Falcon84
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My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:04 pm

I agree with this guy 100%, and if the right had more people like them, the GOP wouldn't be pushing so far to the right.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a...95809990004?ncid=NWS00010000000001

I think I'll get this guy's book and read it.

Remember, to those who disagree with this Reverend: Jesus wasn't a Republican, and he wasn't a Conservative. He was a Liberal.

[Edited 2006-07-30 05:06:29]
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
planespotting
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

Remember, to those who disagree with this Reverend: Jesus wasn't a Republican, and he wasn't a Conservative. He was a Liberal.


From the Colbert Report:

Mentioning Jesus in a speech: Small Government
Practicing what Jesus preached: Big Government


[Edited 2006-07-30 05:35:47]
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
SFOMEX
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:20 pm

He is not a conservative. As many others, he is a liberal who happens to be a Christian minister. There is plenty of liberal Christian denominations (all losing members by the thousands, but that's for another thread) and even in Conservative churches you will find liberals too. The US Catholic Church is a good example. I know a good number of nuns, priests and brothers who are as liberal as they come.

"And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary? After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up"

I didn't know that patriotism was a conservative value. He should be ashamed for denying this simple and harmless request.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
He was a Liberal.

LOL... and I thought you were serious! It's kind of lame, but it's still a nice try of a joke.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Falcon84
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 2):
I didn't know that patriotism was a conservative value. He should be ashamed for denying this simple and harmless request.

No, he shouldn't be ashamed of it, because he is right. It's like it says in a bumper sticker I just purchased: "Fascism will come to America wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross". And that's what he's worried about.

And patriotism is NOT a conservative value, but if you deny that right-wing Christians, and other far to the right in the GOP haven't tried to make it a conservative value, you're nuts.

Christianity doesn't-or shouldn't-exist to glorify the state, or the military, or any political party. It's existence should glorify God Almighty and his son, Jesus Christ.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 2):
LOL... and I thought you were serious! It's kind of lame, but it's still a nice try of a joke.

I am serious. Jesus was a liberal. Liberal, by it's very definition, is one who challenges the authority of the day, and questions the way things are. Read the Bible, the New Testament. Jesus did that.

Had he been a conservative, he'd have joined the Jewish Scribes, not challenged them. He challenged the status quo. That's the very essence of "liberal".
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SFOMEX
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
It's like it says in a bumper sticker I just purchased: "Fascism will come to America wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross". And that's what he's worried about.

Almost every Catholic church I know has an American flag and a Vatican flag in the altar or sanctuary. Please, explain to me how this would help Fascism to dominate the country!

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Christianity doesn't-or shouldn't-exist to glorify the state, or the military, or any political party. It's existence should glorify God Almighty and his son, Jesus Christ.

Agreed. Nonetheless, a simple flag in the altar doesn't glorify the state. It only reminds us that we are called to be good Christians and good citizens. That liberal minister and you are misreading this simple act of love to your country.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Jesus was a liberal. Liberal, by it's very definition, is one who challenges the authority of the day, and questions the way things are. Read the Bible, the New Testament. Jesus did that.

Very true, but you know very well that the word "liberal" means a lot more nowadays. I doubt that you would call liberal to someone who teaches that divorce is wrong and a sin. That person would be considered a conservative.

In a more deep approach to the topic, Jesus wasn't against the status quo for the sake of it. He was it because some aspects of it were against the plans of His Father for humankind, namely our salvation. Therefore, Jesus is not a role model of rebellion or dissent. He is the perfect testimony of somebody looking for the truth and holiness, even if what is holy and truthful is not popular! (Does abortion ring a bell?)
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Falcon84
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 4):
Almost every Catholic church I know has an American flag and a Vatican flag in the altar or sanctuary. Please, explain to me how this would help Fascism to dominate the country!

Because the flag, tied with the cross, would give fascism a so-called moral ground on which to stand. Remember, the Nazi's did the same thing. In my "The World At War" video series, it shows a Christmas tree, topped by an iron swastika, with people singing Christmas carols.

Much of nazism was based on religious dogma-that dogma being geared toward hatred of the Jews-the "Christ Killers", as many were called by the German people back then. And that religious dogma was closly wrapped in the new German flag, bearing the swastika.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 4):
Very true, but you know very well that the word "liberal" means a lot more nowadays.

It means a lot more only to those on the right who have twisted and perverted it's real meaning. That's the only ones that have changed the context of the word.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 4):
In a more deep approach to the topic, Jesus wasn't against the status quo for the sake of it

Neither are most liberals in this day and age. What's your point?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
SFOMEX
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Because the flag, tied with the cross, would give fascism a so-called moral ground on which to stand

Frankly, I ain't buying it. The flag in the altar has been here for a long time and Fascism is nowhere to be found. Sorry Falcon, but you are defending a stupid decision. That liberal pastor of the article should be ashamed of himself.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
It means a lot more only to those on the right who have twisted and perverted it's real meaning.

