dtwclipper
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For American Jews

Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:30 pm

I am an American Jew, who grew up believing that a homeland for Jews in the Middle East was a given, and that support for the state was a natural part of my being.

We were inspired by the advances in technology, agriculture, and industry. We watched as Israelis made the desert bloom. We made pilgrimages to Eretz Yisroel, donated our money, and planted trees. We gave money and support, cheered at Entebbe, and cried for those in Munich.

But now, I don’t know anymore. This latest incursion is making me wonder if it is worth it anymore. There will never be peace, prosperity, nor calm.

I am disillusioned and despondent
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comorin
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RE: For American Jews

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
I am disillusioned and despondent

Don't be! It is so important that you express your viewpoint along with many American Jews (Spielberg, Soros etc) who have the courage to oppose the status quo viewpoint. Many young Israelis are also disaffected by the older, reactionary forces in their society. Jews in America have a remarkable history of being the voice of reason during America's difficult times (McCarthyism, Civil Rights) and are in a unique position to influence Israel's future.

As a non-Jew, I find it a lot easier to discuss the Middle East with Israelis than with Americans - it's just too sensitive a matter to discuss. I think the key to peace in the Middle East will come from progressive people like you, rather than the right-wing lobbyists that control foreign policy in this region.

Your heartfelt post is to be commended.  thumbsup 
 
asbg
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RE: For American Jews

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:18 pm

Dtwclipper.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. Look back at the years since 1948, maybe even prior to that. which other country managed to "stay on it's feet", war after war but still be able to prosper and build itself up so you can be proud of the events and facts you stated. Israel is not only a country, it's a nation as well. These people that came from all over the world to Eretzh Yisroel to establish a life here. Because are these people you should be proud. Not only for the accomplishments but also for standing up and being together as a nation in good times and bad.

Now that summer vacation is at it's peak it makes me really proud to see all the mass of tourists, mainly Jewish that had the "courage" to have the Israel experience. I hope to will or are part of them.

Peace will come one day. Until that day we need people like you, an American Jew, not to be pessimstic and despondent but the optisite. So Israel can have the positive backing and support even in the smallest of things.

Here in Israel it's very common to say Ihiye Beseder, which means everything will be ok.

I hope I helped in some way.
Sam.
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: For American Jews

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
But now, I don’t know anymore. This latest incursion is making me wonder if it is worth it anymore. There will never be peace, prosperity, nor calm.

As I said in another post, if there are two Jews alive there will always be an Israel. Of course it is worth. Still and always. Look at the images of the refugees from Europe pouring down from ships in the 40's, hopeless and destitute, yet brave enough to create a country from nothing. Look at how many people perished for that dream to survive, for the dream to continue (how many are remembered at Izkor). Look at how far this country has gone in only 58 years, despite 6 wars!

I have lived in a Kibbutz (Palmahim) and studied in Ben-Gurion University (Bersheeba). The time in Israel was probably one of the best in my life. And I will always think it will be worth pursuing the dream of the State of Israel.

Alex
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rjpieces
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:16 am

Comorin, I enjoyed your post very much until your right-wing lobbyist comment. Frankly, that has anti-semitic undertones implying that there is some Jewish conspiracy that is to blame for everything. At first I thought you were very much making sense, but it appears you're just another conspiracy-minded leftist.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
But now, I don’t know anymore. This latest incursion is making me wonder if it is worth it anymore.

It's ok Jeremy. It's normal and healthy not to have uniform feelings on Israel. American Jews have ALWAYS been critical of Israel at times and have every right to be. Personally, I think it's their (our) way of squashing the notion of dual-loyalty. Very often it is much easier for non-Jewish Americans to be incredibly supportive of Israel and many, many are.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
We were inspired by the advances in technology, agriculture, and industry. We watched as Israelis made the desert bloom. We made pilgrimages to Eretz Yisroel, donated our money, and planted trees. We gave money and support, cheered at Entebbe, and cried for those in Munich.

