Birdwatching
Topic Author
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Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:48 am

Brrrrrrrrrrrrr I hate them so much. I hate Adobe Acrobat in general. Takes ages to load, and then crashes the browser 90% of the time (yes I'm on a brand spanking new computer here)

In addition to that, I'm scared of the monopoly Adobe has with pdf files. They could start charging money overnight, and the web would be screwed.

I understand that there are alternatives to Reader, but AFAIK they're only half legal because the whole pdf thing is patented.

Here's a great link:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html

"PDF is great for one thing and one thing only: printing documents. Paper is superior to computer screens in many ways, and users often prefer to print documents that are too long to easily read online.
For online reading, however, PDF is the monster from the Black Lagoon. It puts its clammy hands all over people with a cruel grip that doesn't let go."

Anyway.

Whining time is over.

Soren

[Edited 2006-07-18 19:01:19]
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
NoUFO
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:58 am

Firefox uses to ask me if I want to see the PDF in a new window, download it or to forget it and cancel the download which hardly causes Firefox to crash.

PDFs can be great if used properly, and it's an open format, hence there's no reason to be afraid of a monopoly. The fact Adobe swallowed Macromedia is much more scarier.
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mbmbos
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:02 am

You can count me in. File size is humongous and you have to purchase ther very expensive full version of Adobe to manipulate them at all.

Local and federal government has embraced .pdf as a standard. Therefore, if you wish to fill out an online government form and be able to save it, you have to purchase a full Adobe license. What a sweet deal that must be for Adobe.

All I can say is look out for future implementations of XML. I believe it will overtake Adobe for a whole lot of online forms.
 
Sabena332
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
Takes ages to load, and then crashes the browser 90% of the time

Exactly the reasons why I hate this crap as well!

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 3):

Exactly the reasons why I hate this crap as well!

Count me in!
 
searpqx
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:09 am

I love the "PDF" concept, but I do have two problems with it.

The first is Adobe itself. Full fledged Acrobat is required to create PDFs, and up until version 5 it had everything you needed to make, modify and manipulate both documents and forms. Then in version 6 it must have caught "MSOfficeitis", because it suddenly blew up in size, doubled the system resource needed to run and, most irritatingly, you were required to purchase the "Pro" version to make/manipulate forms, along with some other fairly common functions that were bundled in version 5. Version 7 only made it worse. As a committed capitalist, I fully understand the rationale behind this move, but as a long time user, it burns my butt big time.

The second, and bigger problem, are the users who create multi MB sized PDFs because they don't understand how to do it correctly. Nothing is worse than receiving a 10MB document, only to discover its only two pages that were created as images vs. documents. These are the ones that will crash your browser and slow your computer to a crawl.

Gee, that felt good, I guess I needed a good harmless rant this morning! Big grin
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:15 am

I love PDFs. When I want to save website pages, I print them to PDF. On the Mac it's as easy as pie, just choose "Save as PDF..." from the Print menu. I can view them in the Mac app Preview without any difficulty.

When I use the Dell with WinXP, I use Ghostscript and GSView to create PDFs. It's a bit more complicated, but it works fine, and creates a simple PDF of minimal size.

Anything I fax, I generally make a PDF out of it first. Everything is there, including the cover page, and I can file it all away with ease. PDFs seem to fax extremely well from computers vs. Word or other documents.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Kay
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:22 am

1- Version 6 is the slowest piece of software to load I have ever experienced in 14 years of computing.

2- You can't scroll easily in PDF files which makes it the most annoying format to read on PC, they just didn't get it right and still can't.

3- If you want to search for a string, you get a side-column that will display all the results, different from most everything else in the computer industry, and incredibly unusable.

4- Last but not least: the beauty of PDF files? you can't change the content. Oh wait! They just changed that. You can change the content, but the files will only be uglier. You can delete whole pages and even add boxes and overwirte everything. The moment this happened, I stopped seeing any advantage to this format as opposed to MsWord. I am waiting for it to die.


That being said, I love Adobe for their graphic products, name Photoshop and Premiere, which may be the two products that have impressed me the most ever.


Kay
 
NoUFO
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 2):
Local and federal government has embraced .pdf as a standard. Therefore, if you wish to fill out an online government form and be able to save it, you have to purchase a full Adobe license.

No, there are plenty of solutions, I believe even freeware, but even if you were right, you could still print out the form.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 2):
All I can say is look out for future implementations of XML. I believe it will overtake Adobe for a whole lot of online forms.

Try to save a filled out online form written in XML. Good luck.
I support the right to arm bears
 
AC773
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:24 am

I see that many of you don't agree, but I love PDFs. A couple of years ago, I designed a website for a university's conflict resolution center. We had a ton of documents that had to be made accessible online. The whole process of scanning, importing, and attaching that stuff was made so much easier by the PDF format.

My boss liked it as well, because as the copyright holder he didn't want people copy-and-pasteing or otherwise messing with his documents.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
Queso
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:27 am

Add another on to the "hates" column.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I love PDFs.