LOL... cry me a river! Liberals are the only ones to be blamed for the discredit of the name. It's their fault that liberal has become a four letters word.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
What's your point?

My point is that calling liberal to Jesus is far-stretched.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Falcon84
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
My point is that calling liberal to Jesus is far-stretched.

Then you don't know the true meaning of what "liberal" is. It irks Republicans and born-agains when someone rightfully identifies Jesus as a liberal; when Abraham Lincoln is rightfully identified as a liberal; when the founding fathers are identified as liberals.

Conservatives don't question the status quo, or fight for changing the status quo, SFOMEX. Jesus did; the founding fathers did. Had the former not challenged the status quo, there'd be no Christian churches; had the founding fathers not challenged the status quo, we'd all still be singing "God Save The Queen".
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:19 pm

Interesting how the definition of "liberal" has changed over the years to the point where, not so very long ago, President George W. Bush would have been labeled as a liberal. Here's why I make such a seemingly "off the wall" statement:

Back in 1968, a presidential election year in the U.S., Hubert H. Humphrey was the nominee of the Democrat Party to run against Richard M. Nixon for the office of President of the U.S. Humphrey (from my home state of Minnesota) was labeled universally as a liberal. On the one hand, he was an advocate of what was then (as now) known as "big government" and the "big spending" that goes with it; on the other hand, he was unashamedly pro-life at all levels, from conception to death by natural causes.

Since George W. Bush has become in actuality the biggest spender by far in the history of U.S. Presidents as well as a de facto proponent of bigger government, and is, also like Humphrey, pro-life... it follows that, if Humphrey was indeed a liberal, then "W" is also very much a liberal ...at least by the definition of the term as it stood in 1968 in the U.S.
 
dl021
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:01 pm

I actually think that this guy is correct. Religion should not enter politics. It never ends well. A chaplain for the government workers is one thing.....the government workers taking orders from the priests puts us in Iran.

The flag belongs outside the church, not in the sanctuary. That's God's place.

The Church doesn't need to push for victory...it needs to push for the safety of it's congregation and the safe return of it's flock that has gone for soldiers.

The parishioners don't need to be encouraged by their church to vote a certain way, they should be taught what the church tenets are and make up their own mind which candidate represents them the best, and holds their values.

Religion should limit it's involvement in politics to chaplaincy and advice on request.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
IceTitan447
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Remember, to those who disagree with this Reverend: Jesus wasn't a Republican, and he wasn't a Conservative. He was a Liberal.

Good point, but I wouldn't compare Jesus to the liberals of today. Example, Jesus loved the world, he didn't hate it. Jesus didn't go against EVERYTHING just to do it, Jesus wasn't spineless, and Jesus wasn't Godless. Big difference.
 
dl021
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:42 pm

I also don't think Jesus was comparable to liberals or conservatives of today. He seems to have been his own man, and displayed traits of both.

I'd bet that Jesus would be fairly pissed off if he returned right this second.....

just a guess.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Duff44
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I also don't think Jesus was comparable to liberals or conservatives of today. He seems to have been his own man, and displayed traits of both.

 checkmark 

Which is why both liberals and conservatives are so despised and things are so divided today.... there isn't any middle ground. The Theopublicans and Communicrats are so wrapped up in being "opposite the other guy" and infilicting their will on anyone that they've forgotten what middle ground is.
I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
 
AirCop
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:28 pm

The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? (This paragraph is from the New York Times article 7/30/06)

I agreed with the Reverend, the place of worship should not be a poltical headquarters for either side. Didn't the GOP get into some hotwater for requesting church membership lists in 2004?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 4):
Almost every Catholic church I know has an American flag and a Vatican flag in the altar or sanctuary

Must be going blind, haven't noticed an American flag in either the altar or sancturary of our catholic church, will check in a few hours.
 
Matt D
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:33 pm

The Reublicans can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.
The Democrats can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Anyone else want to join me and the Libertarians?
 
OlegShv
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Religion should not enter politics. It never ends well. A chaplain for the government workers is one thing.....the government workers taking orders from the priests puts us in Iran.



Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
The flag belongs outside the church, not in the sanctuary. That's God's place.



Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Religion should limit it's involvement in politics to chaplaincy and advice on request.

 checkmark  Agreed 100%!
 
IceTitan447
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I'd bet that Jesus would be fairly pissed off if he returned right this second.....

I have a feeling he sees everything going on right now.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services?

