Derico
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Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:56 am

Unfortunately, I think it is getting to that point now. I read a very good editorial in a local paper, the professor that wrote it knows the Middle East quite well. He mentioned that in until now, even though the the US has been fairly or unfairly been the scapegoat of fundamental problems in muslim society, there was a secret 'yearning' from arabs and other muslims for their countries to be more like the US, at least in the economic sense and for some in social areas too. They liked US culture.

Now, after he returned to Argentina from a trip in Morocco, Egypt, Oman and Pakistan, he wrote he has never seen as much outright contempt and hatred for one country as there is in the Arab world for the United States now. They no longer want to watch US movies, they want to ban them. They no longer want to wear US clothes, they stone people that wear them. They no longer want to eat US fast food, they close the restaurants. The muslim world is no longer being hypocrites by saying they don't like the US but still admire their ways, now it's the former but the latter is gone.

The protests all over the Arab World against the US are rising rapidly. worldwide media is now picking up on this. The way things are going, he predicts, legions of arab young men will be lining up to bomb US cities.

Two generations of muslims from Morocco to Indonesia are being radicalized to hate the US and to another extent jews. He says that while removing Saddam Hussein might have been a noble goal, it was one of the greatest 'Realpolitik' miscalculations in world history. By invading Iraq, Iran now is the sole power in the region with no counterbalance, with the results you see today. And Iraq soon may fall to Iranian style radicalism. Lebanon a country on the verge of western-style democracy may fall to Hezbollah, the Palestinian territories have fallen to Hamas, and things may soon happen in Pakistan. Saudi Arabia has not fallen already because of oil prices, he says...

In essence, trying to impose democracy in the region has yielded the most radical and hate mongering generation of muslims, whom will live with that hatred for decades to come...
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CO7e7
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:59 am

Now that's gonna be a very interesting thread....

-Zaki
 
Derico
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:01 pm

That is why is called an 'editorial'. Opinion... Which can be countered by more opinion.
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Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):

You make your bed you lay in it. As Robert Fisk says all this does is make many Arabs determined to destroy the US rather than Israel. The blind US support of Israel is the most appalling undebated foreign policy in history.
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Derico
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 3):
The blind US support of Israel

But see this proffessor is smart enough not to hedge his conclusions simply on US support for Israel. He even argues such support could have still been applied without alienating most Arabs.

He argues historical issues like the meddling of the US in Iran, the US support for dictators of their liking in the muslim world, but most importantly he mentions a fundamental refusal of the US government to respect muslim culture, by demanding certain 'social' reforms that go against Islam.

He argues that it is this fundamental contempt to their culture that is the basis of this situation, even more so than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or other conflicts. Those just are the icing on the cake to justify the hatred. But what muslims view as a basic disrespect of the US of their culture, that is what drives it all.
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Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):



Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
But see this proffessor is smart enough not to hedge his conclusions simply on US support for Israel. He even argues such support could have still been applied without alienating most Arabs.

Thats not possible.----------------------
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CX747
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:49 pm

I for one do not have an issue with my countries unwaivering support of Israel. God knows that country and people have been to hell and back. As long as the USA backs Israel a large portion of the Middle East will not see eye to eye with the US. The day the US stops supporting Israel is the day that nation ceases to exist. If anyone believes in God, they also know that the day every nation turns against Israel is not a good one.

In my opinion, one of the massive problems in the Middle East is lack of knowledge regarding the United States, its positions and what its current and future policies will be. Now, before I start getting stoned, the same issues arise with Arab policies with a country bumpkin from Kentucky.

The United States isn't out to "change the world". Many believe that and others are willing to throw their support behind it because it is easier to join the rabbid mob than actually think for oneself. They are trying to bring freedom or democracy to certain places but are allowing that democracy to grow how each nation wants it to. Aftghanistan is a prime example. Afghanis elected a government THEY wanted. Things are never perfect and one could say that democracy was "forced" on them. They may be right, but the choice of government was alotted to them and thats a heck of difference than nut jobs running around in black cloaks beating women.

1: The United States went to war in Afghanistan because that country harbored individuals and a political group who had attacked it. Any other thoughts on why the US is in Afghanistan are full of holes. On Sept 10th, most Americans had no idea who Al Qaeda was and where Afghistan lay on a map.

