Falcon84
Topic Author
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What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:17 am

Ok, no BSing around here. I'd like to hear from all sides, and I'd like everyone to be dead honest.

What do you want to see as the future of the Middle East?

Here's what I want:

1. I want Israel secure, behind negotiated borders, that all can accept.

2. I want the Arab an Palestinians to pledge to stop and crush terrorism from their territories towards Israel and the rest of the world.

3. I want Israel to get rid of every settlement in those areas that will comprise a Palestinain State, and to relocate those people to Israel proper.

4. I want the Arabs/Palestinains to formally disavow their state of war against Israel, and work on a long-term peace agreement, that can lead to the prosperity of all it's people, Arab and Jew.

5. I want Jeruselem to be an Open City of the world. Call it what you want-The City of God. It is the birthplace of the three great religions Of The Book, and should not be coveted by, nor controlled in any part, by any of them. It should be governed by one member of each faith.

It cannot and should not belong to anyone.

6. I'd like to see, with such an agreement, the amount of aid sent to the ENTIRE region significantly reduced, as the region becomes prosperous on it's own.

7. The security of Israel, should it be breached, would be backed up by the good faith and the armed forces of the United States, if need be.


That's what I want.

I want peace in the region, where another generation of Jew and Palestinian isn't wasted on conflict.

What say you?
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Traindriver
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:58 am

Falcon, excellent post. I would like to think that all civilized people
would agree with you. This conflict has been going on much too
long and no one benefits from it.

Jeruselem should be an "open city" governed by reps. from the three
religions where members of the various religions can come and
worship freely.

I'd like to see my grandkids grow up in a world without all the hatred
that exists today. Kind of nice to dream.
 
ly7e7
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. I want Israel secure, behind negotiated borders, that all can accept.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. I want the Arab an Palestinians to pledge to stop and crush terrorism from their territories towards Israel and the rest of the world.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. I want Israel to get rid of every settlement in those areas that will comprise a Palestinain State, and to relocate those people to Israel proper.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
4. I want the Arabs/Palestinains to formally disavow their state of war against Israel, and work on a long-term peace agreement, that can lead to the prosperity of all it's people, Arab and Jew.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
5. I want Jeruselem to be an Open City of the world. Call it what you want-The City of God. It is the birthplace of the three great religions Of The Book, and should not be coveted by, nor controlled in any part, by any of them. It should be governed by one member of each faith.

West Jerusaelm is the capital of Israel. Jewish quarter of the Old City is the only Israeli enclave.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
6. I'd like to see, with such an agreement, the amount of aid sent to the ENTIRE region significantly reduced, as the region becomes prosperous on it's own.

US aid to Israel gradually reduced from NOW, without waiting for any progress in the peace process. It's like breastfeeding an 18 year old.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
7. The security of Israel, should it be breached, would be backed up by the good faith and the armed forces of the United States, if need be.

Formal defense treaty between Israel and USA( NATO style).
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
oli80
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting Traindriver (Reply 1):
Falcon, excellent post

And I also agree with every point you have made.

The only thing I would amend slightly,

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
7. The security of Israel, should it be breached, would be backed up by the good faith and the armed forces of the United States, if need be.

is replace Israel with country x and the US army, with a coalition force.
 
halls120
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:26 am

Agree fully with 1-6.

If put into place, there wouldn't be the need for 7.
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rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
5. I want Jeruselem to be an Open City of the world. Call it what you want-The City of God. It is the birthplace of the three great religions Of The Book, and should not be coveted by, nor controlled in any part, by any of them. It should be governed by one member of each faith.

I agree with everything you said except this. West Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel, even before 1967. Jerusalem's importance to Muslims/Arabs has been grossly exaggerated since Israel recaptured it in 1967 and this has been well documented by scholars with factual evidence. Jerusalem is an open city under Israeli control. If I'm not mistaken, when visiting Israel's main military cembetary in Jerusalem you can hear the call to prayer of a nearbye mosque. In the years the Arabs controlled East Jerusalem, any such co-existence was non-existent.