Jesus would give them a chance to change, and if no change then they would be tossed out.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 14):
Anyone else want to join me and the Libertarians?

no
 
ltbewr
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:20 am

If you look in your New Testiment bible, you will see a passage allegedly said by Jesus Christ in response to a question, that you 'Render to God that is to God and Render to Ceaser that is to Ceaser'.
To me the Rev. Boyd is saying that Faith/church and Government must be carefully separate. Faith organiztions must be neutral and cannot take sides as to political parties or government, although they can preach believes (like on abortion, gay marriage) to it's members for them to influence government policy, but within the system. When faith is the de facto government, you create a corrupt society and do horrible things against non-belivers. Look at what happened to the Roman Catholic Church. The Reformation and breakup of the RC Church was due to their corruption and control of governance of Europe. In the name of faith, you had the Crusades against Islam and the Inquisition in Spain that chased out Islam and Jews from there. They also tortured and killed people of reason. I am afraid we are getting too close to that today as shown by our attitudes toward the Islamic world.
You do have people of strong faith - Christian, Jewish, Islamic and others, that believe that government, and not faith organizations, have an obligation to help the social welfare of the poor, the disabled, and the weakest in our society, but not to control government
 
catholic2006
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:53 am

Even though I may be Christian and Republican (not hard core), I cannot say that I totally disagree with Rev. Boyd.

I think it's somewhat childish for someone to leave a church because of political reasons. I do not feel that the church is a political party, but a place to worship God and get closer to God with other Christians that can help and encourage you on that journey.

God will not punish you in hell because you have a certain political view, so why would treat someone else like they are leading you away from the path of righteousness? Even if the priest at my church started saying that we don't need Jesus, I would not change churches just because of that because I feel that God has given me and everyone the tools to decide for themselves what they need to do to get to Him. Just because someone is a priest doesn't mean he can make my mind go one way. That is my decision.

If I were to think like that, I would not be friends with the fabulous young ladies that I am friends with. Most of them do not attend church regularly and some are atheists, one a satanist, but not devout (because she doesn't believe in organized religion). Mostly all of them are pro-choice (only one is pro-abortion), and there are even maybe 1 or 2 that are not for gay marriage, but do openly rebuke the discrimination and harrassment towards homosexuals. They love me, I love them, we bond. There should be that same family connection in churches, although large churches lack that these days.

Also, if I were that picky about things I believe, I would not be a Catholic (even though over the past few months, I have been labeling myself as a Chrisitian, and I really wish I could change my username, haha) because some aspects of my life conflict with the catechism and with Christianity, but I'm not perfect, and I still go to confession to rid myself of the guilt and then try not to do it again, but omg, it's hard. I still believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior that God sent into the world to achieve salvation for those who will accept it and the Holy Spirit inspires my heart to accept it, so therefore I am still a Christian. I do agree with most of the teachings of the Catholic church and the dogmas, but there are many things that I don't believe (scapular medals, indulgences, only Catholics can partake of the Eucharist, things like that). Trust me, I have no intentions of leaving the Catholic church even though I can worship in any Christian church, I will not remove myself from the Catholic denomination (that is all it is to me, a denomination) because of simple little rules.

Why can't they have a rally against homosexuality and abortion on their own? Why can't they show their support for the military on their own? I know that I personally pray often for an end to abortion or a change in the hearts of women going through it. I don't need anyone's permission to do that. All I have to do is bow my head and pray.

As far as the military is concerned, I, regardless of how I feel about some men that are in the military, will still continue to show my support for what they have been/are/will do for our country, freedom, and safety. There is a certain American pride in me that makes my heart go out to those in the military. That is one of the most unselfish and difficult things anyone could do. So, I don't see a problem with having flags in the sanctuary. There are flags on the altar in most churches that I have been a part of (and I think there is one in my current church, usually I don't pay attention to that during Mass, but there may be one).

I honestly think this pastory is on the right track and is more concerned about preaching the Word of God and spreading His love rather than rebuking everything and everyone he doens't agree with. It seems he realizes that God wants us to come as we are to Him and not worry about what other say. He seems focus on the true Christian goal as opposed to the man-made one. I think it's quite beautiful actually. He is the kind of person that a non-Christian could look at and be like "Oh, he won't hate me because I'm not a Christian, nor will he preach to me about it." You shouldn't scare people into being Christians and he knows that and he knows that that isn't making him look any better in God's eyes. Besides, I think it says in the Bible (I don't read the Bible much, but I think I read this in the New Testament where Paul was giving a sermon or Jesus was at a party or something) "Let the one who is without sin be the first to condemn." I looooove that scripture.

No one has the right to point fingers at everyone else, lest someone do it right back to them.

~chris~
Ne vous inquietez pas. Je ne vous hais pas . . . . encore, mais faites attention !
 
scintx
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I also don't think Jesus was comparable to liberals or conservatives of today. He seems to have been his own man, and displayed traits of both.

I'd bet that Jesus would be fairly pissed off if he returned right this second.....

just a guess.

I could not have said this better myself.
Attention All Planets of the Solar Federation....We have assumed control.....We have assumed control......
 
Falcon84
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I'd bet that Jesus would be fairly pissed off if he returned right this second.....

just a guess.

