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Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:32 am

This thread is for discussion and debate of the political issues revolving around the current Middle East conflict.

YOU ARE NOT TO POST INSULTS, ABUSE, INSINUATIONS ABOUT USERS, FLAMEBAIT, RACISM, INCITEMENTS TO VIOLENCE OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Any posts which are removed from this thread for breaching the above condition will result in an AUTOMATIC 2 WEEK BAN, with the possibility of the ban being extended where the moderators feel the breach warrants it. You have been warned.

Please also see these other threads: Official Middle East Situation Report Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation) Official Sympathy For Israel Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation) Official Sympathy For Lebanon Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)

[Edited 2006-08-01 03:39:40]
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Gilligan
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
YOU ARE NOT TO POST INSULTS, ABUSE, INSINUATIONS ABOUT USERS, FLAMEBAIT, RACISM, INCITEMENTS TO VIOLENCE OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Well this will be a short discussion.
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piercey
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:55 am

Alright, my opinion is this. Both sides screwed up, big time. Lebanon screwed up by not controlling Hezbollah. Israel screwed up by boasting they have smart bombs and have killed a rediculas amount of civilians. Yes, Lebanon is a young gov't that doesn't have complete control yet, and yes Hezbollah launches from houses that Israel must hit, but both countries have broken eggs.

At the same time, it's hard to pick sides. Israel has been taking this shite from Hezbullah for long enough, but at the same time Israel launched a very unproportionate attack, screwing over the civillians of not just Lebanon, but several other countries (but I think a lot of people can agree that Israel can rape Lebanon if they used full force if they were pushed far enough).

All I know - civilians are screwed, just like all wars
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
qr332
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting Piercey (Reply 2):
Yes, Lebanon is a young gov't that doesn't have complete control yet, and yes Hezbollah launches from houses that Israel must hit, but both countries have broken eggs.

But what real evidence is there that Hezbollah does actually use these methods other than a few IDF videos showing a building with a rocket originating from behind it? In every single attack on civilians, Israel uses the exact same excuse. So let me get this straight, up to 750 civilians have been killed because there were rockets being fired from next to them? I don't buy it.

Also, lets not forget what the Chief of Staff of the IDF instructed: for every rocket fired on Haifa, ten multi-story buildings would be hit in South Beirut:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...DF-5EE4-4733-ACB4-F2EE55F3E0BA.htm

Looks much more like tit for tat and a complete disregard for life from Israel to me.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 2):
At the same time, it's hard to pick sides. Israel has been taking this shite from Hezbullah for long enough, but at the same time Israel launched a very unproportionate attack, screwing over the civillians of not just Lebanon, but several other countries (but I think a lot of people can agree that Israel can rape Lebanon if they used full force if they were pushed far enough).

But lets not forget what was the reason Hezbollah was formed in the first place: the 1982 invasion which cost the life of 20,000 people and the USA's unconditional support despite horrific actions committed by Israel. Up until Hezbollah pushed them out in 2000, Israel held on to South Lebanon, and still holds Lebanese POWs without trial to this day, the main reason this conflict started. As for Israel being able to rape Lebanon, that is true, as we have seen in 1982, and I am willing to bet Israel could carpet bomb Beirut without the world taking any real action - the US probably wouldn't even condemn it, they didn't even condemn the attack on Qana yesterday.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
csavel
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:18 pm

OK It is time for the UN to take back the mandate of Palestine and decide what to do with it.

I mean if both the Israelis and the Palestinians can't agree and have been killing each other for fifty years, it is time to *take back the mandate* Then the international community will impose a settlement.

Just like parents who have children who won't share, just like parents whose children are kicking the crap out of each other, each side saying "he started it" the parents have to end it. Period.

Personally I favor the Edward Said solution of a bicultural, bilingual, binational state since I think that is the only way, but if a two state solution based on 67 is decreed, so be it. Either way, a truth and reconciliation commission will be set up. Palestinians or their descendants who decide not to go Israelistine get to have citizenship in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon or whatever Arab country they have been refugees in.

