MaverickM11
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Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:46 pm

An unexpected and refreshing spark of intelligence from the Arab League:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4049315.html

""These acts will pull the whole region back ... and we cannot simply accept them," Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal told his counterparts, according to delegates who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the meeting.

Hezbollah's attacks on Israel, including the capture of two Israeli soldiers Wednesday and rocket barrages, were "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts," one delegate said.

Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, he said."
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
rjpieces
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:51 pm

Thanks for posting this...It has been ignored on A.net, but clearly conservative Sunni regimes are scared of rising Iranian influence and are acting accordingly....

Weird coalition something like this creates.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
It has been ignored on A.net

Yeah I thought it would be better covered, seeing as this seems to be the first time the Arab leadership has ever shown anything but 100% support for the enemies of Israel.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
kanebear
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:32 am

Iran is making some big moves in the region and IMO those regimes are concerned as they believe (possibly rightfully so) that after Israel, Iran will be after them next.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:58 am

Interesting the way some of the nations' lined up on Hezbollah: the P.A. lined up against them with Saudi Arabia, after themselves kidnapping an Israeli soldier; and Qatar, allegedly a stout U.S. ally, backing the terrorists.

And poor Syria stuck in the middle.

It's nice to see that there is at least a smidgen of common sense among these members finally.

And I agree somewhat with Kanebear: I think they are terribly concerned about Iran. They should, in my estimatin, worry more about Iran than Israel. If they were REALLY smart, they'd make peace with Israel, and have Israel on their side in any future conflict with Iran.

But that's asking too much.
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qr332
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Interesting the way some of the nations' lined up on Hezbollah: the P.A. lined up against them with Saudi Arabia, after themselves kidnapping an Israeli soldier; and Qatar, allegedly a stout U.S. ally, backing the terrorists.

The PA did not kidnap the soldier, Hamas did. The PA are cowrads - they never convey the feelings of the Palestinian people, they only try to say what will make Israel happy. Qatar are taking a strong stance with both the Gaza and Lebanon issues that I support 100%. The entire Arab League are a bunch of cowards... civilians are dying in Lebanon yet they don't have the balls to say anything about that.

Falcon, so if they are a close US ally, they have to support Israel as well? Qatar is free to take its own stances on issues, it does not need to follow the US's foreign policy.

To begin with, Qatar's resolution (which, surprise surprise, was vetoed by the US) against Israel was addressing how violent and destructive their attacks on Gaza were, which were 100% fair. For your information, Falcon, the resolution called for the immediate release of the soldier as well as the immediate withdrawal of Israel.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...23-92F8-4496-97CC-BCD31B18B4CC.htm

As for the Lebanon issue, I also support their stance - that Israel is the aggressor. When a country replies to military action by attacking civilians, damn right this is the stance that should be taken.
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...sion=1&template_id=57&parent_id=56
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windshear
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
Thanks for posting this...It has been ignored on A.net,

Indeed it has, I had been lurking around looking for a post like this as well.
Did you also hear that Saudi Arabia blames both Hamas and the Hizbollah for this conflict?

And this is Saudi Arabia, a country that doesn't even recognize Israel...

I also heard that Jordan and Egypt supported Israel in this, not necessarily 100%, but this support caused a conflict at the Arab League.

This is sure making things happen, this crisis!

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
An unexpected and refreshing spark of intelligence from the Arab League

Let me assure you that the Arab people at this very minute feel ashamed, disgusted, and deeply alarmed by this unprecedented cowardice of the Arab regimes, who effectively have been reduced to puppets.

The Arab street is 100% behind Hezbollah. Make no mistake!

Quoting Amr Moussa (Egyptian foreign minister) at the Arab League press conference:

"We've been lied to since Madrid, we've been lied to since Oslo"

DUH????????

What was refreshing was watching Al-Manar TV about an hour ago and listening to the Lebanese ex-education minister slam Arab regimes (especially in the Gulf) for marrying 100 women, loosing billions in Casinos, and not even tuning to hear the news while they indulge at their summer retreats in Malaga.... THAT was refreshing to listen to.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
windshear
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
The PA are cowrads - they never convey the feelings of the Palestinian people, they only try to say what will make Israel happy.

Amr you should know better! I am really appauled at how you see this.
Abbas has been under direct threat by Hamas and the rest of the gangs, and still is!

When Abbas tries to take steps that might secure a better future for the Palestinians, he is too pro-Israeli... How can that be?

