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Braybuddy
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Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:29 pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2271755,00.html

Very interesting article from a former US Ambassador to Croatia, which seems to make a lot of sense. The only real problem is Baghdad.

[Edited 2006-07-18 05:37:48]
 
AirCop
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:34 pm

No problem it will happen once the United States leave. I expect three countries to be formed out of what is now Iraq, sort of a repeat of Yugoslavia.
 
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STT757
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
The only real problem is Baghdad.

Actually I think the biggest problem would be dividing up the Oil Revenue.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
baroque
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:10 pm

No, no no - no need for partition, "democracy was always going to be a bit messy". "We are so much better off without Saddam"! And other similar remarks.

How does the US administration, not to mention Blair and our own nice Mr Howard have the nerve to maintain that this catastrophe in Iraq was good policy? Just about anything else must have been better.

The creation of Gertrude Bell might have looked a bit like a camel, but you could argue that her effort was far more successful than all the Presidents men (and women) have managed.

And partition? Super idea, pity that Saddam sort of anticipated that and mixed the populations up much more than they were in Bell's days. We dont hear much about the ancient Christian community in Iraq these days, I wonder why that is!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:14 pm

A lot of people have suggested this before...I personally think it's the only viable option but I don't think US policymakers have ever seriously considered it.

I think the US should move all of our troops to the Kurdish areas, help them build a functioning state that is a democracy, and then incorporate the other areas of Iraq as is desired/feasable.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:33 pm

Division would cause greater Unrest not only in Iraq but also Protests Around the World.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
oly720man
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:46 pm

Isn't it in enough pieces already?



Ah the colonial legacy. How many artificially created countries around the world could do with a redraw on more representative ethnic/tribal grounds....


and what happens. Nationalism and removal of the others who are different and the "cause of all our problems." Then you have, instead of different people living in the same country with tension, people who are more polarised living next door to each other and still fighting. If Iraq ever does get partitioned on ethnic grounds you'll probably end up with power conflicts as different external groups side with the different ethnicities.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
problem is Baghdad.

Baghdad simply is the Capital of the Sunni part of Iraq, while Basra is the Capital of the Shi'ite part. You may separate Baghdad, so that Sunni Iraq can unite with Syria, which might also be an interesting project.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:38 pm

A very good solution.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:52 pm

When you look at the state of the country with an average of 60 murders daily in Baghdad alone, plus most of the country simply ungovernable, splitting it into three would, dare I say it, almost seem like an obvious solution.

Having your life in constant danger by living with hostile neighbours would no doubt be a strong incentive for people to move if they found themselves in the "wrong" country, but if that failed they could be paid to relocate. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper in the long run than fighting an endless war.

The country is already in civil war. Look what happened with Yugolsavia: there were arguments against splitting the country at the time and the break-up of the country proved the salvation of its constituent parts.

If there were odds on the future of Iraq, I'd be betting heavily on this option.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:05 pm

It sounds like the only viable solution for the tortured population of Iraq.
Even under the worse days of Saddam ,the death toll did not reach those staggering figures currently experienced.
You can't really expect Sunni and Shi'iah populations to merge easily.The fate of the civil population should be the furthermost concern to all political considerations-far beyond petrol or geo-political chess-games.
Bush is not only dis-respectful towards the Iraqi people,but most importantly non-compliant with his christian religion ,that seems to be a major motivator in his political decisions.
The idea to merge sunni-oriented Syria with parts of Iraq sounds interesting but would never get the green-flag from the Colonial powers.
Immagine a oil-rich greater Iraq-Syria entity ,next to an Iranian-controlled Shi'iah part of Iraq...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Marco
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:17 pm

And partition? Super idea, pity that Saddam sort of anticipated that and mixed the populations up much more than they were in Bell's days. We dont hear much about the ancient Christian community in Iraq these days, I wonder why that is!

I wonder why too. I happen to be an Assyrian Christian from Iraq and have posted numerous threads regarding this topic and the "kurdization" of northern Iraq. It's sad that about one million people in Iraq present till this day are hardly ever mentioned.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
so that Sunni Iraq can unite with Syria, which might also be an interesting project.

