EurostarVA
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Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:49 pm

I have been following your coverage of the Israeli attack on Lebanon through your site, and I am appalled to see the lack of information provided to your audience on the ACTUAL escalation of events that has truly led to this inconceivably unjust and criminal military onslaught onto Lebanon and its citizens by the terrorist government of Israel.

Lebanon and the Lebanese population will suffer for months, if not years, to recover from this heinous offensive on their territory and their sovereignty, all in the name of Israel's self-defense. Without justifying the kidnappings themselves, it must be pointed out that Israel's existence and well being have not come under any real threat as a result of the kidnappings, or as a result of any other event in recent history for that
matter. How much self-defending does Israel really need to do with the superpower of the day standing so closely behind, disbursing billions, deploying masses of weapons, invading countries opposed to Israel's existence and biting ferociously at any reproachful finger that may be pointed in Israel's direction?

The majority of articles published on your site instigate that the Israeli hostilities against Lebanon are retaliation to Hezbollah kidnapping two Israeli soldiers, echoing President Bush's sentiment that the kidnappings give Israel the 'right to defend itself'. Has not one author in your team, nor any of your editors, nor yourself, thought it relevant to
mention the months and years of Israeli kidnappings of Palestinian and Lebanese
civilians, officials and public figures that have gone without retribution? What about the hundreds, nay thousands of Lebanese, Palestinians and Syrians rotting away in Israeli prisons without charge or trial for years on end?

And what of the tens of Palestinians assassinated daily in the Palestinian territories for 'alleged' crimes against Israel, which only Israel has made claim to but has never substantiated in front of an international court?

What of the Palestinian's rights to self defend or retaliate when their homes, schools, hospitals and livelihoods are destroyed, and their fathers, sons, brothers, mothers and sisters are murdered?

What has happened to the rule of law? Or has Bush also relieved Israel of adhering to international laws on occupation, war and human rights? Once in violation of these laws, and Israel IS without a doubt in violation, does that not constitute it a criminal and terrorist state? Do international laws apply to all the other governments except that of Israel? Do the US and Israel alone decide which governments are terrorist and which aren't?

You have conveniently chosen not to pose such questions nor seek their answers, though their relevance to the coverage of the current crisis is imperative. Any good piece of reporting would present the reader with all the facts and allow them to reach their own conclusions. You have consciously and unforgivably colluded to misinform your readers as to the real causes behind the current (and continuing) Middle East crisis, and you have failed to depict Israel's contribution to the disastrous events happening in the region. Your news department has shown cowardice in its decision
to not criticize, let alone condemn, Israel's disproportionate and murderous military actions in Lebanon.

How can such a show of an unbalanced and exaggerated response of force to the kidnappings be deemed as self-defense?

How should Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority respond to hundreds already kidnapped by Israel? What would be in your opinion a proportional response to those crimes? By your apparent standards, the answer to such a question would certainly be terrifying.

You have proven to be a disappointment to your readers, both to those who are unaware of the history of this conflict, and as a result of your coverage, have been led to reach the wrong conclusions, and to those readers who are aware of the history of the conflict and have been let-down by the blatant bias in your reporting and the un-explicable misinformation you have provided in favor of the Israeli government.

I will spare no effort on my part to ensure that this opinion of your news agency is circulated to friends, associates and contacts all over the globe, and to local newspapers worldwide, so that as many people as possible may be propelled to question your credibility as a news agency, and so that as many people as possible may be compelled to look elsewhere for their source of international news.

M. Ibrahim
Montreal, Canada
July 19th, 2006.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
Do the US and Israel alone



Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
echoing President Bush's sentiment



Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
Or has Bush also relieved Israel

Yup it's all Bush's fault, it's all America's fault. . .  sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:58 pm

In other words, it's the Al-Jazeera of the west.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:05 pm

Yes, it's all Israels fault. The peaceful Palestinians and Arab nations that surround Israel have done nothing since 1949 but praise and support the the tiny sliver of land that is called Israel.

Yes it is all Israels fault for allowing their planes to be Hijacked, their citizens held hostage in Entebbe, Munich, murders at Rome and Lod.

Yes, it is all Israels fault for allowing civilians to blow themselves up in Israeli buses, Market places, restaurants, and malls.

Yes, it is all Israels fault for the virulent anti-semetic press of the Arab world (no it's not anti-zionist, but anti-semetic).

Yes, it's all Israels fault for the militant groups who fire Iranian missiles inside its boarders.


How is that for fair and balanced.

[Edited 2006-07-28 15:10:18]
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scamp
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:12 pm

Touche
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
Yes, it's all Israels fault. The peaceful Palestinians and Arab nations that surround Israel have done nothing since 1949 but praise and support the the tiny sliver of land that is called Israel.

Yes it is all Israels fault for allowing their planes to be Hijacked, their citizens held hostage in Entebbe, Munich, murders at Rome and Lod.

Yes, it is all Israels fault for allowing civilians to blow themselves up in Israeli buses, Market places, restaurants, and malls.