This is getting really rediculous, just because he sees that terror ensures no good future, he is not "conveying the feelings of the Palestinian people"?.. Well as much as I want to understand you, how can this be the light at the end of the tunnel for your people?? Hows about jobs?? Food?? Higher living standards??

Or do you only want the world to know how you feel?

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Falcon84
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
The PA did not kidnap the soldier, Hamas did.

Uh, Hamas IS the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian people elected them. Ergo, they kidnapped the soldier.

You can't separate the two. And I do agree. They're cowards.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Falcon, so if they are a close US ally, they have to support Israel as well?

Didn't say that, I believe. I just think it's strange how they divide went. I would have thought Hamas would have come down squarly on the side of Hezbollah, and Qatar would have been aligned with Saudi.

Don't read anymore into it than that. I find the way it shook out quite interesting, that's all.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
As for the Lebanon issue, I also support their stance - that Israel is the aggressor.

I do not. Hezbollah doing cross-border incursions, and harrassing Israel whenever they want. They are the aggressors. That is obvious to me.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
I also support their stance - that Israel is the aggressor.

How does Hezbollah lobbing rockets and kidnapping soldiers make Israel the aggressor? Is this like blaming the rape victim for "dressing slutty"?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
qr332
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 8):
When Abbas tries to take steps that might secure a better future for the Palestinians, he is too pro-Israeli... How can that be?

It is because while Gaza is suffering and is being subject to extremeley agressive actions, instead of standing with his people, he is too busy kissing Israeli ass.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 8):
This is getting really rediculous, just because he sees that terror ensures no good future, he is not "conveying the feelings of the Palestinian people"?.. Well as much as I want to understand you, how can this be the light at the end of the tunnel for your people?? Hows about jobs?? Food?? Higher living standards??

What does that have to do with anything? Most Palestinians are against Israel and their invasion of Lebanon, and are completley against Israeli attacks on civilians (which they deal with first hand everyday), while he is placing the blame on Hezbollah instead of Israel whose reply ot the attack was completley unproportional.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Uh, Hamas IS the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian people elected them. Ergo, they kidnapped the soldier.

Shows how much you know. Hamas is currently leading the government, but when it is very seperate from the PA. The PA are pro-Fatah, not Hamas, and they do not get along with Hamas.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Didn't say that, I believe. I just think it's strange how they divide went. I would have thought Hamas would have come down squarly on the side of Hezbollah, and Qatar would have been aligned with Saudi.

Don't read anymore into it than that. I find the way it shook out quite interesting, that's all.

Hamas is with Hezbollah, but the PA isn't - its very complicated, but the views of the PA are different to those of Hamas. As for Qatar and Saudi, the two governments do not get along all that much.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
I do not. Hezbollah doing cross-border incursions, and harrassing Israel whenever they want. They are the aggressors. That is obvious to me.

But Israel replied by hitting civilian targets and infrastructure, and escelated the war a lot more than it should have been escalated - also, they are clearly being much, MUCH more aggressive.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
How does Hezbollah lobbing rockets and kidnapping soldiers make Israel the aggressor? Is this like blaming the rape victim for "dressing slutty"?

See, that is exaclty the result of the US media - did you know that Hezbollah started lobbing rockets only after Israel attacked Lebanese cities and civilian targets?

Now, lets use the rape anology - this is like the police going in and not only trying to find the rapist, but arresting his entire neighbourhood and burning it to the ground on the way.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
did you know that Hezbollah started lobbing rockets only after Israel attacked Lebanese cities and civilian targets?

When, and why was Israel attacking civilian targets?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
windshear
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
he is too busy kissing Israeli ass.

This is really really really out there... No words...

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):

while he is placing the blame on Hezbollah instead of Israel whose reply ot the attack was completley unproportional.

This is such a blind view upon this, especially coming from you. Even Saudi Arabia blames the Hamas and Hezbollah for this. This comes not out of nothing Amr, this has been a long long long time in the making...

Israel has been pulling back since 2000, first out of Lebanon then Gaza and finally the West Bank when possible.
However with Hamas and Hizbollah still determined to destroy Israel and "push the Jews into the ocean", this war is not only a response to the kidnappings, this is a war against both Hamas and Hizbollah, they have now so clearly prooven that their wishes are not to make peace, but to built up arms, and calculate newer and fancier ways of hitting Israel.

Claiming and criticizing this is for being a response to a kidnapping is beyond untrue. Israel has had it, and will continue until both Hamas and Hizbollah are no more, and that is final.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
When, and why was Israel attacking civilian targets?

