SFOMEX
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Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:15 pm

I'm not ashamed to let you know that I cried when I read this on CNN. Before keep finding comfort in the words "collateral damage" or "war is always dirty", you should see what war really is for the people, the good people in both sides of the conflict. Take a look at the pictures and tell me if you still believe that these children are just part of the cost of war and we should move on.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/perry.tyre/index.html

I truly hope that the decent people of Israel and its government will realize that fighting the terrorist scum is one thing, killing thousands of civilians is other. They have the support of most of the world on its war on terror, but it seems that they are going way too far. A great country like Israel should never commit these barbaric acts against innocent civilians. After all, they are supposed to represent the best of the Middle East.
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Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):

Israel representing the best of the Middle East? Forgive me while I choke.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
fly727
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
Take a look at the pictures and tell me if you still believe that these children are just part of the cost of war and we should move on.

 checkmark 

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 1):
Israel representing the best of the Middle East? Forgive me while I choke.

There have been far enough threads about who's right and who's not. This isn't one of them. The pictures on the link are tragic enough to forget sides for a minute and realize how severely this is affecting society and particularly, innocent children.

RM.
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
baroque
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:34 pm

NEGOTIATE DONT BOMB - and it cuts both ways, just like a two edged sword seems to cut.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
NEGOTIATE DONT BOMB - and it cuts both ways, just like a two edged sword seems to cut.

When UK was threatened by V2 rockets did they negotiate?
No, they bombed the shit out of german cities.

For each rocket in Haifa 10 buildings in southern Beyrut's Hezbollah stronghold will go down. Israel has no intention to let hezbollah exercize and maintain their rocket arsenal. Since 2000, when Israel retreated to the international border line (acknowledged by the UN), hezbollah (with Syrian and Iranian help and financing) has stockpiled 13000 rockets. So far more than 2000 have been fired on exclusevely residential areas in northern Israel - resulting in civilian casualties only. I would also like to remind you that the first rockets were fired during the the abduction of two Israeli soldiers - before the IDF has started its offensive. Hezbollah is a strong organization with substantiate backup - their power should not be understimated. These are not kids with rocks, therefore a proper military offensive should , and is, being used.
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Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):

As usual you continue to live in the past. We are in 2006 not 1943. You are deliberating killing Lebanese children with the hope that this will make the Lebanese civilian population turn on Hizbollah. Your countrys military strategy is so fucked up and you are going to pay the cost by your countrys eventual very sound defeat.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:10 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 5):
As usual you continue to live in the past

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:13 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 6):

Anyone tell you retribution is counter-productive?
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:14 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 7):
Anyone tell you retribution is counter-productive?

Let's agree to disagree.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
baroque
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):
When UK was threatened by V2 rockets did they negotiate?
No, they bombed the shit out of german cities.

Glad you have learned so much in the following 62 years. As a matter of fact you dont even seem to have learned the original facts too well either. The V2 had a 1000 kg warhead, rather different from current Hez missiles. The area raids were not associated with the V2 campaign either in prospect or to defeat it.

The UK mounted attacks on the V2 sites. Look at the history of 617 squadron for example although most of the attacks used smaller and more agile planes.

But back to the present. So you dont want to negotiate, OK dont act surprised if someone does as you recommend. The double edged sword remember.
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):

Very well put my Australian friend! Have a VB or XXXX on me!
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:23 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):
When UK was threatened by V2 rockets did they negotiate?

The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them. This took compromises on both sides.

The African National Congress is now a legitimate political party after decades of terrorist activities.

Its proven to work.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The UK mounted attacks on the V2 sites.

yeah, right. Perhaps you should see the photos of German cities in 1944.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
As a matter of fact you dont even seem to have learned the original facts too well eithe

Neither did you. hezbollah's arsenal include long range Iranian rockets capable of hitting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The UK mounted attacks on the V2 sites

As does Israel. Unlike the germans , hezbollah has a habit of storing their rockets in mosques and other civilian facilities.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
OK dont act surprised if someone does as you recommend. The double edged sword remember.

