rjpieces
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Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:04 am

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

IAF aircraft blew up a key strategic bridge in the northern Gaza Strip shortly before midnight on Tuesday. The army said that the operation was intended to keep Hamas from taking kidnapped soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit out of the Gaza Strip.

In addition, IDF tanks were amassing around Gaza, and were awaiting orders to begin a ground incursion into the strip. However, the the army denied an Israel Radio report that the armored forces had actually begun a ground incursion into the strip.

Earlier, Defense Minister Amir Peretz said that "the clock is running out, and Israel is poised and ready for a military operation in the Gaza Strip."

I really hope Hamas comes to its senses and turns over the soldier before this escalates. And mark my words, the IDF will be in Gaza if Hamas doesn't return the kidnapped Israeli.


Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz meets with troops


An IDF soldier cleaning his weapon near the Gaza border on Monday.


IDF tanks amass around the Gaza Strip, poised for an incursion in response to the kidnapping of IDF soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:19 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
I really hope Hamas comes to its senses and turns over the soldier before this escalates.

Should Israel come to its senses it would release all women and children its holding against all international law.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
And mark my words, the IDF will be in Gaza if Hamas doesn't return the kidnapped Israeli.

I know the arrogant racist Israel way too well. No need for a reminder.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Cpl. Gilad Shalit.

Can you also name just ONE of the thousands of innocent women and children Israel is holding?
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:39 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 1):
holding against all international law.

Not true. They underwent trials on terrorism charges.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
legoguy
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 1):
Can you also name just ONE of the thousands of innocent women and children Israel is holding?

Im don't really know much about the how situation but is Israel really holding thousands of innocent people???
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 3):
is Israel really holding thousands of innocent people???

Is a 15 years old explosives smuggler innocent?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
legoguy
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:49 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):
Is a 15 years old explosives smuggler innocent?

True, so they arn't holding any innocent people at all? I hope Cpl. Gilad Shalit is returned to Israel ALIVE before this escalates into war!
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 3):
Im don't really know much about the how situation but is Israel really holding thousands of innocent people???

Any credible source? Because if Bravo45 says "innocent women and children" then this term may as well include sheikh Yassin, Arafat and Bin Laden.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 5):
True, so they arn't holding any innocent people at all?

Errors do occur. I wouldn't go as far as saying that all of 9000 palestinian prisoners (of whom more than a thousand are minors and women) are indeed guilty. Vast majority certinaly is guilty.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 7):
Vast majority certinaly is guilty.

OK. But why keep the ones that are not guilty in prison?
That is a GOOD question.
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:45 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 2):
Not true. They underwent trials on terrorism charges.

So far I had not searched anything specific regarding this, I know Israel had policies in place like beatings and breaking of bones for demonstrators etc so these are some of the things I knew had truth in them. A quick search reveled some facts not about the charges, the ages and the obvious conditions they were arrested in but a good beginning. I will definitely look further into the actual human rights reports.
This ones sums a lot of things up, a story in stark contrast to the one currently at hand. http://gnn.tv/headlines/9343/Portrait_of_a_woman_as_political_prisoner

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 5):
True, so they aren't holding any innocent people at all? I hope Cpl. Gilad Shalit is returned to Israel ALIVE before this escalates into war!

Other than the 'usual people' who participate when this topic is discussed, everyone knows they have fixed opinions and nothing can change their mind, especially some of the radical ones on this forum. I always like someone new stepping in from time to time. In fact that is the only one good thing that comes out of it, some others learn something new. I don't know you may have expressed yourself quite often. I am sure should there be only one and that being the true version of facts out there, the world will not have problems. So instead of fixating on any one comment by anyone or fixating on any one piece of news its more productive to keep asking questions and searching online (it is such a world out there on the web) and continue to follow up. That's how a learned opinion is formed that you can back up with wat you know.
I didn't want to lecture and thus offend you at all, your two posts made me feel you were assuming a lot and willing to change opinions at less than a stroke. There is a lot of stuff that goes on, usually not reported. Even those who spends decades on this still find surprising new facts.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
Because if Bravo45 says "innocent women and children" then this term may as well include sheikh Yassin, Arafat and Bin Laden.

