QANTAS077
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Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:56 pm

Probably the most brutal murder this state has come across, on monday a 8 y/o girl was raped, murdered and bashed in the toilets of a local shopping mall, the similarities to the Bulger case were remarkable...for the past 24hrs it was thought that the accused killer, Dante Arthus, was John Venables. It's since been proven false though the claims have hindered the chance of a fair trial. On a personal note the arresting officer and head of the investigation is my cousin, it's been a horrific case for all involved.

Girl found murdered in Perth shopping centre
Monday, 26 June 2006. 23:13

An eight-year-old girl has been found murdered at a shopping centre in the southern Perth suburb of Canning Vale.

Sergeant Graeme Clifford says the girl's body was discovered in the toilets at the Livingstone Market Place Shopping Centre late in the this afternoon, she had been shopping with her family.

"Major crime have been called to the location and are here as is police forensic and the matter is being treated as a murder inquiry," Sergeant Clifford said.

"The body of the girl was located by a family member and police were called and as I said it's being treated as a murder inquiry as we speak."

Police are reviewing video footage from the shopping centre's security cameras, witnesses are being urged to come forward.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200606/1672378.htm?perth

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200606/1672823.htm?perth

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200606/1673157.htm?perth

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200606/1674162.htm?perth

[Edited 2006-06-29 13:58:17]
 
VHVXB
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:04 pm

This is abosolutly horffic. I could not imagine what the family would be going through especially the brother who found the body. Lets hope the police can a do their job and find the person who commited this horiffc crime.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:06 pm

Monte, I know how you feel about the death penalty . . .

And you know how I feel about it . . .

The quicker the better, if he is irrefutably found guilty.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
VHVXB
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Monte, I know how you feel about the death penalty . . .

And you know how I feel about it . . .

Unfortunately Ancflyer this is Australia but the dickhead who did this deserves it.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
if he is irrefutably found guilty.

without a doubt
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
The quicker the better, if he is irrefutably found guilty.

So you'd have another burden of proof? People are convicted 'beyond reasonable doubt', which means there can be some doubt in the mind of the jury. You'd change that, in the case of death penalty cases, to beyond all doubt? You'll get very few convictions if you do that!
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:26 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 4):
You'd change that, in the case of death penalty cases, to beyond all doubt?

Same position I've always maintained . . . you're correct. And elminate the endless  redflag  appeals . . . if you're guilty, you're dead.

For the death penalty to be imposed - irrefutable proof. No reasonable doubt. No questions remain. DNA, witnesses, photographic evidence . . . irrefutable. Otherwise, no death penalty.

My comments were pretty clear I thought.

This assmonkey deserves it - period.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):

For the death penalty to be imposed - irrefutable proof. No reasonable doubt. No questions remain. DNA, witnesses, photographic evidence . . . irrefutable. Otherwise, no death penalty.

If there's to be no doubt in the mind of the jury, there would have to be ridiculously high levels of evidence to convict.

DNA wouldn't cut it as it can't be shown that everyone has distinct DNA (indeed identical twins have identical DNA) so you can't prove beyond all doubt that the DNA matches that of the defendant. Furthermore, the DNA doesn't show mens rea.

Photographs or video footage wouldn't work because both can be manipulated and there's no way to prove that the person in the pictures is the defendant.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:37 pm

Wanna debate the death penalty yet again, start another - yet another  sarcastic  - death penalty thread . . .

Lets try to keep this one on topic . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:39 pm

the accused has been moved to a mental facility just near Perth, when i first heard about it i nearly vomitted, i saw some live images of the accused and to be honest he looked handicapped. That's not an excuse for his actions, nor is it an excuse for people to start attacking his parents which has happend now. It'd almost be impossible for a fair trial in the state, the publicity has been enormous and made worse by the email that spread around the country.

for me he needs to be tried and locked away for life, I just don't believe in inflicting more death and suffering then there is from this case. i'm not sure how that would sit with the victims family, they are a devout Christian family so they may not approve/believe in the death penalty?!?! For the past 3 night's i've seen my cousin John on tv and sat here wondering what on earth he saw, there are elements of the crime that haven't been released but i can say for certain that she was brutally bashed, had broken limbs and was strangled. Knowing that you'd think i'd be calling for the death penalty...i just don't believe in it.

I feel for the victims family and the accused family, one has to deal with the loss of a child and the other with the fact that, maybe there son is a child killer. No parent should have to live with either of those.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 6):
If there's to be no doubt in the mind of the jury, there would have to be ridiculously high levels of evidence to convict.

DNA wouldn't cut it as it can't be shown that everyone has distinct DNA (indeed identical twins have identical DNA) so you can't prove beyond all doubt that the DNA matches that of the defendant. Furthermore, the DNA doesn't show mens rea.

Photographs or video footage wouldn't work because both can be manipulated and there's no way to prove that the person in the pictures is the defendant.

this aint a penalty debate...we don't have it in this country so that's that, our judicial system will deal with it using our laws, so lets not go down this track, it's irrelevant here.
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Wanna debate the death penalty yet again, start another - yet another sarcastic - death penalty thread . . .