International community rebuilds Lebanon and Northern Israel, guarantees Israel's security (Oops I mean the International protectorate of Isreal/Palestine) and deals brutally with Hezbollah, but here is the point.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, Israel is a state, as a state Israel must follow rules that terrorists don't. analogy is like if a gang of ruthless homicidal maniacs take over an apartment building in NYC, cops have a right for sharpshooters to take a shot. Cops have a right to send in tear gas, cops don't have a right to blow up the building thereby killing a shitload of civilians, *even though the homicidal maniacs would.*

I understand the anger of Israeli's who at least with Lebanon, did comply with UN resolutions, and did leave Lebanon. A military incursion into the south to get their soldiers and take out Hezbollah is justified, airstrikes *may* be justified if you are pretty sure and if civilian casualties aren't gonna happen, otherwise states have to play by rules alas.

I look forward to the day when I land at Tel-Aviv/Jaffa airport, re-named Najeeb Halaby International Airport to honor the most famous aviation person of Arab descent. Walking around Jerusalem going up to Ramallah, stopping at the Edward Said institute for some pseudo-intellectual talk, and then take the fast train to Beirut.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
Klaus
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):
Just like parents who have children who won't share, just like parents whose children are kicking the crap out of each other, each side saying "he started it" the parents have to end it. Period.

Personally I favor the Edward Said solution of a bicultural, bilingual, binational state since I think that is the only way, but if a two state solution based on 67 is decreed, so be it. Either way, a truth and reconciliation commission will be set up. Palestinians or their descendants who decide not to go Israelistine get to have citizenship in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon or whatever Arab country they have been refugees in.

International community rebuilds Lebanon and Northern Israel, guarantees Israel's security (Oops I mean the International protectorate of Isreal/Palestine) and deals brutally with Hezbollah, but here is the point.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, Israel is a state, as a state Israel must follow rules that terrorists don't. analogy is like if a gang of ruthless homicidal maniacs take over an apartment building in NYC, cops have a right for sharpshooters to take a shot. Cops have a right to send in tear gas, cops don't have a right to blow up the building thereby killing a shitload of civilians, *even though the homicidal maniacs would.*

Excellent proposal! Maybe not realistic, but still very sensible.  Smile
 
MYT332
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:36 pm

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Well with Rule 30 in place, err, isn't that anything you don't like?

Probably this post in fact.
One Life, Live it.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Threa

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):

What he said...all of it I agree with. Though sadly I do not see how this would happen. Even a two-state solution will not be enforced, not without the US stepping up to the plate. And that will happen...never I am afraid.

There are too many lies and hate on both sides. Hezbollah may have officially started in order to push out Israeli occupation, but its charter does call for Israel's destruction, and since the Iranians and Syrians have been helping them build strength they cannot be ignored. Unfortunately, they DO work from witihin densely populated areas and with support networks based in civilian targets. These are the hardest and cruelest kinds of militias to eradicate.

On the other hand, I simply don't see any moral excuse for Israel's response of killing countless civilians and destroying a fragile country that was until now the brightest new hope for positive change in the Middle East. And from a practical standpoint, Israel may show they are strong, but we all know that terrorists can hit the strongest countries and that Israel's actions will recruit new terrorists with each bomb...
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:37 pm

I'm certainly no advocate of killing innocent people - and this is a great analogy.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, Israel is a state, as a state Israel must follow rules that terrorists don't. analogy is like if a gang of ruthless homicidal maniacs take over an apartment building in NYC, cops have a right for sharpshooters to take a shot. Cops have a right to send in tear gas, cops don't have a right to blow up the building thereby killing a shitload of civilians, *even though the homicidal maniacs would.*

Using your analogy I pose the question:

How long do the cops wait for the homicidal maniacs as they slaughter off the occupants of the building or take pot shots at the cops killing them off one at a time before 'enough is enough' and it becomes more important to save another cop than worry about blowing up the building? One week? One month? One year? How long before the loss of the building/occupants becomes irrelevent because the homicidal maniacs therein have killed too many cops/innocents on the street? How long before that building becomes a liability?