We are ready for that. Somehow we've managed pretty good so far without advisories from Australia.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):

Another excellent post-keep them comin!
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them

Did they fired rockets on you? IRA example maybe good for PLO, not hamas and hezbollah.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:41 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 14):

Did they fired rockets on you? IRA example maybe good for PLO, not hamas and hezbollah.

Yes they did. Many pipe bomb, mortar and rocket attacks both in the provinces and on the mainland.

There were many attacks against Heathrow in this manner as well.
 
andessmf
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:46 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them. This took compromises on both sides.

Big difference. The IRA was not attempting the elimination of British from Ireland. IRA was also well versed in telling the authorities that a bomb was coming and getting the civilians out of the way.

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 5):
You are deliberating killing Lebanese children

First, you fail to mention that Hezbollah is doing the same. Second, what if this is 'Jenin Massacre' syndrome again. If you dont believe my words, read the UN report about it.

"The battle attracted widespread international attention because journalists, particularly in the UK, falsely reported that a massacre of Palestinians had taken place during the fighting, and that hundreds, or even thousands, of bodies had been secretly buried in mass graves by the IDF, allegations that were later shown to be baseless."

"The United Nations report said that the number of Palestinians killed was at least 52, [22 of whom were civilians, according to Human Rights Watch (HRW). 23 Israeli soldiers were killed."

Did anybody ever apologize to Israel for such accussations? No.

So forgive me if I wont completely believe what the casualties are until this conflict is over and an independent body write a report.

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
killing thousands of civilians is other.

"At least 381 people have been killed in Lebanon, including 20 soldiers and 11 Hezbollah fighters, according to security officials."

Please, no need to exaggerate.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:54 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Big difference. The IRA was not attempting the elimination of British from Ireland. IRA was also well versed in telling the authorities that a bomb was coming and getting the civilians out of the way.

The stated aim of the IRA was infact to return Northern Ireland to self rule, free it from British rule. Also it was a proxy war between Catholics and Protestants, with each side wishing to destroy the other.

So yes, the IRA was attempting the elimination of British from Ireland.

And the fact that they made warnings (not always) was the only thing in their favour - their targets were political.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
First, you fail to mention that Hezbollah is doing the same

Yet again, I say the following:

You cannot claim the higher path and then complain when you are held to that higher path.
 
andessmf
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:02 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
You cannot claim the higher path and then complain when you are held to that higher path.

Hezbollah is directly aiming their missiles towards civilian areas. You can claim the same for Israel, but there is no proof. And as noted above with the Jenin Massacre, military actions casualties by Israel have a horrible habit of being exaggerated by large factors.

Here is an interesting story of this 'massacre' by Time Mag:
http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html

Let me show some interesting qoutes:

"Palestinian officials had said that as many as 800 had been killed. As is the case in the Middle East, the figure was inflated to fit local beliefs of Israeli depravity and Palestinian victimization"

"A senior Palestinian military officer tells Time it was probably the gunmen's own booby traps that buried some civilians and fighters alive"

Again, forgive me if I am right now a little skeptical of the casualty claims coming from Hezbollah.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:11 pm

If Britain had retaliated here the way Israel is retaliating in Lebanon we would be still embroiled in serious conflict on these islands with thousands more dead. Instead we have had peace, not perfect, but it is peace.
 
andessmf
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 19):
If Britain had retaliated here the way Israel is retaliating in Lebanon we would be still embroiled in serious conflict on these islands with thousands more dead

Has Hezbollah done this yet?
"On July 28, 2005, the Provisional IRA Army Council announced an end to its armed campaign, stating that it would work to achieve its aims using "purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means" and that "IRA Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever".

Plus the Irish never had in their aims the explicit extermination of a country.
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:44 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):

Where is it written that Hizbollah has?
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Has Hezbollah done this yet?