To instil terror in the heart of Lebanese civilians in the area.

Objective? Drive them out, "conquer" the area and claim it as theirs.
"Conquer" is the exact word they chose, check the other thread.
By the way, Israel fired at families while they were fleeing, in their cars! 23 members of one family were butchered by an Israeli Apache at Marwaheen...

This looks all too familiar. The Israeli terrorist/expansionist regime did it in 1948, 1967, and want the whole world to sit back and watch as it pushes for more territory. Ain't happening!

Israel & IOF: Fine State Terrorism
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MaverickM11
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 13):
This is really really really out there... No words...

Speaking of out there:

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
The Israeli terrorist/expansionist regime did it in 1948, 1967



Quoting Windshear (Reply 13):
until both Hamas and Hizbollah are no more

...Which will be better for everyone...except for Hamas/Hizbollah members of course Silly
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 7):
The Arab street is 100% behind Hezbollah. Make no mistake!

To what end is this support given ? What is the objective the Arab Street hopes for Hammas to acheive?

If Hammas is the point of Hope for the Arab Street then thay are truly hopeless.
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windshear
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Which will be better for everyone...except for Hamas/Hizbollah members of course

 checkmark 

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
The Israeli terrorist/expansionist regime did it in 1948, 1967

Ha if you think that one is out there look here at what EurostarVA wrote in this thread: So When Does Israel Bomb Syria? (by AirRyan Jul 17 2006 in Non Aviation)

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 26):

Hezbollah is a heroic project designed to contain the expansionist Zionism movement. Most Arab regimes today are corrupt, anti-democratic, and by no means represent their people or uphold their interests. Furthermore, Hezbollah is a well-organized and systematic organization. Hezbollah are Hamas are 2 Arab political / military / charity GRASSROOT organizations brave enough to face Israel/America. For this reason Israel wants to liquidate both.

This is really really sicko style.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
rjpieces
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
It is because while Gaza is suffering and is being subject to extremeley agressive actions, instead of standing with his people, he is too busy kissing Israeli ass.

And as Gaza is suffering, what are YOU doing for your people besides advocating more bloodshed? On a nice vacation to the United States I see, just like your average Palestinian right?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
civilians are dying in Lebanon yet they don't have the balls to say anything about that.

Hmm, I wonder why. Perhaps they WANT Iranian influence gone as much as Israel?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Falcon84
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
Objective? Drive them out, "conquer" the area and claim it as theirs.

They've never had any desire to claim Lebanon. They simply want the Lebanese government to take care of it's territory, and drive the terrorists scum from their territory.

If Hezbollah is wiped out, and the northern border of Israel is secure, none of this is necessary.
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qr332
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
When, and why was Israel attacking civilian targets?

When? Every day since this conflict has started. They have hit BEY (if they really wanted to disable it, the runways are enough, but what reasons are there to hit the main terminal?). Did you know at least 179 civilians (in Lebanon) have died so far from Israel? This is in the south Beirut suburbs and in south Lebanon - they have killed fleeing civilians who were trying to get out of Lebanon! As for why, that is a question I cannot answer, because it sure as hell is not punishing Hezbollah - it is instead punishing the Lebanese people.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 13):
This is such a blind view upon this, especially coming from you. Even Saudi Arabia blames the Hamas and Hezbollah for this. This comes not out of nothing Amr, this has been a long long long time in the making...

Israel has been pulling back since 2000, first out of Lebanon then Gaza and finally the West Bank when possible.
However with Hamas and Hizbollah still determined to destroy Israel and "push the Jews into the ocean", this war is not only a response to the kidnappings, this is a war against both Hamas and Hizbollah, they have now so clearly prooven that their wishes are not to make peace, but to built up arms, and calculate newer and fancier ways of hitting Israel.

Claiming and criticizing this is for being a response to a kidnapping is beyond untrue. Israel has had it, and will continue until both Hamas and Hizbollah are no more, and that is final.

Oh please, Windshear! You want to talk about a blind view? Lets start with why both kidnappings happened - Hezbollah did it to force an exchange of the hundreds of Lebanese POWs who Israel refuses to even negotiate with Lebanon about, and Hamas did it because Israel was killing its members and civilians in Gaza left and out (the beach incident anyone?). Now, in both cases the attacks were on military targets, and in both cases Israel has responded with brutal force which damaged the civilian infrastructure and which killed civilians much more than it did harm the groups. This isn't about "pushing the Jews into the sea", which a lot of pro-Israel Jews love to claim in order to make Israel look like a victim, this is much more than that.