And we still do. And we always will. Israel truly is one of the most unique countries in the world and something to be deeply proud of. It amazes me how even to this day they continue to be among the most innovative and high-tech countries in a region that collectively does nothing. Just two weeks ago there was a report that an Israeli university research team might be close to a breakthrough on Cancer treatment.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
There will never be peace, prosperity, nor calm.

As if that is something new? Jews have never known peace or calm; it's the reason why so many American Jews are paranoid today (think Woody Allen).

And frankly this affects us as Americans as well as Jews. In fact, being Jewish puts us in a unique situation to understand the conflict that we now face as Americans.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Newark777
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
and that support for the state was a natural part of my being.

I never understand people who confuse the Jewish faith with the Israeli government. The government there is no better than anywhere else, violent, and probably corrupt. Has nothing to do with whether you are a good Jew or not.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
For American Jews

Why only American Jews?

I'm partly Jewish too, but not from America  Wink
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
I'm partly Jewish too, but not from America

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

 Wink
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UAL4ever
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:20 am

Don't worry about the feelings of uncertainty. You have to remember that Israel is doing the right thing and only responding to threats when necessary to protect innocent people trying to live their lives. As An American and Israeli citizen I have absoloutely no moral qualms about what is going on now. the Israelis need to make very clear what the concequences of terror are not just for those who commit the acts but also for those who support and harbor terrorists.
 
qr332
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 3):
Europe pouring down from ships in the 40's, hopeless and destitute, yet brave enough to create a country from nothing.

Too bad you forget to mention that there are also images of Arabs pouring out of their land (which you say is "nothing") due to being kicked out... 800,000 of them.

Quoting UAL4ever (Reply 8):
Don't worry about the feelings of uncertainty. You have to remember that Israel is doing the right thing and only responding to threats when necessary to protect innocent people trying to live their lives. As An American and Israeli citizen I have absoloutely no moral qualms about what is going on now. the Israelis need to make very clear what the concequences of terror are not just for those who commit the acts but also for those who support and harbor terrorists.

Is Israel really doing the right thing? They are occupying two areas which aren't theres, harassing and opressing an entire population, are responding to a military attack by hitting civilians, and are not being confronted by anyone. Taking two soldiers is in no way terror, it is a military action. Hitting the BEY runways (which, btw, have houses in between them which were also hit), and towns with no link to Hizbollah in the south, and killing 53 civilians in two days is state terrorism, and the fact that you have no moral qualms about it says a lot, UAL.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Asbg (Reply 2):
Sam.

Sam/Asbg, will you drop me an e-mail/private message, I wanted to ask you something.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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clickhappy
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:03 am

How can you be "partly-Jewish?"

You either are (your mom is a jew) or you aren't. Your dad could be jewish, like my dad, but that does not make one jewish.
 
ly7e7
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:06 am

I was actually thinking about replying , but my country is at war, i have better stuff to do.
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qr332
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:14 am

Why are you obsessing about your country being at war, LY? It is almost like you want this to happen... this could have been avoided, but Israel decided to respond by hitting civilians.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Bobster2
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:20 am

I was raised as an American Reformed Jew, which means that the Orthodox rabbis who make the laws in Israel wouldn't consider me to be a Jew at all.

I thought an Orthodox Jew would be most likely to strictly follow the Ten Commandments, ie. no killing. Since I tend to be pacifist, I became an atheist, because that's more consistent with my desire to live in peace and not let myself be consumed with genocidal hatred of my neighbors.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
ly7e7
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 13):

Because Lebanon started a war by lettin the hezbollah open fire , cross israeli border and take POWs. Or are you going to argue about those soldiers being POWs? cause if they are not - they are then victims of a terror act. Either way - AN AGGRESSION AGAINST ISRAEL WILL NOT STAND. And Lebanon will (unfortunately) pay a heavy price.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
qr332
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

Well, if Israel had actually agreed to negotiate with the Lebanese prior to this about Lebanese POWs, this wouldn't have happened. Also, Israel is responding by hurting civilians, who are paying the heavy price.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
Frankly, that has anti-semitic undertones implying that there is some Jewish conspiracy that is to blame for everything. At first I thought you were very much making sense, but it appears you're just another conspiracy-minded leftist.