Yes, it is all Israels fault for the virulent anti-semetic press of the Arab world (no it's not anti-zionist, but anti-semetic).

Yes, it's all Israels fault for the militant groups who fire Iranian missiles inside its boarders.

Yes well instead of this hysteria you might as well contact CNN and ask them for more BALANCED and realistic news reporting, rather than the usual unconditional support for the Terrorist "State" of Israel.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
deltagator
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
You have proven to be a disappointment to your readers

Readers? How do you read CNN? They will be laughing at you in the mailroom over that one because your letter will never reach anyone that matters.

Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
I will spare no effort on my part to ensure that this opinion of your news agency is circulated to friends, associates and contacts all over the globe, and to local newspapers worldwide, so that as many people as possible may be propelled to question your credibility as a news agency, and so that as many people as possible may be compelled to look elsewhere for their source of international news.

Boo hoo hoo...I'm taking my ball and going home. With this little gem your letter just got sent to the circular file.

Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
Palestinian's rights to self defend

Stick to one topic. You start with Lebanese and then pull Palestinians out of nowhere.

Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
Palestinians assassinated

First off...proof? source? Again, stick to one topic with your letter.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 5):
Yes well instead of this hysteria

Since when are facts "hysteria"?

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 5):
usual unconditional support for the Terrorist "State" of Israel.

Israel is not a terrorist state. It does not support terrorism, but rather defends itself against such.

Get your facts straight!
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MattRB
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 6):
Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
You have proven to be a disappointment to your readers

Readers? How do you read CNN? They will be laughing at you in the mailroom over that one because your letter will never reach anyone that matters.



Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
I have been following your coverage of the Israeli attack on Lebanon through your site

Neat what happens when you actually read the post, huh?
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EurostarVA
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 7):
Israel is not a terrorist state. It does not support terrorism, but rather defends itself against such.

The deliberate targeting of UN staff, Lebanese children, ambulance convoys, demonstrate the opposite.

Israel: Fine State Terrorism
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dtwclipper
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 9):
The deliberate targeting of UN staff,

Please give us some source for this as "deliberate"?

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 9):
Lebanese children, ambulance convoys

Oh, and the missles fired at Haifa and other cities since 1949 were all military targets!
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rjpieces
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 9):
The deliberate targeting of UN staff, Lebanese children, ambulance convoys, demonstrate the opposite.

How do you, Mr. Hussam A. Ali, know that it is deliberate? Did the Arab press tell you that?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
How do you, Mr. Hussam A. Ali, know that it is deliberate? Did the Arab press tell you that?

It wasn't only the Arab press, but also the UN Secretary General himself!
I happen to believe Kofi Anan is an honest man with no hidden agenda.

Targeting UN agents after those agents called the IDF 10 times asking them to stop bombing their immediate vicinity was clearly a deliberate attack designed to terrorize the UN staff, local civilians, and the Lebanese government.

Gosh I wish the Israelis would wake up one day from this mess and realize they have failed, and miserably to accomplish their so-called objectives in Lebanon.
The root of the problem is the occupation and humiliation of Palestinians on their own land, an ideal incubator for desperate acts.

[Edited 2006-07-28 15:46:35]
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knoxibus
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Thread starter):
that Israel's existence and well being have not come under any real threat as a result of the kidnappings, or as a result of any other event in recent history for that

So does that mean you approve of the kidnappings?

Ok, a terrorist group digs a tunnel into my country under the border, attacks a military patrol inside my border, kidnapps two soldiers and sends 5 rockets inside my border.

And this has been going on for what? God knows how many years (at least the rockets) & the kamikaze in the towns.

Seriously, I am not approving the way they handle the situation right now, but I would been also freaking fed up of enduring these guys in the place of the Israelis.
No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 12):
The root of the problem is the occupation and humiliation of Arab on their own lands,

Oh, man I would love to see the complete text were you lifted this quote!
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JJJ
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 12):
Targeting UN agents after those agents called the IDF 10 times asking them to stop bombing their immediate vicinity was clearly a deliberate attack designed to terrorize the UN staff, local civilians, and the Lebanese government.

I don't think it was deliberate, however, it would be nice that the Israeli government/military not only seriously apologises, but also conducts an investigation and severely punishes whoever fucked it up.
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 15):
I don't think it was deliberate, however, it would be nice that the Israeli government/military not only seriously apologises, but also conducts an investigation and severely punishes whoever fucked it up.

Just one question: Do you think that "nice people" are in charge at the ITF?
Believe me, they do not set a limit to "collateral" dammage since even their leaders happen to believe in a "victory at any cost".

Funny enough their occupation forces are being pushed out by the Lebanese fighters as we type...
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dtwclipper
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 16):
forces are being pushed out by the Lebanese fighters as we type...

Source please...that's news to us!