And to add to the flavor of the analogy . . . .

If said occupants of said building had the means to secure the building and failed to do so, allowing the homicidal maniacs entry, even encouraging entry and giving quarter to them, what now becomes of the time line before the building needs to come down?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Klaus
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:50 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
If said occupants of said building had the means to secure the building and failed to do so, allowing the homicidal maniacs entry, even encouraging entry and giving quarter to them, what now becomes of the time line before the building needs to come down?

The police will always attempt to get the civilians out and then to subdue the intruders.

Or are you regularly blowing up houses in your line of work? Alaska may be different, but that much different...?  mischievous 
 
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casinterest
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
The police will always attempt to get the civilians out and then to subdue the intruders.

Even the plice at some point would storm the building to take out the snipers. Any civilians hit would be collateral damage.
If the civilians in side were relatively safe, and allowing the homocidal maniacs to take pot shots from their bedrooms at the neighboring buildings, then the need to invade would far outweigh the need to do nothing.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Threa

Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):

I look forward to the day when I land at Tel-Aviv/Jaffa airport, re-named Najeeb Halaby International Airport to honor the most famous aviation person of Arab descent. Walking around Jerusalem going up to Ramallah, stopping at the Edward Said institute for some pseudo-intellectual talk, and then take the fast train to Beirut.

Fantastic vision, I really look forward to such a day. I'm a bi-national secular state supporter myself, since IMHO the viable Palestinian state option has been killed by those ever-expanding settlements in the West Bank. A confereration system resembling the Swiss model might work, or a derivative...

You mentioned the Palestine issue re-tabled at the UN. Well the UN itself has passed resolutions which call on Israel to withdraw, but to no avail...

I doubt extremists on both sides will allow this binational state to happen. The Israelis are ruled by Zionist fanatics, who will (apparently) fight to death to maintain an "exclusive" Jewish state in Palestine, even if requiring a "transfer" of Palestinians to neighboring countries. On the other hand, Hamas and Jihad are keen to announce an Islamic state in which Jews are free to live (dominated by Muslims?).

The degree to which we will have peace and relative calm will depend on the ability of an external NEUTRAL arbitrator to pressure both sides to reign in extremists and extremists ideas on both sides. America has failed to live up to exptectations and has demonstrated total and unconditional support for the Jewish state. Apparently, the Americans are yet to understand that world peace and stability is completely interwined with the picture in the Middle East. Injustice and violence breeds more terrorism, the phenomena they allegedly want to eliminate.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:27 pm

The first photo on this website is quite shocking but it summarizes the situation in the Palestine/Israel:

http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/
If there is a will, there is a way
 
BotsCom
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Threa

Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:50 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 12):

The situation in the middle east is not a apartheid. It is quite clear, the Israelis and Palestinians, look remarkably similar to each other. A outsider, would have a hard time, telling between them.

Let us get one thing very very clear, Israel is the only democracy in that region, and is facing 22 avowed enemies, who want nothing more than for you to vanish.
Facing that situation, Israel has shown remarkable restraint, time and time again.
They quite frankly, should count themselves lucky, you are not facing Russia, who's idea of suppression is wholesale destruction.
TAAG-New 777's
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Threa

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:00 pm

Quoting BotsCom (Reply 13):
The situation in the middle east is not a apartheid. It is quite clear, the Israelis and Palestinians, look remarkably similar to each other. A outsider, would have a hard time, telling between them.

While I appreciate your input, I fail to see how someone in Luanda wants to enlighten me about what the situation in the Middle East "really is"...It's just beyond comprehension. You obviously didn't view the photo on this website:

http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/

The Jews / Palestinians don't look alike. Such ridiculous statement is like saying "East Africans look like West Africans" (which they don't) or that "Koreans look like Phillipinos so why not live together".

