krisyyz
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Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:43 am

And it’s about time….

After the Second World War, Canada had one of the biggest militaries in the world. Today its equipment is pretty much a joke compared to other G8 and NATO countries.

I hate Canada’s new conservative government. But I must give them credit for thing that they have done up till now. The mandatory minimum for criminal offenses and the investment towards Canada’s military.

Today the Canadian government announced the contract for 3 armed supply ships which will also carry 2 helicopters and have numerous defensive weapon systems. These ships may also be built to serve as a amphibious assault ship. This week, Canada will announce the procurement of new heavy lift helicopters, medium and heavy transport planes.

Canada also recently added:

CH-148 Cyclone- (Sikorsky H92 Superhawk) Maritime, ship-born helicopter meant as a replacement for the Sea Kings. CAF orders 28, first being delivered 2008

CH-149 Cormorant (EH-101) SAR operations, CAF has 15 of them

Some more info:

” The government is expected to unveil a $1.1-billion plan for new army trucks. That promise will be made in Quebec, the CBC's French-language service reported last week.
That same report said an official announcement about helicopters will come on Wednesday in Edmonton. The government is expected put out to tender for 15 new helicopters at a cost of about $4.2 billion.
Finally, on Thursday at CFB Trenton in Ontario, the government is expected to announce a competition worth $4.6 billion to replace Canada's aging fleet of Hercules aircraft, some of which date back to the 1960s.
The Conservatives are also promising to buy at least four C-17 transport planes, which are massive heavy-lift aircraft, at a cost of $3 billion.”


http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1959
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...l/2006/06/26/defence-spending.html


KrisYYZ
 
MattRB
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:52 am

Such a difference between a government that says it's going to do things and a government that actually does do things.

This 'spending spree' has been a long time coming and is long overdue.

 thumbsup  to the Conservative government.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
aerobalance
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:17 am

Where's the pic of Canada's Naval Force when you need it?...
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
pelican
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 2):
Where's the pic of Canada's Naval Force when you need it?...

http://www.code7r.org/Bintoons/canadian_navy.jpg

pelican
 
ANother
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:13 am

And Canada is going to need those amphibious assault ships to invade ...

Search and rescue, fine - upgrade and replace those ships/helis etc, but lets face it Canada is not a world power and you don't need the capability of invading anyone, other than PEI.

(Born & Bred in BC, living overseas)
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:25 am

Nevermind.. I see you changed your flag :P

[Edited 2006-06-26 23:51:12]
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:48 am

Its hardly a spending spree, just undoing some of the decline of the past 40 years. Amphibious assault ships have a mean sounding name, but in Canada's case they are highly unlikely to be used going it alone in an invasion. They offer better security and availabilty compared to commercial ocean freight for the Canadian military's needs. Don't you remember a few years ago when the CF had to board a ship transporting their LAVs back from the Balkans, as the owners refused delivery asking for more money?

Canada has not always been a nation with a weak military, the decline started in the mid 1960s. After WWII, Canada was the third largest naval power. In the 1950s, Canada had hundreds upon hundreds of F-86s and CF-101s. Don't even get me started on the CF-105.

[Edited 2006-06-26 23:50:33]
 
travelin man
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
The Conservatives are also promising to buy at least four C-17 transport planes, which are massive heavy-lift aircraft, at a cost of $3 billion

Good news for the C-17 line at LGB. I know they're looking for more orders fom the USAF to keep that line alive beyond the initial order. Hopefully other governments will take a look at the capabilities of that plane as well.
 
LY744
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
Today its equipment is pretty much a joke compared to other G8 and NATO countries.

That may be popular perception but it's not necessarily true.


And someone may want to airbrush the U.S. Coast Guard markings off that tub with the 50.  Yeah sure



LY744.
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MattRB
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 6):
Don't even get me started on the CF-105.

Never should've cancelled it.
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
I hate Canada’s new conservative government. But I must give them credit for thing that they have done up till now. The mandatory minimum for criminal offenses and the investment towards Canada’s military.

How can you hate the government but like what they have done? Although I admire you for admiting that you're impressed with them so far.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 1):
Such a difference between a government that says it's going to do things and a government that actually does do things.

This 'spending spree' has been a long time coming and is long overdue.

thumbsup to the Conservative government.

I agree, it's about time we spent money on those that serve this country!
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
LY744
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 6):
Don't even get me started on the CF-105.

Oh please. If the program wasn't cancelled we would have still been stuck with those things. They would have been useful for a grand total of about 5 years.