That announcement didnt come suddenly and out of the blue, there was a massive political build up to it, including several ceasefires. The IRA still had an active campaign during the peace talks and did revert to terrorism when the talks break down.

Currently the biggest threat to the peace in Ireland is not the terrorist groups imho but the Reverend Iain Paisley, who is literally demanding everything under the sun and claiming nothing that Sin Fein or the IRA does is good enough. He wants the entire process under his terms and his terms only.
 
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 22):

Didnt realise that absolute nutter was still around.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Has Hezbollah done this yet?
"On July 28, 2005, the Provisional IRA Army Council announced an end to its armed campaign, stating that it would work to achieve its aims using "purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means" and that "IRA Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever".

Plus the Irish never had in their aims the explicit extermination of a country.

Does it matter whether the extermination of a country is the aim when innocent civilians are being bombed and murdered? Also, there is no way that a terrorist orgnisation the size of the IRA (NOT the Irish -- the IRA represent a very small minority of us, and most of them are Northern Irish) could possibly have achieved the extermination of the United Kingdom.

RichardPrice is right when he says there was a massive political build-up, over a decade and a half of talks, before any sort of settlement was reached.

The ONLY solution is political. I wonder how many future suicide bombers are being created at the moment.
 
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 18):
You can claim the same for Israel, but there is no proof.

Er, just look at the latest photos from Lebanon. Oh dear, we flattened your apartments/school/hospital? Never mind, I'm sure Hezbollah have thought about using those facilities. sarcastic 

All Israel is going to acheive with its current strategy is to drive up recruitment for Hezbollah. banghead 
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Emirates773ER
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
So forgive me if I wont completely believe what the casualties are until this conflict is over and an independent body write a report.

I would never asked such a question after seeing a 8 year old boy lying in a hospital bed convulsing in shock with blood coming from his eyes. If you research about facts after taking action then war is not for u.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
baroque
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 14):
Did they fired rockets on you? IRA example maybe good for PLO, not hamas and hezbollah.

RP and BB have answered the questions in relation to the IRA. I know of at least one other user on A.net who was on the receiving end of the V campaign but I will not try to second guess what he would say. But yes, "they" fired rockets at me. Now what was your next question?

How would you know if Hamas and Hez are or are not like IRA if you dont talk to them? I dont think the Brits thought the IRA were or indeed are really nice bunch, nor did they relish the thought of talking to them, but the results are there. And yes, the Rev is still trying to rev em up. With help from him, the UK has never been in need of an enemy.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 24):
The ONLY solution is political. I wonder how many future suicide bombers are being created at the moment.

Now there is a question I can answer - many many.

[Edited 2006-07-24 17:19:04]
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them

Ineed so. It als o worked for PLO, excpet Arafat chose not to wait until the negotiatins over and started the second intifada. That being said, Israel has been trying to negotiate with the PLO since 1991 and some progress was made. Again PLO/IRa comparison is correct. Hamas and Hezbollah are a different game field.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
How would you know if Hamas and Hez are or are not like IRA if you dont talk to them?

Did IRA stated as its primary goal elimination of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland, and declaration of a catholic religious state on the entire territory of the British islands?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
But yes, "they" fired rockets at me

Please enlighten me. IRA firing SRBMs on UK territory. When did that happen?

Baroque, I am all for the negotiations, even with hamas once the so called "national agrrement document" is accepted by them. Hezbollah is a different story. They atatcked Israel, took POWs , all that while breaching an internationally recognised border between two sovereign states. This is war and they will be punished.
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baroque
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 28):
Did IRA stated as its primary goal elimination of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland, and declaration of a catholic religious state on the entire territory of the British islands?

You pretty much got that right.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 28):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 27):
But yes, "they" fired rockets at me

Please enlighten me. IRA firing SRBMs on UK territory. When did that happen?