Looks like what I meant was what I posted and doesn't that prove you right. Congrats on your another great guess.  Yeah sure

P.S I hope the rest of the world may one pay pay half the attention one SOLDIER is recieving to the thousands like the one whose story is posted above. But then they are Palestinians, the cheaper blood...
 
legoguy
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:14 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
your two posts made me feel you were assuming a lot and willing to change opinions at less than a stroke.

I honestly have no idea what is happening between Israel and those within the Gaza strip so therefore im pretty much learning from every post in this thread
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 10):
I honestly have no idea what is happening between Israel and those within the Gaza strip so therefore im pretty much learning from every post in this thread

That was my impression too I just didn't want to be so blunt. Hope you find the truth. I would only appreciate should you participate and contribute because you will obviously learn in the process. Regarding the topic at hand, do at least scan the link I posted to get an idea what my point was.
Best Regards,
Jawad Usman.
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:22 pm

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 8):
But why keep the ones that are not guilty in prison?

They are finally let go of as the story I posted proves. Just never mind the eleven years spend in torture. And that is one story of a NOT GUILTY one.
 
legoguy
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:32 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):

Thanks for the link...It has really opened my eyes. I find it disturbing all these people are tortured and held without a trial.

Having read the article....I can understand why they are holding Cpl. Gilad Shalit. However each sides reactions just add to the havoc being caused!

Why has NATO not steped in to stop the torture?? Surely they could do something?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 13):
Why has NATO not steped in to stop the torture?? Surely they could do something?

We have the USA to Veto any resolution against Israel of just about any sort.

[Edited 2006-06-29 11:41:19]
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 13):
However each sides reactions just add to the havoc being caused!

Exactly, the cycle of violence is working perfectly despite the huge imbalance of power and military might.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:02 pm

This is great news indeed!

Signed, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
windshear
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 1):

I know the arrogant racist Israel way too well. No need for a reminder.

Eh what? Would you care to explain to us what you mean?
Just imagine what I now could call you, as a response to that...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 1):

Can you also name just ONE of the thousands of innocent women and children Israel is holding?

No, I cannot!
Unlike the Palestinian terretories, Israel has a well functioning judicial system, not unlike the rest of the free world, contrary to what you might think, the Palestinians are still ruled under the law of the automatic rifle.

You made some quite apalling, insulting and very serious accusations of Israel, guess you might know Israel better than me  Yeah sure

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
if Bravo45 says "innocent women and children" then this term may as well include sheikh Yassin, Arafat and Bin Laden.

-
no, it canNOT, as the three persons were (are) neither women nor children !  wave 
 
windshear
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 18):
no, it canNOT, as the three persons were (are) neither women nor children !

Both the Hizbollah and the Palestinian terror groups have used children as combatants!

Suicide bombers down to age 14 and armed infiltrators down to age 12!
This is sick sick sick!

Just as a side note, why the hell can't women be jailed?? Are they less guilty because they are women? Do you know that women blow them selves up as well??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bomber
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154341,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3109102,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3099440,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3071736,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1446003.stm

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 19):
Both the Hizbollah and the Palestinian terror groups have used children as combatants!
Suicide bombers down to age 14 and armed infiltrators down to age 12!

I am opposed to both the use of children in any kind of warfare AND the so-called self-sacrifice-attacks which make the activists into "one-way-soldiers"

Quoting Windshear (Reply 19):
why the hell can't women be jailed?? Are they less guilty because they are women?

women of course can be as guilty as men.
 
windshear
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
I am opposed to both the use of children in any kind of warfare AND the so-called self-sacrifice-attacks which make the activists into "one-way-soldiers"

I was not thinking you felt any other way, just wanted to point out to you, the tactics and mentality of those who are in jail.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
women of course can be as guilty as men.

Then why the women and children speach??

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 21):
Then why the women and children speach??

NOT launched by me here. It is however still "standard" among more old-fashioned people, to see the role of the women in the kitchen and with the children and maybe in the garden, all this .
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 17):
Israel has a well functioning judicial system, not unlike the rest of the free world, contrary to what you might think, the Palestinians are still ruled under the law of the automatic rifle.

Did you read the link I posted?? The well functioning judicial system?  Yeah sure

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 18):
no, it canNOT, as the three persons were (are) neither women nor children !

I think like many others I have read the comments of I , he was implying (sarcastically) that there are no innocent women or children in Israeli jails.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 19):
Just as a side note, why the hell can't women be jailed??