LY744.
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 11):
Oh please. If the program wasn't cancelled we would have still been stuck with those things. They would have been useful for a grand total of about 5 years.

They advanced technology, it was stupid to cancel them, there could have been planes that spun off of it. And at the time, did people know that they would have been useful for only 5 years?
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
LY744
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RE: Canada�s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 12):
there could have been planes that spun off of it

Who are you kidding? This is Canada we're talking about.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 12):
And at the time, did people know that they would have been useful for only 5 years?

But we sure do now. So let's act appropriately.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 11):
They would have been useful for a grand total of about 5 years.

How short sighted can you possibly be? Do you really think that the engineerws at Avro Canada couldn't come up with a design suited to the changing air force's needs? I somehow doubt that the Avro Arrow would be retired in 5 years. Even seen the airplane depicted below?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ryan Fletcher



Pretty useless as a fighter but still has found itself a job for almost 40 years now.

The cancellation of the Arrow forced the departure off a large part of Canada's best aeronautical engineering, never to see it return.
 
L-188
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 11):
Oh please. If the program wasn't cancelled we would have still been stuck with those things. They would have been useful for a grand total of about 5 years.

Don't forget the engine was canceled too, and the French had already has selected it to power their new Mirage fighters. When it was canceled the French had to develop the ATAR-9 engine.

How much do you think Canada would have benifited if they had powered all the Mirage's that have been built?

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 14):

Pretty useless as a fighter but still has found itself a job for almost 40 years now

And if I recall the CF-105 had an internal weapons bay the same size as a B-29. Don't tell me that wouldn't have made a great strike aircraft.

Seriously, it is nice that Canada is now starting to take care of there big problems. Anybody else remember about 5 years ago when that ship comming back from Bosnia refused to dock because the broker had taken off their the crews pay? Only 10% off all of Canada's armoured vheicles where on it at the time......I think they crashed a Sea King going after that boat too.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 10):
I agree, it's about time we spent money on those that serve this country!

It would be better if they spent that money in country......Can imagine the aviation industry that Canada would have had if Diffenbaker hadn't castrated Avro Canada?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
dl021
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
I hate Canada’s new conservative government. But I must give them credit for thing that they have done up till now. The mandatory minimum for criminal offenses and the investment towards Canada’s military.

Why do you hate them if they're doing something positive? That makes zero sense to me. Could you enlighten us without taking it off topic (or start a thread about this in NonAv?).

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
CH-148 Cyclone- (Sikorsky H92 Superhawk) Maritime, ship-born helicopter meant as a replacement for the Sea Kings. CAF orders 28, first being delivered 2008

That was probably in response to the increasing accident rate and decreasing servicability rate of the existing Sea King fleet.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
CH-149 Cormorant (EH-101) SAR operations, CAF has 15 of them

That program was a disaster in procurement. They cancelled an order for purely political reasons and paid the penalties (hundreds of millions) then re-ordered the aircraft, having to take some of the desired equipment off because they wasted the money allocated for that in penalties.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 1):
Such a difference between a government that says it's going to do things and a government that actually does do things.

No kidding. Since a government is going to take heat for doing as well as not doing I'd say it's better to get things done. It seems the previous government was ok with neglecting the military since they could not decide what to do that would not irritate some of their base.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 1):
This 'spending spree' has been a long time coming and is long overdue.

I'd say 'spending spree' indicates an irresponsible shopping excursion....they went and initiated direly needed procurement programs for equipment their military needs.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 10):
How can you hate the government but like what they have done? Although I admire you for admiting that you're impressed with them so far.

Good point.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
krisyyz
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Why do you hate them if they're doing something positive? That makes zero sense to me. Could you enlighten us without taking it off topic (or start a thread about this in NonAv?).

I'm a Liberal, not to say I'm a member of the Canadian Liberal party but that is where I stand on the political spectrum. I strongly disagree with the social initiatives of the Conservative government. However I support Mr. Harper so far on the Crime and National defense policy. I'm not going to dismiss the positive actions of a government/party just because I'm against their general view of what Canada should be like.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
That program was a disaster in procurement. They cancelled an order for purely political reasons and paid the penalties (hundreds of millions) then re-ordered the aircraft, having to take some of the desired equipment off because they wasted the money allocated for that in penalties.

agreed. They ordered 50 or 60 EH101 to replace the Sea Kings, the new government cancelled the order and waited until the Sea Kings started to fall out of the skies, literally!! They ordered 15 "off the shelf" versions for SAR, now they are thinking about repainting some og the CH-149s and using them for combat heavy lift duties, what a mess!