As for pulling out of Lebanon, who are you kidding, Boaz? The Lebanon pullout occured because Hezbollah forced Israel into it, and what Israel did before that has to be some of the worst war crimes since WWII! You have the Qana shelling, the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, the bombing of Beirut which led to the murder of thousands of civilians, and much more! Is this all fair in your eyes? Israel contributed a lot to the destruction of Lebanon and Beirut in the civil war, and it will not be forgotten.

As for Palestine, again, who are you kidding? Gaza has absolutley no value to the Israelis - it is an overpopulated strip of land full of people and with no real value. The pullout, IMO, was nothing more than trying to make the Israelis look like they are really interested in peace. When it comes to the West Bank, it is a completley different issue - since the pullout, more and more settlements have been commisioned and are being built, especially around Jerusalem. Israel has not pulled out of ANY of the West Bank, and they are continuing the construction of the seperation wall right through stolen Palestinian land - East Jerusalem is still being surrounded by more settlements to block it off from the rest of the West Bank, and the issue is getting more and more out of hand. Don't try to make it look like they give a damn about peace.

If anyone has clearly proven that they don't care about peace by their actions and their words, it is Israel. "We'll turn back the clock by 20 years" - real peaceful  Yeah sure

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
To what end is this support given ? What is the objective the Arab Street hopes for Hammas to acheive?

If Hammas is the point of Hope for the Arab Street then thay are truly hopeless

Who the hell is talking about Hamas? We are talking about Hezbollah, and the Arab world is behind them because they are only group with enough balls to stand up to Israeli aggression.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 18):
And as Gaza is suffering, what are YOU doing for your people besides advocating more bloodshed? On a nice vacation to the United States I see, just like your average Palestinian right?

RJ, are you jelous of my life or something? You obsess over it so much, it is incredible! You really think people in Gaza would support Israel in any way, especially after all they have done to them since 1967?! And also, how the hell am I advocating violence? I am speaking out against Israeli violence, not advocating any kind of violence.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
Hmm, I wonder why. Perhaps they WANT Iranian influence gone as much as Israel?

Iranian influence on who, exactly? What does that have to do with speaking out against Israeli attacks on civilians?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
AGM100
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
Who the hell is talking about Hamas?

O shit my fault ... is their a difference.?


Guess thier is , if they ever kick Israel out then Hammas and Hezbolla could kill each other for a while. I wonder what would happen if Israel just gave up and left "Palastine"? God what a mess that would be , who would claim it ?
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
The PA.. ...only try to say what will make Israel happy.

 rotfl 

Tell me - what color is the sky in your world?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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qr332
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
O shit my fault ... is their a difference.?

The fact that you don't know the differnece shows how little you know about the conflict.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Guess thier is , if they ever kick Israel out then Hammas and Hezbolla could kill each other for a while. I wonder what would happen if Israel just gave up and left "Palastine"? God what a mess that would be , who would claim it ?

Actually it wouldn't be much of a mess - there are millions of Palestinian refugees who would return to their land, and I am pretty sure none of the neighbouring countries would want any part of it; they would probably be glad to get rid of the refugees.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
Tell me - what color is the sky in your world?

 Yeah sure Please, don't embaress yourself - the PA, today, try to make themselves look good in the eyes of Israel and the US at every chance they get. Tell me, if the PA is such a terrorist hugging organisation, why is there fighting between them and Hamas?
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 24):
Actually it wouldn't be much of a mess - there are millions of Palestinian refugees who would return to their land, and I am pretty sure none of the neighbouring countries would want any part of it; they would probably be glad to get rid of the refugees.

So QR out of curiosity, how do you classify "palastinians"?

Historically speaking, prior to racist and religious warping of the middle east, it classified anyone living in the region that was under british/french mandate up till the 40's. This was classified as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Athiest and what ever else. Basically it was all People on that piece of rock, regardless of race and religion. The fact that the nation of Israel exists now is that the World was trying to figure out how to keep the Muslim and Jewish sects from fighting, prior to the creation of Israel.
So please tell me how your "Palestine" would look. How would Israel just dissapear?



//self edit

[Edited 2006-07-18 01:22:37]
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
greaser
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
When? Every day since this conflict has started. They have hit BEY (if they really wanted to disable it, the runways are enough, but what reasons are there to hit the main terminal?). Did you know at least 179 civilians (in Lebanon) have died so far from Israel? This is in the south Beirut suburbs and in south Lebanon - they have killed fleeing civilians who were trying to get out of Lebanon! As for why, that is a question I cannot answer, because it sure as hell is not punishing Hezbollah - it is instead punishing the Lebanese people.