2: The United States went to war in Iraq for several reasons. Saddam Hussein is the #1 reason. The man was/is a madman and jumped at any opporunity to hurt the US. This type of individual was going to be dealt with in a post 9/11 world. Saddam brought great instability to the region and was constantly trying to draw Israel into a war. Ousting him from power would hopefully allow things in the Middle East to cool. Say what you want about WMDs, oil etc but the major reason was the fact that the danger Saddam brought to each day would no longer be tolerated. Once again a choice of choosen government has been allowed. In my opinion it is ridiculous to think that the US is going to remove a dictator and then allow a Communist government to take control. OBVIOUSLY, the US is going to do what is in there best interests. Guidelines are set, but those guidelines only allow for a civilization to democratically choose its government and who it wants to run it.

3: Israel vs Anybody is going to make the Arab world nuts. From the safety of my home computer I will say that Hamas, Hezbollah etc ARE NUTS. They are fanatics that hate the Jews and show that hatred by strapping bombs to their bodies. Trying to deal with type of mentality is going to take some patience. No matter what the Jews do, they are going to be hated. The Arabs want the land the Jews have and the Jews aren't going to give it to them. No amount of peace accords is going to solve this issue. The Arabs hate the Jews..... accept it, understand it, embrace it because it has been going on for over 5,000 years.

As for the current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq causing a generation of Muslims to hate Americans, I'm not concerned. A generation of Muslims has been hating the US EVERY generation. The US has made mistakes during the war on terror that has not helped the situation. To say that the situation is the cause of hatred though is short-minded. I guess it is time for a little history lesson.......... In 1991, the United States went to Saudi Arabia at the Sultan's request to defend it from a possible Iraqi attack. The Iraqis had over run Kuwait (Muslim Nation) and were toying with the idea of attacking Saudi Arabia (Muslim Nation). The United States (Christian Nation) came to Saudi Arabia's (Muslim Nation) defense, pushed the Iraqis (Dictatorship) out of Kuwait (Muslim Nation) and set up a defense force for both MUSLIM NATIONS.

No good deed goes unpunished though and our punishment was 9/11. After a decade spent keeping Saddam Huseein in a box, the United States was attacked. Why was it attacked? Because it had troops in Muslim nations that were not wanted. Sooooooooo, due to the United States generiosity from 1991-2001, we were given a gift.

Defending Muslim nations, attacking Muslim nations or staying at home does not change the situation. We were not at war with any Muslim nations on 9/11 nor are we at war with them now. What we have attacked is a religious group who is out of its minds and hates America. As an American, I wish that the growing resentment of the Arab world could tranfer to Mexico, then maybe just maybe we wouldn't have thousands of people entering this horrible, cruel, Muslim hating country every day.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
rjpieces
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Two generations of muslims from Morocco to Indonesia are being radicalized to hate the US and to another extent jews

As if they were in love with Americans and Jews...ever in the past century.
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cfalk
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:57 pm

The article has some good points, but I think it takes things from the wrong direction. It's like saying England made an enemy of Germany by standing up to them over Poland in September 1939.

It's the fundementalist Arabs who have made themselves the enemy of western civilization, not the other way round.

[Edited 2006-08-05 08:58:22]
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Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
It's the Arabs who have made themselves the enemy of western civilization, not the other way round.



Politicians and diapers should both be changed regularly and for the same reason.

Enemy of some but not all western civilisation. Bit extreme arent we?
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BotsCom
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:30 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 3):
As Robert Fisk

I wouldn't believe a word he says, he is a old school leftist crackp*t gone native, the ones Brits make very well. If he had his way, Israel would be pushed into the sea.
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CX747
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:27 pm

I agree, it seems that only a small portion of rabid Muslims hate the US. The rest of the Middle East is like the rest of the world, they just want to go about living their lives in peace. Until these fundamentalists are stopped, that won't be allowed to happen.
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Queso
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Let's consider this from a little different angle, shall we....


"Have The Arabs Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The US?"

Why hasn't anyone asked that question?
 
halls120
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 12):
Let's consider this from a little different angle, shall we....


"Have The Arabs Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The US?"

Why hasn't anyone asked that question?

Because that would be politically incorrect, of course!  Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Derico
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 12):
Have The Arabs Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The US?"

Why hasn't anyone asked that question?