Dear oh me, your short term memory must be going. In reply 12 you berated me about V2s and then asked if "they" fired rockets at "you". RP was too young to be on the receiving end, but I was not. AS did indeed send over a number of his one tonne warhead greetings cards. You asked, I answered "yes", and then asked what your next question was. Over to you.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 28):
They atatcked Israel, took POWs , all that while breaching an internationally recognised border between two sovereign states. This is war and they will be punished.

Mmmm, yes, they did that, and I seem to recall (us oldies have not so much trouble with the long term memory) that Israel attacked Lebanon, breaching an internationally recognised border, took some thousand of prisoners usw.

It all looks pretty symmetrical in those terms, but the current effort lacks a bit of symmetry.

Time to negotiate, not time to bomb.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
You pretty much got that right.

Wrong:
The goals of the IRA can be summed up by this excerpt of the Irish Declaration of Independence, written in 1919:
"We solemnly declare foreign government in Ireland to be an invasion of our natural right which we will never tolerate, and we demand the evacuation of our country by the English Garrison" (Dail Eireann. Minutes of the Proceedings of the First Parliament of the Republic of Ireland).

Their goal was unification of Ireland and had nothing to do with English, Scottish and Welsh territories.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Dear oh me, your short term memory must be going. In reply 12 you berated me about V2s and then asked if "they" fired rockets at "you". RP was too young to be on the receiving end, but I was not. AS did indeed send over a number of his one tonne warhead greetings cards. You asked, I answered "yes", and then asked what your next question was. Over to you.

1. My mistake. I was sure that by "they" you meant IRA.
2. I don't quite understand you. I did not doubt your presence in Europe during the WWII, and being in areas attacked by Vs. Your point? that if you went through it so shoud we? Bullocks. 2 of my grandfathers went through the same war you did, one of them amongst the forces that took Berlin. I know exactly what means were used by the allies to force germany down.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
that Israel attacked Lebanon, breaching an internationally recognised border, took some thousand of prisoners usw.

In 1982 Israel invaded to Lebanon dues to the same simple reason: terror attacks through the border. Israel hit Lebanon and PLO - and look what happened - by the early 90s PLO was ready to recognize Israel and the amount of terror from PLO slightly reduced - and could have been zero now if not for Hamas. So you point is invalid.
Hezbollah has even less justification than PLO did in the 70s - they are not even Palestinians. They are an Iran backed terror organization that has as a primary goal complete annihilation of Israel.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:18 am

This volley is going nowhere and solving nothing, let alone sticking to the topic.

Looks more like a huge pissing match.

Suggest thread lock or deletion.
You can't cure stupid
 
baroque
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 30):
Wrong:
The goals of the IRA can be summed up by this excerpt of the Irish Declaration of Independence, written in 1919:
"We solemnly declare foreign government in Ireland to be an invasion of our natural right which we will never tolerate, and we demand the evacuation of our country by the English Garrison" (Dail Eireann. Minutes of the Proceedings of the First Parliament of the Republic of Ireland).

Their goal was unification of Ireland and had nothing to do with English, Scottish and Welsh territories.

Dearie me, must remember not to be charitable. You remember I wrote "pretty much". I did that because your text was so tangled it would have been impolite to dissect it and reply in detail. I will either totally ignore you in future or do just that.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 30):
1. My mistake. I was sure that by "they" you meant IRA.
2. I don't quite understand you.

You are correct at last, it was your mistake. And again, correct, you dont understand me.
You asked if I had had rockets sent over at me, and as it happens the answer is YES. Dont ask if you dont want to know.

[Edited 2006-07-24 19:52:23]
 
SlamClick
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):

Where is your criticism of Hezbollah for deliberately hiding among women and children?

Where is your acknowledgement of Lebanon's share of the blame for not asking for world assistance in getting Hezbollah under control in their country BEFORE they started a war?

Absent, it seems to me.

And in its absence all you have accomplished is to side against Israel. That places you in agreement with Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas.

Good company?