And Shia Iraq can unite with Iran. Brilliant, White House dudes! Hand half of Iraq to your second biggest enemy in the region, and the other half to your first biggest enemy! (Actually I think Saudi Arabia is the US' biggest enemy in the region, I mean, they actually attacked the mainland and killed 3,000 Americans! But the Saudi royal family are friends with the Bush royal family, so we can't talk about it!)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 11):
I wonder why too. I happen to be an Assyrian Christian from Iraq and have posted numerous threads regarding this topic and the "kurdization" of northern Iraq. It's sad that about one million people in Iraq present till this day are hardly ever mentioned.

You are right -so called "minorities" -like Coptes in Egypt -are commonly forgotten or smashed between the wheels of super-powers or mainstream religious interests.
Turkey announced yesterday to considers actions to move into Kurdish-Iraq to control Kurdish sponsored movements into Turkey.Things in Iraq will not become easier....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 12):
so that Sunni Iraq can unite with Syria, which might also be an interesting project.

And Shia Iraq can unite with Iran. Brilliant, White House dudes! Hand half of Iraq to your second biggest enemy in the region, and the other half to your first biggest enemy! (Actually I think Saudi Arabia is the US' biggest enemy in the region, I mean, they actually attacked the mainland and killed 3,000 Americans! But the Saudi royal family are friends with the Bush royal family, so we can't talk about it!)

-
But Syria is NOT an enemy of the USA. It already in 1991 was participating in the liberation of Kuwait, and for years has been a partner of the USA in their "war on terror". As President Bashar al-Assad has repeatedly stated, Syria is a friend of the USA. And imagine, the USA hands Baghdad over to Syria !  yes   optimist   praise 
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
But Syria is NOT an enemy of the USA.

May one assume you are being sarcastic ? I hope so !!!
gene
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 15):
But Syria is NOT an enemy of the USA.

May one assume you are being sarcastic ? I hope so !!!

50/50 ! BUT Syria indeed is NOT any enemy of the USA and has never been. Just look back to 1991 and the liberation in Kuwait where Syrian troops were part of the alliance there. There have been aspects of adversity, but ask some "services-people" of your country about the close co-operation in regard to "interviewing" elQaeda people ! CIA(etc) members doing "interviews" in Damascus with the support of Dr Assad. Alltogether, possibly a "difficult partner" but NOT an enemy.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 15):
May one assume you are being sarcastic ? I hope so !!!

Oh lord he's at it again. A few weeks ago he claimed that Syria fights terrorism or something like that....Of course he was greatly flamed for that.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 17):
Syria fights terrorism

to repeat it :
-
50/50 ! BUT Syria indeed is NOT any enemy of the USA and has never been. Just look back to 1991 and the liberation in Kuwait where Syrian troops were part of the alliance there. There have been aspects of adversity, but ask some "services-people" of your country about the close co-operation in regard to "interviewing" elQaeda people ! CIA(etc) members doing "interviews" in Damascus with the support of Dr Assad. Alltogether, possibly a "difficult partner" but NOT an enemy.
*************************************  wave 
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
I personally think it's the only viable option but I don't think US policymakers have ever seriously considered it.

It should never have been a country as it is today in the first place. The British cut it out of the Ottoman Empire with no regard to the past relations (or lack thereof) of the various ethnic and tribal factions in the area. The only thing that's prevented the civil unrest we're seeing now from happening in the past has been oppressive dictatorships.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
Division would cause greater Unrest not only in Iraq but also Protests Around the World.

Why? Because it makes too much sense? Anyone who looks at the history of Iraq can understand why its prospects for a stable democracy are bleak. Division would be in the best interests of peace, but it will never happen. For the Bush Administration, dividing Iraq would acknowledge their failure to establish a democratic government there, and it's a sure bet that isn't going to happen.
 