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 16):
Do you think that "nice people" are in charge at the ITF

A hell of a lot nicer then those incharge of Hezbohamasiran!
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casinterest
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:01 pm

Dear Hezbollah,
1. Returned the Kidnapped Soldiers
2. Apologize for the murderous incursion into Israel.
3. Apologize to Lebanon for putting it in harms way
4. Stop firing missles into Israel.
5. Disarm and live in peace.


Hezbollah started this fiasco, and I don't care what you think about collateral damage, they are the only ones that can stop it.

Israel has every right to eliminate the threat to their peace and soveriegnty.
More so since the people of Lebanon have allowed Hezbollah to grow and spark terrorist incidents.

If the people of Lebanon are pissed at Israel for this war, they should be twice as pissed at Hezbollah for sparking it.
Failure to show this kind of anger at Hezbollah seems to incur an underlying terrorist state in Lebanon.
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damirc
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
How do you, Mr. Hussam A. Ali, know that it is deliberate? Did the Arab press tell you that?

How do you, Reese D., know that what Israeli and US media outlets are feeding you is the truth?

Click here for a different perspective (but hey, I know you won't).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696

D.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Damirc (Reply 19):
How do you, Reese D., know that what Israeli and US media outlets are feeding you is the truth?

It's not a matter of what the media "feeds" us. It's a matter of simple logic. There is absolutely no evidence that Israel intentionally targeted UN facilities. Just because the Arab media says so does not make it so. I'd like to see it proven before anyone claims it.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
damirc
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
It's not a matter of what the media "feeds" us. It's a matter of simple logic. There is absolutely no evidence that Israel intentionally targeted UN facilities. Just because the Arab media says so does not make it so. I'd like to see it proven before anyone claims it

Watch the video. Will show you how things work.

D.
 
Dirkou
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:18 pm

Why doesn't the 4 million israelis move to Nebraska, Wyoming or any of those US States full of space and create a new country there? After all before 1949 Israel was arab land and the holocaust is not a reason to create a country - or it could be...in the middle of nowehere in the US.

And why is the US permanently backing up the country that violates more UN resolutions? Freedom? Talk me about $$$ instead...which community controls the finance world of the US? I would like to know the US attitude if Iran started to play on this war...
 
baroque
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 7):
Israel is not a terrorist state. It does not support terrorism, but rather defends itself against such.

No, it just operates hit squads in foreign jurisdictions. And they don't even always attack the intended victim. And no I won't quote sources, they are so well known and this point has been argued before.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Dirkou (Reply 22):
After all before 1949 Israel was arab land and the holocaust is not a reason to create a country - or it could be...in the middle of nowehere in the US.

Go read a history book.... come back tommorrow.
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baroque
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
It's not a matter of what the media "feeds" us. It's a matter of simple logic. There is absolutely no evidence that Israel intentionally targeted UN facilities. Just because the Arab media says so does not make it so. I'd like to see it proven before anyone claims it.

This argument about deliberate is totally bizarre. The post was receiving fire for some hours and its complaints were relayed to the IDF who appear to have acknowledged them. After a considerable period of attack, a large aerial bomb was dropped on a clearly marked post. This does not appear to be in dispute.

So what you are saying is that if you get hours of attack (apparently artillery) followed by a bomb, it is chance and the IDF has no real idea of what it is doing. OK have it your own way.

Why not just admit it was a deliberate and mistaken attack? Or then again, was it not mistaken because it certainly was deliberate.
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
I'd like to see it proven before anyone claims it.

An unequivocal proof would require the full cooperation of Israel and those people who ordered the specific attack, as well as their agents in the sky.

Will this ever happen? Never. The people over there at ITF will tell you this is war and in such circumstances that would be normal, or mention immunity, or whatever sick excuses they cowardly hide behind. Evil in its true sense.

What do we expect from the region's nuclear-armed terror state?
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baroque
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:57 pm

I am not sure I should confess, but I don't get CNN here. Last week I did comment that the Lehrer Newshour seemed much better than other US sources but it lacked breadth. So can I take a bit of this thread to comment on the excellent breadth in one segment in that program on 27 Jul 2006 (had to check which day it was, as we have just clicked over to 29 Jul here).
SOURCE:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/july-dec06/prisms_07-27.html

The participants in
"A spectrum of prisms"

were

"JEFFREY BROWN: And we look at those different prisms of reporting and viewing now with Jamal Dajani, the director of Middle East programming at Link TV.

Donatella Lorch, a former foreign correspondent for the New York Times and NBC News.

Lawrence Pintak, director of the TV journalism program at the American University in Cairo. He's a former Middle East correspondent for CBS. His recent book is "Reflections in a Bloodshot Lens: America, Islam and the War of Ideas."

And Shibley Telhami, the Anwar Sadat professor for peace and development at the University of Maryland."

