cfalk
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Diesel Vs Hybrid

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:33 pm

Instead of goofing around with gasoline hybrids, why don't Americans start demanding more availability of diesel cars? They are far more efficient than hybrids (see http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x.htm ), they are based on very well-tested and known technology, and are far, far simpler technologically, which means more reliable down the road.

Right now, only a few diesel cars are available in the US. http://www.dieselforum.org/where-is-...s-suvs/diesels-for-sale-in-the-us/

If you REALLY want to reduce fuel consumption, start demanding diesel hybrids. As gasoline hybrids have proven to be more efficient than normal gasoline powered cars, diesel-hybrids should provide another 30% advantage over that.

Some states have environmental restrictions that have effectively banned diesel cars. Now that low-sulfer fuel is here, these rules should be relaxed. The primary policy should be to reduce oil usage, and diesel does that better than any gasoline-dependant solution, which includes the current generation of hybrids.

PS: I'm back from my first ever ban on A-net!
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navymidn
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:44 pm

Well, what you say makes sense. Therefore, it will never happen  Smile. I have been a proponent of diesel power for a while, but I always come up against people who let their preconceived ideas about diesels rule their thoughts. Many people hear the word diesel, and immediately think about old, dirty semis. They don't even think about the new diesel technology that makes them as clean, if not cleaner, than many gas engines. It's popular perception vs actual technology. I believe, maybe some members can weigh in on this more, that in Europe, diesels are much more accepted in smaller vehicles. Maybe that is the way we need to go in this country.
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UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:46 pm

Welcome back Charles  Silly

Co2 emissions are indeed lower than diesels but NoX/sulfur/soot/etc emissions are much higher.

Being Swiss you might have also noticed that diesels are far more polluting in mountaineous regions then gasoline engines as the engines struggle to cope with the altitudes/lower oxygen levels; it appears that even the new TDI's/HDI's/dCI's/whateDer have trouble getting the fuel/air mixture right.

As for simpler technology and better reliability, that might have been true of earlier old-generation D's and TD's but it seems less so with the aforementioned latest-technology diesels where a minute amount of water in the fuel system can ruin the engine.

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NeilYYZ
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:53 pm

Personally, I love Diesel, at work I get to drive a Chevy Diesel Duramax 5500, a great truck with tons of power. I see gas klunkers all day spitting out more black smoke than the truck I drive, in fact, there is no black smoke coming out of the truck.

I have to say that I agree with you, it would make sense to get a diesel hybrid going, I wonder if Mercedes ever considered a hybrid Kompressor, that would probably be a fantastic car.
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Klaus
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 2):
Co2 emissions are indeed lower than diesels but NoX/sulfur/soot/etc emissions are much higher.

Sulfuric compounds should no longer be a problem with modern diesel fuel.

Soot is taken care of by soot filters in modern cars. So no problem any more as well.

NOx emissions, however, remain a problem. A much smaller problem than the dirty exhaust of the old gas or diesel engines, but still a problem. At this point, at least.

In the end the decision between hybrid or diesel (or better yet, diesel hybrid) depends a lot on your usage pattern.

With a lot of long-range driving a hybrid won't actually save anything. It would only carry around a lot of dead weight while a diesel can be extremely efficient.

Conversely, a hybrid shines in city traffic with a lot of stop and go where a diesel (alone) would be much less efficient.

It depends.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:40 pm

The USA is phasing down over the next 2-3 years the surfur content of diesel fuel that would allow the introduction of modern high tech diesel engines here. It will make diesel fuel more expensive however, with the price negating it's advantages.
The diesel hybrid would be excellent for taxis, busses, urban delivery vehicles here in the USA. USA carmakers could make the smaller engines in Mexico or Brazil to reduce the manufacturing costs, making engines under license with the Euro companies that seem to have the best tech for them.
 
Go3Team
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
The USA is phasing down over the next 2-3 years the surfur content of diesel fuel that would allow the introduction of modern high tech diesel engines here. It will make diesel fuel more expensive however, with the price negating it's advantages.

Considering the '07 Model Year EPA rules, Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) must be available this fall. Take a look at a Diesel Fuel Pump, and it should have a sticker indicating that it is illegal to fuel a ULSD Diesel Engine from that pump. I do not know when ULSD will be available, but chances are, it will be like the '02 rules (EGR), where the fuel economy of the pre '02 engines had 15-25% better fuel economy than the post '02 engines. Our fleet average pre '02: 5.75mpg, post '02: 4.4mpg. We might see ours dip into the 3.xx with this mess.
Yay Pudding!
 
cfalk
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 6):
Considering the '07 Model Year EPA rules, Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) must be available this fall. Take a look at a Diesel Fuel Pump, and it should have a sticker indicating that it is illegal to fuel a ULSD Diesel Engine from that pump. I do not know when ULSD will be available, but chances are, it will be like the '02 rules (EGR), where the fuel economy of the pre '02 engines had 15-25% better fuel economy than the post '02 engines. Our fleet average pre '02: 5.75mpg, post '02: 4.4mpg. We might see ours dip into the 3.xx with this mess.