That would be a good point... Except that the Arabs did not become involved in internal US affairs since the mid 1940s, whereas the US has.
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halls120
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 14):
That would be a good point... Except that the Arabs did not become involved in internal US affairs since the mid 1940s, whereas the US has.

Why does the length of time matter? Based on your line of reasoning, radical islamist arabs can keep flying airplanes into US buildings for another 35 years before we can become outraged.....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 14):
... Except that the Arabs did not become involved in internal US affairs since the mid 1940s, whereas the US has.

Who knows, but if the US hadn't been there, the Soviets sure would have, and it would have been a heck of alot worse for the Arab populations under Moscows thumb.

Seems people forget about that.
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:47 am

It's all a matter of point of view.

I will concede the point that the arab world may be angry with the US, but what has the Arab world done to change that image.

Munich, Tehran 1979, Beirut, Achilli Largo, TWA, Hostages, Pan AM, WTC 93, USS Cole, WTC 2001, Barricks.

The Blame can be handed out in all directions for maltreatment and mistrust.

in the end I will argue most of it is based on Oil. If it wasn't for Oil, the Mideast would be relatively forgotten.

Peopel in the Arab world may hate the US, but in truth, what they hate is Oppression. Unfortunately most of the hate and opression they feel comes from the same leaders that Spurn the hate of the US.

In the end I am sure everyone on the face of the earth is pretty much the same. Everyone wants food, water, shelter, and to spend time amongst friends and family in a productive manor.

I would believe everyone would get along, if it wasn't for the asshole fundementalist leaders of every religion. It is truly amazing what people who promise something they can't see, can get people to do in the name of good.
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Derico
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Why does the length of time matter? Based on your line of reasoning, radical islamist arabs can keep flying airplanes into US buildings for another 35 years before we can become outraged.....

No, Americans had the right to respond to attack. But many Americans, I have heard this from them, really believe that they were attacked 'for no reason'. The US was attacked for a reason or several reasons, reasons that were valid to the terrorists who carried out the attacks, which unfortunately is all that matters to create such tragedy. It doesn't justify their actions for a minute, but to THEM there were reasons.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 16):
Who knows, but if the US hadn't been there, the Soviets sure would have, and it would have been a heck of alot worse for the Arab populations under Moscows thumb.

It's possible but hypothetical. The Soviets had a terrible time in Afghanistan. So if they were stuck there, did they really have a chance in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc?
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dtwclipper
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 18):
So if they were stuck there, did they really have a chance in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc?

It's possible but hypothetical.
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AirCop
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 6):
Saddam brought great instability to the region

Actually, Saddam brought some stability to the middle east, he was able to balance out the Iran threat. Now saying that, Saddam's flag didn't go up full mast, but America used Saddam when ever it worked for us.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 6):
The United States went to war in Iraq for several reasons. Saddam Hussein is the #1 reason

 confused  Darn it, I thought for sure President Bush address to the nation was all about WMD in Iraq.
If Saddam was the #1 reason for war, why not wipe out Castro, Chavez, Taylor, etc?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 3):
You make your bed you lay in it. As Robert Fisk says all this does is make many Arabs determined to destroy the US rather than Israel. The blind US support of Israel is the most appalling undebated foreign policy in history.

The same "you make your bed" analogy can be used for the Arabs, who, for 60 years have either openly or tacitly supported terrorism against Israel and the western democracies.

And there's no way the Arabs are going to destroy the U.S. They could only destroy Israel, but the irony is they'd destroy themselves in the process.

As for the most appaling foreign policy in history, I think that would be reserved for Nazi Germany's war on the Soviet Union.

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
But see this proffessor is smart enough not to hedge his conclusions simply on US support for Israel. He even argues such support could have still been applied without alienating most Arabs.

Then he's an idiot. Israel is THE REASON why the Arabs hate the U.S. the way they do. And the fact that an overwhelming majority of the Arabs-and their hangers' on around the world, as we see here on Anet, still cannot accept Israel's existence, and still want them destroyed is testeament to that fact.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 6):
I for one do not have an issue with my countries unwaivering support of Israel.

Nor do I. You stand by your friends. You don't abandon them because there are ignorant people in the world who want them destroyed.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
It's like saying England made an enemy of Germany by standing up to them over Poland in September 1939.

Exactly. Unfortunately, enough on here can't see that.

Quoting Queso (Reply 12):
"Have The Arabs Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The US?"