I always knew there was something strange about you but never quite knew what it was until now.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
I always knew there was something strange about you but never quite knew what it was until now

I do believe I've just been pwn3d!
International Homo of Mystery
 
StarAC17
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:33 am

Get a Mac

Signed,
Klaus
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:34 am

I recently discovered that the computer labs in my college allow you to convert word files to PDF so I've been doing that a lot lately with long papers and such.

PDF files can be a pain to open but if you are preparing a special project they look so much fancier!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Queso
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
I do believe I've just been pwn3d!

Yeah.....but only a little bit.  Wink
 
FlyKev
Crew
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:37 am

With 512MB ram - Evil. Would crash and take up ram.

With 1280Mb ram - I love them! They are useful to print onlienr reciepts into.



Kev.
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
 
searpqx
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
4- Last but not least: the beauty of PDF files? you can't change the content. Oh wait! They just changed that. You can change the content, but the files will only be uglier. You can delete whole pages and even add boxes and overwirte everything. The moment this happened, I stopped seeing any advantage to this format as opposed to MsWord. I am waiting for it to die.

This is one area I still very much like Acrobat - you can lock the document down so tight the only thing they can do is read it. We used PDF to send out marketing documents in my last job. I had security set so that they were printable and readable, period. Got a call from a competitor one day wanting to copy some of our text, and they couldn't, wanted to know what I'd done!
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
solarix
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:38 am

Use Foxit Reader to view PDF files.


Problem solved.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
NoUFO
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
If you want to search for a string, you get a side-column that will display all the results, different from most everything else in the computer industry, and incredibly unusable.

Are you crazy? What's wrong with seeing your search results together with the context? And MS Word comes with the same feature depending on your preferences, only that Microsoft's version is less reliable.


I believe the difference between those who hate or like the format is that the latter group actually works with online applications or electronic documents.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Cory6188
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

As a person who recently got a MacBook Pro, I think that PDF files are super useful. They are totally integrated into Safari, and the Mac lets you save nearly anything as a PDF file and manipulate them as you wish. It's fantastic!
 
Kay
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
Are you crazy?

No, I just happen to prefer seeing my results in the context, by being able to jump to the next result with a keystroke, like in unix.

Kay
 
NoUFO
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:59 am

Kay, you don't need Unix for that, and when displaying a PDF, you can quickly jump to the second last result.
I support the right to arm bears
 
andz
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:24 am

I guess I am a very simple pdf user. I have never had a browser crash and never had the need to manipulate one. I use WIN2PDF to create pdfs from any Windows program and that works perfectly too.

So put me in the pro-pdf column.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:40 am

I don't mind PDF files at all.

Widely used in the company I work for anyway  Smile



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
mbmbos
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 8):
Try to save a filled out online form written in XML. Good luck.

Presently, yes. But a lot of forms-centric sites are going XML for their electronic filings, including the U.S. Patent Office.
 
soyuzavia
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Solarix (Reply 17):
Use Foxit Reader to view PDF files.

Not bad, but some PDF can lose formatting.

The easiest thing to do is install this Firefox extension

https://addons.mozilla.org/addon.php?id=636
http://www.pdfdownload.org/
 
Kay
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
Kay, you don't need Unix for that, and when displaying a PDF, you can quickly jump to the second last result.

Which keystroke? What I'd like to do is jump from one to the next without using the mouse, but rather a keystroke.

I am too lazy (and tired) to research this now  Smile


Kay
 
vaporlock
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
"PDF is great for one thing and one thing only: printing documents.

Ah...LOL, honestly pdf files are no different than any others...if you have Illustrator just open them there and you should never crash your computer again!!! As a graphic designer I work will lots of different types of files so I've learned how to open them many different ways.

Phyllis  bouncy 
 
Klaus
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 12):
Get a Mac
Signed, Klaus

It's simply the truth, so thank you!

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 19):
As a person who recently got a MacBook Pro, I think that PDF files are super useful. They are totally integrated into Safari, and the Mac lets you save nearly anything as a PDF file and manipulate them as you wish.

I'm not aware of any exceptions so far - PDF printing is simply one of the output options in the system-wide print dialog used by all applications.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 19):
It's fantastic!

It's actually just the way it should be - sad that we're ready to get ecstatic about something just being the way it's supposed to be...!


For me, PDFs are simply a daily fact of life and I wouldn't want to live without them again. I share the misgivings about Adobe's position, but the PDF format has helped me getting rid of tons of component manuals and reference documents that would have cluttered my shelves in the past;

It also has made the acquisition of postage stamps a rare and exotic activity - I usually send all my documents via e-mail nowadays, which means PDF in many cases.

With the Preview application under MacOS, I was happy to kick out the atrocious Adobe Reader; Preview works easier, faster and with much less fuss. And creating (printing to) PDFs couldn't be any easier either. I don't have a need to edit finished PDFs, so there's no need to get any additional software.

It just works.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Thread starter):
I understand that there are alternatives to Reader, but AFAIK they're only half legal because the whole pdf thing is patented.