It is worth reading the whole post but as a partial explanation of the vast gulf that we have seen on this and similar posts most of the concluding statement read:

"LAWRENCE PINTAK: You cannot overemphasize the impact that images have. American television is sanitized. We don't see the real blood and gore of war.
Now, it's a cultural thing, sure, but you turn on the television in the Arab world, you are seeing the disembowelled babies, you are seeing the burned children, you are seeing the pieces of flesh in the streets. And that has a visceral impact.
Americans, we talk about this plethora of prisms now in the Arab world with this media revolution, but Americans in many ways still live in an information ghetto, because we are not seeing the images coming out of the Arab world.
Arabs, if I stood at home in Cairo, I have 300-odd stations. I can watch Al-Jazeera. I can watch Al-Arabiya. I can watch Al-Manar. I can watch CNN, and the BBC, and FOX News, and MSNBC. So an Arab can surf across the spectrum. Americans can't.
Jamal's wonderful project is a drop in the budget, as I'm sure he'll agree, 100,000 people seeing it on the Web a month, something like that. It's a step in the right direction. But in general, Americans don't see what Arabs see. And so we say, "Why do they hate us? Why don't they like what we're doing?" Because we're not seeing the impact of what we're doing."

We are seeing different worlds.

It is not surprising if we come to different views.

[Edited 2006-07-28 17:05:16]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:13 am

1) Both Hezbollah and Hamas are organisations which follow a fascistoid ideology, just not based on race as the European fascists of the 20th century, but on membership to a religious believ, which demands total obedience to the leadership, no questions asked. Both organisations use money given to them by rich sponsors, who have an agenda of theuir own, to operate social services, but make sure that the regular government will not interfere in this monopoly, similar as the Nazis built up their "Winterhilfswerk" welfare organisation during the depression in the late 1920s early 1930s to gain the support of the poor.

2) Both Hezbollah and Hamas operate like a state within a state in their respective regions.
Hezbollah blackmails the Lebanese government by threatening to return to civil war if they are being forced to disarm themselves. This forced the Lebanese government and the population, which was afraid of having the civil war back, to appease Hezbollah.
In this climate Hezbollah continued, same as Hamas, a policy of pin pricks against Israel, like random launching of rockets or border attacks, and whenever there were serious attempts at peace talks, you could be sure that some idiot would blow up a bomb, launch a few rockets or kidnapp someone to torpedo them.
Hezbollah is not a small guerilla organisation, but a military force of brigade size with a battalion size core of professionals, who also operate the heavy weapons and up to 6000 reservists, who can be reactivated on short notice.
Weapons range from light infantry weapons like AK-47s and RPGs through APCs to truck launched, radar controlled antiship missiles.
Their rocket equipment ranges from Katyusha rockets, length about 3 meters, diameter 122 mm, warhead size of 30 kgs and a range of up to 20 km (Normally in other armies these unguided and very inaccurate missiles are being used as area weapons and are being fired from "Stalin Organ" type launchers agains area targets, e.g. 50 rockets covering an area of 100 x 100 meters, but Hezbollah uses them one by one. These rockets can only be roughly aimed at a townsize target, where they will actually fall is by coincidence, definitely not a weapon, which will hit what it is aimed at) up to short range ballistic rockets with the range and warhead size of a late type Honest John, which needs a heavy truck for transport.



3) Both organisations openly break the rules of war, e.g. by hiding their weapons and fighting positions in populated area, they are using civilian vehicles and occasionally in the past ambulances to transport troops an weapons.
IMO I actually think that both organisations using their own populations as shields, which is totally against the rules of war.
This is done due to two reasons:
a)It puts the Israelis in a dilema: If they want to retaliate, they necessarily have to attack civilians, forcing them to break the rules of war as well.
b) Any civilian killed by the Israelis is another propaganda victory for the organisations and brings them new recruits.

There you'll see how much the Hamas and Hezbolla care about the Lebanese and Palaestinian populations.

4) Both Hamas and Hezbollah are not responsible to the Lebanese and Palaestinian people. They are only responsible to themselves and maybe their sponsors.
Instead of participating in peace talks with reasonable demands, they push for an illusory maximum (Destruction of Israel), and like all terrorist organisations they justify their demands by saying that all their "martyrs" would have died in vain if they would make concessions short of the maximum demands. This was also true for the ETA and the IRA.

Israel in the past had their fascists as well, but after the assessination of Shamir by a rightwing extremist, had cracked down on the rightwings extremists. Most Israelis also realise that the settlements will have to be handed back.


Another topic:

The Palaestinians.
IMO it is high time that the Palaestinians will have their own state, which should be of a size and geographic continuity to allow it to survive economically. I'll leave the subject of Jerusalem for later.