I'm not trying to further aggravate things here, but i think it's clear to the world that had Hezbollah not kidnapped the 2 soldiers AND not returned them, none of this would have happen. Maybe instead of further escalating the conflict, the Lebanese government should order Hezbollah to return the soldiers alive (thats if they have any power at all). Pride and the show of courage will only lead to the deaths of many more innocents. I cannot tell you how many times BOTH sides have placed pride over peace.
Furthermore, Lebanon is picking a fight it cannot win. This is not the way to get Brownie points with the rest of the M.E. It is very, very simple. Give back the soldiers alive, and it'll all stop. The decision is a 800 pound gorilla in Hezbollah's room.
p.s., innocent israelis have also died in this conflict.
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
Lets start with why both kidnappings happened - Hezbollah did it to force an exchange of the hundreds of Lebanese POWs

Let's Be honest. These prisoners are there for a reason. I am sure that not every single one is guilty of terrorism but I will bet any amount of money that most of them have been involved in some terrorist activities. On top of that, these prisoners are catered to under the geneva conventions rules. They are all accounted for in terms of where they are located. They are constantly visited by the Red Cross......WHERE THE HELL ARE THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS???? Why hasn't the red cross been able to visit them to verify that they are safe and in healthy condition????
 
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 24):
Please, don't embaress yourself

..said the guy who can't spell correctly...  sarcastic 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
rjpieces
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Guess thier is , if they ever kick Israel out then Hammas and Hezbolla could kill each other for a while. I wonder what would happen if Israel just gave up and left "Palastine"? God what a mess that would be , who would claim it ?

This is an often overlooked but excellent question. Many people claim that there would be peace if this happened but it could not be more wrong. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, there would be a HUGE power vacuum and every one of its neighbors would rush to claim their share. Palestinian nationalism would disappear overnight, that's for sure.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 24):
Tell me, if the PA is such a terrorist hugging organisation, why is there fighting between them and Hamas?

Now that Israeli no longer occupies Gaza, there is a power-sharing dispute. Btw, QR, so you do support Hamas over Fatah?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
qr332
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 25):
So QR out of curiosity, how do you classify "palastinians"?

Palestinians are Palestinian Arabs who come from historical Palestine, i.e. modern Israel, the West Bank & the Gaza Strip.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 25):
Historically speaking, prior to racist and religious warping of the middle east, it classified anyone living in the region that was under british/french mandate up till the 40's. This was classified as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Athiest and what ever else. Basically it was all People on that piece of rock, regardless of race and religion. The fact that the nation of Israel exists now is that the World was trying to figure out how to keep the Muslim and Jewish sects from fighting, prior to the creation of Israel.
So please tell me how your "Palestine" would look. How would Israel just dissapear?

I was going along with what AGM was saying. For your information, prior to the creation of Israel, if you look back 50 years from its Independence, there was a tiny amount of Jews; within that small frame, tens of thousands immigrated to Palestine and eventually got their state on land that wasn't theres to begin with. I am not going to get into this argument about pre-1948, but Palestinians are not just anyone who happened to live there before Israel declared Independence - they are the people who have firm roots in the country that date back to pre-1948.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 26):
Furthermore, Lebanon is picking a fight it cannot win. This is not the way to get Brownie points with the rest of the M.E. It is very, very simple. Give back the soldiers alive, and it'll all stop. The decision is a 800 pound gorilla in Hezbollah's room.
p.s., innocent israelis have also died in this conflict

Lebanon did not pick the fight, Israel did. Why can't Israel negotiate for the prisoners or only hit Hezbollah? There is no need for all of this...

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 27):
Let's Be honest. These prisoners are there for a reason. I am sure that not every single one is guilty of terrorism but I will bet any amount of money that most of them have been involved in some terrorist activities. On top of that, these prisoners are catered to under the geneva conventions rules. They are all accounted for in terms of where they are located. They are constantly visited by the Red Cross......WHERE THE HELL ARE THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS???? Why hasn't the red cross been able to visit them to verify that they are safe and in healthy condition????

