windshear
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Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:59 am

Olmert just adressed Knesset, and said that this is a war which Israel did not want, nor start, will go on until the infrastructure of both Hamas and Hizbollah is no more...

Some quotes:

'Israel didn't ask for these confrontations, but there were those who interpreted our will for peace as a sign of weakness,'

Israel has no territorial argument, neither on the southern or northern border,�

We hope that one of these days we will achieve a peace agreement, to the mutual benefit of both sides,�

The current fight is against terror organizations in Lebanon and Gaza. These organizations are subcontractors, acting under the authorization, encouragement and funding of terror supporting organizations and opponents of peace - the axis of evil that runs from Tehran to Damascus,�

We are standing at a moment of national truth. Will we agree to live under the threat of the axis of evil, or will we hew our internal strength and show determination and level-headedness? Our answer is known to each and every Israel, and today it echoes in the entire region. We are not seeking war and confrontation, but when they are necessary we will not avoid them. We have the right to our freedom, and when we have to, we know how to fight for and defend that freedom,�


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3277405,00.html

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
windshear
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:05 am

News bulliting from Ha'aretz:

Saudi Arabia blames Hizbollah, Hamas for IDF offensive (Reuters)

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:12 am

I'd say we all misjudged Olhmert.

Who knew he was at George Bush's level of incompetence when it comes to foreign policy?


Killing and War is so sexy to Israeli voters. He's a tough guy now!
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 2):
I'd say we all misjudged Olhmert.

Who knew he was at George Bush's level of incompetence when it comes to foreign policy?


Killing and War is so sexy to Israeli voters. He's a tough guy now!

Artie, perhaps you should quit injecting your political vitreol on every thread, as it only serves to highlight your naive ignorance of world affairs.

[Edited 2006-07-17 19:26:10]
 
windshear
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 2):
Killing and War is so sexy to Israeli voters. He's a tough guy now!

Jeez aren't you a know-it-all  Yeah sure

Cynicism is such a feeble humoristic attempt to ignore aspects of real life, or so I see it.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:26 am

Perhaps?........Not

If the truth hurts that's your problem not mine.
 
windshear
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 5):
Perhaps?........Not

If the truth hurts that's your problem not mine.

Ok... But why do you think you are speaking the truth? And how do you know if I am hurting?

I feel neither pain nor lack of insight.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:33 am

No Artie,

You clearly have no clue.

There is nothing in Olmert's statement that is unreasonable.

You are a liberal who would would be willing sacrafice the lives and existance of all Israelis to a bunch of terrorists in the name of political correctness, and try to make political points in the process.

I find that disguesting.

[Edited 2006-07-17 19:33:44]

[Edited 2006-07-17 19:34:40]
 
solarix
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting ArtieFlufkin (Reply 2):
I'd say we all misjudged Olhmert.

Who knew he was at George Bush's level of incompetence when it comes to foreign policy?


Killing and War is so sexy to Israeli voters. He's a tough guy now!

So what's your solution Mr. ArtieFlufkin ? Should Israel just call it quits and replace with flag with a yellow and green one? Your an idiot if you think they are doing this to win in the next election. Israel was attacked and they responded. As the old saying goes "mess with the best... die like the rest".
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
TNNH
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:41 am

I think survival is "sexy" to Israeli voters, at least thats how they interpret this current response. It appears you feel differently?
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:45 am

OK PMMM

Doesn't look like your big into addressing the issues.

You just want me to stop posting ideas you don't agree with.

So " I clearly have no clue"..... Good one.

You'll notice, I never said posted one derogatory remark on this thread towards a fellow poster.

Again the answer is no. Continue with your ad hominem attacks. I've got a tough skin. And I'm gonna speak my mind.
 
Sonic99
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:51 am

What a bunch of entrenched morons.

Is it sooooooo hard (I mean, really!!!) to admit that this Olmert dropped the ball on this one?

He's got no beef with Lebanon, yet his army is now the process of destroying it. He's got a beef with Damascus, but his planes only buzz the guy's palace there.

For God's sake, put your pride aside guys and look at reality. Condemn bad and reward good!

If Olmert and his policy guys had any brains he'd ask for a joint Lebanase gov't/Israeli strike and elimination of these Hezbollah and not a unilateral destruction of a state attempting to fight some phoney war!!! Can't people see that? Instead these guys go ahead and willy-nilly attempt to fix everything themselves.