With who, my friend? Those on the right pushing an agressive militant nationalism, whom use law to discriminate against those they don't like, or against those on the left, who may not believe in God, or who don't have a practicing faith?

I'd say he'd be a little pissed at both extremes.

Aside from that point, I agree with Rev. Boyd. He talks about going to the end of a July 4th service, with a huge flag in the background, and a video of a cross with fighter jets flying over them.

What's being glorified there? God and His Son? Or militant nationalism? Christian Churches should not ever be used to foster those things, because that's when you start to push fascism.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
dl021
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 16):
Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services?

Jesus would give them a chance to change, and if no change then they would be tossed out.

I'd say that faith is something that may mean different things to us. I don't think that Jesus would toss anyone out of his church for sexual relations with a consenting adult. That's a difference in subsection of belief. Based on our own interpretations and logic. and Faith....

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
With who, my friend?

Everyone. The right and left. For reasons different than you illustrate below. The hypocrisy and lack of responsibility of many on the left would hurt him, the cruelty and avarice exhibited by many on the right would also hurt him.

I think that he'd be hurt more than pissed, to change my own words, because I think he loved and still loves us. My faith.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 20):
Those on the right pushing an agressive militant nationalism, whom use law to discriminate against those they don't like, or against those on the left, who may not believe in God, or who don't have a practicing faith?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 10):

Good point, but I wouldn't compare Jesus to the liberals of today. Example, Jesus loved the world, he didn't hate it. Jesus didn't go against EVERYTHING just to do it, Jesus wasn't spineless, and Jesus wasn't Godless. Big difference.

How can you ever expect to be taken seriously anywhere when you're so blatantly ignorant? Truly a sad individual.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
MD-90
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:27 am

The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

My Southern Baptist church is conservative, fundamentalist, and evangelical, and I've never seen or heard of any of those things being done. Although we did have an anti-lottery sign planted outside the church for a while.


I fully agree with Reverend Boyd. Lots of Christians seem to view the State as an idol that they adore.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
I think that he'd be hurt more than pissed, to change my own words, because I think he loved and still loves us. My faith.

 checkmark 

"When He (Jesus) saw the crowds He had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." (Mk. 9:36)

These are the words that came to mind frequently during the now concluded 6 day criminal case trial that began less than 3 weeks ago in which I was a juror. Not only in my thoughts toward the defendant but also for the 11 witnesses to the crime who testified. All were very young adults, 20-23 years of age, whose lack of positive parental guidance, especially from their fathers, was very apparent -- and a common denominator as the underlying cause of the events that led up to what happened the night of the crime (two counts of aggravated assault involving use of a firearm). As much as it hurt -- and even tore at my emotions -- to see the position the defendant had allowed himself to be put into, based on instructions from the judge (sympathy for the defendant must not be allowed to influence our verdict was among the rules laid down) and based on the evidence presented, it was also necessary, albeit painful, to find the defendant guilty, which makes him a felon for life. All of which brings the following to mind:

"The Lord...the compassionate God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished... (Ex. 34:6-7)

Since Jesus very much claimed to be God (in human form), this would be the same mind Jesus would have toward individuals in our world today. Seems like the contemporary versions of "liberalism" and "conservatism" (at least as practiced in the U.S. today) both tend to fail in reconciling the two sides of Ex. 34:6-7 as Jesus so perfectly did. Also, just today, I re-discovered a thought-provoking quote from an unknown source that I had written down several years ago that is germane to the topic of what Jesus would do today, based on what He and His followers did some 1,975 years ago (give or take a few years):

"We (followers of Jesus) don't exist to change the world, but it will happen as we learn and live the truth." Which reminds me that it was Jesus Himself who told His followers, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." As in freedom from the bondage of greed, malice and a host of evils that are behind all that is wrong in world today.

In fact, even though it never entered the minds of the true followers of Jesus to hold rallies against injustice, organize boycotts or demand that everyone live as they did, it was their enemies who noted that the followers of Jesus "turned the world upside down." How very much unlike both "liberalism" and "conservatism" as widely practiced today (at least in the U.S.)
 
IceTitan447
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 24):
"We (followers of Jesus) don't exist to change the world, but it will happen as we learn and live the truth." Which reminds me that it was Jesus Himself who told His followers, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." As in freedom from the bondage of greed, malice and a host of evils that are behind all that is wrong in world today.

Thanks for sharing this quote. This is a nice read, thanks again.
 
MD-90
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 24):
All were very young adults, 20-23 years of age, whose lack of positive parental guidance, especially from their fathers, was very apparent

Bingo. Lack of fathering = young men without good moral compasses.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 24):
How very much unlike both "liberalism" and "conservatism" as widely practiced today (at least in the U.S.)

