yesterday in Scotland with a bunch of Scots, imagine that...

Suffice to say, they hate us!
One Life, Live it.
 
gkirk
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 19):
I got to watch the England vs Ecuador match yesterday in Scotland with a bunch of Scots, imagine that...

Suffice to say, they hate us!

Meh, was too busy drinking to watch that crap  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
skidmarks
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:09 pm

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 17):
Perhaps he could be granted Isle-of-Man citizenship - thats where we send the people nobody wants, right?

You're on very slippy ground there sonny jim!!  grumpy 

I have nothing against the Scots. The country is grand, the Malt whisky the only drink and the majority of folk are among the nicest in the world. However, the ones that continually rant about the English, who blame everything on the English and who view anyone not Scottish in Scotland as "White Settlers" do nothing to endear the place to anyone! And, might I add, make themselves look narrow minded and blinkered.

I also agree that the Scots and Welsh MP's should have nothing to do with parliamentary decisions which affect the English.

However, since I live on the Isle of Man and am closer to Scotland than England, have an independant (thats a joke) parliament and a much nicer, quieter lifestyle than you mainlanders, I really couldn't care less who screws the English/Scots/Welsh/Northern Irish!  stirthepot   duck 
Ah well, back to work. Big grin

Andy  old 
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Concorde001
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:42 pm

Britishness has not failed and the Unite Kingdom has not failed. But I take your point that if something is not done, it probably will in the long term. My view is that there are two types of Scots who want independence.

On the one hand you have Scots who always have, and always will demand Scottish independence. Even when Scotland boomed in the 19th century, and Glasgow became one of the richest cities in the world, (both attributable to the Union and Empire), there were Scots who demanded independence.

On the other hand, you have Scots who do not necessarily dislike the Union, or being British, but are slowly coming to the view that independence may be the answer to Scotland's problems. Well what are Scotland's problems?

Firstly the Scottish economy is lagging behind. Many Scots want to know why it is that England is booming, and Scotland is not. Indeed, they want to know why isn't Scotland reaching its potential? This is the country that lead the world in the 18th and 19 centuries intellectually, scientifically and economically. They look to England and they see another picture. In reality, they are looking at London and the South East.

The problems Scotland face are the same problems northern English cities and Wales face. For all the regeneration in central Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and other cities, go to the outer regions of those cities and the problems they face are exactly the same faced by Scotland - industrial decline, rigid labour market, high unemployment and those who are employed are employed in the public sector. For example, Newcastle and Scotland have a similar percentage of people employed in public sector - both over 50%.

The fact of the matter is that the British economy has over the past 30 years run by London and the South, and governments past and present have not done much to change this. This problem is further exacerbated by the country's institutions, and the way the country is run. Things need to change, and in my view Britain needs a radical review of how it is run, politically and economically. I think a federal system, not on based on the borders of the home nations, but perhaps on larger county, or in London's case city borders could work. Real power, and I mean real power to decide local taxes, local business taxes, investment could give a kick start to Britain's regions. Look at Germany. Yes the country is facing economic problems, but it is still the world's largest exporter. German business is still providing good results. Apart from the east, which is still integrating, the western German States have their own economic centres. In Bavaria look at Munich. In Hesse look at Frankfurt. In Baden-Württemberg look at Stuttgart. I could go on.

I really think it would be a shame if the United Kingdom split up. 300 years of history, most of it glorious, and yes some of it shameful. But in those 300 years, England and Scotland together with the rest of Britain made the modern word. Yes there are problems, and yes I agree politicians of all colours have done little to give back Scotland, the north England and Wales the lease of life they require. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Britain united is far more stronger and then it is split. I know there is talk of Scotland losing out without England, but I would also say England would lose alot without Scotland.

Also what exactly are the SNP offering the Scottish people? Yes with independence Scotland will have full control over fiscal and monetary policy, but only for a short while. They would be the first to hand over Scottish control on these matters to Brussels/Frankfurt as they want Scotland to join the Euro. Also, European Commission President Jose Manuel Borosso has already suggested that European tax harmonisation may be the key to making the Euro work more effectively.

Yes there are problems, but Britain should stay together
 
vc10
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:02 pm

Concorde001

It is not often you get on a.net a clear and thought out reply like yours,so well done . I am not sure I agree with all say especially about the South of England, where there are for sure some very rich people whose wealth in such a small area distorts everything for those who are not so lucky.
All you hear around here is the call to spread the employment around the country, but more offices and houses just keep on getting built so ruining the area  cry 

littlevc10
 
skidmarks
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:17 pm

They whinge about a water shortage in the South East, but as you say, all they do is build more and more houses with little or no thought for the infrastructure. They remove the flood plains and over-use the aquifers. And these people are "the Professionals!"

If I still lived there it would almost be worth moving to Scotland. At least they don't appear to have the same moronic attitude to housing.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
cornish
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 24):
They whinge about a water shortage in the South East, but as you say, all they do is build more and more houses with little or no thought for the infrastructure. They remove the flood plains and over-use the aquifers. And these people are "the Professionals!"