You have GOT to be kidding me.

As for a large group of Jews i know around here, they tend to be pretty anti-Israel.
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UAL4ever
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Is Israel really doing the right thing? They are occupying two areas which aren't theres, harassing and opressing an entire population, are responding to a military attack by hitting civilians, and are not being confronted by anyone. Taking two soldiers is in no way terror, it is a military action. Hitting the BEY runways (which, btw, have houses in between them which were also hit), and towns with no link to Hizbollah in the south, and killing 53 civilians in two days is state terrorism, and the fact that you have no moral qualms about it says a lot, UAL.

Lebanon brought this upon themselves by supporting and Harboring the Hezbolloh. While civilian casualties are unfortunate the Lebanese government has no one to blame but itself. Lebanon will suffer the consequences of supporting terror.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 15):
AN AGGRESSION AGAINST ISRAEL WILL NOT STAND. And Lebanon will (unfortunately) pay a heavy price.

I could not agree with that statement more strongly!
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
How can you be "partly-Jewish?"

You either are (your mom is a jew) or you aren't. Your dad could be jewish, like my dad, but that does not make one jewish.

You know what I mean... its on my dad's side, and I know its awkward to say "partly jewish" but in what other way would you put it? at that time, Israel didn't exist so I don't know what else to call it.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:35 am

Thats a fair statement  Smile I wasn't trying to criticze you, just trying to understand what you mean.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 20):
Thats a fair statement Smile I wasn't trying to criticze you, just trying to understand what you mean.


Oh sorry. I see what you mean. Sorry that I made it look like critizism

[Edited 2006-07-13 21:03:37]

[Edited 2006-07-13 21:07:04]
 
dtwclipper
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
I never understand people who confuse the Jewish faith with the Israeli government. The government there is no better than anywhere else, violent, and probably corrupt. Has nothing to do with whether you are a good Jew or not.

Ah, here is the paradox. Jews from around the world are raised with this dual conflict. We are torn between support of a Jewish state, and our adopted homes. It is the implicit understanding that without the state of Israel Jews have no safe haven, therefore it is imperative that we support Israel.

True, the government is no better then any other, but we have a connection to it, and are torn between support and loathing.
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N1120A
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 17):
As for a large group of Jews i know around here, they tend to be pretty anti-Israel.

I don't know about anti-Israel, but certainly disgusted with Israel.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
It is the implicit understanding that without the state of Israel Jews have no safe haven, therefore it is imperative that we support Israel.

You see, that is the problem right there. Nationalism based on some sort of religious or ethnic identity is always bound to cause a problem like this. It doesn't matter whether it is a Jewish Nationalism, a Moslem Nationalism, a Christian Nationalism (ever meet some of THEM?), etc. Take a look at our country, the United States. For all its flaws, one thing the US has been able to do is maintain a degree of peace because our nationalism is based on the dirt we stand on, not the religion we were preached
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Newark777
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
I was actually thinking about replying , but my country is at war, i have better stuff to do.

But then you go ahead anyway:  eyebrow 

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 15):

Because Lebanon started a war by lettin the hezbollah open fire , cross israeli border and take POWs. Or are you going to argue about those soldiers being POWs? cause if they are not - they are then victims of a terror act. Either way - AN AGGRESSION AGAINST ISRAEL WILL NOT STAND. And Lebanon will (unfortunately) pay a heavy price.



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):

True, the government is no better then any other, but we have a connection to it, and are torn between support and loathing.

I would think that it would be more of a connection to your "homeland" and the other Jewish people living there, not the government that represents it.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
It is the implicit understanding that without the state of Israel Jews have no safe haven

Sadly, this seems to be the opposite of the truth.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Bobster2
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
We are torn between support of a Jewish state, and our adopted homes.

When you used the word "we" in your first post, I assumed you were talking about yourself and your family.

Now I realize you've appointed yourself to be a spokesperson for all of us. As the saying goes, "That's very different!!!"

Oy vey. Count me out!!!!
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
dtwclipper
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 24):
Sadly, this seems to be the opposite of the truth.