Perhaps you should non-rev on EWR-TLV someday and check it out for yourself!  Smile I guarantee you that if you visited Jerusalem you would have different thoughts on the capital issue...Virtually every American politican comes back feeling that way, hence the US Congress has acted on the issue many times and it continues to be a major issue in US-Israel relations (and Congressional-Executive Branch relations for that matter).
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Falcon84
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):

Sorry, RJ, even if I did, there has to be a way to break the one impasse that has always been in the way-Jeruselem.

It is a holy city for 3 great religions: Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam. It is an area rife with history for all three. It should NOT be controlled by any of them. It should be an Open City, for the people of the world, as a symbol of peace and faith, not death and violence.

I'll stand with this one.
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rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Sorry, RJ, even if I did, there has to be a way to break the one impasse that has always been in the way-Jeruselem.

Jerusalem has never been the impasse you make it out to be. Barak offered Arafat conrol of all of East Jerusalem...I'd say the real "impasse" issue is the refugees. But essentially both issues you mention are just fronts for not making peace with Israel. The Arabs haven't controlled Jerusalem in 40 years...Sovereignty over half the city is going to stop the fighting?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
FOMEA
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
It is a holy city for 3 great religions: Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam. It is an area rife with history for all three. It should NOT be controlled by any of them. It should be an Open City, for the people of the world, as a symbol of peace and faith, not death and violence.

I'll stand with this one.

Great Point and Posts Falcon..I agree with All point mentioned in the 1st post.
If I may add the rights of Palestinains to return Home.
I mean Don't Palestinian Arabs have a Right of Return based on UN General Assembly Resolution 194?


Regards
F-OMEA
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rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 8):
If I may add the rights of Palestinains to return Home.

Gonna let the thousands of Jews who fled Lebanon return?

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 8):
I mean Don't Palestinian Arabs have a Right of Return based on UN General Assembly Resolution 194?

They can do whatever they want in their own independent country of Palestine. The problem is that most Palestinian Arabs would rather wait for Israel to be destroyed than build their own country in the West Bank and Gaza.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
airxliban
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:00 am

When I saw this thread I was about to start talking about which countries I wanted to visit.

Just to chime in on the Jerusalem issue - Jerusalem is an important city to all three major religions and I agree with Falcon84 when he says:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
5. I want Jeruselem to be an Open City of the world. Call it what you want-The City of God. It is the birthplace of the three great religions Of The Book, and should not be coveted by, nor controlled in any part, by any of them. It should be governed by one member of each faith.

Agree completely on that.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
every American politican comes back feeling that way, hence the US Congress has acted on the issue many times and it continues to be a major issue in US-Israel relations

Then why is the US embassy still in Tel Aviv and should we expect it to be moved to Jerusalem?

One thing I'd like out of the Middle East (in addition to a number of the things said by Falcon) is to see the Palestinian refugees out of Lebanon and back to their homeland.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
FOMEA
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Gonna let the thousands of Jews who fled Lebanon return?

Absolutely.................... They should get their Homes, Synagogues (in downtown Beirut) and businesses all back.

After all they are Lebanese too!!!


Regards
F-OMEA.
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Emirates773ER
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:11 am

Agree with all of them except the last one. Don't trust the americans enough to be called on as a mediator country, a coalition force would do just fine.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:59 am

I want the Palaestinian government to have enough muscle to stamp out all the private armies, which keep on torpedoing any serious negotiations.

Jan
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rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting class=quote target=_blank>AirxLiban (Reply
10
):
Then why is the US embassy still in Tel Aviv and should we expect
it to be moved to Jerusalem?


Congress passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act in 1995 but provided the President with a national security waiver to sign every six months to delay it. If the President felt moving the Embassy would go against US interests, he could sign the waiver not to move it every six months. Clinton signed it every six months during his Presidency. Bush campaigned on moving the embassy to Jerusalem in 2000 (I believe Gore did as well), but has also signed the waiver every six months since becoming President.