KrisYYZ
 
yooyoo
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:49 am

While we are at it, lets get the Snowbirds new planes.  Wink
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northstardc4m
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 11):
Oh please. If the program wasn't cancelled we would have still been stuck with those things. They would have been useful for a grand total of about 5 years.

OK, lets see:

Mach 2+ all weather long range interceptor... (and i wont even add in the hot start and weapon systems)

next plane to meet those claims: MiG-25
next US plane to meet those claims: F-15
Time delay for F-15 is what... 20/25 years?

Now someone is going to try and sneak the F-106 in there, sorry but no, it doesnt compete in the range department...

The Arrow was at least 10 years ahead of its time. Faster and larger than anything the Americans or Europeans were working on (closest would be the F-111 or F-4, both of which were a few (8-10) years behind it). It was designed to be able to go from cold soak to takeoff in under 5 minutes and to carry active and passive homing air to air missiles.

Now as for Canada's new purchases...

The C-17s, bout flippin time!
The Ships, see C-17.
The Helicopters, see C-17.
the Trucks, see C-17... get the idea?

Now all we need is some AWACS (Hawkeye 2000 would fit nicely), Command and Control naval (something that can interface with AEGIS) and some submarines that can actually submerge! Oh yea, not to mention something to replace the CP-140/141 (P-3) fleet with... i guess the only thing to replace an Orion (Aurora) is an Orion (Aurora)... And some newer Hercs (J) which are supposedly coming as well... and then theres the Leopards that are badly in need of replacement... and the CF-18 fleet is getting long in the tooth...

Snowbirds Planes, i believe they are scheduled to get some of those new Hawks to replace the CT-133s...
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
LY744
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RE: Canada�s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:54 am

The most similar fighters to the CF-105 were the MiG-25/31 and F-14. In comparison, both are true multi role fighters!  Yeah sure

Let's see, the Tomcat was plagued with problems, by the time they were solved it was time for the politicians to kill it. Only one export customer.

MiG-25? A true niche fighter. It might lose a turning fight to a B-52. Pretty bad combat record to boot.

In conclusion, Canada is not the kind of country that can afford to build fighters for the sake of prestige alone. With our budget, the CF-105 would have meant no F-5s and quite possibly no F-18s (a la Sea King... "Replacement? We don't need replacement! I'm bored, let's call an election...")


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
L-188
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 20):
In conclusion, Canada is not the kind of country that can afford to build fighters for the sake of prestige alone

No you need to be building simple effective easy to use aircraft. If Brasil can develop the AMX for gods sake, surely Canada can come up with something.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ba747yyz
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:49 am

About time! Thats all I can say.
 
LY744
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RE: Canada�s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 21):
No you need to be building simple effective easy to use aircraft. If Brasil can develop the AMX for gods sake, surely Canada can come up with something.

An AMX isn't the Avro Arrow.  Wink ...and it was built JOINTLY with Italy. There you have 2 countries combining to create 1 jet, far, FAR, less sophisticated than the CF-105. Good for them, at least they have their priorities straight.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
L-188
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 23):
An AMX isn't the Avro Arrow. ...and it was built JOINTLY with Italy.

true but it doesn't back me off my point that Canada's military should fly Canadian airplanes and that the Canadian Aviation Industry should be building them and would have no problem if they where allowed to do so.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LY744
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
true but it doesn't back me off my point that Canada's military should fly Canadian airplanes and that the Canadian Aviation Industry should be building them and would have no problem if they where allowed to do so.

We've got some Dash 8s, Buffalos, Tutors and Challengers. Not to mention the 100 or so Griffons that were assembled here.  Wink


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
L-188
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RE: Canada’s Military Goes On A Spending Spree!

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 25):
We've got some Dash 8s, Buffalos, Tutors and Challengers. Not to mention the 100 or so Griffons that were assembled here.

I grant you that but look at that list.

Dash-8's where not developed for military use, ditto for the challangers. Both fly the same role-taking the brass around.

Griffons owe their heritage to Bell Helicopter in the US and the UH-1. I do wonder which came first the Civilian 212, the UH-1N or the Griffon....I don't think it was the helicopter named for Merv.

And I would also argue the point that both the Buffalo and Tutor are products of the 1950's when Canada was serious about having a military aviation industry. I would also include products of this time to be the CF-100, CF-105, CL-44 and Argus.

Today's Canada military purcurement policies just can't match that golden age.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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