So tell me, JFK, if we are being honest, why haven't they been tried? Also, these people have not been captured for terrorism, most of them were captured during the civil war for merely fighting Israel. As for the two Israeli soldiers, i'm sure their conditions are no worse than Palestinian and Lebanese ones. Just ask many of the former inmates of Israeli prisons - many of which I have heard stories from myself.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 29):
This is an often overlooked but excellent question. Many people claim that there would be peace if this happened but it could not be more wrong. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, there would be a HUGE power vacuum and every one of its neighbors would rush to claim their share. Palestinian nationalism would disappear overnight, that's for sure.

Would there be a giant power vaccum? Definatley. Would Palestinian nationalism dissapear? Never - Palestinian nationalism has to be one of the strongest in the world, and it is not something that would be lost overnight.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 29):
Now that Israeli no longer occupies Gaza, there is a power-sharing dispute. Btw, QR, so you do support Hamas over Fatah?

It is more of a power sharing dispute, it is a dispute of ideologies, approaches and a desire for power. Personally, I say screw both of them - Fatah is so corrupt it is disgusting, and Hamas are too militant in their approach. But, given the choice, I would choose Hamas over Fatah any day, just like the Palestinian people did.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
ly7e7
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 30):
Why can't Israel negotiate for the prisoners or only hit Hezbollah?

Because we've done it beofre and it got us nowhere. We have to put the end to this kind of tactics, especially if it involves attack on an undisputed land.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
windshear
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:26 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
Lets start with why both kidnappings happened - Hezbollah did it to force an exchange of the hundreds of Lebanese POWs who Israel refuses to even negotiate with Lebanon about, and Hamas did it because Israel was killing its members and civilians in Gaza left and out (the beach incident anyone?).

Well this tells me that you see Hamas as heroic, which tells me you are out of reach, sorry to conclude this, but I have never ever thought you thought so highly of Hamas.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
This isn't about "pushing the Jews into the sea", which a lot of pro-Israel Jews love to claim in order to make Israel look like a victim, this is much more than that.

Pro-Israeli? Then Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa martyrs brigades, Ahmadinejad, Hizbollah and Al Qaeda are all pro-Israeli... Sure makes me feel a whole lot less worried  Smile

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
As for pulling out of Lebanon, who are you kidding, Boaz? The Lebanon pullout occured because Hezbollah forced Israel into it,

I am not kidding you! Israel pulled out, this is what I wrote.

No matter what!
The Hizbollah had been arming them selves and fighting to make Israel leave Southern Lebanon, and it happened... Now instead of rebuilding and enjoying their victory, they go and set up rocket ramps and increase their forces, but never stop firing into Israel... They are so stupid it is incredible!

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
Gaza has absolutley no value to the Israelis - it is an overpopulated strip of land full of people and with no real value.

 checkmark 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
The pullout, IMO, was nothing more than trying to make the Israelis look like they are really interested in peace.

Oh really? No matter what you think or how much you mistrust the Israelis for having malicious agendas- they did pull out did they not?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 21):
Don't try to make it look like they give a damn about peace.

I am not trying to make anything look like something else, frankly my abillities to run propaganda in this forum are really overrated, all I am doing, is expressing my views, and of course why I have them and what they are, now if they are compelling to you, then I understand, but don't bark at me for having them.

Israel does not only want peace, they need it and crave it!

Quoting QR332 (Reply 30):
Lebanon did not pick the fight, Israel did. Why can't Israel negotiate for the prisoners or only hit Hezbollah? There is no need for all of this...

Hizbollah started this, not Israel... With the "disproportional use of force" as you call Israel's response to the Hamas kidnapping, Hizbollah many days later, should not have expected any less, unless they expected Israel to have been weakened since the Hamas kidnapping.

Now about the prisoners, my G-d habibi! These people are terrorists, have you any knowledge of what Hizbollah has done in the past?? If it were shoplifting or if they were political prisoners like North Korea has them, I would agree with you, but these are terrorists, all trialed and convicted in a court of law.

But on a second and final note though, if necessary a swap might be ok'd, but not through intimidation, threats or as a ransom, no only through the one thing you should never expect from a terrorist group: Diplomacy

Wa Salam.
Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
but clearly conservative Sunni regimes are scared of rising Iranian influence and are acting accordingly....

NOT "scared" and it not only is the conservative ones, but also modern and progressive ones. The Iranian influence is NOT highly appreciated

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 3):
IMO those regimes are concerned

it is NOT just the "regimes"

Quoting Windshear (Reply 6):
Did you also hear that Saudi Arabia blames both Hamas and the Hizbollah for this conflict?
-
And this is Saudi Arabia, a country that doesn't even recognize Israel...