In 1995, it passed the House 374-37 and the Senate 93-5...It continues to come up fairly often even today, especially with devout Christians. Senator Sam Brownback gave a speech explaining his feelings on Jerusalem, if you are
interested in reading:
target=_blank>http://www.america21.us/Happenings/D...cfm?TopicID=141&DisplayHistory=All

Also, Wikipedia has a fairly good entry on the US position regarding Jerusalem:
target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem

Section 214 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, 2003 states:

"The Congress maintains its commitment to relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem and urges the President [...] to immediately begin the process of relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem".

As a result of the Embassy Act, official U.S. documents and web sites refer to
Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

The site for the future US Embassy has been demarcated by Israel and the US, and is maintained in the western Jerusalem neighborhood of Talpiot.

Quoting class=quote target=_blank>FOMEA (Reply
11
):
Absolutely.................... They should get their Homes,
Synagogues (in downtown Beirut) and businesses all back.

After all they are Lebanese too!!!

Just for fun, think about the logistics of this. Who is going to pay the Jews
for all of the property/items they left behind? Who is going to pay the current
owners of this property to give it back to the Jews?

It is no coincidence that several Arab conutries declined so drastically after
losing their Jewish populations...Yemen being a perfect example. But don't hold your breath for them to come back after they were kicked out...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
FOMEA
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 14):
RJpieces

I am still waiting on your response back in regards to your post when you insulted my parents earlier.


Regards
F-OMEA
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Falcon84
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 12):
Don't trust the americans enough to be called on as a mediator country, a coalition force would do just fine.

I wasn't talking about the U.S. mediating anything; I was talking about the U.S. going to war, if need be, to defend Israel.

To me, that's one of the best guarantees of Israel's long-term security.

I would hope her Arab neighbors and newfound friends would forever honor a peace accord, but with the long history of fighting between the two, there has to be something behind the peace to guarantee it.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

I can sum it up in just one word.......


 candle  Peace  candle 
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airxliban
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 14):
In 1995, it passed the House 374-37 and the Senate 93-5...It continues to come up fairly often even today, especially with devout Christians. Senator Sam Brownback gave a speech explaining his feelings on Jerusalem, if you are
interested in reading:
target=_blank>http://www.america21.us/Happenings/D...cfm?TopicID=141&DisplayHistory=All

I read the article by Sam Brownback but all he said that was related to Jerusalem itself was:

"We revere Jerusalem. Your capital, your only capital throughout history, and what will remain your capital. And by the way, Israel is the only place in the world where the United States does not have our embassy in the capital city. It is time, past time, for America to move our embassy to Jerusalem, and to recognize by this act that Jerusalem, undivided, is the capital of Israel.

Many Americans pray for the peace of Jerusalem regularly. By doing so, we embrace what Jerusalem means. It is a city like no other. A symbol of man's ultimate destiny. A shining city upon a hill. A city to be full of souls that are at peace with God and one another. Yes, we pray for the peace of Jerusalem."

So basically, all he says is that it is past time for America to move its embassy to Jerusalem.

I also read the wikipedia article. So the UN states that "that the 1980 Jerusalem Law declaring unified Jerusalem, including annexed East Jerusalem, as Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital was "null and void and must be rescinded forthwith" (14-0-1, with United States abstaining). The resolution instructed member states to withdraw their diplomatic representation from the city as a punitive measure."

I have to agree with the UN on this one. Jerusalem is first and foremost a holy city for three major world religions and as such should not be affiliated with any country's government - this includes that of a future Palestinian state.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 14):
Just for fun, think about the logistics of this. Who is going to pay the Jews
for all of the property/items they left behind? Who is going to pay the current
owners of this property to give it back to the Jews?

It is no coincidence that several Arab conutries declined so drastically after
losing their Jewish populations...Yemen being a perfect example. But don't hold your breath for them to come back after they were kicked out...