The fact of the matter is that we in Europe have had diesel cars in great numbers for many years (around half of all passenger cars in Europe are diesel), and we also went to low-sulfer fuels. And the mileage differences are very significant. Consumption of 30-40% less fuel is common in models that offer both diesel and gas engines. No need for the US to reinvent the wheel in the short term - just use EU specs.

Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 2):
Being Swiss you might have also noticed that diesels are far more polluting in mountaineous regions then gasoline engines as the engines struggle to cope with the altitudes/lower oxygen levels; it appears that even the new TDI's/HDI's/dCI's/whateDer have trouble getting the fuel/air mixture right.

Diesels seem more sensitive to altitude, but turbos are the great equalizer. The turbocharger is set to give a certain amount of pressure, and compensates to a large extent the thinner air. Climb a mountain pass in a normally asperated car, and you can feel it wheezing badly at 8-10,000 feet, but a turbocharged engine has almost the same power as in the valley.

Secondly, I think the environment has to take second priority to reducing the amount of oil we have to import from OPEC.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Superfly
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:05 am

Finally Cfalk starts a thread I agree with 100%.
I wish more diesels were availible here in the US.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Go3Team
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
I wish more diesels were availible here in the US.

You like the older cars, get yourself an early 80's Diesel Olds, and throw in a Duramax. That outta be pretty nice.
Yay Pudding!
 
alfa75
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:28 am

I would probably prefer the vehicle that had lower overall emissions. Although you can't beat the mileage of a diesel. And around here diesel is about $.17 less a gallon than regular unleaded.

Toyota will be coming out with a plug in hybrid soon. I wonder what the emission impact is from the electricity generated from a non-renewable electricty source (coal or gas fired plant)?
The best things in life aren't things!
 
Superfly
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 9):
You like the older cars, get yourself an early 80's Diesel Olds, and throw in a Duramax. That outta be pretty nice.

Haha!
I have some great ideas with a lot of those 1979-1985 GM gas/converted diesels as well as the diesel Lincolns of 1984-1985.
It would be interest to find a 1984-85 Cadillac Eldorado convertible with a diesel. Then convert that to a biodiesel.

I would love it if Mercury made an another Colony Park station wagon with woodgrain side panels based off the current Grand Marquis design. Then drop in the current Powerstroke turbodiesel motor and make the wagon with availible 4wheel drive.  yes 
That would be the ultimate all purpose car.
Bring back the Concorde
 
mirrodie
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:39 am

currently on the market for a car and I was thinking the same. but doesnt distance driven daily play a role in the savings?

I discussed this with a friend and member of anet who works on diesel cars and autos and for the 15 miles roundtrip that I drive daily, he implied that my savings would really not be much...seems that in my case, hybrid, diesel or standard, I am not going to hit those savings.

But I'd rather a diesel. Just doesnt seem I'd save much, would I? In other words, is it a case by case scenario?
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alfa75
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 12):
currently on the market for a car and I was thinking the same. but doesnt distance driven daily play a role in the savings?

15 miles isn't much. However, how would you feel riding a scooter like a Vespa?

There would be big savings there. Even if you couldn't ride it in the winter like where I live.

The only thing that keeps me from getting one is that I get a demo from work so I have no payments or insurance to worry about plus I have a 40 mile commute each way by highway 50 by back roads. Probably too far for a Vespa.
The best things in life aren't things!
 
Superfly
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:10 pm

Mirrode:
I know you like Buicks and they did have diesels at one time.
Too bad you have to go back to 1985 or older to get that nice diesel powered Park Avenue, LeSabre, Regal or Century.

City driving in a diesel will save you some.
The one import I'll admit to owning was a 1980 Volkswagen Dasher diesel wagon.
In the city traffic, I would still get 32 mpg and 50 on the hiway.
Bring back the Concorde
 
baroque
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RE: Diesel Vs Hybrid

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:05 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
No need for the US to reinvent the wheel in the short term - just use EU specs.

Oh dearie me, now you've done it. The NIH factor cranks in. Do you have a spare time job for the mafia giving "that" kiss?  Smile

Seriously, what I dont see are calculations showing the long term costs (both in dollar - franc - terms and environmental costs) for the batteries. It always struck me that pushing or pulling those heavy batteries around leaves you well behind the eight ball. And then there are replacement costs. What is the situation with recovery of the battery contents?

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