Lets try to keep this one on topic . . .

You're the one who brought up the death penalty. Are you trying to get out of defending your position now some of the realities of your idea come to light?

What evidence would convince you, beyond all doubt, that the man charged with murdering this girl is guilty and deserves the death penalty?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 8):
Knowing that you'd think i'd be calling for the death penalty...i just don't believe in it.

I understand and agree with you.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:46 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
You're the one who brought up the death penalty. Are you trying to get out of defending your position now some of the realities of your idea come to light?

Let me say it ONE more time . . .for the comprehension impaired:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Wanna debate the death penalty yet again, start another - yet another - death penalty thread . . .

Lets try to keep this one on topic . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Let me say it ONE more time . . .for the comprehension impaired:

ANC, we're all disgusted by this crime, and the point of this thread is to inform people and to express our opinions. The subject of the death penalty will arise, and did arise in this discussion; and as long as we keep in mind the terrible event at the centre of it, why should we not discuss the merits of the death penalty in this case?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
You're the one who brought up the death penalty. Are you trying to get out of defending your position now some of the realities of your idea come to light?

What evidence would convince you, beyond all doubt, that the man charged with murdering this girl is guilty and deserves the death penalty?

give it a break..he gave a view on the punishment and John knows full well we don't have it here, it's his opinion on a punishment if he is found guilty...we're not here to discuss the DNA profiles or the irrefutable evidence and judge if death is appropriate penalty, we don't have it so it's pointless debating it!
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):

Let me say it ONE more time

You can say it as many times as you like, the fact remains that you brought up the death penalty, no one else, and now you're pussying out of discussing it. God forbid someone disagrees with you in a discussion forum.

 Yeah sure
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QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
why should we not discuss the merits of the death penalty in this case?

why should we? it's Australia and we don't have the death penalty here so no matter what's said about it, the fact is it's irrelevant, we don't administer it so why bother raising it...in WA the mandatory penalty is life in prison...he could get a sentence which keeps him at the governors discretion.

This will end up becoming a discussion on how we should kill the accused...i didn't raise the thread for that purpose, it's to highlight this terrible crime and make parents aware that maybe reading this that your children are only so safe in the times we live in.

[Edited 2006-06-29 14:57:44]
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 14):
we don't have it so it's pointless debating it!

And despite that, ANCFlyer wrote:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):

And you know how I feel about it . . .

The quicker the better, if he is irrefutably found guilty.

If you want to bitch to someone, bitch to him.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 15):
You can say it as many times as you like, the fact remains that you brought up the death penalty, no one else, and now you're pussying out of discussing it. God forbid someone disagrees with you in a discussion forum.

OK Hero . . .

One more time . . . I thought you were only comprehension impaired, appears your difficulties run a bit deeper . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Wanna debate the death penalty yet again, start another - yet another - death penalty thread . .

I'm waiting on you . . . you can start thread or keep babbling to yourself in this one. Would you like a gold embossed invitation?

[Edited 2006-06-29 15:01:15]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
If you want to bitch to someone, bitch to him.

you've made more out of it then anyone...let it go! you've not expressed any opinion on the horrific crime, just getting into a debate about penalty, how about some remarks about what the family would be going through?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:02 pm

Mont, the most this guy can get is Life in Prison, is that correct? What are the possibilities for parole in the Oz judicial system?

I'm always concerned when I have my daughter with me - particularly if we're traveling alone . . .

I recall travelling through SJC with here about 3-4 years ago, on several trips to Monterey, CA. If I had to use the facilities, I'd first find a cop, and leave her there . . . or stand her over by the Airline Check-in counters . . . with explicit instructions to scream her head off if anyone approached her except me.

She's older now - but, still, only 12 and just as vulnerable.

[Edited 2006-06-29 15:08:25]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 6):
If there's to be no doubt in the mind of the jury, there would have to be ridiculously high levels of evidence to convict.

Well the brother and uncle checked the male and female toilets for her. The brother then checked the disabled toilet, which was locked. The door was then unlocked, and the accused ran out past the brother. The brother, seeing the sister on the ground, then ran after the accused.

This is an open and shut case. There is no doubt as to the guilt of the accused.

However, the death penalty, as emotional as this case is, should not and never be introduced and implemented.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Thread starter):
Dante Arthus, was John Venables

So is John Venables in Oz?

BF

PS

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 15):
You can say it as many times as you like, the fact remains that you brought up the death penalty, no one else, and now you're pussying out of discussing it.

No he isn't, he's suggesting that it is discussed elsewhere if you READ HIS POST. SO DON"T DISCUSS IT HERE.
Fortune favours the brave
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
Mont, the most this guy can get is Life in Prison, is that correct? What are the possibilities for parole in the Oz judicial system?

i'm looking it up, i'll get back to you in a few...i believe the worst sentence possible is life without parole or held at the governors pleasure.
 