You should have passed blame all around on the first try.
You did not.

edit: This kind of response is the POINT of the political cartoon that so many pretended not to get, or claimed to be inaccurate. This kind of thinking proves its point: In effect it is all Israel's fault. To think that you would need to have already chosen right & wrong in the issue. To claim not to see this from that cartoon you would have to be incredibly dense, obtuse or dishonest. This point was made.

[Edited 2006-07-24 20:12:17]
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SFOMEX
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
And in its absence all you have accomplished is to side against Israel. That places you in agreement with Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas.

Good company?

I doubt that someone "in agreement with Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas" would endorse my statement calling Israel a great country and the best of the Middle East, but if that kind of absurd reasoning helps you to deny the bloody mistakes that the IDF is committing, well, it's your prerogative.  Yeah sure

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
I truly hope that the decent people of Israel and its government will realize that fighting the terrorist scum is one thing, killing thousands of civilians is other. They have the support of most of the world on its war on terror, but it seems that they are going way too far. A great country like Israel should never commit these barbaric acts against innocent civilians. After all, they are supposed to represent the best of the Middle East.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for Muslim terrorists and their backers. That's why in a different thread I posted that I could not support Lebanon or the Gaza Strip since I think they are the ones to be blamed for this crisis. Nonetheless, I'm not blind to the suffering of civilians. Let me ask you this: do you think that bombing a car carrying a family fleeing the war zone is justified? I think is not, that's why I don't hesitate to held Israel accountable for this tragedy.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
SlamClick
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 34):
I don't hesitate to held Israel accountable for this tragedy

You have chosen. So noted.

Your solution is what?
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SFOMEX
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 35):



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 34):
Let me ask you this: do you think that bombing a car carrying a family fleeing the war zone is justified?
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
andessmf
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 28):
Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them

Ineed so. It als o worked for PLO, excpet Arafat chose not to wait until the negotiatins over and started the second intifada. That being said, Israel has been trying to negotiate with the PLO since 1991 and some progress was made. Again PLO/IRa comparison is correct. Hamas and Hezbollah are a different game field.

Yes, they have, but I was thinking deep and hard for hours about this. The troubles between Ireland and the UK have gone on for how long? Was it not since 1918? What about the 1972 Bloody Sunday?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29
The British were also actively fighting the IRA in Ireland for many decades. Until both sides decide to sit down and agree to actual peace (not ceasefire) negotiations, this conflict will continue. I have not heard any Hezbollah spokesman suggest that the time is now ripe for PEACE negotiations, however.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 34):
Let me ask you this: do you think that bombing a car carrying a family fleeing the war zone is justified?

No, it is never justified, but w/o knowing the context of what occurred, it is hard to pin blame on what happened. There have been plenty of stories about an explosion in a Gaza Strip house, for example, where the Palestinians claim that an Israeli rocket wrongly targetted civilians, and the Israelis claim that a bombmaker in the house accidentaly blew up his bomb. Who do you blame for that mistake?
 
SlamClick
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 36):
Let me ask you this: do you think that bombing a car carrying a family fleeing the war zone is justified?

You still have no words of scorn for suicide bombers for LEBANESE missiles raining down on Israel. You still have no tears for Israeli children.

You have chosen sides and if you count yourself a man you will admit it.

Children die in Israel too but you don't give a damn for them because you said so. You said so by posting THIS story and not one from the other side for balance. That is called choosing sides.

Justification has nothing whatever to do with the conduct of a war, only with the reasons for going to war in the first place. Those of us here who have actually experienced war unerstand this. It is an unholy business and should never be begun, but once it is, the only real rule is don't lose.

Lebanon (or Hezbollah and frankly I no longer see any difference) chose to start this war. Perhaps you can tell my why they did so.

Maybe they didn't think they were doing so, maybe they just can't tell the difference between a hornets' nest and a piñata.

There is NOTHING in Israel's 58 year history to lead one to believe that they would tolerate having soldiers kidnaped inside their own sovereign borders and having LEBANON rain missiles down upon them. So Lebanon chose this war.