But what does this have to do with the original comment made by FOMEA (as well as me) that the Palestinians should return home? Your response to the comment was "should the jews that left Lebanon be allowed to go back?" and he said absolutely.

Do you have anything to say about the issue raised?
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rolfen
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:14 am

- nudist beaches
- proper roads
- moden laws
- trustful gouvernements
- less of these cavernmen who have nothing better to do then burn down embassies and blow themselves up.

and oh...
- peace

Given all that believe it will be paradise on earth here... great beaches, green mountains, the prettiest girls, most friendly people, and all that oil money...

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

Something tells me you're jewish

----
Seriously now, once the above is applied (especially the nudist beaches) and we have serious, reasonable gouvernements elected by a class of moderate citizens and that are able to control the bearded cavemen on their territory, the rest will all fall in place by itself.

[Edited 2006-06-27 22:21:19]
rolf
 
Falcon84
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 19):
Something tells me you're jewish

Nope. Born and raised Roman Catholic, and, if I do go to church now, Lutheran.
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rolfen
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:58 am

sorry then!
i'm christian, by the way, catholic maronite
rolf
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):
I wasn't talking about the U.S. mediating anything; I was talking about the U.S. going to war, if need be, to defend Israel.

What if Israel goes to war? You seriously think the US needs to defend a country which is armed to its teeth, that two with nuclear weapons?
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yanksn4
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:28 am

List of what I want to see develope in the middle east:

1. end of islamic fascism

2. liberal movement (example: women's rights, human rights / something similar to us bill of rights)

3. overthrow of regimes like syria's, iran, saudi arabia, etc.

4. democratic process in every country

5. recognition of israel by all islamic countries

signed,
Matthew
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qr332
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:13 am

Too tired to list what I want to see now, maybe tomorrow, but for now:

RJ, your arrogance is exactly why an international city solution would not work. You see Jerusalem as minor to Muslims, while it is extremley important. And, religion apart, it has always been considered as the capital of Palestine by Palestinians, and as the most important city for Palestinians - the Dome of the Rock is pretty much a landmark for Palestine and it is located in Jerusalem. Jerusalem has a very long and rich Islamic history, starting with the prophet ascending to heaven from the Rock to the crusades and on to modern times. But, at the same time, it is very significant to Christians and Jews as well, which is why it is unfair to say it is more important to side x.

But, the above, IMO, is idealistic. A more realistic solution would be to split Jerusalem into East and West, with West Jer. being the capital of Israel and East Jer. being the capital of Palestine. The Old City is in East Jerusalem and would hence be Palestinian territory, with the exception of the Jewish quarter and the Western Wall. Also, the settlements choking East Jerusalem must be dismantled.
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Falcon84
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 23):

4. democratic process in every country

I don't give a damn what kind of government they have, Yanks. An American-style democracy is not for everyone. I don't care if they have a King, or someone who is elected once every 50 years. I think the U.S. far overrates that part of the process-Iraq is a prime example of that.

I just want to see them make peace with Israel, and leave what kind of government they want up to their own people.
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LO231
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 19):
and oh...
- peace

I love Sandra Bulock!!

But seriously:

1/ UAE
2/ Qatar ( don't laugh, I'm serious)
3/ Israel
4/ Dead Sea
5/ Jordan (Petra)
6/ Beirut, Paris of Middle East.

Not in particular order, though, just my travel wishes.

Regards,
LO231
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SlamClick
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:39 am

Mushroom clouds!

- signed
Zen100
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LO231
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
Mushroom clouds!

- signed
Zen100

Wrong region, those should be above Washington, London and Warsaw.

 Wink

Regards,
LO231
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
 
NWDC10
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. I want Israel to get rid of every settlement in those areas that will comprise a Palestinain State



Isreal belongs to the Jews, no one else. I don't want Palestian State in Isreal. Robert NWDC10
 
SFOMEX
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
5. I want Jeruselem to be an Open City of the world. Call it what you want-The City of God. It is the birthplace of the three great religions Of The Book, and should not be coveted by, nor controlled in any part, by any of them. It should be governed by one member of each faith.