Wrong, PDF is an open format and implementations are completely legal. Hell I have implemented a subset of it myself.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 2):
Local and federal government has embraced .pdf as a standard. Therefore, if you wish to fill out an online government form and be able to save it, you have to purchase a full Adobe license. What a sweet deal that must be for Adobe.

There are many free or cheap readers and editors for PDF, not just Acrobat.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 5):
Full fledged Acrobat is required to create PDFs, and up until version 5 it had everything you needed to make, modify and manipulate both documents and forms.

Acrobat is not required, I create PDFs every day on Unix, Windows and OSX without a hint of Acrobat in sight. I also havent spent any money on these tools, they are all Free and do as good a job as Acrobat.

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
2- You can't scroll easily in PDF files which makes it the most annoying format to read on PC, they just didn't get it right and still can't.

3- If you want to search for a string, you get a side-column that will display all the results, different from most everything else in the computer industry, and incredibly unusable.

I can do both of these things perfectly fine, again my advice is to get a different reader, there are plenty to choose from.

Seems you all have fallen for some damn good marketing - Adobe Acrobat is not the be all end all of PDF.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 5):
Full fledged Acrobat is required to create PDF

No it's not. Google CutePDF - free utility that will turn any document or image in to a PDF file.

I love PDF.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
searpqx
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 29):
Acrobat is not required, I create PDFs every day on Unix, Windows and OSX without a hint of Acrobat in sight. I also havent spent any money on these tools, they are all Free and do as good a job as Acrobat.



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 30):
No it's not. Google CutePDF - free utility that will turn any document or image in to a PDF file.

Ok, I wasn't clear - within the Adobe world, to fully work with PDFs (create, edit, secure, etc.) you need full fledged Acrobat. My rant was more about Adobe's attitude and direction with a product that I used to love. I know there are lots of good apps, many free, that provide similar functionality.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Ps76
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:41 am

Hi

I use Acrobat Reader 4 from www.Oldversion.com which is faster than the bigger, newer versions (especially on my Pentium II!) but is working ok for me.

Hope it helps


P.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:53 am

While I wouldn't go so far as to say I love PDFs, though I don't despise them either.

I use them everyday at work, both creating them and using those that others have created. I have never had a crash that I could attribute to a particular PDF file.

I'm currently trying to get my office to convert all the old paper documents (reports, clinical assessments, psychological evaluations) into PDFs for archiving. They agree it is a good idea, but now one has actually gotten around to actually doing something.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:21 pm

Hate them.

This is the worst one:



BF
Fortune favours the brave
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 33):
I'm currently trying to get my office to convert all the old paper documents (reports, clinical assessments, psychological evaluations) into PDFs for archiving.

I've been doing this myself at home with all my old papers that need saving, using a scanner with a sheet-feeder. It works like a charm, and I don't have to mess with looking through my filing cabinet for things, as it's all right on the computer.
International Homo of Mystery
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
using a scanner with a sheet-feeder

I'll be doing this as well as soon as the ol' wallet will allow.  Cool
I lift things up and put them down.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:30 pm

Here are good things about it:
-Document can be locked, so that nobody can mess with it...
-smaller than .doc if you have pics and screenshots, which is why I hand out all my manuals and reports to my clients in PDF.
-fits on every printer... I had so many .docs sent by other people that did not match my printer settings, page margins and so on. PDF helps big time because it adjusts automatically to the printer...
-being a German who currently lives in the US, I am dealing with different paper formats all the time. What's better than having a PDF that, see above, automatically adjusts to the local printer...
-on a MAC it really is faster than opening or just previewing a jpg on a PC. Get a MAC and work internationally, you'll immediately love PDF...
-internet printouts... Why should I waste expensive ink or be screwed when on the road without a printer, when I just save it as PDF... Invoives, screenshots, this and that...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
diamond
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:33 pm

PDF's are great for sending out an important document that you do not want to have changed or edited by recipients.

There are numerous other ways to save a PDF too. Corel and Ilustrator both 'save as' PDF. And there are some MS-Word add-ins that allow you to save as and export to PDF without having Adobe products installed.
Blank.
 
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BNE
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:47 pm

I also could not live with the usefulness of pdfs.

At work we have converted all our operating manuals into pdfs and then having them put on a CD.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
killjoy
Posts: 601
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:12 pm

I dislike pdf not because it's a bad format, but because people misuse it. It's nice for distributing things that have been laid out meticulously, but anything else would be much better off in an XML format.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 37):
-internet printouts... Why should I waste expensive ink or be screwed when on the road without a printer, when I just save it as PDF... Invoives, screenshots, this and that...

Why not save it as it was, in HTML, without losing any flexibility for later?

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 24):
Presently, yes. But a lot of forms-centric sites are going XML for their electronic filings, including the U.S. Patent Office.

God I wish everyone did this...
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Who Else Hates PDF Files?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 40):
Why not save it as it was, in HTML, without losing any flexibility for later?

HTML rendering changes (sometimes wildly) with browser version, PDF rendering shouldnt change with reader version.

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