Now concerning the Palaestinians living in other Middle East countries:
Do you Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians etc. really believe that all of those who came to your countries as refugees or their descendands will return to Palaestine?
Why do you artificially keep them apart from your own population, e.g. in Lebanon by refusing them to work in about 70 professions and not granting them citizenship?
Why don't you integrate them into your own populations?
My own family came originally from the former German province of East Prussia, which was lost to Germany as a result of WW2 during the violent ethnic cleansing following the war (before the Germas did it exactly the other way round. Frankly, I'm an aircraft mechanic, not a farmer. I have no use for my ancestral family lands, as does the rest of our family. The only one who wanted the land back was my late grandfather. The rest of us have built lives in other places, as have millions of displaced persons after WW2. IMO, most of those of Palaestinian ancestry, who have been born abroad, let it be in other Middle Eastern countries, or e.g. in Europe, will stay there, provided they get integrated and will contribute to the local culture. Do you really think a third or fourth generation Palaestinian, who has grown up e.g. in Berlin and is in a good social position, will want to move to a country he only knows from tales of his grandfather?
Frankly, I would want to see the land some day, but I can not imagine to move to a Masurian village.

The situation of the Hezbollah in Lebanon reminds me of a Neo-Nazi group in e.g. the German states of Brandenburg or Saxony, which fights it's privbate war against Poland and the Czech Republic, being paid by foreign sponsors. The only difference is that if this would happen here the German Army and police would move in really fast and throw all of them into jail and this with full cooperation of the Polish and Czech governments.

Why did e.g. the Lebanese defense minister verbally cheer and support Hezbollah in a Spiegel interview last week?
I'm sure that if the Lebanese government would have asked the international community for help in disarming Hezbollah, they would have received all support they ever wanted.
Why did the Lebanese government only accept an unarmed UN Blue Helmet observer force, instead of a solid UN peacekeeping force with a robust mandate to help to restore Lebanese souvereignity?

Don't come up with the Sheeba Farms. There is a big controversy among specialist in international law if they actually belong to Lebanon (as the Lebanese goverment and Hezbollah claim) or if they belong to Syria (as Israel claims).


Now to Jerusalem:
I don't think that East Jerusalem should be a part of Israel, but through it's importance for three major religions I think that it should also not be part of the Palaestine territories. I think East Jerusalem should go under international administration, preferably by people, who have no religious interest in the city.

I think there should be an effective international force be based in Lebanon with three purposes:

1) forming a buffer between Israel and the Lebanon, preventing attacks, like the kidnapping or rocket launches to happen again. Israel's Army withdraws behind their own border. Whatever they do on their side of the fence doesn't matter as long as they don't cross the border.

2) controlling Lebanon's borders to Syria and the sea coast to prevent illegal shipments of arms from entering the country.

3) Disarmament, if necessary by force of Hezbollah and other private armies.

After a transitional period of several years this might actually help to reestablish the souvereignity of the Lebanon.

Next steps would be integrating the Palaestinian "refugees" ("" because most of them are now living in the Lebanon or other countries since generations) and in the long run establishing economic ties with Israel, which will invariably be followed with personal ties after a while (mixed marriages, friendships).
The same would apply to the Palaestinian territories.
Israel will have to make further concessions in the form of land and maybe also in it's citizenship laws, but Israel will continue to exist.

I will not see it, but I hope that within the next 100 years there'll be a united country made up out of Lebanon, Israel and the Palaestinian territories, Economically this would make sense, but obviously it would put both an end to the dreams of a greater Syria, still dreamed by many members of the Syrian government and dreams of religious dominance dreamt by many Islamist radical.


Jan

[Edited 2006-07-28 17:14:32]
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JJJ
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 18):
If the people of Lebanon are pissed at Israel for this war, they should be twice as pissed at Hezbollah for sparking it.
Failure to show this kind of anger at Hezbollah seems to incur an underlying terrorist state in Lebanon

'This kind of anger' meant 15 years of (mostly religious) civil war (1975-1990), and then 15 years of Israeli and Syrian occupation.

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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
Both organisations use money given to them by rich sponsors

I respect your opinion mate, but please rest assured HAMAS does not use the limited money it gets from Syria to sustain its popularity through propaganda or anything of the sort. HAMAS has a true popular backing because of its grassroots presence in education, health, etc.

Contrary to what CNN and other jewish-controlled media would have us believe, Hamas has not received a dime from Iran. This allegation is Israel's tactic to discredit / smear and villify Hamas as an Islamic fascit/terror/etc. organization, while the truth is that its primary raison d'etre is to free Palestinian lands from Israeli colonialism.

[Edited 2006-07-28 17:32:04]
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 29):
You can't ask a recovering man to suddenly start running a marathon.

Sure I can, if it is the only way to keep his pitbull from attacking my family.
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JJJ
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 31):
Sure I can, if it is the only way to keep his pitbull from attacking my family.

Israel occupied south Lebanon for many years and was totally unable to disarm Hezbollah, what makes you think the puny Lebanese military would fare better in much less time?

This kind of short-sighted acting is what will make the ME conflict last for at least 50 more years.
 
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 8):
Neat what happens when you actually read the post, huh?

Touche but he is also all over the map. He mentions the site but then says nothing about reading until much later. He fusses about Lebanon and then pulls Palestine out of left field. Fact remains, his letter will be met with deaf ears at CNN.
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 28):
Do you really think a third or fourth generation Palaestinian, who has grown up e.g. in Berlin and is in a good social position, will want to move to a country he only knows from tales of his grandfather?