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 5):
West Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel

I agree with RJ on this, Jerusalem should remain as the capital city of Israel. Yet, Israel should be willing to compensate the Palestinians on this by helping them to build its capital near to J'lem (Bethlehem comes to my mind) and grant them an expedite entry to East J'lem and the Old City. If they see that the Arab part of the city is open to them, they will focus on build their own country rather than fight a lost war.
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qr332
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:02 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
I agree with RJ on this, Jerusalem should remain as the capital city of Israel. Yet, Israel should be willing to compensate the Palestinians on this by helping them to build its capital near to J'lem (Bethlehem comes to my mind) and grant them an expedite entry to East J'lem and the Old City. If they see that the Arab part of the city is open to them, they will focus on build their own country rather than fight a lost war.

No way. What gives Israel the right to make Jerusalem its capital but to send us off to find another city to make our capital, especially since Jerusalem is the most important city to the Palestinians. We have every right to it, and a compromise has to be made. West/East Jerusalem, imo, would be the best compromise.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
No way. What gives Israel the right to make Jerusalem its capital but to send us off to find another city to make our capital, especially since Jerusalem is the most important city to the Palestinians. We have every right to it, and a compromise has to be made. West/East Jerusalem, imo, would be the best compromise.

Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel long before your and my time. It is a fact that East Jerusalem was ignored when the Palestinians/Jordanians controlled it from 1948-1967. Once the Jews controlled it, then the Arabs decided they had some historical claim to it. It's no different than claiming the Arabs deserve Spain today....Which I wouldn't be surprised if expansionist Muslims like yourself feel on some level.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:20 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 30):
I agree with RJ on this, Jerusalem should remain as the capital city of Israel. Yet, Israel should be willing to compensate the Palestinians on this by helping them to build its capital near to J'lem (Bethlehem comes to my mind) and grant them an expedite entry to East J'lem and the Old City. If they see that the Arab part of the city is open to them, they will focus on build their own country rather than fight a lost war.



Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
No way. What gives Israel the right to make Jerusalem its capital but to send us off to find another city to make our capital, especially since Jerusalem is the most important city to the Palestinians. We have every right to it, and a compromise has to be made. West/East Jerusalem, imo, would be the best compromise.



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel long before your and my time. It is a fact that East Jerusalem was ignored when the Palestinians/Jordanians controlled it from 1948-1967. Once the Jews controlled it, then the Arabs decided they had some historical claim to it. It's no different than claiming the Arabs deserve Spain today....Which I wouldn't be surprised if expansionist Muslims like yourself feel on some level.

Thank you for proving my point, gentlemen. It should belong to NEITHER. It should be the Open City, the City of God, capital to no nation, but Capital to the Peoples' of The Book.

I think RJ said it wasn't as big an issue as I made it out to be. Well, you're seeing, in a microcosm here, why it should belong to no one, but to everyone, as an Open City.
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rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
Thank you for proving my point, gentlemen. It should belong to NEITHER. It should be the Open City, the City of God, capital to no nation, but Capital to the Peoples' of The Book.

I think RJ said it wasn't as big an issue as I made it out to be. Well, you're seeing, in a microcosm here, why it should belong to no one, but to everyone, as an Open City.

Using that logic, you could say "Israel should let all Palestinian refugees return" that way it won't be a problem anymore.

Frankly, your plan for Jerusalem makes little sense and is no different than saying Israelis and Palestinians should live in one country and everyone will be happy. West Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel, even before 1967. Israel has offered and still offers to give up parts of East Jerusalem...But to make it an "open city" now, sixty years after it has been the capital of Israel makes no sense and is hardly worth discussing because it has no chance of actually happening. Israel's going to move their Knesset, their PM office, PM residence, and all other government offices outside Jerusalem? Why not just move the whole country while you're at it (as I'm sure many in that region would do in a second if they could)?