Quoting BotsCom (Reply 13):
Let us get one thing very very clear, Israel is the only democracy in that region

Another stubborn myth propagated by CNN and other American networks. Israel has nothing to boast about except occupying 4 million Palestinians within its unofficial borders, denying them voting / living rights.

[Edited 2006-08-01 14:02:26]
If there is a will, there is a way
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
You obviously didn't view the photo on this website:

http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/

Hmm, yes this Website isn't putting a spin on things at all.  Yeah sure

Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 28):
I have a dream....i see Arab people governed by responsible, honest, transparent, and democratic governments.

The complicity of some Arab governments cannot be accepted anymore, Arabs are fed up with their greedy leaders. Arabs have the right to defend themselves just as Israelis, Arabs have the right to uphold their interests, and control their own resources.

I can only dream...But the day is coming.

Your vision is unfortunately a very futuristic and un-real thought...
Let's face it -Arab leaders are -like many leaders- mainly interested in cementing power and personal wealth.The Sheiks and Emirs in the Gulf couldn't care less about Palestinian or Lebanese misery- as long as their personal petrol fountain provides them hassle-free governance,they don't care.
Manipulation of masses has always been the master-mind of all governments-keep them stupid and busy with religion,football and soap-operas on TV.
So we can enjoy a free ride on populistic media-campaign ,glorification of the great leaders and unchallenged re-elections.
There are some exceptions to the rule but they can be counted on the fingers of one hand.. ( Jordania,Oman,Lebanon-Morocco to a certain extent..)
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
BotsCom
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Threa

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:16 pm

I was replying to the poster who likened, the situation in the Middle-East to Apartheid. Let me repeat again. The situation is far from a Apartheid. Israel is a democracy, that is composed of many races, including Black Jews. You cannot dispute that. It is a fact. In fact, from what, I read and seen, Israeli Arabs have more rights to influence their affairs, than their 'brethen' in Jordan

Apartheid, was a state sanctioned racial segration, imposed by government.
I quote here from Wiki:

''In practice, this prevented non-white people — even if actually resident in white South Africa — from having a vote or influence, restricting their rights to faraway homelands which they may never have visited. Education, medical care, and other public services were sometimes claimed to be separate but equal, but those available to non-white people were in fact vastly inferior''

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
Another stubborn myth propagated by CNN and other American networks. Israel has nothing to boast about except occupying 4 million Palestinians within its unofficial borders, denying them voting / living rights.

Israel holds general elections. It has a directly elected parliament. It's prime minister is accountable to it's people at the ballot box. Ask that of Intel or Microsoft who base their most important technological research centres outside of their own countries. Or the multidude of scientific output that comes out of Israel, per year.

[Edited 2006-08-01 14:24:11]
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EurostarVA
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting BotsCom (Reply 18):
Israel holds general elections.

An election / representation system denied to the very same people it occupies.
Let's face it, Israel is a "democracy" for its Jews, on Arab land.
Dont forget that Arab village/towns in Galilee barely receive nothing in infrastructure / power/sewage/lighting/etc. If you dont believe me just r
efer to MK Azmi Bishara or Tibeh articles published on the Internet....

Israel is not a democracy, but a Jewish theocracy in Palestine or whatever you want to call it.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
BotsCom
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:26 pm

The fact that I live in Angola doesn't disqualify me from commenting on what I think. The conflict in that part of the world, has raged on for so long. That if you go about you daily life, anywhere in the world, you just won't/cannot escape from it. It's everywhere. The suspicions, certain people arose, Latins or Blacks, just because they pass for looking like a Arab in parts of Europe or North America. Try switching on your television screen, you can't escape it, or travel, getting to travel to America, getting so hard.
TAAG-New 777's
 
LY744
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:36 pm

Repost from locked threads for sake of discussion:

1. Hezbollah fighter keeps rifles and rockets in the bedroom closet of his family's home:
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/free...width=793,height=608,scrollbars=no