Applied common sense and recognition of Israel are TWO separate aspects and NOT related

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 7):
The Arab street is 100% behind Hezbollah

hardly. People in most places, at least outside Palestine, quite well realize that it is a conservative, clericalist, restrictive, fundamentalist party first, and second by being obedient to "hints" from Tehran not exactly serving Arab interests, and third a source of instability (not just these past days). Many also quite clearly are aware of what Hizbullah in places they govern makes with cinemas, entertainment facilities, restaurants serving alcoholic beverages etc. .
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:48 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
hardly. People in most places, at least outside Palestine, quite well realize that it is a conservative, clericalist, restrictive, fundamentalist party first, and second by being obedient to "hints" from Tehran not exactly serving Arab interests, and third a source of instability (not just these past days). Many also quite clearly are aware of what Hizbullah in places they govern makes with cinemas, entertainment facilities, restaurants serving alcoholic beverages etc.

You must be dillusional. Which Arab street are you talking about? The one near the Casino in Jounieh? Thought so! For a reality check, try visiting Cairo, Doha, Damascus and Amman.

Quit your rubbish and go out to help your brethren instead of falling for the israfascist propaganda. Lebanon is diverse, beautiful, and united against the Israeli aggression.

With the ongoing pounding of ambulances and MORE innocents today, the Zionists in Yafa are proving their real aim: To check Lebanese rebirth and rivalry.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 34):
Which Arab street

Beirut, Alexandria, Cairo, Dubai
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 34):
Lebanon is diverse, beautiful, and united against the Israeli aggression.

of course, but this does NOT mean that they appreciate Hizbullah. The Lebanon of the future will need to have a small but credible air-force, a small but credible naval force and a good anti-aircraft force. Lebanon otherwise takes the risk always to be the scapegoat whenever the Israelis get angry.
 
windshear
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
Applied common sense and recognition of Israel are TWO separate aspects and NOT related

Well no not in the sense, but it would be expected by Saudis to blame Israel no matter what... That is why it is interesting.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
The Lebanon of the future will need to have a small but credible air-force, a small but credible naval force and a good anti-aircraft force.

and most of not to be scared to exercise sovereignty of the government over the entire territory of Lebanon and if there's need to do so prevent some bunch of islamic thugs & their private army from creating some sort of country within a country.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
and most of not to be scared to exercise sovereignty of the government over the entire territory of Lebanon and if there's need to do so prevent some bunch of islamic thugs & their private army from creating some sort of country within a country

interesting idea ! to exert sovereignty of the government over the entire territory, adequate security forces are a pre-condition. Imagine that I on my 2004 visit to BEY-airport mis-interpreted that "air-force" as some police-helicopters at first ! The first priority for such military forces however will be to secure Beirut, Sa'ida and Tripoli .
 
AGM100
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 24):
Tell me, if the PA is such a terrorist hugging organisation, why is there fighting between them and Hamas?

QR I believe and hope that Abbas may have some vision of co exisitence with Israel. I know that estabilishing a Palistinian country that can live an prosper beside Isreal would be the best outcome for the people.
When I lived in Israel in the 80's we had "Arabs" (Assume they were Palastinian) working in Isreal with us non Jews. My impression was that Isreal had basically a open border policy at that time and ecouraged foriegn workers. Would a return to this type of coexsitnace not be positive for everyone their?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
Abbas may have some vision of co exisitence with Israel.

he not only has such a "vision" he already is and has been practicing co-existence with them. He, at an appropriate moment will dissolve the parliament and arrange re-elections. And the result of the next elections will reduce Hamas to actual size, which means without an absolute majority but possible required for a coalition government. And then, the cards will be mixed again.
 
AGM100
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:29 am

I found this link last night and spent some time reading though it. It is long and detailed but has some very interesting items. Egypt/ Israel /EU/World Bank etc. have done alot to promote a viable state for the "Palastinians". The Intefada has hijacked the peoples chance for stability... period.

www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/med/2003/eng/wbg/wbg.pdf
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42):
The Intefada has hijacked the peoples chance for stability... period.

WHAT "period" ? the intifada is over, and stability is what needs to be achieved. It is not an easy matter, and President Abbas may be forced to dissolve the parliament and arrange new elections, in order to get a new majority. Presumably a coalition government which has to tackle the matters anew. There in history are "periods" but never "full-stops" .
 
AGM100
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
WHAT "period" ?