The answer is yes, because Palestinians are determined to get back their land which was taken by force. Today 500,000 Lebanese were displaced by force. In 1948, 750,000 Palestinians were driven off by Jewish terror organziations like Irgun, Hagana, etc. My own parents and grandparents were victim of this ethnic cleansing. I am not using "ethnic cleansing" term to dramatize or villify the Israelis, but consider this. Our village Deir El-Qassi which is very close to the Lebanese border was destroyed by Jewish artillery, following the fleeing of its population after news broke out of massacres not far away. A new Israeli settlement was built on its ruins and its new inhabitants who are Yemeni jewish immigrants renamed it Kosh (this happened after 1948). If this doesn't constitute ethnic cleansing then what does? Here are some photos of some surviving stone buildings at Dayr Al-Qasi:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Dayr-al-Qasi/Picture5568.html


Here's another map of the Galilee in 1948 (Notice the vast majority of towns had Arab names)
http://www.mideastweb.org/northernisraelmap1949.htm

You can imagine, the spreading of this information on the Net makes Israelis VERY uncomfortable as it calls into question the very legitimacy of the Jewish state. Israel was founded on a gun. Anyone questioning this should review history especially 1945-1948.

I dont want to drag this conversation to infinity, but Palestinians regard their land as holy. Jerusalem defines the Palestinian identity. I agree with you that a very small percentage will want to remain in their host countries, particularly but not exclusively the well-off Palestinians. But this does not solve or address the notion that Palestinians are rigidly tied to their land, olive trees, orange groves, and Jerusalem!

I don't know why but successibe Israeli regimes since 1948 seem to think
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 32):
Israel occupied south Lebanon for many years and was totally unable to disarm Hezbollah, what makes you think the puny Lebanese military would fare better in much less time?


Im'm not sure they would, but it would be proof Lebanon was truly a terrorist state like syria and Iran
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 30):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
Both organisations use money given to them by rich sponsors

I respect your opinion mate, but please rest assured HAMAS does not use the limited money it gets from Syria to sustain its popularity through propaganda or anything of the sort. HAMAS has a true popular backing because of its grassroots presence in education, health, etc.

Contrary to what CNN and other jewish-controlled media would have us believe, Hamas has not received a dime from Iran. This allegation is Israel's tactic to discredit / smear and villify Hamas as an Islamic fascit/terror/etc. organization, while the truth is that its primary raison d'etre is to free Palestinian lands from Israeli colonialism.

And what about the money given to them by rich religious @rseholes from saudi Arabia who want to buy their way into heaven by giving big donatios? AFAIK, this is one of the main sources of HAmas revenue.

Hamas is a religious fascist organisation. It buys it's support by providing social services which normally would be the responsibility of the government, which due to incompetence or corruption it is not able to provide.
The Nazis did the same in the early 1930s.

And concerning your quotes above I assume that you at least sympathise with fascist ideas.

Jan
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 35):
Im'm not sure they would, but it would be proof Lebanon was truly a terrorist state like syria and Iran

You are clearly quite misinformed about what's been going on in Lebanon in the last 50 years.

The following information is quite brief and way far from ideal, but pretty balanced and can give you an rough idea about the situation down in Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_crisis_of_1958
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_civil_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Army
 
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casinterest
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 37):
The following information is quite brief and way far from ideal, but pretty balanced and can give you an rough idea about the situation down in Lebanon.

You can read about civil war, but in the end... Hezbollah is ruling the day and syria seems to be in charge......

If the Lebanese can't keep their house in order and their citizens in charge, they should expect to get invaded when an act of war is launched from their city.
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baroque
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 36):
And concerning your quotes above I assume that you at least sympathise with fascist ideas.

Islamofascist is an easy term to use, but a bit more difficult to justify. Hamas, just in case you have forgotten, was not established so much by those nice Arabian peninsula gentlemen who sell you oil to propel your airplanes, but by Israel.

It has a strong religious base, and as is common in Islam, a high proportion of its activities are devoted to social welfare and to what the west would call charitable functions. It has an armed wing, and that has conducted activities regarded as terrorist by Israel and the west. Their own view is seldom sought, but their own name tells you that they think they are a resistance movement.

They are nationalist, and anti-communist, but after that I don't see a relationship to the fascism of the 30s and 40s.

If I may direct you to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism

"Islamofascism is a neologism and political epithet used to compare the ideological or operational characteristics of certain modern Islamist movements with European fascist movements of the early 20th century, neofascist movements, or totalitarianism. Organizations that have been labeled Islamofascist include Al-Qaeda, the current Iranian government,[1] the Taliban, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hezbollah. None label themselves fascist, however, and critics of the term argue that associating the religion of Islam with fascism is both offensive and historically inaccurate."