Yup. Jesus was a libertarian.
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:06 am

Rev. Boyd is right on! The only time churches should be concerned with government is if the government infringes on their freedom of religion rights.

As far as flags and patriotism in the church, there is a very thin line between being thankful that we are in a country that guarantees freedom of religion (nothing wrong with that) vs. celebrating the country and everything that goes along with it (everything wrong with that). My church in Canada had a Canadian flag in the entrance area and no one had a problem with that.

Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 10):
Good point, but I wouldn't compare Jesus to the liberals of today. Example, Jesus loved the world, he didn't hate it. Jesus didn't go against EVERYTHING just to do it, Jesus wasn't spineless, and Jesus wasn't Godless. Big difference.

I know of a good number of liberals and none are anti-american, spineless and godless.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
halls120
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Because the flag, tied with the cross, would give fascism a so-called moral ground on which to stand

Frankly, I ain't buying it. The flag in the altar has been here for a long time and Fascism is nowhere to be found. Sorry Falcon, but you are defending a stupid decision.

Back when I actually went to church, I was a member of a very liberal Presbyterian congregation in Marin County, itself a hotbed of liberalism. There was a US flag always on display in the sanctuary. And there was no fascism anywhere to be found.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
I actually think that this guy is correct. Religion should not enter politics.

I wholeheartedly agree. But how is the display of the US flag a political act?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
piercey
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RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 2):
"And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary? After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up"

I didn't know that patriotism was a conservative value. He should be ashamed for denying this simple and harmless request.



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 4):
That liberal minister and you are misreading this simple act of love to your country.

No, you're both wrong.

Displaying the flag for real patriotism (i.e. 4th of July, veteran/family of)  yes 
Displaying the flag for fake patriotism (support of war, just because)  no 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
The flag belongs outside the church, not in the sanctuary. That's God's place.

 checkmark 
If anything the flag of the Vatican should be in the pulpit, that's it.
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting Piercey (Reply 29):
Displaying the flag for fake patriotism (support of war, just because)

Displaying the flag at home is fine I believe for this. Supporting the troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and all over the world. Keeping freedom in the United States.

My Church (Non-Denominational) puts the United States flag and Christian flag up at the front. This does not meen that Church and State is together. It means we are Christians and Americans. Thats it!
Don't Tread On Me!
 
IceTitan447
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:27 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 27):
I know of a good number of liberals and none are anti-american, spineless and godless.

I have never met one, but then again I have never seen the A380 either, but I know it exist. Smile
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
Must be going blind, haven't noticed an American flag in either the altar or sancturary of our catholic church, will check in a few hours.

Didn't see one today, but then again since this is Arizona, maybe I should have been looking for a Mexico flag.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 27):
I know of a good number of liberals and none are anti-american, spineless and godless.

I've met a couple, but I've also met a couple of spineless conservatives....Ralph Reed for one. I have problems with the average liberals philosophy, but I think that the labels we've assigned are wrong to begin with. I don't think I'm all that conservative. I don't think most "liberals" are all that liberal.

If the labels are wrong then how can we trust the definers?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 28):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
I actually think that this guy is correct. Religion should not enter politics.

I wholeheartedly agree. But how is the display of the US flag a political act?

When it's displayed in an effort to motivate people to vote or move in a particular manner. If it's displayed by a congregation out of a feeling of respect for the country that allows them the freedom to worship as they choose (i.e. gratitude) then I don't see a problem with it. I don't believe you have to treat every situation the same, as different situations have different motivations.

I display the flag at my home, but I don't require people who enter my home to vote my way, or even vote. Many churches seem to really push their congregation to vote in a particular manner. Some I've seen only allow some candidates to address their flock, in others the pastor/priest endorses a particular candidate. I think that's wrong. Let all the candidates who wish speak, or none. Don't endorse anyone, but teach your values and trust in your congregation to make the right decisions.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 29):
If anything the flag of the Vatican should be in the pulpit, that's it.

Unless they're protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, Hindu.....you get the drift.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 29):
Displaying the flag for fake patriotism (support of war,

I display my flag every day and night (lighted up) in support of our efforts in the war on terrorism and the troops out there defending our rights and freedoms. Please don't call what I do false patriotism. I have served my country and would do so again if called. Your profile indicates you are young and attend a Catholic high school.....spend some more time considering your position and form some more coherent thoughts prior to questioning peoples patriotism based on premises that you've accepted from others.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 29):
No, you're both wrong

The same guy posted both of those quotes.

Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 31):
I have never met one, but then again I have never seen the A380 either, but I know it exist

I've seen the A380, and a self-described liberal once helped me change a machine gun barrel while we were using it for it's intended purpose. I'd say that perhaps less generalizing and grouping may make it easier to find acceptance for your core views rather than immediate disagreement based on rejection of your accusations. I can't think of a way right now to soften that but it's not meant harshly.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
I'd say that perhaps less generalizing and grouping may make it easier to find acceptance for your core views rather than immediate disagreement based on rejection of your accusations. I can't think of a way right now to soften that but it's not meant harshly.