East Jerusalem as a capital of a Palestinian state is more than feasable however...But I'll remind you that sharing the land (be it all of Palestine, or just Jerusalem) has been rejected time and time again by the Arabs from 1937 until today. I don't know what makes you think it will work this time....
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NWDC10
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:58 pm

I can't believe you people. Isreal does NOT belong to anyone else but the Jews period. Get this straight people. Robert NWDC10
 
Pope
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:58 pm

How does anyone propose to deal with the "Dome on the Rock" / Great Temple problem?

From what I understand, Jewish theology calls for the rebuilding of the Great Temple as a necessay requirement. The problem is that the space where the Great Temple was located is currently occupied by the Dome on the Rock (which I think is the place where the prophet Mohammad ascended into heaven and is therefore very sacred to Islam).

Could someone confirm this or correct me where I'm wrong.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 36):
How does anyone propose to deal with the "Dome on the Rock" / Great Temple problem?

From what I understand, Jewish theology calls for the rebuilding of the Great Temple as a necessay requirement. The problem is that the space where the Great Temple was located is currently occupied by the Dome on the Rock (which I think is the place where the prophet Mohammad ascended into heaven and is therefore very sacred to Islam).

Could someone confirm this or correct me where I'm wrong.

I believe this is correct. A few years back a group of extremist Jews tried to blow up the Dome but it was foiled. But it's important to remember that Israel is a mostly secular state so this issue isn't really important to most people (although of course very important to a few extremists)
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 35):
I can't believe you people. Isreal does NOT belong to anyone else but the Jews period. Get this straight people.

Are you serious? God will have to come down to earth for me to accept that statement.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
NWDC10
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 38):
God will have to come down to earth for me to accept that statement.

I GAURANTEE you, you will soon see Him. You have no clue what you talk about? Who was the ONLY ONE that was crucified on the cross? Jesus christ. No one else. Robert NWDC10
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 39):
I GAURANTEE you, you will soon see Him. You have no clue what you talk about? Who was the ONLY ONE that was crucified on the cross? Jesus christ. No one else.

Jesus for me is a Prophet not God.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
SFOMEX
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 34):
Israel has offered and still offers to give up parts of East Jerusalem

If I recall correctly, Mr. Barak offered Mr. Arafat East Jerusalem and the Muslim and Christian Quarters of the old city during the peace talks at the end of the Clinton administration.

Had Arafat said yes, his grave would have been a national monument in East Jerusalem, Clinton and Barak would traveled around the world as Nobel Peace winners and, most importantly, Israelis and Palestinians would been living and working in peace.

Damn it!
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
NWDC10
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 40):
Jesus for me is a Prophet not God.

Do you know what the word "Emanuel" means my friend? Robert NWDC10
 
slider
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:18 am

There will not be peace in the Middle East until one party wins and one party is defeated. Period.

Sorry to be so cynical, but this whole kumbaya scenario just isn't feasible...and history shows that.
 
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fxramper
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:24 am

Currently, I am taking a Middle East Policy class at school: Problems in Palestine. It's entirely to fascinating. So much I've learned from the class thus far. Excellent Professor, Dr. Carol Bargeron. She is published Middle East History lecturer.


I know the differences between Shiates and Sunnis now!

Books we had to read that might answer some of your questions.

1. O Jerusalem, by Larry Collins and Dominique LaPierre
2. Palestinian Identity, The Construction of a Modern National Consciousness, by Rashid Khalidi
3. A History of Modern Palestine, One Land, Two Peoples, by Ilan Pappe
4. The War for Palestine, Rewriting the History of 1948, edited by Eugene L. Rogan and Avi Shlaim

Hope this helps!  

I could discuss your questions till I turned blue in the face!   

The most surprising thing my prof told me so far was she was trying to sell the idea that Arafat was a good man, trying to broker peace.   