What about the case I posted??? Its not a single one incident, there are thousands like, so stop trying to justify detention of those they have material against. I am NOT talking about those. READ THE LINK I POSTED ABOVE rather than posting the typical propaganda. Or here it is again:
http://gnn.tv/headlines/9343/Portrait_of_a_woman_as_political_prisoner

Quoting Windshear (Reply 21):
Then why the women and children speach??

READ THE LINK!
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 23):
Its not a single one incident, there are thousands like

Count them. And bring relevant sources for each ,not some gnn bs.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 24):
Count them. And bring relevant sources for each ,not some gnn bs.

Are you telling me this is incorrect and that I won't be able to find any such cases in the reports if human rights groups? If so, I think to the contrary but I may not be able to make it online for the next couple of days, so I will be back with some links.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 24):
not some gnn bs.

By the same token I wouldn't be impressed by y.net or wikipedia bs either.
 
windshear
Posts: 2256
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 26):

By the same token I wouldn't be impressed by y.net or wikipedia bs either

Then what is the point Bravo? I mean you think your sources are credible, at the same time you claim that my independant news site is bs, and go on making these outragious accusations of Israel, some of which an Israeli here fail to recognize.

About your link, well it says that there currently is 115 women in israeli prisonsl, but why are they in jail Bravo? You think they are all in jail just so Israel can, Quote: 'Humiliate' them?

The women in the story, Zahra, she tells her story, fine she claims she is innocent and a political prisoner, but how can you just believe her? A woman in jail? And then transfer her story to the 114 other women in Israeli prisons?

This is what I find the most puzzling about this crisis.

Wa' salam Jawad.
Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
slider
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:50 pm

Time for everyone to just drop the gloves, have it out until final resolution.

Enough is enough. This back and forth bullshit must stop for the sake of long term stability in the Middle East. Either get it on or everyone STFU and go home!
 
windshear
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 28):
Time for everyone to just drop the gloves, have it out until final resolution.

And end up with another generation of freedom fighters, or avengers of the deaths of family members and so on and so forth? Big grin

But I understand what you mean, this game of intimidation is nerve wrecking!

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 25):
Are you telling me this is incorrect and that I won't be able to find any such cases in the reports if human rights groups?

All i said (and do read all of my posts when talking to me ,for f*cks sake) that there is a very small number of innocents arrested. Errors do occur, nothing we can do about it.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:02 am

2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
windshear
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 30):
All i said (and do read all of my posts when talking to me ,for f*cks sake) that there is a very small number of innocents arrested. Errors do occur, nothing we can do about it.

As in any country! But because it is Israel, there must be a sinister scheme behind all arrests.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 29):
avengers of the deaths of family members and so on and so forth?

THIS works both ways, and is in evidence on both sides. To overcome this avenging-pattern is what needs to be done.
 
windshear
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
THIS works both ways, and is in evidence on both sides. To overcome this avenging-pattern is what needs to be done

I agree, though what I wrote was meant as a joke, you know to laugh at a serious situation, when all other options are wasted.  Smile

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 34):
THIS works both ways, and is in evidence on both sides. To overcome this avenging-pattern is what needs to be done

I agree, though what I wrote was meant as a joke, you know to laugh at a serious situation, when all other options are wasted.

I DID realize your joke quite well, but you put your finger on THE most important aspect of conflicts in many parts of the world. You NEVER will meet people who tell you that they attack(ed), all people are reacting/retaliating/answering/retorting/paying-back etc !!
 
deltadc9
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 1):
I know the arrogant racist Israel way too well. No need for a reminder.

It is Israel that is at risk of extinction, no matter what, the Arabs will remain in the region. That is a big consideration.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 13):
Why has NATO not steped in to stop the torture?? Surely they could do something?

NATO? What the hell does NATO have to do with this? Besides, who in NATO can deploy forces at that distance? I will give you two guesses. NATO has no involvement in this matter or this region.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 14):
We have the USA to Veto any resolution against Israel of just about any sort.

Because it is the USA that will ultimately have to deal with the military action and the mess resulting. Only the UK offers more than a token contribution to anything military anyway, so why would we let countries with ulterior motives dictate our actions using a treaty that does not apply to the middle east?