Marco
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:16 am

Actually ME AVN FAN is very right. Syria is leaded by a secular party whose interests are probably more closely aligned with the USA. The same goes for the Baath party in Iraq. It's the new "democratically" elected thieves with militias in Baghdad you have to worry about. They hate you more than anyone in the Baath party ever did...
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 19):
Why? Because it makes too much sense? Anyone who looks at the history of Iraq can understand why its prospects for a stable democracy are bleak. Division would be in the best interests of peace, but it will never happen. For the Bush Administration, dividing Iraq would acknowledge their failure to establish a democratic government there, and it's a sure bet that isn't going to happen.

You quoted the wrong post, but I agree with you.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
baroque
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:01 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
Actually ME AVN FAN is very right. Syria is leaded by a secular party whose interests are probably more closely aligned with the USA. The same goes for the Baath party in Iraq. It's the new "democratically" elected thieves with militias in Baghdad you have to worry about. They hate you more than anyone in the Baath party ever did...

Thanks Marco and ME AVN FAN for saving my blood pressure. The great thing with dealing with the Syrian President is that he will check your eyesight just before his assistants deal with your root canals.

It is a bit rich for the US to complain about the way that Syria is run and the to use its special facilities. As for the border with Iraq, it was the US and the coalition of the (partly) willing that invaded, so border security was up to them not the Syrians. As Colin Powell told him, if you break it, it is yours. And that includes the borders.

Has anyone played Gulf War2 recently

http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml

It is not entirely that plan, but there are awful similarities in places.
Be afraid!
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):

You quoted the wrong post, but I agree with you.

I wish I could figure out how that happens...my apologies!
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:23 pm

Execellent posts, Gunsontheroof, and welcome to my RU list
 
csavel
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
Actually ME AVN FAN is very right. Syria is leaded by a secular party whose interests are probably more closely aligned with the USA.

Not to mention that for all the rhetoric from the US, Syria did sort of keep Hezbollah on a leash, I'm not saying Syria should stay in Lebanon, it is a good thing that Lebanon kicked them out, I am merely pointing out unintended effects.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
baroque
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:23 pm

Quoting Csavel (Reply 25):
Not to mention that for all the rhetoric from the US, Syria did sort of keep Hezbollah on a leash, I'm not saying Syria should stay in Lebanon, it is a good thing that Lebanon kicked them out, I am merely pointing out unintended effects.

And is that not going to be the sad sorry sequel to all this - the list of unintended effects will just go on and on.

Where did OBL come from? Blow back that is where he came from. As the Germans say usw, or alternatively it will be deja vu all over again.
 
Marco
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:05 pm

Iraq was led by a secular party until this pathetic war. My intention is not to condone or condemn Saddam but the fact of the matter is that these shia militias that have been "elected" into power pose a bigger risk to the region and the world.

Well done USA!  Yeah sure
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par13del
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:15 pm

Question often overlooked is how did societies get where they are today, especially by those of us in the "West" we did not just overnight mix Catholics, Protestants, Black, White etc, there was a lot of pain and blood shed here too, sometimes you get the feeling that either we forget that or that we are not students of history, our societies did not just "happen"

The "separation" of Iraq into 3 states is a good idea, but in the current policital climate, impractical. What is practical, is to allow Kurdistan, right now.
They have been a defacto state since the first Gulf War, they are peaceful, maintain their infrastructure and basically look after themselves.

Allow the creation of the new state, get them recognized in the UN and let the rest of Iraq look at them, face themselves in the mirror and start addressing their situation. Funny thing is, it would not surprize me if a military force is required to protect the new Kurdish state, not from Turkey but from the rest of Iraq, it may just have the effect of bring them together to fight what they may regard as a "common foe"
 
Marco
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:43 pm

Besides having a slight population majority there is no legitmacy for a Kurdistan in Northern Iraq.
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par13del
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:46 pm

Marco that's the same for all of Iraq, the middle and the south.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 27):
these shia militias that have been "elected" into power pose a bigger risk to the region and the world.

and are clearly anti-Western, and in fact even anti-US-American

Quoting Marco (Reply 29):
having a slight population majority there is no legitmacy for a Kurdistan in Northern Iraq.