The nearest it gets is perhaps
"Islamists do not advocate corporatism, an important component of "classic" fascist governments in Italy and Germany. However, the Islamist idea of Ummah has been compared to the German fascist idea of Volksgemeinschaft"

In general, I think you will find that you are being highly offensive to Muslims.
 
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
In general, I think you will find that you are being highly offensive to Muslims.

Thanks for making that point.
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
In other words, it's the Al-Jazeera of the west.

I am tempted to say so after seing this movie/documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696
rolf
 
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:03 am

Well, I think many Muslims I know would find it more insulting to be thrown into the same class as Hamas and Hezbollah.
These groups are using Islam for their own political agenda, which is not shared by many Muslims.
They demand that they define who is a true Muslim and who not. Anybody who dooesn't share their ideology will be called a traitor, same as the German Nazis called anybody who didn't want to fight for Fuehrer, Reich and the Nazi party a traitor.
They also demand that ALL Muslims worldwide should adopt a lifestyle of their definition, based on their way of life.

P.S. I have in the past been married to a Muslim woman from Sierra Leone, West Africa.

Jan
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baroque
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:35 am

It is not particularly useful and can be positively obfuscating to confuse Islamic extremism with Fascism.

It is indeed the case that the extremist movements exhibit many of the tendencies that you mention in this more reasoned post. Exclusivism can be viewed as a major fault, but it would only be fair to mention that this trait is not confined to extremist Islam.

I still think you are misguided to liken their ethos and their methods to those of the Nazis.

There are very good reasons not to like extremist versions of Islam just as there are excellent reasons not to like extremist versions of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, sorry if I missed any. Calling them names is not, however, a good way to understanding what they are on about. If you don't begin to do that, you are not going to have much success trying to stop their spread.

Apart from anything else, it is all too easy for the epithets to slide off those in the extremist movements on to those who do not hold extreme views. This is the way to more perdition and we have quite enough of that already.

[Edited 2006-07-28 19:36:01]
 
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):
These groups are using Islam for their own political agenda, which is not shared by many Muslims.

Which begs the question Jan . . . why do the Muslims put up with or tolerate the extremists? Why aren't more of these Extremist Factions dealt with by the Muslim community on a grand scale . . . I'm not talking about hanging them and dragging the bodies through the streets . . . I'm talking about turning them over to the authorities? Why doesn't this happen? Why is a group like the Hezbollah, feigning existence as a Political Party (that is so much utter BS I can't fathom it), allowed to rise to such a level that they obtain seats in the Lebanese Government and virtually control (with their OWN army) a significant portion of southern Lebanon? Why are groups like the Hamas elected to the government in Palestine?

I simply can't grasp the utter lunacy of this type of activity.

I hear the excuse - and that's exactly what it is, a lame, lousy excuse - that various sects of the Muslim faith do no get along with each other. I submit that's nonsense. As I mentioned in another thread, people of all religions in the US tend to get along - we may not like each other but we get along for the sake of the country.

Is it so difficult a concept that it can't be understood by our Muslim brothers?
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 41):
Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 2):
In other words, it's the Al-Jazeera of the west.

I am tempted to say so after seing this movie/documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...20696

Well that video ranks right up there with Loose Change. I watched 5 minutes of it and turned it off. It just portrays the terrorists as a "resistance movement", and the civilians that support them as helpless under the "oppresive" Israelis. Give me a freaking break. If those numfucks would just leave Israel alone none of this would ever have happened.
 
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
Which begs the question Jan . . . why do the Muslims put up with or tolerate the extremists? Why aren't more of these Extremist Factions dealt with by the Muslim community on a grand scale . . . I'm not talking about hanging them and dragging the bodies through the streets . . . I'm talking about turning them over to the authorities? Why doesn't this happen? Why is a group like the Hezbollah, feigning existence as a Political Party (that is so much utter BS I can't fathom it), allowed to rise to such a level that they obtain seats in the Lebanese Government and virtually control (with their OWN army) a significant portion of southern Lebanon? Why are groups like the Hamas elected to the government in Palestine?

Maybe the same reason why back in the 1940s the mainstream Israelis were not able to control their own extremists (the Irgun and the Stern Gang), out of fear to split the community and causing internal rifts, which might be exploited by the external opponent. This enabled both the Irgun and the Stern Gang to commit acts of terrorism and war crimes. Only when they directly challenged the mainstream government of Ben Gurion and started, like Hezbollah or Hamas, to set up their own parallel armies did Ben gurion step in and use the Haganah, the precedessor of today's IDF, to stop them in a series of violent fire fights.

Many people might voice their opinion in private, but will not voice it towards outsiders, because they are afraid of splitting the community. Also terrorist organisations are not being known as proponents of free speech. In the Basque country and northern Ireland e.g, critics of the ETA and the IRA were often branded as "traitors" and killed. Terrorist organisations often have the rationale that only fighters should be allowed to offer critic, and a true figther would of course join their cause, else he'd be a traitor. A non-combatant who critizeses them is considered to be a coward, who just doesn't want to fight.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
There are very good reasons not to like extremist versions of Islam just as there are excellent reasons not to like extremist versions of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, sorry if I missed any. Calling them names is not, however, a good way to understanding what they are on about. If you don't begin to do that, you are not going to have much success trying to stop their spread.