Hardly. Jews are guests in every other country of the world. It only takes a shift in the political wind to make things very difficult.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 24):
I would think that it would be more of a connection to your "homeland" and the other Jewish people living there, not the government that represents it.

You've missed my point.
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dtwclipper
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 25):
When you used the word "we" in your first post, I assumed you were talking about yourself and your family

I think I am talking about myself, and American Jews. It is a general statement, an observation.
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N1120A
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 26):
Jews are guests in every other country of the world.

Again, this is the mentality that needs to be gotten rid of. If Jews are guests in other countries, so are Catholics. This is particularly true in the case of the American Jew, where religion (despite what some people may tell you) has absolutely NOTHING to do with this country's government. In essence, the Constitution makes every religion a guest here, but the people who practice those religions are at home.
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rjpieces
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 26):
Hardly. Jews are guests in every other country of the world. It only takes a shift in the political wind to make things very difficult.

Indeed, although there is generally speaking one exception to the rule: the United States. Even Canadian Jews are often amazed at how accepted American Jews are, how much American Jews have influenced American culture, etc.

It is absolutely not a coincidence that Jews are so accepted here, that the United States is Israel's best friend, etc.

You can measure the greatness of a country by how thriving their Jewish community is.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 15):
Either way - AN AGGRESSION AGAINST ISRAEL WILL NOT STAND. And Lebanon will (unfortunately) pay a heavy price.

I reject this type of view of the situation without reservation.

Israel should be taking out what are threats, and working with Lebanon to bring about a stable, peaceful, democratic nation as their neighbor. Not set out to destroy it.
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yowza
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
I never understand people who confuse the Jewish faith with the Israeli government. The government there is no better than anywhere else, violent, and probably corrupt. Has nothing to do with whether you are a good Jew or not.

This same type of confusion affects the other side of this too. It is important to divorce the Government of Lebanon (an its less desirable affiliations) from the people of Lebanon.

YOWza
 
dtwclipper
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 29):
You can measure the greatness of a country by how thriving their Jewish community is.

Still, we are less then 2% of the population, and growing smaller.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Again, this is the mentality that needs to be gotten rid of. If Jews are guests in other countries,

ah but "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana (1863–1952), U.S. philosopher, poet.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 30):
Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 15):
Either way - AN AGGRESSION AGAINST ISRAEL WILL NOT STAND. And Lebanon will (unfortunately) pay a heavy price.

I reject this type of view of the situation without reservation.

 checkmark  checkmark 
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dartland
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
Ah, here is the paradox. Jews from around the world are raised with this dual conflict. We are torn between support of a Jewish state, and our adopted homes. It is the implicit understanding that without the state of Israel Jews have no safe haven, therefore it is imperative that we support Israel.

True, the government is no better then any other, but we have a connection to it, and are torn between support and loathing.

Indeed. Some great comments above. Don't be disillusioned -- just also don't be jaded by the seemingly interminably elusive peace. Calm and peace are nowhere in sight (as evident today) ---

There are heads of state out there who say the Holocaust didn't happen.
There are neighboring countries harboring terrorists who send their own sons into Israel to blow themselves up.
There are nearby governments refusing to recognize that the state exists.
The entire world except for 2 Central American nations doesn’t recognize Jerusalem as the capital.
There are swastikas appearing in Rome and Paris.

This is a war. It has been since 1948. And it will be until all those things above stop. Give credit to the people of Israel for wanting to live there, for going about their daily business, and for going into the IDF to defend their homeland.

Listen, I don't condone all the actions of the Israeli government. I don't believe they should use unnecessary action or force. I don't think they should promote settlements in Palestinian territory (in fact, I'm all for evacuating them). But Israel is a sovereign nation with the right and with the responsibility to its citizens and Jews worldwide to defend itself with all means possible. To defend its soldiers who are POW. To defend its border towns. While I don't agree with it all, I have to admit that the ministers in Jerusalem know what they're doing better than me, and if they saw that stopping movements at BEY was the way to go...then I believe it was the right move. No civilians killed or injured. Just a simple strategic move (to clear airspace, to stop shipments, to send a message...etc.).