For God's sake, people on both sides of the border would be breathing easier right now.
 
MattRB
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Sonic99 (Reply 12):
If Olmert and his policy guys had any brains he'd ask for a joint Lebanase gov't/Israeli strike and elimination of these Hezbollah and not a unilateral destruction of a state attempting to fight some phoney war!!!

 checkmark 
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting TNNH (Reply 10):
I think survival is "sexy" to Israeli voters, at least thats how they interpret this current response. It appears you feel differently?

Thanks for a civil response.

Let me give you an analogy. Olmert is like a Democratic President that has just been voted into office and he wants to prove the GOP critics wrong and show that Dems are tough guys too. (Tough as opposed to smart. Smart is a weak trait when fighting terrorist. It's sissy to talk of "diplomacy" and "measured responses")

This is Olmert. He's trying to prove Likudniks wrong. He IS a tough guy! I'll show you! See? I'm a bad ass like George Bush.
 
kanebear
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 5):
Perhaps?........Not

If the truth hurts that's your problem not mine.

Were that the truth, you'd have a point.

@everyone else : Please, don't feed the trolls.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 11):
OK PMMM

Doesn't look like your big into addressing the issues.

You didn't address any issues. You only made an inane ad homnem attact on GWB and Ohlmert.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 11):
You just want me to stop posting ideas you don't agree with.

No, I would rather have you post well thought out ideas instead of political rants.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 11):
So " I clearly have no clue"..... Good one.

You are so blinded by your political anomosities that you clearly do not have a grasp on reality. (and for your information, I have never been a GWB fan).

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 11):
You'll notice, I never said posted one derogatory remark on this thread towards a fellow poster.

No, you merely made the extremely offensive statement:

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 2):
I'd say we all misjudged Olhmert.

Who knew he was at George Bush's level of incompetence when it comes to foreign policy?


Killing and War is so sexy to Israeli voters. He's a tough guy now!

If you really believe that Ohlmert is sacraficing people's lives in this conflict for political gain, then my statement that you have no clue is factual and not an attack on you.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 11):
Again the answer is no. Continue with your ad hominem attacks. I've got a tough skin. And I'm gonna speak my mind.

To paraphrase:

"A mind is such a terrible thing to be wasted out of."

Sonic99:

It might be very difficult to follow your suggestion of a joint IDF/Lebanese Army operation against the Hezbollah terrorists, since Hezbollah holds seats in the Lebanese Government and former Hezbollah fighters comprise a large part of the Lebanese Army.

Care to rethink your solution?
 
Sonic99
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 17):
It might be very difficult to follow your suggestion of a joint IDF/Lebanese Army operation against the Hezbollah terrorists, since Hezbollah holds seats in the Lebanese Government and former Hezbollah fighters comprise a large part of the Lebanese Army

Care to rethink your solution?

No I do not.

The current members of the Lebanese army are mostly composed of Christians and Muslims not affiliated with the Hezbollah. True there are some former Hezbollah fighters in the ranks yet they joined only on condition of abrogating their alliegiance to the group.

Secondly, you'd be wise to learn the difference between holding seats in government (executive body - power of decision, in this case) and parliament (legislative body). Hezbollah currently holds 30% of the seats in Parliament and has representation in 1 ministry as a consession from other parties as an attempt stabilize the political structure in the country (thus allowing representation of Hezbollah in 1 ministry in government).

This does not mean that Hezbollah's in charge in Lebanon, nor does it imply that Hezbollah has some sort of control over the Lebanese government. True the situation is delicate and precarious in the south of the country where Hezbollah gains its representation.

Israel and its leadership would be best served to root out Hezbollah with the help and approval of the Lebanese Government as opposed to making the situation there more precarious. This unilateral action against the state of Lebanon, my friend, clearly puts Israeli leadership's competency into question!

An informed answer.
 
windshear
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 16):
@everyone else : Please, don't feed the trolls.

 checkmark 

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:13 am

In other words, you've really stated Israel's absurd plan.

A) Israel with the attacks, intends to scare and intimidate the "good" Lebanese into a civil war with the "bad" Lebanese.

B) The "bad" Lebanese will scatter after the "good" Lebanese win.