My point was that most Muslims blame Israel for oppressing the PAL. But the IMF report shows substantial economic growth up until the latest intefada. At that point Israel shuts down the border and pulls the plug so to speak.

I know that the PAL must heavily rely on Isreal as a trading partner , this tends to create a lopsided power strucure. However , if the PAL would give it time they would soon be able to strengthen into more independance. The Intefada destroys any chances of that.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
rjpieces
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 30):
Would Palestinian nationalism dissapear? Never - Palestinian nationalism has to be one of the strongest in the world, and it is not something that would be lost overnight.

Uh huh, I truly think Palestinian nationalism would disappear if Israel disappeared. Palestinian nationalism did not develop until Zionism took off. And besides, let's see how well Palestinian nationalism would survive against let's say Syria for example.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 30):
It is more of a power sharing dispute, it is a dispute of ideologies, approaches and a desire for power.

Thank you for making my point after disputing it. It's all about power.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 30):
But, given the choice, I would choose Hamas over Fatah any day, just like the Palestinian people did.

Well don't be surprised then when the rest of the world abandons the Palestinians.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 34):
You must be dillusional. Which Arab street are you talking about? The one near the Casino in Jounieh? Thought so! For a reality check, try visiting Cairo, Doha, Damascus and Amman.

This Arab street:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

With the exception of the Palestinians, the Arab world appears to be united in blaming Iran and Syria for the fighting in Lebanon. Until last week, Arab political analysts and government officials were reluctant to criticize Hizbullah in public. But now that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah and his top aides are in hiding, an anti-Hizbullah coalition is emerging not only in Lebanon, but in several other Arab countries as well.

Similar sentiments have been reflected in a series of articles that appeared in the Arab media over the past few days. Some of the articles appear as if they had been written by Israeli government spokesmen. Ironically, the fact that Hizbullah and Hamas are now on the defensive has encouraged many Arabs to come out against the two groups in public.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
My impression was that Isreal had basically a open border policy at that time and ecouraged foriegn workers. Would a return to this type of coexsitnace not be positive for everyone their?

Yes and those days are permanently over much to the detriment of the Palestinians. Just like every Western country has a demand for "imported labor", Israel provided many opportunities for those type of jobs for Palestinians. Since the second Intifada started, Israel has started importing workers from Thailand and elsewhere to live in Israel for several years on a guest-worker type program. And the Palestinians sit at home with little to no work now.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 44):
know that the PAL must heavily rely on Isreal as a trading partner , this tends to create a lopsided power strucure. However , if the PAL would give it time they would soon be able to strengthen into more independance. The Intefada destroys any chances of that.

the Intifada is over and no longer relevant. The Intifada in fact was the result of the stalemate brought about by Israeli politics, but launched (by Arafat) without concept, planning or analysis. In any peace-scenario, Israel will be economically dominating as it has the most modern industry in the whole region (including Turkey and Greece). THAT is the reason why it already now is an important trading partner of Egypt, Jordan and Qatar.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 45):
With the exception of the Palestinians, the Arab world appears to be united in blaming Iran and Syria for the fighting in Lebanon.

well, it is simple. As elsewhere, also people in the Arab World realize that it has been the Hizbullah-shit which resulted in the present mess. People are angry about the Israelis in so far as HOW FAR & HOW EXTREME they proceeded, but quite well realize that Hizbullah and Iran caused the mess. And I btw. would NOT "except" the Palestinians. Most Palestinians know that quite well, and do NOT forget that Hamas only got a 55% majority due to a protest vote and NOT really due to such a support for their program.
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
This Arab street:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

With the exception of the Palestinians, the Arab world appears to be united in blaming Iran and Syria for the fighting in Lebanon. Until last week, Arab political analysts and government officials were reluctant to criticize Hizbullah in public. But now that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah and his top aides are in hiding, an anti-Hizbullah coalition is emerging not only in Lebanon, but in several other Arab countries as well.

Get a life, an Israeli newspaper is hardly un-biased surveys in light of recent events.
In related news, the island-state of Bahrain witnessed its LARGEST demonstration ever 2 hours ago. Demonstrators showed solidarity with Hezbollah and the people of South Lebanon.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 47):
Demonstrators showed solidarity with Hezbollah and the people of South Lebanon.

you might tell me, WHAT is the majority on Bahrain ? Just a hint: the rulers on Bahrain are Sunnis !
 
AGM100
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RE: Arab League Split On Support For Hezbollah

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 47):
Get a life

Really seems like good advise for the demonstrators in Bahrain.  hypnotized 
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