"slight population majorities" have been at the origin of many countries of this world. And Kurdistan gets its "legitimacy" basically from being practically already in existence.
 
baroque
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 27):
Iraq was led by a secular party until this pathetic war. My intention is not to condone or condemn Saddam but the fact of the matter is that these shia militias that have been "elected" into power pose a bigger risk to the region and the world.

The trouble is it is not the Assyrians that are coming down like a wolf on the fold.

For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!
 
slider
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:28 pm

I've been saying this for THREE FREAKING YEARS!!!!
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:07 am

I have a newsflash for Mr. Galbraith,US Senator Joseph Biden,and those nice folks at the Council for Foreign Relations who are seeking to balkanize Iraq (and Kashmir as well) : The days of the Raj are over.

If one must balkanize,perhaps one should start with Galbraith or Biden's home states, and divide them on racial or religious grounds: a White enclave, a section for Blacks,another for Latinos;maybe one for Muslims....you get the idea.

How many microseconds would it take before someone screamed: " But that's DIFFERENT !!!"
gene
 
slider
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 34):
I have a newsflash for Mr. Galbraith,US Senator Joseph Biden,and those nice folks at the Council for Foreign Relations who are seeking to balkanize Iraq (and Kashmir as well) : The days of the Raj are over.

If one must balkanize,perhaps one should start with Galbraith or Biden's home states, and divide them on racial or religious grounds: a White enclave, a section for Blacks,another for Latinos;maybe one for Muslims....you get the idea.

How many microseconds would it take before someone screamed: " But that's DIFFERENT !!!"

Yes, people have no interest in returning to their roots.

Signed,
Montenegro

****************

Actually, a very good column by Pat Buchanan that fits in nicely to this Iraq discussion.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50338
 
Marco
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:09 am

Marco that's the same for all of Iraq, the middle and the south.

I particularly don't think so.

"slight population majorities" have been at the origin of many countries of this world.

Many of those countries are troubled and we can list them...

And Kurdistan gets its "legitimacy" basically from being practically already in existence.

Thanks to the USA. They found a group of people willing to sell themselves and their oil in exhange for a country (even though its based on nothing). Look at the Kurds now trying to change the city of Arbil to another name because Arbil is an Assyrian word. That's how Northern Iraq has been and is currently being "kurdified"! It should remain part of a greater Iraq as the northern Iraqi province of Nineveh!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
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par13del
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:19 am

Marco are you then saying that the Sunni's, Kurds and Shities want to live together? If that were the case, how is it possible for "outsiders" to turn them against each other so easily?

Unless all the bombings are being done by non Iraqi's, we have Iraqi's killing each other, on a daily basis.
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:04 am

The people who are pushing this idea are called the Goals for Americans Foundation:

http://www.goalsforamericans.org/

If you take a look at their website, you'll see they're "window dressing" for Wesley Clarke - a retired US general who came within a gnat's whisker of triggering WWIII in Kosovo; and, if you read between the lines,you may well conclude this whole idea is a trial balloon,designed to make Joe Biden and Wesley Clarke look and sound "presidential".

Let's state one basic fact: If the Iraqi people find it is in THEIR best interest to form " 3 republics with one capitol-modeled on the EU" , than I'm sure THEY will make that CHOICE.
gene
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:07 am

Some articles in UK and German media talk about a consent by Washington prior to the attacks of Lebanon and an explicit endorsment by Bush and Condoleza.
This might give ideas to Erdogan in Ankara,to go after Kurs in Iraq,considering the lame-duck reaction of the rest of the world to the current desater in Lebanon.He could use the justification ,that "if Israel goes after Hezbollah,I can go after the Kurds.."
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
slider
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 38):
Let's state one basic fact: If the Iraqi people find it is in THEIR best interest to form " 3 republics with one capitol-modeled on the EU" , than I'm sure THEY will make that CHOICE.

Not if they're already being forced to coalesce....which has been the thrust thus far.
 