C) Order restored...LOL

Of course this didn't happen over the course of a 13 year Lebanese occupation before. (IN OTHER WORDS ISRAEL COULDN'T DO IT THEMSELVES) . It didn't work with Iraq.

But the Bush Cult of Personality thinks it will happen now?
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 18):
But the Bush Cult of Personality thinks it will happen now?

This has got to be the stupidest and most telling statement you have made yet. GWB has nothing to do with this. He did not instigate the fighting or the response.

Sonic,

I am aware of the situation in the Lebanese government. I do not think it is politically possible for the government to engage in a joint operation with the IDF against Hezbollah given the level of political support that Hezbollah has at the polls. The UN was supposed to oversee the disarming of Hezbollah under the UN brokered agreement that saw Israel leave southern Lebanon. A fat lot of good the UN did there.

It would be better for Lebanon to ask for assistance from a sector other than Israel to root out these terrorists.

We do agree however that the destruction of Hezbollah as a military force is a necessity.
 
rolfen
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Windshear (Thread starter):
will go on until the infrastructure of both Hamas and Hizbollah is no more...

Didnt know hezbollah and hamas have an infrastructure.
rolf
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:32 am

Read John Pinter in "The Independent" for a good unbiased summary of the situation.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:30 am

I mean Robert Fisk.-----------------------------
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
TNNH
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:01 am

Artie..
I think your analogy is pretty inane. Olmert is acting tough on Hezb because he wishes to destroy it. Naturally the Israeli population supports this action. I don't understand what problem you have with him. You're not being clear at all.

TNNH
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting TNNH (Reply 23):
Olmert is acting tough on Hezb because he wishes to destroy it

As Bush is doing in Iraq. How's that going? Are the insurgents being destroyed?

Olmert is not destroying Hezbollah. He's killed maybe 150 people mostly civilians. These Palestinian militias have thousands of troops. This is a guerrilla war. They have no infrastructure to speak of. He's blockading and bombing the same people he hopes will fight Hezbollah.

But his attack is more strategic than military. He hopes that the majority in Lebanon will reign in Hezbollah. Fat chance. It's a sub State with their own military. Northern Lebanese are not going to march down South and do what the Israelis could not do in 13 years.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
You are a liberal who would would be willing sacrafice the lives and existance of all Israelis to a bunch of terrorists in the name of political correctness, and try to make political points in the process.

Thanks a lot. I'm a Hubert Humphrey liberal and you don't even know how to use the word.

Quoting Sonic99 (Reply 11):
What a bunch of entrenched morons.

Is it sooooooo hard (I mean, really!!!) to admit that this Olmert dropped the ball on this one?

He's got no beef with Lebanon, yet his army is now the process of destroying it. He's got a beef with Damascus, but his planes only buzz the guy's palace there.

For God's sake, put your pride aside guys and look at reality. Condemn bad and reward good!

If Olmert and his policy guys had any brains he'd ask for a joint Lebanase gov't/Israeli strike and elimination of these Hezbollah and not a unilateral destruction of a state attempting to fight some phoney war!!! Can't people see that? Instead these guys go ahead and willy-nilly attempt to fix everything themselves.

For God's sake, people on both sides of the border would be breathing easier right now.

Reality? The reality is that the government of Lebanon is like a bunch of people who had a street gang take over the ground floor in their building and don't know what to do. Now, you're complainning that the cops are kicking the door in.

Because Hezbollah owns 11 per cent of the Lebanese Parliament and two cabinet posts, what makes you think that even if there were some in the government who were willing that there would be a joint lebanese/israeli effort to rid the country of Hezbollah? It's preposterous.

Fact is, everyone except three guys in Greenland up on the polar ice cap know that the Lebanese are not the masters in their own house and haven't been for some time.

It took the Einsteins in Hezbollah one excursion across the border to make sure everyone knew who's wearing the pants in Lebanon.

Interestingly enough, it's now common knowledge what people didn't want to face, and there are a lot of people, mostly not Shia and not Persians, who are starting to get a little worried about having this kind of a loose cannon on deck. What it's going to do ultimately is cut the support out from under Hezbollah, because they're expendable pawns in a game the Iranians are playing.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):
This has got to be the stupidest and most telling statement you have made yet. GWB has nothing to do with this. He did not instigate the fighting or the response.

My statement was in reference to the Bush supporters here, not who caused what in Lebanon. Bush supporters and Israeli apologist are two of a kind.