Why hasn't anyone asked that question?

That's the way I see it, and what they've supported for 60 years is adding up and I still think the day is coming where the Arab world will rue the day they have supported the ways of terrorism.

Quoting Derico (Reply 14):
That would be a good point... Except that the Arabs did not become involved in internal US affairs since the mid 1940s, whereas the US has.

Oh yeah? What do you call 9/11? A picnic?
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halls120
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
As for the most appaling foreign policy in history, I think that would be reserved for Nazi Germany's war on the Soviet Union.

A close second being Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. They could have kept their empire intact for a long time if they had avoided attacking the US.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MigFan
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 6):
The Arabs hate the Jews

That is the unfortunate truth. The extremist muslim contingent will not be satisfied until Israel is no more, and it's Jewish holy sites destroyed. America is thought as the root of all evil that supports Israel. Islamic hate is based on ignorance and cowardice.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
Until these fundamentalists are stopped, that won't be allowed to happen.

Yeah, some of these crackpots are running things over there...

Quoting Queso (Reply 12):
"Have The Arabs Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The US?"

Why hasn't anyone asked that question?

The average US opinion, I cannot account for, but I know my opinion toward islamic extremists. They are cowards fighting a system that they do not understand, by someone perpetuating a clouded view. US culture is one of the most open-minded in the world, there is a place for everyone in the US. Americans can see islam as a suspicious threat against there ideals. Islamic extremist have one enemy I can count here, me...

/M
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CX747
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 18):
No, Americans had the right to respond to attack. But many Americans, I have heard this from them, really believe that they were attacked 'for no reason'. The US was attacked for a reason or several reasons, reasons that were valid to the terrorists who carried out the attacks, which unfortunately is all that matters to create such tragedy. It doesn't justify their actions for a minute, but to THEM there were reasons.

This type of logic doesn't work in my opinion. Valid thoughts and beliefs of mentally challenged individuals are not reality. Until the opression that is rampant in the Middle East is stopped, this type of blind rage will continue.

If one good thing can come of this conflict it is the fact that through the bloodshed, two civilizations are learing more and more about one another. Having Americans front and center is bringing the "Infidel" to the opressed front door. For every young terrorist in the making, there are 10 bright young children learning that an American soldier is not someone to hate.
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texdravid
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:31 am

The real enemy of the Arab countries is corrupt governments, lack of education and jobs, and overwhelming stifling religiosity.

Put those three things together, and you have young males with no job, no wealth, no education, with seething jealously and anger, that is easily stoked by corrupt governments and evil religious men seeking to channel this anger towards the boogeymen of Israel and the U.S.

It's never going to change in our lifetimes. One way or another, we in the west need to withdraw from this area, find other ways to fuel our thirsty economic system other than oil, and let this region rot and stew in its own misery.
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Mir
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 25):
The real enemy of the Arab countries is corrupt governments, lack of education and jobs, and overwhelming stifling religiosity.

 checkmark  Fortunately, these problems can be addressed (the second more easily than the first or third, but even that would have a significant effect). The US might not be very popular among the Arab world at the moment, but such bad feelings need not (and will not, in my mind) be eternal. We may never be best buddies, but I think eternal hatred goes a bit too far.

-Mir
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CX747
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:50 am

I believe that the US needs to continue its current operations. Bringing democracy (Of an Arabian kind) to the Middle East is only going to help the Western World's cause. Increased education, women voting and an elected government are all steps in the right direction.
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rjpieces
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Israel is THE REASON why the Arabs hate the U.S. the way they do.

Sometimes I wonder...France and other European countries don't have much higher approval ratings than the United States amongst Arabs yet most of Europe is cool to Israel. Heck, Denmark probably has high ratings for Arab hatred...
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Derico
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 27):
Increased education, women voting and an elected government are all steps in the right direction.

'

And that is exactly where you are going wrong.

Your thoughts may be noble, but have you ever considered that they don't want women equality and many of those other things? Why is it so hard for western people to place themselves in the spot of muslim culture?

Just imagine if Europe tried to impose no death penalty and gay marriage on the United States. Most people in the US would be enraged, even many who would favor such, because it is being imposed from outside.

That is exactly how it is in the Middle East.
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casinterest
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 30):
but have you ever considered that they don't want women equality

Right here is the problem.