2. Foreign journalist has to "smuggle" pictures depicting unfavourable pictures of the Hezbollah out of Lebanon. Are Hezbollah PR people in firm control over western journalists in Lebanon? Is AP the new Al-Jazeera?  Wink
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
halls120
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:39 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
How long do the cops wait for the homicidal maniacs as they slaughter off the occupants of the building or take pot shots at the cops killing them off one at a time before 'enough is enough' and it becomes more important to save another cop than worry about blowing up the building? One week? One month? One year? How long before the loss of the building/occupants becomes irrelevent because the homicidal maniacs therein have killed too many cops/innocents on the street? How long before that building becomes a liability?

One of the toughest decisions in law enforcement.

Of course, we wouldn't blow up the building - at the point where it became obvious that the maniacs aren't going to negotiate and surrender peacefully, we send in SWAT to retake the building. Unfortunately that will result in the loss of some innocent life, but many others will be spared.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 11):
You mentioned the Palestine issue re-tabled at the UN. Well the UN itself has passed resolutions which call on Israel to withdraw, but to no avail...

The UN resolution commanding Hezbollah to disarm was also ignored - therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.

Therein lies proof that my continued contention that the UN is a hollowed out, obsolete, paper tiger organization is valid.

"Ohhhh, be careful, Kofi and company will pass another resolution if you don't do what they tell you".  sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
The UN resolution commanding Hezbollah to disarm was also ignored - therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.

That's right. Israel just filled in for an impotent UN, and a weak Lebanese government.

Actually I think the UN is the root cause of the situation (not historical, but in the current conflict). It cannot pacify.
Take off and live
 
jaysit
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.

Therein lies proof that my continued contention that the UN is a hollowed out, obsolete, paper tiger organization is valid.

"Ohhhh, be careful, Kofi and company will pass another resolution if you don't do what they tell you".

Maybe Condi can tickle the ivories in Kuala Lumpur and save the day !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 25):
Condi

Therein lies another one of my discomforts - where the hell is Henry Kissinger or Colin Powell when they're really needed???
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 1):
YOU ARE NOT TO POST INSULTS, ABUSE, INSINUATIONS ABOUT USERS, FLAMEBAIT, RACISM, INCITEMENTS TO VIOLENCE OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Well this will be a short discussion.

Not really. If we all abstain from instults or incitements to violence against acting state leaders, there is no problem at all.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):
favor the Edward Said solution of a bicultural, bilingual, binational state since I think that is the only way, but if a two state solution based on 67 is decreed, so be it. Either way, a truth and reconciliation commission will be set up.

NOT to be in bicultural or tricultural entity but to have their Jewish State is the basic idea of what Israel is all about. They are NOT to accept such an idea. That idea btw. was favoured by Yassir Arafat also.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, Israel is a state, as a state Israel must follow rules that terrorists don't. analogy is like if a gang of ruthless homicidal maniacs take over an apartment building in NYC, cops have a right for sharpshooters to take a shot. Cops have a right to send in tear gas, cops don't have a right to blow up the building thereby killing a shitload of civilians, *even though the homicidal maniacs would.*

All quite to the contrary of what the Israeli leadership does in reality

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 12):
photo on this website is quite shocking but it summarizes the situation in the Palestine/Israel:

not shocking to Israelis and to pro-Zionist sympathizers in the world, and apparently quite welcome to that most honourable leader in the White House

Quoting BotsCom (Reply 13):
shown remarkable restraint,

to start a blockade against an entire nation, to bomb airport, seaport and the road-network is NOT restraint, NOT AT ALL
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
The Jews / Palestinians don't look alike

You're right, they often wear different clothes. Other than that they're like twin brothers that were separated at birth (because they basically are).

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
Also, lets not forget what the Chief of Staff of the IDF instructed: for every rocket fired on Haifa, ten multi-story buildings would be hit in South Beirut:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...A.htm

I'm sure you can distinguish between what someone supposedely said to some reporter (quite possibly tongue in cheek), and what the ACTUAL policy is. So let's not forget THAT also.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Therein lies another one of my discomforts - where the hell is Henry Kissinger or Colin Powell when they're really needed???