By they are you referring to the likes of Yorkshireman John Prescott and his dumb policies ??  Wink

But yes that is a joke, but as much to do with migration to the South east building up a demand for new homes....

And anyone who has lived in a house built by the likes of Barrett, etc would hardly refer to them as "the professionals"  Wink
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
gkirk
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 25):
But yes that is a joke, but as much to do with migration to the South east building up a demand for new homes....

Who'd want to live in SE England anyway? I would think it resembles a rough part of Liverpool.
I suppose that's perfect for the Chavs amongst us *cough*Banco*cough*  stirthepot  duck 
 Wink
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Concorde001
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting VC10 (Reply 23):
It is not often you get on a.net a clear and thought out reply like yours,so well done

Thank you.

Quoting VC10 (Reply 23):
I am not sure I agree with all say especially about the South of England, where there are for sure some very rich people whose wealth in such a small area distorts everything for those who are not so lucky.

I agree, things are tough for those not on high salaries in the South. People n Newham, Hackney, Peckham Tower Hamlets, or even those living in Surrey on less than 25k a year have it hard. Just look at the house prices! What I was trying to say is that on the whole, the South is pretty affluent. The reason why London is such an expensive city to live in (and I know) is because there is so much wealth around pushing up prices (but in terms of homes, it is low supply of houses). If you go to the City of London, you can see the power of London. The Square Mile is full of banks, financial houses, you name it making millions. I remember reading an article in Time Magazine which said, "Deutsche Bank may be headquartered in Germany, but all the big decisions are made in London".

Go out of London, towards Reading up the M4, and you can see Britain's own silicon valley. The number of hi-tech firms located there are huge. If we look at jobs in the South in general, they are more plentiful and generally high salaried. I know graduates who have had multiple job offers, all paying above £20k in a period of six months. 90% of those jobs were in the private sector. The cost of living may be horrendous, but the economic environment in the South is the reason why alot of people move here. Where my brother works, there is a graduate who has just moved down from Scotland. Why? He said it would be difficult for him to earn a starting salary of £26k in Scotland. . Scotland and the northern cities have potential, but it is not being released. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown love to remind us how low unemployment is in Britain. But they never mention the 1.5 million, mainly in Wales, north England and Scotland who are out of work on the claimant count. Nine years in power and very little has been done to change this.
 
skidmarks
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 25):
And anyone who has lived in a house built by the likes of Barrett, etc would hardly refer to them as "the professionals

I was referring to the water companies Big grin Barrets are just a bunch of enthusiastic amateur crooks.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
gkirk
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 28):
Barrets are just a bunch of enthusiastic amateur crooks.

Strange, you could say exactly the same about Cornish  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
cornish
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 29):
Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 28):
Barrets are just a bunch of enthusiastic amateur crooks.


Strange, you could say exactly the same about Cornish

No no, I get paid quite handsomely to do my dodgy work - enthusiastic professional crook please  Wink
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Concorde001
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Scotty (Reply 8):
Pro- independence parties form around 85% of the opposition in the Scottish Parliament. Watch this space n May 2007.

You can do anything with statistics.
Put another way, pro Union parties have 85 seats out of the 129 seats in the Scottish Parliament. With Lab and Lib Dems in coalition, that leaves the Conservatives the only pro-Union party in opposition. So of course 85% of opposition is pro-independence!

But considering the low turnout in the last Holyrood elections, 49%, we can't say these results are a ringing endorsement for the Union or independence. People are probably sick of party politics, like most people in Britain!
 
planespotting
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:05 pm

All I know about the England/Scotland relationship comes from Mark Renton's rant in the movie Trainspotting

It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched miserable servile pathetic trash that was ever shat on civilization. Some people hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to get colonized by. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a shite state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and all the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!

good movie!
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
ba747yyz
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Scotty (Reply 8):
Apart from North Sea Oil which has bankrolled the UK Exchequer for 30 years, more tidal and wind power potential than most other countries in the EU and a strategic location in the North Atlantic which gives it jurisdiction over a fairly large chunk of territorial waters. Oh and we are also the reluctant home for the UK's soon to be renewed fleet of Trident nuclear ICBM subs, which we really dont want but its a lot safer putting them here than up the Thames.

I meant resources for Independence not natural resources where you are right they out number England in terms of that

Quoting Scotty (Reply 8):
Pro- independence parties form around 85% of the opposition in the Scottish Parliament.

Key word: Opposition!
 
Scotty
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RE: We English Actually Love You Scots!

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 19):
Suffice to say, they hate us!

No they dont - those idiots who have had a go at people for flying English flags or whetever are roundly condemned by all Scots who are perfectly happy to have English people up here supporting their team. Banter is one thing, thuggery is another and not accetable. Those idiots should be locked up.

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 22):
independence may be the answer to Scotland's problems

It may also be the answer to some of England's problems.

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 22):
But in those 300 years, England and Scotland together with the rest of Britain made the modern word

True - and many other countries besides. But the past is the past and the future may be different.

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 31):
People are probably sick of party politics, like most people in Britain!

Couldn't agree more. Let's get back to Airliners and fitty!!

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