The Jews are God's chosen people, nuff said.  yes 

[Edited 2006-06-28 17:40:54]
 
qr332
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel long before your and my time. It is a fact that East Jerusalem was ignored when the Palestinians/Jordanians controlled it from 1948-1967. Once the Jews controlled it, then the Arabs decided they had some historical claim to it. It's no different than claiming the Arabs deserve Spain today....Which I wouldn't be surprised if expansionist Muslims like yourself feel on some level.

I am not talking about the Israel of 2000+ years ago, I am talking about today. Jerusalem has been an Aarb-controlled city for hundreds of years, and today there is still a large Arab population in East Jerusalem (the largest Palestinian city in the West Bank). The Arabs have a very, very strong historical claim, and to deny it is just pure ignorance or trying to not see the obvious. And how was the largest city with an Arab population in the West Bank "ignored"? Jerusalem has always been very important to Palestinians, the only difference is that the actual issue came up in 1967 when the old city was taken by Israel - that is the most valuable part of Jerusalem, and the most important. Jerusalem and Spain are two completley different things - Spain was Arab-controlled a very, very long time ago, and this control has not existed for hundreds of year - while there are still some influences visible, the Arab world and Spain are very different. Jerusalem is still partly Arab-dominated, has very important Muslim sites, is considered the Palestinian capital by all Palestinians, and was only occupied 39 years ago.

And how am I expasionist? Because I want to see my country actually get somewhere? Do you really believe the bullshit that comes out of you?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 34):
Frankly, your plan for Jerusalem makes little sense and is no different than saying Israelis and Palestinians should live in one country and everyone will be happy. West Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel, even before 1967. Israel has offered and still offers to give up parts of East Jerusalem...But to make it an "open city" now, sixty years after it has been the capital of Israel makes no sense and is hardly worth discussing because it has no chance of actually happening. Israel's going to move their Knesset, their PM office, PM residence, and all other government offices outside Jerusalem? Why not just move the whole country while you're at it (as I'm sure many in that region would do in a second if they could)?

No, it hasn't, Tel Aviv was. Why is it that only two countries have embassies in Jerusalem? Israel's offers have never been realistic, and actions speak louder than words. On one front, they make it look like they're the good guys and that they are willing to give it up, on another, they are not permitting entry into the city, they are demoloshing houses for "a lack of a residence liscense", and they are surrounding the city with settlements such as E-1 to block of growth and control transport to the city. That is not to mention the security barrier which blocks of East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank.

Quoting Pope (Reply 36):
From what I understand, Jewish theology calls for the rebuilding of the Great Temple as a necessay requirement. The problem is that the space where the Great Temple was located is currently occupied by the Dome on the Rock (which I think is the place where the prophet Mohammad ascended into heaven and is therefore very sacred to Islam).

True, the Haram-El Sharif includes both the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa mosque, both of which are equally holy to Muslims. There have been several attempts at destroying them and their structure is significantly weaker than before due to Israeli excavation under the area.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 37):
I believe this is correct. A few years back a group of extremist Jews tried to blow up the Dome but it was foiled. But it's important to remember that Israel is a mostly secular state so this issue isn't really important to most people (although of course very important to a few extremists)

Few? I'm sure even semi-religous people wouldn't mind Muslim holy sites that have existed for thousands of years being destroyed and replaced by the temple, including yourself.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 41):
If I recall correctly, Mr. Barak offered Mr. Arafat East Jerusalem and the Muslim and Christian Quarters of the old city during the peace talks at the end of the Clinton administration.

But, that is only one small part of the offer. The rest included:
-Three isolated areas of Palestinian control
-No soveriegnty over the Old Ctiy, and it only applied to parts of East Jerusalem.
-A large portion of the Jordanian-Palestinian borded being controlled by Israel.
-Israel annexing a significant part of the West Bank.

Israel and America are equally to blame for the failure at Camp David, as the offer was unreasonable and was, as usual, only Israel oriented, and did not take the Palestinians into proper consideration.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 41):
Had Arafat said yes, his grave would have been a national monument in East Jerusalem, Clinton and Barak would traveled around the world as Nobel Peace winners and, most importantly, Israelis and Palestinians would been living and working in peace.