VHVXB
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
Mont, the most this guy can get is Life in Prison, is that correct?

Yes this is true

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
What are the possibilities for parole in the Oz judicial system?

Probably unlikely but in many cases parole for life in prision is usually given after 25year correct if i am wrong.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 22):
So is John Venables in Oz?

no...did you read any of what i said?
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
I thought you were only comprehension impaired, appears your difficulties run a bit deeper . . .

At least I can use fucking ellipses correctly.

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 21):
The brother then checked the disabled toilet, which was locked. The door was then unlocked, and the accused ran out past the brother. The brother, seeing the sister on the ground, then ran after the accused.

Jeez. Not to be morbid, but do you know how she was killed? I can't find any mention of it in the news reports.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
What are the possibilities for parole in the Oz judicial system?

If you want to discuss parole in the Australian judicial system, start a new thread.  Yeah sure
Your bone's got a little machine
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:20 pm

John this is the penalty act from the criminal code of WA. I'd bet that he will get strict security life without parole...

CRIMINAL CODE - SECT 282
Penalty for wilful murder and murder

282 . Penalty for wilful murder and murder

A person, other than a child, who commits the crime —

(a) of wilful murder is liable to a mandatory punishment of —
(i) strict security life imprisonment; or
(ii) life imprisonment;
(b) of murder is liable to a mandatory punishment of life imprisonment,

and a child who commits the crime —

(c) of wilful murder is liable to a punishment of —
(i) strict security life imprisonment; or
(ii) life imprisonment; or
(iii) an order that the child be detained in strict custody until the Governor’s pleasure is known and, thereafter, in safe custody in such place or places as the Governor may, from time to time, direct;
(d) of murder is liable to a punishment of —
(i) life imprisonment; or
(ii) an order that the child be detained in strict custody until the Governor’s pleasure is known and, thereafter, in safe custody in such place or places as the Governor may, from time to time, direct.

[Section 282 inserted by No. 70 of 1988 s. 27; amended by No. 14 of 1992 s. 4(2).]

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/consol_act/cc94/s282.html

CRIMINAL CODE - SECT 278
“Wilful murder”, definition of

278 . “Wilful murder”, definition of

Except as hereinafter set forth, a person who unlawfully kills another, intending to cause his death or that of some other person, is guilty of wilful murder.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/consol_act/cc94/s278.html
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
If you want to discuss parole in the Australian judicial system, start a new thread.

well parole is part of our legal system so it's relevant to discuss it...death penalty isn't so that is IRRELEVANT here.
 
melpax
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 23):
i'm looking it up, i'll get back to you in a few...i believe the worst sentence possible is life without parole or held at the governors pleasure.

I'm pretty sure life without parole is the most severe punishment possible, I'm sure people aren't held at Her Majesty's pleasure anymore. However, from seeing pictures of the sicko on TV, he'll probably spend the rest of his days in a psych unit somewhere....
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
777236ER
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
well parole is part of our legal system so it's relevant to discuss it...death penalty isn't so that is IRRELEVANT here.

And yet ANCFlyer brought it up.  Sad
Your bone's got a little machine
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Melpax (Reply 30):
I'm sure people aren't held at Her Majesty's pleasure anymore.

it's still administered if it is a child who commits wilful murder...
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 28):
John this is the penalty act from the criminal code of WA. I'd bet that he will get strict security life without parole...

Similar then to what we have here then . . . .

The most heinous of assholes is locked up 23 hours a day . . . in a very small room.

Good punishment for this puke - IF some bleeding heart court doesn't find him mentally unable to stand trial. It's a given - already - that's he's unstable . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 33):
It's a given - already - that's he's unstable . . .

not sure i know any normal people who'd act in this manner...he is now being held at the mental facility though, he appeared by video today from the facility. The only question is...can he recieve a fair trial in this state? i doubt it...

he is being held at the Frankland facility within Graylands.

http://www.mental.health.wa.gov.au/one/sfmhs.asp
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 26):
Jeez. Not to be morbid, but do you know how she was killed? I can't find any mention of it in the news reports.

Not sure, but I do know reports say that she was naked, and that there was sign of sexual penetration. The police also believe that Arthurs killed the girl as her brother was knocking on the disabled toilet door.

Furthermore the prosecution is actually raising concerns that he will be unable to get a fair trial in WA due to emails and faxes being sent that this Arthurs guy is one of the killers of James Bulger, and has been relocated to Perth from the UK, along with a new identity. This of course is not true.

 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 26):
Not to be morbid, but do you know how she was killed? I can't find any mention of it in the news reports.

she was strangled
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:37 am

Jeseus!!  Sad

This is awful, I'd hate to be the parents of that young girl.....


Lets hope the appropriate level of justice is served.



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 25):
no...did you read any of what i said?

Clearly not. I still couldn't find the answer.

BF
Fortune favours the brave
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Horrific Murder Of 8 Y/O Girl Near Me.

Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 38):
I still couldn't find the answer.

neither of them are in Australia.

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