I could understand Colin Powell as a negotiator and/or intermediate - but Henry Kissenger ????
He would not have any credibility with the Arabs.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Klaus
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
Therein lies proof that my continued contention that the UN is a hollowed out, obsolete, paper tiger organization is valid.



Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 24):
Actually I think the UN is the root cause of the situation (not historical, but in the current conflict). It cannot pacify.

"The UN" is a forum for the actual national governments. If "the UN" doesn't take action it means that the UN Security Council has been blocked again by one or more of its permanent member nations. In the case of anything regarding Israel, it's invariably the US delegation which blocks anything else but full support for whatever the respective israeli government wants.

Your criticism is therefore to be aimed at Washington to a large degree.
 
jaysit
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Therein lies another one of my discomforts - where the hell is Henry Kissinger or Colin Powell when they're really needed???

Kissinger is counting his money somewhere. He's cashed in on his days of shuttle diplomacy.

And Colin Powell has sadly lost all credibility post Iraq. My problem with Powell was that even though he never believed all the nonsense Wolfowitz et al were spewing on Iraq, he still parroted the official White House line. Only when he was safely outside the White House, did he say "Oh, but I never believed any of that." To me that is gross intellectual cowardice.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
to start a blockade against an entire nation, to bomb airport, seaport and the road-network is NOT restraint, NOT AT ALL

Actually, it is. The IDF could have mowed through Lebanon in rather short order.

I for one am glad they didn't - and believe they overstepped their intended target on a couple of occasions - but in the end - restraint is the right word.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:12 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
"The UN" is a forum for the actual national governments. If "the UN" doesn't take action it means that the UN Security Council has been blocked again by one or more of its permanent member nations. In the case of anything regarding Israel, it's invariably the US delegation which blocks anything else but full support for whatever the respective israeli government wants

We know what the basis of UN is and how it "functions", thanks.


Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Your criticism is therefore to be aimed at Washington to a large degree.

No, my criticism is aimed at the UN because it does not work whatever the origin. I know you are quick to finger the US, but take one step back and try to analyze the UN results as a process.
Take off and live
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 28):
Also, lets not forget what the Chief of Staff of the IDF instructed: for every rocket fired on Haifa, ten multi-story buildings would be hit in South Beirut:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...A.htm
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I'm sure you can distinguish between what someone supposedely said to some reporter (quite possibly tongue in cheek), and what the ACTUAL policy is. So let's not forget THAT also.

Let's pray and hope that YOU are correct !!  pray 

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 29):
Therein lies another one of my discomforts - where the hell is Henry Kissinger or Colin Powell when they're really needed???
---
I could understand Colin Powell as a negotiator and/or intermediate - but Henry Kissenger ????
He would not have any credibility with the Arabs.

While Colin Powell as foreign minister lost all credibility, Jewish Henry Kissinger in fact always enjoyed some respect and credibility.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 31):
Colin Powell has sadly lost all credibility

absolutely. A good general, and excellent in his "caretaker-function" in the 2nd term of Ronald Reagan, he scored badly as foreign minister. Mostly NOT his guilt of course, but the "fingerprint" of your boss always stays.
 
LY744
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 24):
Actually I think the UN is the root cause of the situation (not historical, but in the current conflict). It cannot pacify.

The fact is that UN has been present in South Lebanon since what, 1978? Despite the fact that countless peace keepers have been putting their lives on the line in the region ever since, the organization they stand for has done NOTHING to prevent hostilities. The UN did nothing to stop Hezbollah and its predecessors from firing rockets on Israel or making incursions south of the border in 28 years. And they can't do anything when the IDF response comes either... face it, the only time anyone hears about the UN in Lebanon is when a peace keeper dies or their offices get mobbed.