You really believe that?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
JJJ
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 39):
I GAURANTEE you, you will soon see Him. You have no clue what you talk about? Who was the ONLY ONE that was crucified on the cross? Jesus christ. No one else. Robert NWDC10

Funny you say first Israel belongs to Jews and then this.

Jews are not exactly fond of Jesus Christ, my friend.
 
Falcon84
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 44):
The most surprising thing my prof told me so far was she was trying to sell the idea that Arafat was a good man, trying to broker peace.

Uh huh, ask her what that little intifadah was after he threw away a chance for peace. She's nuts.

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 42):
Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 40):
Jesus for me is a Prophet not God.

Do you know what the word "Emanuel" means my friend? Robert NWDC10

NWADC10, stop your preaching. Not everyone is a Christian, and not everyone sees Jesus as the Messiah. Deal with it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
rjpieces
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 43):
There will not be peace in the Middle East until one party wins and one party is defeated. Period.

Sorry to be so cynical, but this whole kumbaya scenario just isn't feasible...and history shows that.

Very interesting that you mention this. I was reading about this topic not too long ago and have come to agree with it. You can't force artificial paper agreements on the ground. The only way to determine the outcome is brute force which is why I hope Israel totally destroys the Hamas infrastructure in Gaza today.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
No, it hasn't, Tel Aviv was.

Bulls**t. The Israeli capital was always West Jerusalem. Why is the Knesset there?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
Why is it that only two countries have embassies in Jerusalem?

Because the rest of the world doesn't want to piss off the Arabs. Heck, you publish a cartoon that you don't like and you get riots/embassies burnt to the ground. Frankly, the US does a bad thing with not moving the embassy to Jerusalem. We shouldn't give the Arabs any hope that they will one day retake Jerusalem. We should be more than clear on our position regarding Israel. Instead we fully support Israel 100% while at the same time advocating "diplomacy" and giving the Muslim world hope that will never bear fruit.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
And how am I expasionist? Because I want to see my country actually get somewhere? Do you really believe the bullshit that comes out of you?

You want maximum Muslim control and are not willing to let a Jewish state exist anywhere in historical Palestine. This is truth, no? You've never answered the question that Falcon has asked you a hundred times--Does Israel have a right to exist as an independent Jewish state?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
Few? I'm sure even semi-religous people wouldn't mind Muslim holy sites that have existed for thousands of years being destroyed and replaced by the temple, including yourself.

Yes, few. Most Israelis have much better things to do--like being part of Western civilization--than plotting terrorist acts against a Muslim shrine in hope that God will return blah blah. And as I'm sure you know, many Christians are more into the whole knocking down the Temple Mount thing than Jews...

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
-Israel annexing a significant part of the West Bank.

5-10% is significant? That's a good reason to launch a four-year war that killed thousands?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
Israel and America are equally to blame for the failure at Camp David, as the offer was unreasonable and was, as usual, only Israel
oriented, and did not take the Palestinians into proper consideration.

Funny, just about every historian who has written about Camp David has blamed it squarely on Arafat, even the Saudi Arabians did. But I trust you more than professional academics QR.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
You really believe that?

Well it depends. If Arafat got serious about cracking down on terrorism, he could have gone down in history as an amazing leader. A onetime terrorist turned visionary state-builder. An independent Palestine would be a thriving Democracy ten years later (now) and a model for the entire Arab world. Heck, the Iraq war might not have occured. But he always played both sides and never was truly serious about ending terrorism against Israel. In short, he wasn't willing to risk his life to do what needed to be done. The same can be said about Abbas today...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
piercey
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RE: What Do You Want To See In The Middle East?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 48):
Bulls**t. The Israeli capital was always West Jerusalem. Why is the Knesset there?

*sigh*

Quote:
During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, for a period of eight months (May-December 1948) during the Arab blockade of Jerusalem it also served as the temporary capital of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv#History
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.

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