It's telling DLPMM you cannot stop the ad hominem attacks. I'm sorry that hearing ideas you don't like has set you off. ..you win another round..OK?
 
Sonic99
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):
We do agree however that the destruction of Hezbollah as a military force is a necessity.

Indeed we do.

My point was (and fear is) that Israel's current action will only serve to galvanize opposition and foment greater regional instability and further magnifies the polarization of the various positions on this issue due to US tacit approval of such action. THAT's the problem. It's in this respect that Israel dropped the ball IMO. There was a different way to deal with uprooting Hezbollah that would save face for Israel and the Lebanese government - at the very least show that there is a means of cooperation in the region - and allow for possibility of greater dialogue in the future.

Look, Hezbollah was already being marginalized particularly following the Cedar Revolution.

Unfortunately Israel's decision to unilaterally act out against a provocation by Hezbollah plays into the hands of that group and its sponsors and I find it astounding that Israeli leadership would get suckered into this to begin with. Now they're losing face in the world because of their tactics and rightly so! Unfortunate, but true and this takes some guts to admit this.

Furthermore, at this stage of the game, should an agreement be reached to end hostilities without fully dealing with the problem is akin to brushing this whole episode aside yet leaving Lebanon's infrastructure in tatters. Now that Israel started this action against the Hezbollah they better damn take it to the bitter end and by God finish what they started, otherwise we will see a relapse of this tit-for-tat fighting in the not so distant future and Israel will only have itself to blame for it.

It's an opinion and I believe it's a valid one casting aside pride or preconception.

Thanks for the attention.
 
blrsea
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:43 am

Sonics99, atleast you have valid arguments, but what would have made Lebanon co-operate with Israel? They have not done it so far, and have given Hezbollah a free rein of Southern Lebanon. Why will they do it if Israel asks? It will appear to give in to Isaelis demand. And there was fear that it would trigger a civil war in Lebanon if it tried to assert its authority over Hezbollah areas. Even within the areas it controls, it could have blocked the arms transfer to Hezbollah through the airport and roads it controls. Why didn't it do so?

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 26):
My statement was in reference to the Bush supporters here, not who caused what in Lebanon. Bush supporters and Israeli apologist are two of a kind.



Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 2):

Who knew he was at George Bush's level of incompetence when it comes to foreign policy?



Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 5):
If the truth hurts that's your problem not mine.



Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 10):
You just want me to stop posting ideas you don't agree with.

So " I clearly have no clue"..... Good one.



Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 13):
Let me give you an analogy. Olmert is like a Democratic President that has just been voted into office and he wants to prove the GOP critics wrong and show that Dems are tough guys too. (Tough as opposed to smart. Smart is a weak trait when fighting terrorist. It's sissy to talk of "diplomacy" and "measured responses")



Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 18):
Of course this didn't happen over the course of a 13 year Lebanese occupation before. (IN OTHER WORDS ISRAEL COULDN'T DO IT THEMSELVES) . It didn't work with Iraq.

But the Bush Cult of Personality thinks it will happen now?

Artie, apart from name calling, what has been your contribution to the thread? If you can't bring your solutions to the table and debate on it, just shut up!! Look at your replies. Is there any alternate ideas/suggestions you think Israel could have done better?

Nope, just pure venom spitting!! Sonics99 too doesn't approve of Israel's actions, but he is atleast debating it in a civilized manner, and contributing his thoughts and ideas.

Talk about just ranting on and on about the same stuff!  sarcastic 
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 28):
Artie, apart from name calling

Boy BLRSE

What name calling did I engage in? Let me know. I will apologize.

Then maybe we can discuss why this isn't a "solutions for Israel" thread that you make it out to be?

The title indicates it's about Olmert's Speech to the Knesset. His views. I gave my take on it.

Again though, the name calling? Where?
 
Sonic99
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 28):
but what would have made Lebanon co-operate with Israel? They have not done it so far, and have given Hezbollah a free rein of Southern Lebanon. Why will they do it if Israel asks?

Yeha, that's an interesting twist and definitely good questions. I thought about that before writing my comments above but there was something promulgated by Olmert and other members of the Israeli gov't that got me thinking about this whole affair.