Any potential peace keeping solution that even mentions the UN is nothing but a rude joke.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Klaus
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 28):
I'm sure you can distinguish between what someone supposedely said to some reporter (quite possibly tongue in cheek), and what the ACTUAL policy is. So let's not forget THAT also.

Well, when the actually executed policy is basically 1:1 identical with those "tongue in cheek" remarks, those tends to gain credibility nevertheless.

Just like Mel Gibson's drunken anti-semitic ramblings, an accidental slip-up can be highly revealing of otherwise hidden goals and attitudes.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:20 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 35):
Any potential peace keeping solution that even mentions the UN is nothing but a rude joke.

 checkmark 

Laughed my ass off the other day watching Kofi on TV. . . "I am dusgusted that my warning to cease fire wasn't heeded". WTF? Who is he kidding. What's gonna happen Kofi - pass another reslution? Revoke their parking permit at the UNHQ?  sarcastic 

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
absolutely. A good general, and excellent in his "caretaker-function" in the 2nd term of Ronald Reagan, he scored badly as foreign minister. Mostly NOT his guilt of course, but the "fingerprint" of your boss always stays

One small correction: A EXCELLENT General, a SUPERIOR Soldier. The balance of your statement is accurate.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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par13del
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:20 pm

EurostarVA regarding reply 19, I have two takes on your election premise.

1. Israel annex all its captured territories, proclaims the residents Israeli
citizens and allows them to vote in Israeli elections.

2. Israel has no intention of keeping "all" its captured territories so therefore
does not make them Israeli citizens, hence no vote in Israeli elections.

Based on the complexity of this situation, I choose to deal with one issue at a time, something like not being able to walk and chew gum, this one is in regard to the not having the Palestinian's vote in Israeli elections.
 
Klaus
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 33):
No, my criticism is aimed at the UN because it does not work whatever the origin. I know you are quick to finger the US, but take one step back and try to analyze the UN results as a process.

Abolish the UNSC veto and you'll see a massive change in what the UN can accomplish. Veto blockades are the prime cause for the UN's failures to execute.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 35):
The UN did nothing to stop Hezbollah and its predecessors from firing rockets on Israel or making incursions south of the border in 28 years. And they can't do anything when the IDF response comes either... face it, the only time anyone hears about the UN in Lebanon is when a peace keeper dies or their offices get mobbed.

The lebanese UN deployment has been crippled from the start - again with the full knowledge of the UNSC members that that would basically make them useless in any active role.

The UN has consistently been used by some of its largest members to cripple from within and then bash from the outside.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
The Jews / Palestinians don't look alike

We do look alike, we are the same people. We all come from the same part of the world and share an ancient heritage!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
piercey
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
to start a blockade against an entire nation, to bomb airport, seaport and the road-network is NOT restraint, NOT AT ALL

uh, see six day war. Israel could have completely raped Lebanon by now if they so desired.
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
JJJ
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting Piercey (Reply 41):
uh, see six day war. Israel could have completely raped Lebanon by now if they so desired

And start an open war? Israel would never be the aggressor in such a war.
 
rammstein
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
Laughed my ass off the other day watching Kofi on TV. . . "I am dusgusted that my warning to cease fire wasn't heeded". WTF? Who is he kidding. What's gonna happen Kofi - pass another reslution? Revoke their parking permit at the UNHQ? sarcastic

There is nothing to laugh ass off: your US administration vetoes all the UN condemnations of Israeli attacks and any resolution that can somewhat harm Israel.

I might suggest to make official the accession of Israel to the USA as the new 51 st state, just to put more clear the rules of the game US administration is playing.
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
krisyyz
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:44 pm

I find it disgusting when I see countries like the US or Canada taking sides in this conflict. Yes Israel is a victim of terrorist, yes Lebanon is the victim of unproportional aggression.