On the contrary:

To me there exist many similarities, especially in artificially creating a "s versus them"mentality.
There also similarities in how the various political and religious extremist groups use propaganda. If I hear e.g. propaganda published by Hezbollah, radical Jewish settlers or American fundamentalist Christians, to me it sounds as if I have heard it all before, in the "Deutsche Wochenschau" of the 1930s and 1940s.

And don't be mistaken by the early Nazi programmes of disowning of private property (often used especially by Americans to show that Nazism is a branch of socialism). This was only done as propaganda bait to capture the great unwashed and unemployed masses, who during the 1920s saw the majority of the population become empoverished, while a few industrialists became stinking rich. As soon as the Nazis had reached a certain amount of power, these points got quitly dropped and the revolutionary wing of the Nazi party, the Stormtroopers, executed. The Nazi party was always not a worker's party, but a party of the "petit bourgois", which also got heavily financed by big capital (like the newspaper tycoon Hugenberg, the steel magnates Thyssen and Krupp), who then received the return on their investment by having trade unions crushed and receiving heavy arms orders.

Jan
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damirc
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:05 pm

Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 45):
Well that video ranks right up there with Loose Change. I watched 5 minutes of it and turned it off. It just portrays the terrorists as a "resistance movement", and the civilians that support them as helpless under the "oppresive" Israelis. Give me a freaking break. If those numfucks would just leave Israel alone none of this would ever have happened

You see - that is exactly why you will never understand why terrorist attacks happen, why they bomb you. But it only would take an hour to watch.

I guess you prefer not to have your fantasy shattered.

D.
 
baroque
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):

Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
There are very good reasons not to like extremist versions of Islam just as there are excellent reasons not to like extremist versions of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, sorry if I missed any. Calling them names is not, however, a good way to understanding what they are on about. If you don't begin to do that, you are not going to have much success trying to stop their spread.

On the contrary:

To me there exist many similarities, especially in artificially creating a "s versus them"mentality.
There also similarities in how the various political and religious extremist groups use propaganda. If I hear e.g. propaganda published by Hezbollah, radical Jewish settlers or American fundamentalist Christians, to me it sounds as if I have heard it all before, in the "Deutsche Wochenschau" of the 1930s and 1940s.

Which contrary would that be? AFI can see, you more or less repeated what I said. I still have a contrary in that calling the Islamic extremists fascist is first wrong, and secondly misleading. It is just bad analysis.

Your last para shows one difference, there is no power base for Hamas or Hez in industrialists, there is no union movement to oppose. Hamas and Hez really are movements based out of the poorer parts of their society.

I don't know what your motive is in attaching the label fascist to them, but it is not useful IF you are trying to work out what they are on about.

If you just want to condemn them and not try to understand what forces have produced them, strip away that label for a start. I think you will agree that Hitler did not arrive without a history and a setting. The same applies to Hamas and Hez, and they have different origins and are quite different organizations. But keep pushing and you might even achieve the near impossible, cause them to unite.
 
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RE: Letter To CNN....re: Middle East Conflict

Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:31 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 5):
Yes well instead of this hysteria you might as well contact CNN and ask them for more BALANCED and realistic news reporting, rather than the usual unconditional support for the Terrorist "State" of Israel.



Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 9):
The deliberate targeting of UN staff, Lebanese children, ambulance convoys, demonstrate the opposite.

Israel: Fine State Terrorism



Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 30):
Contrary to what CNN and other jewish-controlled media would have us believe

you know you're not going to achieve anything by believing any of this. First off - calling CNN a jewish-controlled media outlet is pretty stupid. I promise you that CNN has no religious backing of any sort. Past that - you nor anyone else is going to achieve anything by calling Israel a terrorist state and attempting to prove it. Nor is anyone arguing against you, witch just as much stupidity, going to achieve anything by going off about how amazing Israel is and how it is their right to do what they're doing. All of this is a much more complex political game involving much more than just Hezbollah and Israel. But just to make a point - way more than two Israeli soldiers have died trying to 'get back' the original two.

There's some very heated opinions in this post. And a few of us are aggrivating each other with some very extreme views (on both sides)... which is sort of like what keeps happening in the middle east. Everyone is full of shit pretty much. No one will win by being extreme. That ends in things like genocide, and that hasn't worked out too well for anybody.

So think twice before you blindly pledge your allegiance to whatever side. I believe this will end when both (or multiple) sides are smart enough to meet in the middle. It hasn't happened in the past hundred years, and i think it might be awhile before it actually happens in the middle east. If people could forget the fact that they have to defend "their people" at whatever cost, and remember that after all, we are all just people... maybe this will all end. We are all "our people" and we should be defending ourselves. But that is a very romantically idealistic view. Easier said than done.

'902
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