Well said. His proclaimed attitude is pathetic and downright sad. Talk about a prejudice.

"never met one". How ignorant can you be? You must not talk much politics outside of your little clique, because I assure you, you've met plenty. I have many conservative friends, and know some great conservative people.

[Edited 2006-07-31 03:19:44]
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 32):
Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
Must be going blind, haven't noticed an American flag in either the altar or sancturary of our catholic church, will check in a few hours.

Didn't see one today, but then again since this is Arizona, maybe I should have been looking for a Mexico flag.

 rotfl 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
When it's displayed in an effort to motivate people to vote or move in a particular manner. If it's displayed by a congregation out of a feeling of respect for the country that allows them the freedom to worship as they choose (i.e. gratitude) then I don't see a problem with it.

Well, from how the flag issue is portrayed in the article, it didn't sound like the request was being made for the purpose both you and I agree is improper.

This particular pastor sounds like a guy I agree with on most matters - especially on the overt politicization of evangelical Christianity. Saying no to a display of the US flag isn't one of them.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
catholic2006
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:33 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting Catholic2006 (Reply 18):
Even though I may be Christian and Republican (not hard core), I cannot say that I totally disagree with Rev. Boyd.

I think it's somewhat childish for someone to leave a church because of political reasons. I do not feel that the church is a political party, but a place to worship God and get closer to God with other Christians that can help and encourage you on that journey.

God will not punish you in hell because you have a certain political view, so why would treat someone else like they are leading you away from the path of righteousness? Even if the priest at my church started saying that we don't need Jesus, I would not change churches just because of that because I feel that God has given me and everyone the tools to decide for themselves what they need to do to get to Him. Just because someone is a priest doesn't mean he can make my mind go one way. That is my decision.

If I were to think like that, I would not be friends with the fabulous young ladies that I am friends with. Most of them do not attend church regularly and some are atheists, one a satanist, but not devout (because she doesn't believe in organized religion). Mostly all of them are pro-choice (only one is pro-abortion), and there are even maybe 1 or 2 that are not for gay marriage, but do openly rebuke the discrimination and harrassment towards homosexuals. They love me, I love them, we bond. There should be that same family connection in churches, although large churches lack that these days.

Also, if I were that picky about things I believe, I would not be a Catholic (even though over the past few months, I have been labeling myself as a Chrisitian, and I really wish I could change my username, haha) because some aspects of my life conflict with the catechism and with Christianity, but I'm not perfect, and I still go to confession to rid myself of the guilt and then try not to do it again, but omg, it's hard. I still believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior that God sent into the world to achieve salvation for those who will accept it and the Holy Spirit inspires my heart to accept it, so therefore I am still a Christian. I do agree with most of the teachings of the Catholic church and the dogmas, but there are many things that I don't believe (scapular medals, indulgences, only Catholics can partake of the Eucharist, things like that). Trust me, I have no intentions of leaving the Catholic church even though I can worship in any Christian church, I will not remove myself from the Catholic denomination (that is all it is to me, a denomination) because of simple little rules.

Why can't they have a rally against homosexuality and abortion on their own? Why can't they show their support for the military on their own? I know that I personally pray often for an end to abortion or a change in the hearts of women going through it. I don't need anyone's permission to do that. All I have to do is bow my head and pray.

As far as the military is concerned, I, regardless of how I feel about some men that are in the military, will still continue to show my support for what they have been/are/will do for our country, freedom, and safety. There is a certain American pride in me that makes my heart go out to those in the military. That is one of the most unselfish and difficult things anyone could do. So, I don't see a problem with having flags in the sanctuary. There are flags on the altar in most churches that I have been a part of (and I think there is one in my current church, usually I don't pay attention to that during Mass, but there may be one).

I honestly think this pastory is on the right track and is more concerned about preaching the Word of God and spreading His love rather than rebuking everything and everyone he doens't agree with. It seems he realizes that God wants us to come as we are to Him and not worry about what other say. He seems focus on the true Christian goal as opposed to the man-made one. I think it's quite beautiful actually. He is the kind of person that a non-Christian could look at and be like "Oh, he won't hate me because I'm not a Christian, nor will he preach to me about it." You shouldn't scare people into being Christians and he knows that and he knows that that isn't making him look any better in God's eyes. Besides, I think it says in the Bible (I don't read the Bible much, but I think I read this in the New Testament where Paul was giving a sermon or Jesus was at a party or something) "Let the one who is without sin be the first to condemn." I looooove that scripture.

No one has the right to point fingers at everyone else, lest someone do it right back to them.

~chris~

I really hope this man unintenionally starts some kind of movement or revival in the Christian church. Everything seems to be going under and falling apart (I almost left Christianity for good myself), hopefully something good will come out of this in the long run. There are never enough good examples, however, there are too few.