The only mistake Israel can make at this point is losing it and I don't see that happening.
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SFOMEX
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 38):
You still have no words of scorn for suicide bombers for LEBANESE missiles raining down on Israel. You still have no tears for Israeli children.

BS. You only read what you want to read. Once again, let me copy and paste what I posted in the first place:

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
Before keep finding comfort in the words "collateral damage" or "war is always dirty", you should see what war really is for the people, the good people in both sides of the conflict

The words "both sides" are clear. The CNN article was about a Lebanese family but we all know that children are suffering in this war and that includes Israeli and Lebanese children. It's a fact that Hezbollah members are terrorists, murderers targeting civilians in Israel. It would be naive to ask them to avoid killing civilians because they behave like beasts. Hezbollah's destruction is a goal most people support. As I see it, the IDF is the army of a modern country, thus subjected to the same standards that any other western army. The IDF should not target a car with a family trying to flee, period. Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorists have no regard for the human life; I truly believe the IDF is not like them.

Your blind, uncritical support of Israel is in the end useless. The real friends of the Jewish State are those willing to stand by its side without giving up their right to point out what is wrong in Israel.

Hence, I reject your childish accusation. If anything, I am at the side of Israel and all the nations fighting terrorism.
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Bobster2
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 39):
BS. You only read



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 39):
Your blind,



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 39):
your childish accusation

That's enough. Almost all the posts in this thread are off topic. Then the OP puts the icing on the cake by making personal attacks against one person who tries to stay on topic.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 40):
Then the OP puts the icing on the cake by making personal attacks against one person who tries to stay on topic.

Wow... I called his support of Israel blind and his accusation against me of taking sides with Lebanon childish. If that is considered a personal attack, well, then I was "attacked" too by his harsh comments. However, I think SlamClick was being incisive in a topic important to all of us and I take no offense. I look forward to read his answer.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
andessmf
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 39):
The IDF should not target a car with a family trying to flee, period.

Please, I hate repeating myself. There have been plenty of mainstream media outlets that have been complicit in accusing Israel of committing 'war crimes', w/o presenting the opposite point of view. We might find out later that this was something completely different, and CNN will not run a correction of their error.
 
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 42):
Please, I hate repeating myself. There have been plenty of mainstream media outlets that have been complicit in accusing Israel of committing 'war crimes', w/o presenting the opposite point of view. We might find out later that this was something completely different, and CNN will not run a correction of their error.

I see your point AndesSMF and it has merits. Israel is not a darling of the liberal media. Yet, considering the context of the incident it seems that Israel made a horrible mistake here. Even allies of Israel as the UK are warning it about the consequences of the excessive use of force. It's taken for Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper:

"Foreign Office minister Kim Howells, meeting with Israeli officials in Haifa, said public recognition of the scale of destruction in Lebanon was needed.

"I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon," Howells said, after visiting locations in Lebanon a day earlier. "The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people. These have not been surgical strikes."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741787.html

This British officer acknowledges that Israel's actions are killing "so many children and so many people". I wonder if SlamClick would consider that Mr. Howells is in "agreement with Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas."

I too hate repeating myself, but the real friends of the Jewish State are those willing to stand by its side without giving up their right to point out what is wrong in Israel.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:03 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
NEGOTIATE DONT BOMB

What should they negotiate? A cease fire? The root problem will still be there. Israel or the Lebanese need to remove the root of the problem, Hezbollah. Anything else is just a chance for the Hezzies to regroup.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
andessmf
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 43):
I too hate repeating myself, but the real friends of the Jewish State are those willing to stand by its side without giving up their right to point out what is wrong in Israel.

The problem about pointing out what they have done wrong is that this criticism is easily used by Hezbollah and its supporters to justify their actions. I could just see the glee in Hezbollah's eyes when Kim Howells was essentially agreeing with their position that Israel is targetting civilians. These comments can then easily be broadcasted around the world, and providing additional justification for the Israeli haters out there. Does this serve any good purpose now? No.