They don't want equality for women. Yet Women represent more than half the population.

Once the women figure this out..... oh sh.....!!!!!!
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Falcon84
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 27):
I believe that the US needs to continue its current operations. Bringing democracy (Of an Arabian kind) to the Middle East is only going to help the Western World's cause.

You mean, like what we've done in Iraq? Ah, I get it.

And you want MORE of that? God help the nation....
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Mir
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 27):
I believe that the US needs to continue its current operations. Bringing democracy (Of an Arabian kind) to the Middle East is only going to help the Western World's cause. Increased education, women voting and an elected government are all steps in the right direction.

As much as I'd like to see democracies springing up all over the Middle East, it is, as far as I'm concerned, downright stupid to expect that the US (or even a coalition of Western nations) can bring about that change. As Iraq has clearly proven, the Arab world is not particularly receptive to a US occupation (which is what they see it as, regardless of whether we're there to help or not). Democracy has to be built from within. I have faith that it eventually will come, but it's going to take time, and rushing it does not make things better at all.

-Mir
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NAV20
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:02 pm

I wish people would stop referring to 'Arabs' as if it was a nationality. The very thread title refers to 'the US', to be consistent surely it should have said 'the Caucasians'?

There are many nations with a high proportion of Arabs living in them. Some still have good relations with the USA, others don't.

On the specific matter of 9/11, a high proportion of the assailants, as far as can be ascertained, were Saudi-Arabian. There is evidence that several of them were in receipt of direct financial support from Saudi-Arabia, too.

But many Americans still place revenge for 9/11 high on their list of reasons for supporting the attack on Iraq. Why? None of the hijackers was Iraqi, and there was no evidence that any of them had even visited the place.

In the 9/11 context, attacking Iraq made no sense at all. Indeed, attacking Saudia wouldn't have made much more sense. After the Oklahoma City bombing, did the President order reprisals on New York State for 'harbouring' Timothy McVeigh for all those years?
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Falcon84
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 34):
I wish people would stop referring to 'Arabs' as if it was a nationality.

They're a race, Sherlock. What part of that don't you get?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 34):
On the specific matter of 9/11, a high proportion of the assailants, as far as can be ascertained, were Saudi-Arabian.

And they're Arabs, right? So what the heck is your beef?
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NAV20
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:49 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
They're a race, Sherlock. What part of that don't you get?

So you're advocating a race war?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
So what the heck is your beef?

It WOULD help the discussion along if you made a point of reading posts before you reply to them, Falcon.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
TERRA
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:41 pm

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 25):
and you have young males with no job, no wealth, no education, with seething jealously and anger,

I thought you were talking about Americans for a minute, sorry my mistake!!!

Oh and i wish people would stop referring to this jealousy "Arabs" have towards the US or West in general. It doesn't exist. Hatred for the immoral values yes, jealousy no.

And why does it mean so much to Americans to force democracy (or the American way) upon other nations? I'm just interested to know.
 
cfalk
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting TERRA (Reply 37):
Oh and i wish people would stop referring to this jealousy "Arabs" have towards the US or West in general. It doesn't exist. Hatred for the immoral values yes, jealousy no.

The hatred is the problem. I'm glad you admit it. Arab xenophobia is the root cause of a huge share of the world's problems today. And people in authority whip it up. I've heard modern-day muslim clerics on Iranian TV explaining how Jews make Massa bread with the blood of Arabs, that it is a requirement. I've heard on Bahraini TV an analyst tell the audience about the murder in the UK of an old muslim woman, where the murderers drank her blood. He goes on to say how such vampirism is very common in the west. The list of such Arab hate-propaganda is endless.

We have no such tales about Arabs, so it is clear that the hatred is one-sided here. I say it is pure xenophobia - the fear of anything that is different, and it is the halmark of uncivilized society. A core tenent of civilization is the ability to live together with different people.

Quoting TERRA (Reply 37):
And why does it mean so much to Americans to force democracy (or the American way) upon other nations? I'm just interested to know.

If those other nations would leave the US alone, they would do the same. It is only because the Arab world insists on being a giant hemerroid to the rest of the world that the problem needs treatment. If Arabs would deal with their xenophobic tendencies themselves, there would be no problem, but instead they insist on blaming everyone except themselves.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
NAV20
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:47 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
If those other nations would leave the US alone

Which nations do you mean, Cfalk? And what have they done to the US recently?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cfalk
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:41 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 39):
Which nations do you mean, Cfalk? And what have they done to the US recently?