And why would we let the UN approve military action that we do not approve of? When the UN deploys military assets, who's assets are the majority deployed?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
windshear
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
all people are reacting/retaliating/answering/retorting/paying-back etc

"No two historians ever agree on what happened, and the damn thing is they both think they're telling the truth." Harry S. Truman.

You are right, but one will go insane if one does not find a place in things like these. I have been all over the place, I know it is hard to believe since you and I have only exchanged views since February, but I have been all over the place opinion wise, what I know now, what I see now, what I understand now I try to base on logic and experience and knowledge.

If I am wrong, then only the truth will be revealed in due time, I'd rather want the truth, than fear it.

I know this will increase the amount of quotes used in this post, quite substantially, but these are from a guy I do not agree with 100% but most of all I do agree with him on many of his views.

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always."-Mohandas Gandhi

"Truth alone will endure; all the rest will be swept away before the tide of time."-Mohandas Gandhi


Time will tell, truth will survive.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
legoguy
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Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 pm

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 36):
NATO? What the hell does NATO have to do with this? Besides, who in NATO can deploy forces at that distance? I will give you two guesses. NATO has no involvement in this matter or this region.

Israel is currently a Mediterranean Dialogue country and has been recently seeking to expand its relationship with NATO. The first visit by a head of NATO to Israel happened on 23-24 February 2005 [3] and the first joint Israel-NATO naval exercise occurred on 27 March 2005. [4]. In May of the same year Israel was admitted in the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. Israeli troops also took part in NATO exercises in June 2005.

There have been advocates for the NATO membership of Israel, among them the former Prime Minister of Spain José María Aznar and Italian Defence Minister Antonio Martino. However Secretary-General of the organisation Jaap de Hoop Scheffer has dismissed such calls, saying that membership for Israel is not on the table. Martino himself said that a membership process could only come after an Israeli request; such a request has not yet taken place. [5]

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom stated in February 2005 that his country was looking to upgrade its relationship with NATO from a dialogue to a partnership, but that it wasn't seeking membership, saying that "NATO members are committed to mutual defence and we don't think we are in a position where we can intervene in other struggles in the world," and also that "We don't see that NATO should get engaged in our conflict here in the Middle East." [6]

The issue of Israel's potential membership again came to the forefront in early 2006 after heightened tensions between Israel and Iran. Former Prime Minister of Spain José María Aznar argued that Israel should become a member of the organisation alongside Japan and Australia, saying that "So far, expansion of NATO was an attempt at the growth and consolidation of democratic change in the former Communist countries. Now it is time to do the opposite, to expand toward those democratic nations that are committed to the struggle against our common enemy and ready to contribute to the common effort to free ourselves from it." [7][8]

Aznar also proposed a strategic co-operation with India and Colombia.

On June 22, 2006 the Israel Defense Forces announced that it was placing search-and-rescue forces on standby so they can be immediately dispatched to participate in NATO global operations. The IDF formally informed NATO headquarters in Brussels that Israeli Home Front Command rescue teams are available if needed to serve as part of the Western military alliance.

Above information taken from Wikipedia. I don't know what this would mean Im still trying to understand it all so don't flame me  duck 
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 38):
I don't know what this would mean Im still trying to understand it all so don't flame me

NATO was impotent in their own back yard when genocide reared its ugly head in Kosovo, the UN too. Clinton sent troops in without UN or NATO approval, sound familiar? NATO is paralysed like the UN, and probably less useful in a situation like this, and that is saying something.

Israel as part of NATO is a remote possibility in the distant future, but what happens in the middle east now and in the near future has nothing to do with NATO.

NATO as a treaty is quickly outliving its usefulness since the decline of the USSR anyway. At some point the US must ask, what are WE getting out out of this treaty? What exactly would NATO, or the UN for that matter, be without the US? What power could they project? What financial resources would they have? This will be an big issue in the future, and sort of is now.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 39):
Clinton sent troops in without UN or NATO approval

but virtually upon British and German demand. NATO was split as countries like France were, quite traditionally, on the Serbian side. the UN was paralysed as Russia was quite heavily on the Serbian side.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 39):
What exactly would NATO, or the UN for that matter, be without the US?