Shame on you Hezbollah, shame on you Israel, shame on all of us for letting this go on.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 35):
The UN did nothing to stop Hezbollah and its predecessors from firing rockets on Israel or making incursions south of the border in 28 years.

it is obvious that mere "observers" are NOT what is required. The required thing is a seriously STRONG UN peacekeeping force. Such a force however was NOT launched as both your country and the USA realized that a REAL force might also keep the IDF in check. The protector of Israel, the USA, is in the security-council, and would have had the possibility to press for a really strong force, but never did !

Quoting Piercey (Reply 41):
uh, see six day war. Israel could have completely raped Lebanon by now if they so desired.

NOT to go into "total war" is NOT what I call "restraint". OK, David BenGurion even spoke about an Israel from the Nile to the Euprates. NOT to try it in your view possibly is "restraint" !
 
NAV20
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:01 pm

About the United Nations, it could only be set up with Stalin's agreement. His price was that the three major WW2 powers (USA, USSR, Britain) - should act as a 'Security Council' and each have veto power. Roosevelt added China (run by Chiang Kai Shek in those days, soon to become a Communist country) and Churchill added France. The only thing you can say abouut the UN is that it has lasted longer, and been generally more effective, than its predecessor, the League of Nations.

In my own 'angry young man' days we used to rail about the UN's failure to intervene as the Russian Army machine-gunned protesters off the streets in places like Hungary and Poland. The Russians used their veto mercilessly. It's said that the UN was only able to intervene in Korea because the Russian delegate noted the time of the meeting wrongly in his diary. The United States, in its turn, has habitually used its veto to block or reword any resolutions that would allow the UN to do anything useful about Israel.

However, in the last couple of days, I suspect that the Israel thing has moved on to a new level of absurdity. The US Secretary of State carefully briefed the press on her belief that a ceasefire would be negotiated within a week, and while her aeroplane was still in the air on the way back to Washington, the Israelis announced that there wasn't going to be any ceasefire.

I'm not sure what the consequences of that will be. I don't imagine Ms. Rice likes being made to look a complete fool in the whole world's press any more than other politicians do.

If I were her I'd tell Israel to do what it likes - but make sure that the USA immediately stops supplying ammunition and spare parts to them until they change their mind. But then I'm only an 'angry old man', she may think of much more ingenious ways to bring the Israeli dog to heel.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:04 pm

Falcon84 Posted Tue Aug 1 2006 15:58:56 UTC+2

Seems there's growing pressure on the Bush Administration to get Israel to agree to an immediate cease-fire.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/31/hagel.mideast/index.html

Wonder who Mr. Bush would name as the "Statesman" to go to the Middle East, if he gave in. And that's certainly a rebuke to Condi Rice if I ever heard one.
-
Just transferred this from a thread most presumably to get deleted.
-
Looks as if even senators of the Republican Party have some common sense, and oppose the madness of their "man in the White House"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Roosevelt added China (run by Chiang Kai Shek in those days, soon to become a Communist country)

but the SecurityCouncil seat for decades stayed with Taiwan, the "Republic of China" long after that change.
 
LY744
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Piercey (Reply 41):
uh, see six day war

Or even more to the point: the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.

Timeline:

June 3 - Assasination of Israeli ambassador to the UK (I'm not saying that's the cause of the war BTW, that's another thread)
June 6 - Israeli forces enter Lebanon
June 12 - Israeli forces reach outskirts of Beirut (war goes on for a couple more weeks though)

Hmm, 9 days. Olmert's been at it for about 20 already.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:12 pm

"Calls for 'a statesman'
He called on Bush to name "a statesman of global stature" as his personal envoy to the region. And he urged the administration to open direct talks with Hezbollah's backers, Iran and Syria, both of which Washington also accuses of meddling in Iraq.

"Our relationship with Israel is special and historic," he said. "But it need not and cannot be at the expense of our Arab and Muslim relationships. That is an irresponsible and dangerous false choice."


That sounds like a quite reasonable proposition -I've always advocated direct talks with Damascus and Tehran as the only meaningful tool to advance in this issue.Keeping them apart from any meetings or discussions- like in Rome- only makes things worse.
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