Where should we begin?

August 1982: Honolulu, Hawaii. Pan Am airplane. Bomb 1 killed, several injured - Palestinian terrorist Mohammad Rashid

April 1983: Beirut, U.S. Embassy Suicide car bomb 63 killed - Radical Shiite Muslim group takes credit

October 1983: Beirut, U.S. Marine barracks Bomb 241 killed - Lebanese Party of God faction

December 1983: Kuwait City, U.S. Embassy Suicide truck bomb Six killed; dozens injured - 17 pro-Iranian terrorists convicted

September 1984: Beirut, U.S. embassy Suicide car bomb 16 killed - Islamic Jihad claims responsibility

June 1985: TWA flight 847 Hijacking to Beirut One killed - Lebanese Party of God faction

August 1985, Germany, American base in Frankfurt car bomb Two killed, 20 injured

October 1985: Egyptian coast, Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro Hostage situation One killed - Palestine Liberation Front

November 1985: Egypt Air flight 648 Hijacking to Malta 60 killed - Abu Nidal's Arab Revolutionary Command

December 1985: Rome and Vienna Airport attacks at U.S. and Israeli airport check-in desks 16 killed

April 1986: West Berlin night club Bomb Three killed, 150 injured - A Libyan diplomat, two Palestinians and two Germans

April 1986: Rome to Athens TWA flight Bomb Four killed - Mohammed Rashid, Palestinian terrorist, members of Iraqi backed May 15 organization

February 1988: Southern Lebanon Kidnapping One U.S. Marine executed - Lebanese Party of God

December 1988: Lockerbie, Scotland, Pan Am flight 103 Bomb 270 killed - Libyan intelligence agents

Feb 26 1993: USA, NYC, World Trade Center A bomb planted in an underground car parked at the World Trade Center 6 killed, 1000 injured - Four Muslim fundamentalists are convicted of conspiracy and other charges related to the bombing, thought to have been ordered by Saudi terror master Osama bin Laden. In 1998, the so-called mastermind, Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, is convicted and sentenced to life plus 240 years in prison.

March 1995: Karachi, Pakistan, U.S. Consulate Murder Two American diplomats killed - Possible retaliation for World Trade Center bombing conviction

November 1995: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, U.S. military headquarters Bomb Seven killed - Four anti-royal Saudi Arabian dissidents, possible connections to Party of God an Iran; beheaded in Saudi Arabia

June 1996: Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, Khobar Towers Truck bomb 19 U.S. airmen killed

November 1997: Karachi, Pakistan Murder of American oil-company employees Five killed - Possible revenge for U.S. conviction of Pakistani for murders of two CIA agents

June 1998: Lebanon, U.S. Embassy Rocket-propelled grenades No injuries

August 1998: Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, U.S. embassies Simultaneous bombings 263 killed, 5000 injured - Osama bin Laden, Saudi financier

October 2000: The Destroyer USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden Bomb blast 17 killed

September 11, 2001: USA, NYC, World Trade Center, Pentagon, Pensylvania Airplane crashes Over 6000 killed, thousands injured - Osama Bin Laden with the help of the Taliban and international cells and states.


and so on...

(src: http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm#70)
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
NAV20
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:46 pm

I said 'recently,' Cfalk. So nothing since 2001? Looks like they HAVE been leaving the USA alone then? And you didn't say which 'nations' were responsible?

[Edited 2006-08-06 13:53:25]
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cfalk
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
I said 'recently,' Cfalk. So nothing since 2001? Looks like they HAVE been leaving the USA alone then?

Oh, come on, NAV, you're stretching. You're saying that the terrorists decided to stop bugging the US after September 11th? The reasons the US has not been directly hit lately are that 1) US security has been significantly beefed up, and 2) that most of the terrorists are now in Iraq, causing American deaths every week. And most impressively, most of their victims are fellow Muslims. I wonder what Allah thinks about that.