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yowza
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:13 am

I was under the impression that there had always been an intention to split Iraqi Kurdistan into its own entity whether it was independent or semi-autonomous. The only reservation the American had was keeping the Turks happy. But Since they now have major ops in Qatar they are no longer too concerned about the Turks pulling Incirlik away from under them.

YOWza
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:38 am

I think the intention was and is to let the Iraqi people sort that out for themselves,once we are gone.
gene
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:09 am

Incidentally, I ran across this parody today-written by someone after Sen. Biden's May "Op ed":

National Democratic leaders yesterday shied away from Sen. Joseph Biden's (D-De.) call to divide the United States into three regions by 2008.

"You can't just do it; you have to arrive at agreements to do it," said Vietnam War Veteran and Senator John Kerry (D-Ma.). "I'm a man of action who understands that we don't need concrete plans to solve our problems, we need to talk about having concrete plans to do so."

Biden has called for dividing the United States into regions of Left Coast elitists, Middle Americans, and East Coast Elitists, with a loose central government run out of Washington for the purpose of providing for such vital services as paying congressional salaries and naming new Highways after the chairmen of the House and Senate Appropriations Committees.

The senator has said he is interested in running for president in 2008.

The Democrats are being cautious about attacking Senator Biden, but national Republicans have named him "The Pinata of the Month."

"It's disappointing that less two years after the successful formation of a government, Joe Biden would propose short-circuitng the democratic process," said Tracey Schmitt of the RNC.

Democratic House Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Ca.), called Mr. Biden "very wise-kinda like Yoda, only taller." but said his idea "sounds like a challenge that could lead to other challenges." When asked to explain what that meant in plain English, Ms. Pelosi confessed ignorance.

"We should never have started this country in the first place. If that was a good suggestion, maybe somebody could have made it early on," she said.
gene
 
pbottenb
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:34 am

Who gives a rats ass. As long as we get our friggen oil...I got a truck to feed.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 42):
I think the intention was and is to let the Iraqi people sort that out for themselves,once we are gone.

Ummm...if you haven't noticed, they've already started "sorting".
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:17 am

Yeah, I've noticed. I notice the Sunnis,who took part in a massive pogrom against the Shi'ites,are now getting worried. The ties between Iranian Shi'ites and Iraqi Shi'ites go back for many years,and are -as one scholar put it -"multi-layered" : religious,commercial,familial,etc.

The tentative view is that Iran would prefer to have an independent Iraq,because it would not have to administer it,spend money on it,etc.-(although it already has done all of these things).

The Kurds are by no means "homogenous" : some Sunni,some Shi'ite;some not even Kurds,but Arabs.There is even a homegrown Communist party,which is at the root of much of the Turkish/Kurdish friction. (Nothing new there !)

The way to persuade them to get along is to leave them no alternative (other than civil war).
gene
 
baroque
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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 38):
The people who are pushing this idea are called the Goals for Americans Foundation:

http://www.goalsforamericans.org/

Thank you for the link, it gave me Mearsheimer and Walt's response, very useful, I knew it existed but had not found it.

As for the map, it is really, really clever, pretty much no oil in Sunniland assuming I can figure out where Kirkuk is. Mind you the Kurds will not be thrilled if they ever figure out how near to depletion Kirkuk is.
 
baroque
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 44):
Who gives a rats ass. As long as we get our friggen oil...I got a truck to feed.

Your rat's ass just made feeding your truck more expensive in the short run, and in the longer run ensured it will be on a starvation diet. See how the rats are then.

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RE: Break-up Iraq, Says Former US Ambassador

Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 46):
some Sunni,some Shi'ite

you have to make a difference between Kurds and Kurdistan. As Marco emphasizes, Kurdistan includes a variety of NON-Kurdish minorities. Kurds are (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue4/jv6n4a5.htm) an "Iranian ethno-linguistic" people, but by majority Sunnis. But indeed also Shi'ites and Yezidi, as well as Christians. Among the NON-Kurdish minorities you have Assyrian-Chaldeans (Christians), Turkomans, Arabs and Armenians.

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