If, as Olmert himself stated, that this is a war to end Hezbollah for good, then the Lebanese government would have less to worry about in dealing with Hezbollah alongside Israeli forces - correct? The reason they (the Lebanese government) has been unable to deal with Hezbollah (militarily) is because of the constant worry of the possibility of a renewed civil war within the country and the attempt to integrate Hezbollah to the political fold (hence an attempt at enticing it to relinquish its militaristic methods - obviously this was for naught). So now that they've decided to go it alone Israel damn well better deal with this or face the music in the future and will only have itself to blame.

Thing is the Israeli leadership could have gained much more by an inclusive rather than exclusive policy. The METHOD by which Israel is conducting its actions is the REAL PROBLEM most people have - not the right of protecting its existance as it's made out to be (by members of this forum and otherwise). It's the way they keep going after infrastructure and destroying the viability and stability of Lebanon as a response for the capture (not kidnapping) of two of its members of armed forces.

(BTW - a quick explanation of words here: soldiers are captured, civilians are kidnapped).
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 2):
He's a tough guy now!

Perhaps we need more leaders like him who don't stand or sit safely in their well secured residences and let the world spin out of control unchecked.

I can think of a huge list of names of world leaders who do just that but the list would take up too much of my prescious time.

Bravo Olmert for being fed up with terror and with people who do nothing but hate Israel and want to start something. Bra - vo.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 31):
Perhaps we need more leaders like him who don't stand or sit safely in their well secured residences and let the world spin out of control unchecked.

How's Iraq going? Here you had a Bush who took exactly that track and look what it got him? We have lost Iraq. You just don't know it yet. When we leave there will be plenty of insurgents remaining responsible for the deaths of thousands of US soldiers. By your vote for Bush and support of this latest Israel fiasco you will have created 10 fold the number of battle hardened terrorists. Not to mention you squandered 400+ Billion dollars..Jesus Christ.

The wise thing to do would start using your head and address fundamental issues that cause this....and that would be the US's support of Israel's persecution of Arabs..and direct support of Arab dictatorships.

I know it doesn't sound as fun as F-16s screaming in the air dropping bombs but it is the only way out of this.
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
We have lost Iraq.

Oh really? That's news to me and the over 150,000 U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
you will have created 10 fold the number of battle hardened terrorists.

So be it. We will kill them too.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
address fundamental issues



Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
and that would be the US's support of Israel's persecution of Arabs

So you want the U.S. to throw Israel to the Arab wolves huh? That's rather big of you. But not surprising from you considering your "Israel's persecution" comment.

In fact, that sounds just like some of those idle world leaders who don't have the guts to make the tough decisions.

Sorry but your answer is not the answer. It has never worked in the history of the world nor the Middle East.

Next idea anyone?
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
User avatar
casinterest
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
The wise thing to do would start using your head and address fundamental issues that cause this....

Yes, let's do that.
The fundamantal issue that started this fiasco is that a bunch of blowhard pigs from Hezbollah decided to perform an act of war believing they could get away with it.
When they got called down by the big boys, they went scurrying into villiages and started popping off inaccurate missles like immature teenage boys.

The big boys are gonna come in and take care of business, and all they can do is whine and piss about how unfair it, while not accepting the reality that they brought it down on themselves.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:00 pm

Cas it's goes completely over your head.

Killing terrorists has a place in policy but should not be the strategic military objective. Killing insurgents is a tactical objective and may serve a political goal, but does little against a guerrilla insurgency. We are not safer for being in Iraq, Israel is not safer for bombing Lebanon and killing 30 children.

As I mentioned the Iraq fiasco is a prime example of where your short sighted tough guy thinking has got us.

[Edited 2006-07-19 07:06:41]
 
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:23 pm

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 35):
As I mentioned the Iraq fiasco is a prime example of where your short sighted tough guy thinking has got us.

And where is Iraq my short sighted friend?

They are going through Civil Unrest. Look at the attacks. they aren't going after the Soldiers. They are going after each other.
There are terrorists among them that are going after the Soldiers, but for the most part they are on their way to being free and independent.

Perhaps in your over excuberance of looking no further than your nose, you may have missed the fact that the Iraqi police are now in control of a whole territory within Iraq, and slowly the rest of the nation is starting to come around. the sunni's and shiites are warring over issues that are hundreds of years old, and hopefully they will tire of it soon. The US will leave Iraq when it is stable, and hopefully in good shape to move forward into the future. However, Iraq is steadily moving towards peace.