There is a documentary that recently was released, called "Obsession" Try to find it on a BitTorrent server. Learn what is being taught in the mosques and broadcast over the air in the muslim world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessi...cal_Islam%27s_War_Against_the_West
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
NAV20
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:14 pm

Cfalk, I'm just asking for clarification of what you said, which was:-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
If those other nations would leave the US alone

In fact, there have been no recent terrorist events involving the USA, and there is no evidence whatever that any 'nations' were involved in the earlier incidents you mention (except Libya in Lockerbie and, as I mentioned before, the possibility that Saudi-Arabia had some involvement in 9/11).

So I do wonder how you can possibly connect such things in your mind with what is going on in Lebanon at the present time.

You do rather seem mentally to be living out the old joke about the guy who dropped a gold coin in a dark alley, and decided to look for it out on the street where there was more light.  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cfalk
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:34 pm

NAV, if you can't see the connection between Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc., I can't really help you. The whole mess is a web of intrigue fueled by religious zealotry and xenophobia.
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par13del
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:47 pm

Something else I noticied, have not seen an explanation which anyone cared to put into words.

The "Arab World" usually speaks with one voice when addressing concerns about Israel's occupation, the "Muslim World" even more so. An earlier post in this thread mentioned that the US invasion of Iraq removed a counter balance to Iran in the region.

Here's my question, if the Arab and Muslim world can be united against Israel and at times the US, why do they have so much trouble with each other?
In Iraq, they are blowing each other up on a daily basis, and they cannot use the excuse that there were US troops in the vicinity.
In Saudi Arabia, the Whabi Religion is "rumoured" to be teaching anti Western or US hatred in schools, if this true, are they not sowing the seeds of their own malcontent? These students will certainely resent any western ties that their country has.
The same can also be said of schools in Hamas regions of the West Bank and Gaza.
 
Klaus
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 45):
Here's my question, if the Arab and Muslim world can be united against Israel and at times the US, why do they have so much trouble with each other?

Because only Israel is a sufficiently extreme enemy to have them agree.

"The muslim world" is not any more uniform than "christian" Europe once was; Probably much less than that, in fact.
 
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par13del
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:24 pm

Klaus if I relate that premise to Iraq, are you saying the sectarian violence in Iraq is not extreme? Last week how high was the death toll, over 1,000. What does Israel have to do with that?
We never hear any thing about the "Christian" world being united against anything, Muslims and Arab Nations seem to give a "united" front at least in terms of saying the Arab or Muslim world, so hence my question of them getting along.
I would have hoped that a silver lining in the dark cloud of the current Israel / Lebanon crisis would have caused the Iraq's to focus on that other than killing themselves. Does fly in the face of the notion of a united front against Israel,
at least in terms of priority.
 
Klaus
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 47):
Klaus if I relate that premise to Iraq, are you saying the sectarian violence in Iraq is not extreme?

If there is a common enemy in Iraq, it is the USA. They have "more urgent" priorities than dealing with Israel there.  crazy 

Quoting Par13del (Reply 47):
We never hear any thing about the "Christian" world being united against anything

Because the "christian world" has been mostly secularized against the resistance of the churches, leading to the separation of church and state. Most "muslim" countries are much more archaic than that, being culturally and socially behind by many centuries.
 
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par13del
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:44 pm

Klaus
"If there is a common enemy in Iraq, it is the USA. They have "more urgent" priorities than dealing with Israel there."

In my earlier post I mentioned that Iraqi's are killing Iraqi's and the excuse of US troops being in the vicinity is not valid.

By killing each other in sectarian violence, they are fighting the American?

Well, I don't understand that logic, but I'll leave it at that.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Has The US Now Made An Eternal Enemy In The Arabs?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting TERRA (Reply 37):
Hatred for the immoral values yes, jealousy no.

And who are they-or you-to tell US how to live, may I ask? Are you saying we should change because the Arabs and Islamofascists don't like the way we live. I could tell you and them where to stick that one, good buddy.

We could tell you we hate them for their "immoral values" that embrace murder and death, couldn't I.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here. We are who we are, and, just as we should not force others to change, ala Iraq, nor should we be forced to change either. But that's what these lunatics want.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 39):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
If those other nations would leave the US alone

Which nations do you mean, Cfalk? And what have they done to the US recently?



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):

I guess the evidence is a little overwhelming, isn't it?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
I said 'recently,' Cfalk. So nothing since 2001? Looks like they HAVE been leaving the USA alone then? And you didn't say which 'nations' were responsible?

And now you're trying to wiggle your way around the truth.

Amazing.
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