So --- try not to feel disillusioned. You don't have to agree with it necessarily, but try to stand behind Israel as the Jewish state. If for nothing else, as a tribute to the 6M who perished and the thousands who have lost their lives defending it, and for our right (that has existed for only the last 50 years) to have a homeland to return to if we should wish

Quoting QR332 (Reply 16):
Well, if Israel had actually agreed to negotiate with the Lebanese prior to this about Lebanese POWs, this wouldn't have happened. Also, Israel is responding by hurting civilians, who are paying the heavy price.

Israel does not negotiate with terrorists. Neither does the US. Israel is not hurting civilians intentionally. Unlike Hizbollah, Israel is firing rockets at runways, storage tanks, and Hizbollah sites -- NOT into cities.


Just remember DtwClipper (and everyone else) -- the Hatikvah teaches hope. Without hope, Israel would not be what it is today.

Finally -- sincere good wishes to the people of Lebanon. The peaceful citizens of Lebanon are unfortunate losers in their governments inability to kick out Hizbollah. Nevertheless, such is a fact of life (as those who perished in 9/11 were unwittingly victims of US foreign policy in one way or another) and all we can hope for is a speedy end to violence and maybe coming one step closer to a lasting peace.
 
rjpieces
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 32):
Still, we are less then 2% of the population, and growing smaller.

And that is bad for all parties involved--Jews and the United States.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Beaucaire
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 29):
You can measure the greatness of a country by how thriving their Jewish community is.

So countries without a thriving jewish community can't be great in your eyes then...?
Why does everybody have to love jews (but dis-like arabs..) ?
There is literally not much difference between USA and Israel-neither in company,media or political control.So what you are implying is that countries that easily accept the implementation of jews and their control of events and politics,move towards greatness..?
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
777fan
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
which were also hit

I have yet to read any report of a house at BEY being struck.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 13):
this could have been avoided, but Israel decided to respond by hitting civilians.

This most certainly could have been avoided. Just ask Hizballah about their incursion into Israel that resulted in the kidnapping of a soldier

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 14):
I thought an Orthodox Jew would be most likely to strictly follow the Ten Commandments, ie. no killing. Since I tend to be pacifist, I became an atheist, because that's more consistent with my desire to live in peace and not let myself be consumed with genocidal hatred of my neighbors.

Even the Old Testament allows for self defense whereas the Ten Commandments is directed at wanton, reckless killing for personal gain.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 26):
Jews are guests in every other country of the world.

Guests? I know plenty of Jewish people in the US that would be pretty offended by that statement. Any tenet of basic human rights would dictate that people of all faiths are entitled to live where they wish, faith excluded.


Has anyone discussed the irony that the country in the Middle East that offers Muslims the best opportunity to live freely and prosper is Israel?!

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dtwclipper
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
the implementation of jews and their control of events and politics,move towards greatness..?

Oh, man....it didn't take long for someone to start quoting "The Protocols of Zion" and turing my query into something else.
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AirPacific747
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
Why does everybody have to love jews (but dis-like arabs..) ?

You could turn this 180 degrees around. Why does everybody have to support Lebanon and why did you change your flag?

Why even choose someone to support when you're not either Jewish or Lebanese? How can you support rockets that are being fired against Israel?

[Edited 2006-07-13 21:40:52]
 
777fan
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
So countries without a thriving jewish community can't be great in your eyes then...?

I think that a country's diversity (religious, ethnic, etc.) speaks volumes as to the amount of freedom and level of tolerance within it.


777fan
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Beaucaire
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:49 am

Nobody suggests that people have to love Lebanon,but everybody who dares to critisize Israel has to face the question if he is anti-semitic...
Because for Jews the sheer existance if Israel is their "raison d' être" -which I understand and defend. But at the same time Israel is treating other states as a collective punishment exersise in a completely dis-proportoned manner.
Nobody should start the crap -dicussion about Israel's right for self defence -nobody seriously denies that right to Israel -but that same right applies to other nations as well.
I do feel attached to Lebanon since I have learned to love the country-nothing to do with Hezbollah-and many here tend to forget that many Lebanese don't support Hezbollah but have no means to control them.
There way days where people changed their flag to danish-flag because of protest aginst the caricature episode..
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
dartland
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 40):
I think that a country's diversity (religious, ethnic, etc.) speaks volumes as to the amount of freedom and level of tolerance within it.