The emphasis needs to be on the elimination of Hezbollah, there will be plenty of time to investigate all these allegations later, once the enemy is defeated. Like the Pearl Harbor inquiry, started in 1945.

And right on cue:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060724/...p_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_aid

"The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of "cowardly blending" in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel."

[Edited 2006-07-25 07:11:58]
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Dearie me, must remember not to be charitable. You remember I wrote "pretty much". I did that because your text was so tangled it would have been impolite to dissect it and reply in detail. I will either totally ignore you in future or do just that.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
You are correct at last, it was your mistake. And again, correct, you dont understand me.
You asked if I had had rockets sent over at me, and as it happens the answer is YES. Dont ask if you dont want to know.

Apparently you are incapable of having a normal discussion. Perhaps mutual ignoring is the right way .
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
qr332
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 6):
"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

Oh the irony, this is coming from an Israeli Jew! This is in no way meant to be an anti-semetic post, but Jews have suffered a lot in the past at the hands of others, yet Israel today has no problem invading countries, indiscriminately killing and oppressing civilians, and claiming to have the high moral ground at the same time! The past of the Jews, LY, yet only three years after the fall of the Nazis, Jewish immigrants in Palestine had no problem with ethnically cleansing Palestinians and massacring them in several places. When Israelis start learning from their own history, my friend, then you can use those quotes. But, as long as Israeli and non-Israeli roads exist in the West Bank, don't talk to me about the past repeating itself.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
Neither did you. hezbollah's arsenal include long range Iranian rockets capable of hitting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

And they have every right in the world to hit Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Israel have had no problem bombing the hell out of the capital of Lebanon and killing its civilians - it didn't have any problems back in 1982, and still doesn't have any. Any attack on Israeli cities will get no sympathy from me, Israel is pretty much asking for it with all they are doing in Lebanon.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
First, you fail to mention that Hezbollah is doing the same. Second, what if this is 'Jenin Massacre' syndrome again. If you dont believe my words, read the UN report about it

Jenin Massacre Syndrome?! First of all, while the estimates were high, do you have any idea how much life was distrupted in Jenin after the Israeli attack? The amount of homes destroyed, the amount of alreadypoor families made poorer? As for your comments, the numbers speak much louder than words - 353 civilian deaths and none of the world's governments have the balls to do anything that makes a real difference about it. Put yourself in that mother's position, Andes, and then tell me that this is merley something people are making up.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Did anybody ever apologize to Israel for such accussations? No.

Israel's past speaks much more clearly as to why people thought this. And why should people apologize to Israel? The damage done in Jenin and Nablus in that year was huge, and it was disgusting that (as usual) the world remained silent.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 18):
Hezbollah is directly aiming their missiles towards civilian areas. You can claim the same for Israel, but there is no proof. And as noted above with the Jenin Massacre, military actions casualties by Israel have a horrible habit of being exaggerated by large factors.

Then what proof do you have that Hezbollah is aiming for civilian areas if you are going to use that argument? Hezbollah is just firing their rockets at Israeli cities, so that must mean they do not want civilian casualties, right?  Yeah sure And is Israel flattening block after block of Beirut's southern suburbs not enough evidence for you? Also, why is it Israel can kill civilians yet when Hezbollah retaliate to this you guys jump up about it? If your going to speak out about Israeli civlians being killed, then do it about the Lebanese and Palestinian ones too and drop your pathetic double standards.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 28):
Ineed so. It als o worked for PLO, excpet Arafat chose not to wait until the negotiatins over and started the second intifada. That being said, Israel has been trying to negotiate with the PLO since 1991 and some progress was made. Again PLO/IRa comparison is correct. Hamas and Hezbollah are a different game field.