As for Lebanon, everyone is so quick to denounce Israel, but where the hell was everyone when Hezzbollah and Hamas were launching rockets and suicide bombers?
Israel has every right to go bombarding into Lebanon. Especially when No one in Lebanon gave a damn about Hezzbollah's actions prior to last week.

Israel should wage war with all the power it can. War is Hell, and the Lebonese seem to have forgotten it, otherwise they would not have invited a terrorist organization to live so comfortably within.
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mrocktor
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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:10 am

If terrorists hide out among children and the children get killed when they are attacked, it's the terrorist's fault - not their victim's.

The issue is moral authority. Hizbollah initiated aggression against Israel, the country of Lebannon gives the terrorist organization sanction (they are a significant part of the elected representatives) and freedom to operate (the terrorist organization operates freely in the south of the country).

Thus Hizbollah is the aggressor, Lebannon the accomplice and Israel the victim. A victim can bow down to aggression or it can fight back, Israel chose to fight back and this is their moral right. It is their right to use as much violence as is necessary to completely destroy Hizbollah as a threat.

Sure, a large portion of the lebanese population does not support Hizbollah. In not doing something about it they are responsible though. They have had plenty of time to remove the terrorist organization themselves or to obtain international aid to do so. They have not succeeded and have allowed the terrorists to stage extensive attacks from their country. Now they pay the price as collateral damage.

What Israel is doing is exactly what needs to be done, what should be done and what is right to do. Hopefully when they finally are done and pull out (because we all know that conquest is not their purpose - defense is) the lebanese will have learned the cost of not taking action against terrorists in their midst.

Iraq was a disastrous campaign because the USA didn't unleash total destruction uppon the Saddam regime, because they refuse to use overwhelming force against the terrorists there today, and because they confuse democracy with freedom. They have managed to set up a democracy: surprise, surprise - they elected the tyrants.

Proper action in Iraq, if WMD were truly suspected, would be to go in destroy the military, destroy the WMD, destroy the labs and infrastructure needed for WMD development and get the hell out. Much like what needs to be done with Iran and North Korea today.

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RE: Olmert To Knesset: Our Enemies Misjudged Us

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 37):
If terrorists hide out among children and the children get killed when they are attacked, it's the terrorist's fault - not their victim's.

The issue is moral authority. Hizbollah initiated aggression against Israel, the country of Lebannon gives the terrorist organization sanction (they are a significant part of the elected representatives) and freedom to operate (the terrorist organization operates freely in the south of the country).

Thus Hizbollah is the aggressor, Lebannon the accomplice and Israel the victim. A victim can bow down to aggression or it can fight back, Israel chose to fight back and this is their moral right. It is their right to use as much violence as is necessary to completely destroy Hizbollah as a threat.

Sure, a large portion of the lebanese population does not support Hizbollah. In not doing something about it they are responsible though. They have had plenty of time to remove the terrorist organization themselves or to obtain international aid to do so. They have not succeeded and have allowed the terrorists to stage extensive attacks from their country. Now they pay the price as collateral damage.

You understand international law and the law of war pretty well.

I'm quite convinced that a number of our Lebanese colleagues, although they did not think the influence of Hezb in the country was such a great thing, nonetheless let their sympathies for their fellow coreligionists sway them from the course of clear and logical thinking.

They maybe sat on the sidelines and cheered on the thug gang as long as they were slinging rockets and sending suicide bombers south of the line. You know, it's really not any different than we see in our cities, when street gangs take control of a neighborhood from the residents. Maybe the residents sort of sympathise because they're out there pissing off the common enemy, the cops.

The sympathisers clearly underestimated the level of response that would be generated, maybe underestimated Olmert a little, because if they did comprehend what they were about they never would have chosen such a foolhardy and self destructive course of action. The militants of the middle east are famous for underestimating what's likely to happen when the Israelis are sufficiently provoked. This time's no different.

Well. What's the takehome?

The militants have succeeded in undoing progress toward a two state solution in Gaza and the west Bank, as modest as that was. They've succeeded in bringing down a hell on Lebanon that's destroying the work of a generation. They've made the government of Lebanon a nullity. They've started yet another war they cannot win, and expected to play the international media for all it was worth because they're getting their asses kicked along with a lot of bystanders.

Great fucking job, everyone.
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