Not always. Look at modern day France. No offense meant, but it is a very diverse country that is having lots of problems relating to tolerance nowadays.
 
rjpieces
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 37):
Has anyone discussed the irony that the country in the Middle East that offers Muslims the best opportunity to live freely and prosper is Israel?!

It's been brought up, but most Arab A.netters are in denial about that fact.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
So countries without a thriving jewish community can't be great in your eyes then...?

See below:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 40):
I think that a country's diversity (religious, ethnic, etc.) speaks volumes as to the amount of freedom and level of tolerance within it.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
dartland
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 41):
nobody seriously denies that right to Israel

Are you kidding? The very people Israel is fighting deny that right to Israel. That is why the force they use seems disproportionate to much of the international community, but not to them.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 41):
many Lebanese don't support Hezbollah but have no means to control them.

They do. And if they don't, they must find a way. And if they can't, then Israel is going to come in and do it for them. That's how simple it is! An active Hezbollah is not an option for Israel, so whether or not Lebanon can control them, people will suffer on both sides until they are gone!
 
777fan
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 42):
Not always. Look at modern day France. No offense meant, but it is a very diverse country that is having lots of problems relating to tolerance nowadays.

Good point!
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Newark777
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 31):

This same type of confusion affects the other side of this too. It is important to divorce the Government of Lebanon (an its less desirable affiliations) from the people of Lebanon.

And I would like to think groups like Hezbollah and the rest of the Middle East. Of course, citizens like the one in the USAToday picture celebrating the kidnappings don't help the Middle East's image at all.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
Why does everybody have to love jews

That would be a change from the past few centuries.

You could also ask, why does everyone in the Middle East hate them so much?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 41):
but everybody who dares to critisize Israel has to face the question if he is anti-semitic...

People who claim anti-semetism when dealing with Israel are plain dumb, and it's best to ignore them.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Bobster2
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 37):
Even the Old Testament allows for self defense whereas the Ten Commandments is directed at wanton, reckless killing for personal gain.

Yes, the rabbis are above God, they are smarter and wiser than God, because God in His Infinite Wisdom didn't make Himself clear enough. Rabbis know when wanton, reckless killing is for self-defense and when wanton, reckless killing is for personal gain. Gimme a break.

[Edited 2006-07-13 22:03:20]
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
Beaucaire
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 44):
Are you kidding? The very people Israel is fighting deny that right to Israel. That is why the force they use seems disproportionate to much of the international community, but not to them.

You might have missed it but even Hamas has indirectly acknowledged that right for Israel twelve days ago...in a document approved by Hamas leaders inprisoned in Israel together with the newly appointed Hamas-prime Minister.
Lebanon as a state has never questioned Israel's right for existance (but not Hezbollah..)
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
777fan
Posts: 2256
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RE: For American Jews

Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 44):
And if they don't, they must find a way. And if they can't, then Israel is going to come in and do it for them. That's how simple it is! An active Hezbollah is not an option for Israel, so whether or not Lebanon can control them, people will suffer on both sides until they are gone!

Well said.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 41):
Nobody suggests that people have to love Lebanon,but everybody who dares to critisize Israel has to face the question if he is anti-semitic...

Frankly, I feel bad for Lebanon and was elated to see the Syrian military (allegedly) end its occupation of the country, only to see a transnational terror group reassert it presence in the Bekaa Valley. I seriously doubt that the majority of Lebanese citizens support Hizballah (note their minority status in that country's parliament) but at the same time, they are powerless to remove it. Nevertheless, to its credit, in many regards, Lebanon is one of the more civilized countries in the region.

The bottom line is this: when you are a member of a group (Hizballah, Hamas, Syria, Iran) that openly vows the destruction of another (Israel), you should not be surprised when the group that is threatened takes action against you, which is exactly what is happening.

777fan
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