LY, drop the propoganda. The Intifada was not something started by one preson, so stop trying to put a spin on things to make them further your cause. The intifada was the people reacting to Sharon's provocative visit and the subsquent Israeli aggression in the Palestinian territories.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 28):
Baroque, I am all for the negotiations, even with hamas once the so called "national agrrement document" is accepted by them. Hezbollah is a different story. They atatcked Israel, took POWs , all that while breaching an internationally recognised border between two sovereign states. This is war and they will be punished.

What, getting a taste of your own medicine isn't all that nice? I mean, Israel was created breaching borders and expelling people, and from the time it got its independance it repeatedly did the same thing over and over again:
1956 - Egypt, along with the UK and France -
1967 - Breached the international borders of 3 countries (Syria, Egypt & Jordan), invading the Sinai peninsula and the Golan Heights (which they still occupy)
1982 - Lebanon, the amount of damage Israel did was huge in Lebanon, and the civilian deaths caused by them directly or indirectly was in the thousands.

Who are you kidding, LY? The attack was a military attack, and its response was insanely out of proportion. Tell me, how would Israel react if a country had Israeli POWs and refused to negotiate?

My post might be harsh, but this is what happens when you see how disgusting Israel's attack has been on Lebanon, and how many lives have been wrecked. While Israel cries to the world about its citizens being forced to stay in shelters, there are 700,000 Lebanese civilians who are now refugees, 353 civilians dead and 1,100 civilians injured. All this and you still can claim Israel doesn't target civilians with a straight face?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
qr332
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 45):
The problem about pointing out what they have done wrong is that this criticism is easily used by Hezbollah and its supporters to justify their actions. I could just see the glee in Hezbollah's eyes when Kim Howells was essentially agreeing with their position that Israel is targetting civilians. These comments can then easily be broadcasted around the world, and providing additional justification for the Israeli haters out there. Does this serve any good purpose now? No.

So in other words, the world should just shut up and look the other way? I can just see the glee in Israel's eyes when America didn't even call for a ceasefire, when it vetoed Qatar's resolution, and when the world still watches without talking. Yes, this does serve a very good purpose - it shows what animals the people you are supporting really are. It also says a lot about yourself that you support not reporting the facts and hiding the reality of the situation in order to further push forward Israel's goals.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 45):
The emphasis needs to be on the elimination of Hezbollah, there will be plenty of time to investigate all these allegations later, once the enemy is defeated. Like the Pearl Harbor inquiry, started in 1945.

So you see it as justifiable to go into a country, wreck it, bomb the shit out of it, displace 700,000 of its civilians, cause over 300 deaths and 1,000 injuries, destroy its infrastructure completley, destory block after block of a city, and just ignore it until the dirty work is done? So basically, screw Lebanon, it can go to hell, it is only Israel that matters in this world?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 45):
"The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of "cowardly blending" in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel."

Surprise, surprise. Again, I will say what many Lebanese civilians have said themselves - that the targets Israel are hitting have no Hezbollah presence. Residents of villages in south Lebanon which have had bombs and missles hit their houses have lost relatives and friends for no reason, Israel just uses this excuse to justify everything. Now, the really interesting thing is that the death of the civilians is blamed on Hezbollah, not the people who are actually killing them!

Also, lets assume that Israel are hitting Hezbollah fighters hiding among the civilians. Also, lets consider the amount of missles and bombs falling on Lebanon. Does it seem logical to you that Israel can pinpoint where every single Hezbollah fighter is and take him out? If these were surgical strikes, it would be apparent, but the huge amount of destruction and casualties prove that this is nothing but bullshit which is brought up to justify what Israel is doing.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
ly7e7
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RE: Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 47):
The Intifada was not something started by one preson, so stop trying to put a spin on things to make them further your cause. The intifada was the people reacting to Sharon's provocative visit and the subsquent Israeli aggression in the Palestinian territories.

See who has the nerves to speak about propaganda  Smile

Sharon, as every Israeli citizen had and has a full righ to visit a pace holy to his/her religion.

Should I remind in you that the war in 1982 started for the same reason: islamic terrorism against israel from the northern border. So cut your crap once and for all, terrorist apologist.
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