~chris~
Ne vous inquietez pas. Je ne vous hais pas . . . . encore, mais faites attention !
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting Catholic2006 (Reply 36):
Also, if I were that picky about things I believe, I would not be a Catholic (even though over the past few months, I have been labeling myself as a Chrisitian[SIC], and I really wish I could change my username, haha) because some aspects of my life conflict with the catechism and with Christianity, but I'm not perfect, and I still go to confession to rid myself of the guilt and then try not to do it again, but omg, it's hard. I still believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior that God sent into the world to achieve salvation for those who will accept it and the Holy Spirit inspires my heart to accept it, so therefore I am still a Christian.

You are labeling yourself as "Christian". Good. But what do you think that "Catholics" are?

In just one words: "Christians" !

All of them.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
catholic2006
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:33 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 37):
You are labeling yourself as "Christian". Good. But what do you think that "Catholics" are?

In just one words: "Christians" !

All of them.

I know, but I when I'm telling someone about my faith, I want them to label me as Christian because it concentrates on the essence of why I'm a Christian in the first place. If I labeled myself primarily as Catholic, then I feel people would be like "Oh, he hates homosexuals, he hates people who have abortions, he worships statues and worships dead people and a virgin that wasn't even a virgin, and he prays with those cute little beads." They wouldn't concentrate on the fact that I love Jesus and that I'm thankful for being able to receive the gift of salvation. They would concentrate on doctrinal things that more or less supplement or augment my faith and thirst for God.

Before, and for a while, I would not let anyone get to know me WITHOUT them knowing that I am part of the Catholic religion (what I refer to as the Catholic faith now in my new terms as of the past 4 or 5 months. I don't have a religion, I have a faith). I wanted everyone to know that I was Catholic. I would talk the hell out of people about the catechism and Holy Eucharist (I had an obsession with the Eucharist, well I still do now!!!). Everything was about my Catholicism, but where was my relationship with God? Yeah, I knew the church and the saints and the practices and the feast days and such and such inside and out. I was a walking catechism and dictionary for the Church, but I was about the show (check out my username that I made 3 years ago), the rules, the practices and rituals, the religion as opposed to about God. Now, I actually know why I'm Christian and why I identify more with the Catholic faith.

~chris~

I actually haven't been praying as much as I should for the unity of the Christian church.
Ne vous inquietez pas. Je ne vous hais pas . . . . encore, mais faites attention !
 
piercey
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:07 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 32):
maybe I should have been looking for a Mexico flag.

 rotfl 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
Unless they're protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, Hindu.....you get the drift.

I'm using the example of my faith (Roman Catholic). This is a no duh for other religons

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
Please don't call what I do false patriotism. I have served my country and would do so again if called.

If you have noticed, one of the good reasons was service to our country  Wink

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
Your profile indicates you are young and attend a Catholic high school

The private hs part was do to personal reasons involving a corrupt principle and a dumb@$$ BOE, not because of my faith.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
spend some more time considering your position and form some more coherent thoughts prior to questioning peoples patriotism based on premises that you've accepted from others.

Allow me to correct myself. What I meant by "false patriotism" was people putting flags in their front yards like it's the latest fasion statement. I should not have used support for the war as an example. My bad.

btw, we have a flag in front of our house for my grandpa (WWII) and 2 uncles ('nam and Korea)

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):

The same guy posted both of those quotes.

figures.... I blame my eyesight.
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
IceTitan447
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:27 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 31):
I have never met one, but then again I have never seen the A380 either, but I know it exist

I've seen the A380, and a self-described liberal once helped me change a machine gun barrel while we were using it for it's intended purpose. I'd say that perhaps less generalizing and grouping may make it easier to find acceptance for your core views rather than immediate disagreement based on rejection of your accusations. I can't think of a way right now to soften that but it's not meant harshly.

Fair enough, but Cindy Sheehan doesn't help the Liberal cause, Michael Moore's either. I dont agree with Liberals therefore I resort to stereotypical thoughts and expressions, my fault.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting Piercey (Reply 39):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
Unless they're protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, Hindu.....you get the drift.

I'm using the example of my faith (Roman Catholic). This is a no duh for other religons

The problem is that with highly charged topics such as this there is no "no-duh" when you aren't as clear as you could be....

Quoting Piercey (Reply 39):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
Please don't call what I do false patriotism. I have served my country and would do so again if called.

If you have noticed, one of the good reasons was service to our country

Yes, but your post indicated something that you have corrected here:

Quoting Piercey (Reply 39):
Allow me to correct myself. What I meant by "false patriotism" was people putting flags in their front yards like it's the latest fasion statement. I should not have used support for the war as an example. My bad.



Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 40):
Fair enough, but Cindy Sheehan doesn't help the Liberal cause, Michael Moore's either. I dont agree with Liberals therefore I resort to stereotypical thoughts and expressions, my fault.

I understand what you're feeling, but falling into that trap limits your ability/desire to reason with them, and that simply reinforces to them their feelings of correctness.

It's often difficult for a liberal to reason effectively on their feelings since they are more emotion based than logic based. It often turns out that the average "liberal" and "conservative" have the same baseline desires, and that common ground is not that hard to find when determining paths to their shared goals. The majority of the divisions come from the zealots on both ends who play up the differences in order to attain or retain power, and these same divisions are repeated by the masses who've chosen one side or the other.

Fitting people into categories is the easiest way to deal with them.....treating everyone individually is the most difficult. The middle ground to choose is an art and it varies with the current level of stamina and will power possessed by an individual.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
It's often difficult for a liberal to reason effectively on their feelings since they are more emotion based than logic based.

And conservatives don't?

The stock slogan "It's a child, not a choice," is just as emotion based as "Keep your hands off my body." And the Terry Schiavo weeping brigade takes the prize for emotion-based "logic."

And this business of what would Jesus do today is already well known. We all know that he'd be on South Park.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 42):
And this business of what would Jesus do today is already well known. We all know that he'd be on South Park.

 rotfl  he certainly would....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting IceTitan447 (Reply 40):

Fair enough, but Cindy Sheehan doesn't help the Liberal cause, Michael Moore's either. I dont agree with Liberals therefore I resort to stereotypical thoughts and expressions, my fault.

WHAT!?! What kind of logic do you use?

Having a vendeta and prejudice against every liberal because you dont like two of them?! Why surely they must be all the same! I just can't even fathom whats going on in that noggin of yours to justify be disgusted by millions and millions as a by-product of the actions of two. Are there any conservatives you don't like?

Just go talk to someone without preconceived notions and bias, you might learn something.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 42):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 41):
It's often difficult for a liberal to reason effectively on their feelings since they are more emotion based than logic based.

And conservatives don't?

I should have said that extremists on the left, or the right. Thanks for hoisting me on the petard of the point I was making.... I do feel that self-defined liberals make their decisions more on emotion than logic. My feelings on Schiavo and abortion are more about logic than my emotional response.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 42):
The stock slogan "It's a child, not a choice," is just as emotion based

Well, if you look at the cold hard truth on that you have to decide that the child is not viable, which is not scientific but emotional. If there's a discussion and you are taking a position that's not substantiated by any real science then you're being emotional....and if you're not erring on the side of life then I wonder what emotions one is using....

But this is a completely different topic. I can say the same thing about many of the Schiavo wailers who beat their chests on both sides of that issue which became dominated by national politics more than concern for the girl ( except for the recent recoveries of a couple of people in similar situations). But again....off-topic.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 42):
And this business of what would Jesus do today is already well known. We all know that he'd be on South Park.

Wasn't he already on that show?

The problem I have with the WWJD bracelets (other than my belief that many are wearing them for the ticket punching factor) is that at some point a person is going to answer that question with a loud and charismatic voice and people will follow that person....and I won't like what he has to say about what Jesus would do.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Remember, to those who disagree with this Reverend: Jesus wasn't a Republican, and he wasn't a Conservative. He was a Liberal.

Jesus can hardly be described by a single, subjectively human term.

[Edited 2006-07-31 19:50:22]
Up, up and away!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
Well, if you look at the cold hard truth on that you have to decide that the child is not viable, which is not scientific but emotional. If there's a discussion and you are taking a position that's not substantiated by any real science then you're being emotional....and if you're not erring on the side of life then I wonder what emotions one is using....

Well, that's just it. People are scared to use cold, hard, scientific arguments which in this case would be "its not a child, its the possibility of a child, but right now its just a bunch of cells." Thus, they launch into the emotional argument of "keep your laws off my body." I suppose in the end, logic is just an emotional connivance of sorts.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: My Kind Of Conservative Christian Evangelical

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 47):
People are scared to use cold, hard, scientific arguments which in this case would be "its not a child, its the possibility of a child,

You're not accepting that you are changing the definition of life to suit your desires. I know you're an expert at semantics (not a dis...you are a professional with argument) so answer this. Do the laws that allow a man to be charged with murder for killing a pregnant womans gestating child make sense or should they be abolished?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 47):
I suppose in the end, logic is just an emotional connivance of sorts.

One plus one is two. Where's the emotion?

We're starting a whole new topic here.

All religion is emotional to a degree because it's an expression of faith in a higher concept. Different people have different religions, either given and accepted or self-developed.

I don't think that everyone who doesn't believe my way is going to hell, but I'm pretty sure that plenty of people that express similar beliefs to me are going straight past Virgil on their descent to the umpteenth level where they'll cohabit with Hitler, Stalin and whoever directed "A Night at the Roxbury".
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?

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