NATO is the result of what started in 1944 with Eisenhower at the helm and that is a kind of link-up between the USA and its allies in Western Europe. He therefore, just as his predecessors, was the "commander of the allied forces in the North Atlantic and Western Europe". The more practical side is that only the USA, as various situations have shown, has the required capabilities in regard to transport-capacities, firepower and manpower really to achieve something. In short, NATO without the USA would be between 40 and 50 % of what it is right now and in practice almost nothing. If the USA, as under Warren G Harding, chose to withdraw, it would be the hour of the "house of Europe of Messrs Gorbatchov, Yeltzin and Putin, in short, to get Russia into new arrangements would be absolutely mandatory.
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it is very very different with the UN. The UN forces to a considerable extent are made up of the forces of countries NOT involved in conflicts and mostly neutral countries. Relatively weak in a way, but the only way in which such an organisation can act. BUT, without the USA, the UN would no longer convince anybody. The UN depends on having ALL important nations within its framework. The UN therefore might easily survive a kind of Warren G Harding politics of "back to normalcy" as long as the USA remains a full member. But if the USA did what Messrs Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussonlini did in the 30ies, to get out of the League of Nations, it would ruin the organisation.
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deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
but virtually upon British and German demand. NATO was split as countries like France were, quite traditionally, on the Serbian side. the UN was paralysed as Russia was quite heavily on the Serbian side.

This is an imprtant parallel, we will never know who in the middle east wanted Saddam to go and sided with us in private. To assume that no Arab country backs the US is not a good idea.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
NATO

Outstanding post, far better than I could possibly have achieved. Exactly the points I wanted to make.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5423
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
If the USA, as under Warren G Harding, chose to withdraw, it would be the hour of the "house of Europe of Messrs Gorbatchov, Yeltzin and Putin, in short, to get Russia into new arrangements would be absolutely mandatory.

You're smoking some potent weed tonight aren't you. First that stuff about Arafat now this...
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5423
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 39):
Clinton sent troops in without UN or NATO approval, sound familiar

Not really. Instead of obsessing youself with Clinton try to find some facts first a) about the Kosovo war b) how NATO works and adopts decisions.

"Operation Allied Force was a NATO contingency response aiming at ensuring full compliance with UN Security Council Resolution 1199 (Sept. 23rd 1998)"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/allied_force.htm
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 41):
we will never know who in the middle east wanted Saddam to go and sided with us in private. To assume that no Arab country backs the US is not a good idea.

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A different matter. I would assume that virtually ALL Arab countries were in favour of having Saddam removed, while ALL hoped for a decent coup-d-etat with the help of western secret services, and most Arabs were shocked to see the "Eastern pillar of the Arab World" being occupied by the West. And even more shocked when the West, instead of helping one of the opposition politicians from exile into office as president-ad-interim gradually established a kind of post-colonial regime.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Israel On The Verge Of Entering Gaza

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 27):
Then what is the point Bravo? I mean you think your sources are credible, at the same time you claim that my independant news site is bs, and go on making these outragious accusations of Israel, some of which an Israeli here fail to recognize.

Here is what i said:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 26):
Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 24):
not some gnn bs.

By the same token I wouldn't be impressed by y.net or wikipedia bs either.

It will ONLY apply both ways. Like I mentioned I will look into the Human Rights reports and will get back here.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 27):
About your link, well it says that there currently is 115 women in israeli prisonsl, but why are they in jail Bravo?

Maybe exactly because this women was killed:
http://opposingdigits.com/vlog/?p=309

Quoting Windshear (Reply 27):
The women in the story, Zahra, she tells her story, fine she claims she is innocent and a political prisoner, but how can you just believe her? A woman in jail? And then transfer her story to the 114 other women in Israeli prisons?

This is what I find the most puzzling about this crisis.

At least it tells the kind of stories that are out there, am I saying this link is THE proof it happened? No, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's why I said I will look into the reports, it may even be trackable, or there will definitely be others from which one can judge the point I was trying to make.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 30):
All i said (and do read all of my posts when talking to me ,for f*cks sake) that there is a very small number of innocents arrested. Errors do occur, nothing we can do about it.

Like the one I posted above (the video)?
It can either be called an error, or something they are TOTALLY responsible for. You can choose your pick, but so can others.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 32):
, there must be a sinister scheme behind all arrests.

Like the 'myths' of illegal settlments etc? Israel occupys the land illegally and it is a brutal and long occupation at that. No myths, just too many horrifying accounts of innocent people that its hard to believe its true.

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