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n229nw
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Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:55 pm

Just brilliant, more evidence of just how much we have "liberated" Iraq with this horrible war...good thing we went in and killed 100,000 people and sent ourselves billions of dollars into debt for this!

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1838222,00.html

PS: Oh and remember, when Saddam killed people, they were victims according to George Bush, and mandated the war. But when the US kills many of the SAME people in Iraq, they are "terrorists," so it's all good...even if it leads to civil war and religious extremists taking over the country. Whoopie!
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AeroWesty
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:06 am

:: cue the hoardes who've tried to say it's okay to be gay in the mideast "if you keep to yourself" because half the men are humping each other anyway ::
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting N229NW (Thread starter):
when Saddam killed people, they were victims



Quoting N229NW (Thread starter):
But when the US kills many of the SAME people

Here we have it folks!!! American soldiers are not only blood thirsty killers, who kill without provocation! Now we're digging up the dead and killing them twice!

N229NW, I know you didn't mean it sound like it, but you're saying Americans are killing the SAME people Saddam killed a few years back? If they're dead already, how can we kill them again?


Oh and PS:

You totally destroyed this worth while topic with your flame-bait, nonconstructive, total  redflag , anti-war/anti-american rant. Spare us from this argument, it's been made on A.Net HUNDREDS of times and it's very old. Stick to your subject.

-UH60
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CO7e7
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:25 am

This is very sad.... i am speechless!

-Zaki
 
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n229nw
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Here we have it folks!!! American soldiers are not only blood thirsty killers, who kill without provocation! Now we're digging up the dead and killing them twice!

N229NW, I know you didn't mean it sound like it, but you're saying Americans are killing the SAME people Saddam killed a few years back? If they're dead already, how can we kill them again?

Oh please, if you can't figure out what I meant, then you are being deliberately dense. I mean the same KIND of people. In other words, while Saddam was a horrid butcher, most of his victims were Islamist groups, many of the same groups that the US is now fighting. It makes the whole retroactive justification for the war as "liberation" ridiculous.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Oh and PS:

You totally destroyed this worth while topic with your flame-bait, nonconstructive, total redflag , anti-war/anti-american rant. Spare us from this argument, it's been made on A.Net HUNDREDS of times and it's very old. Stick to your subject.

Maybe...to me the subjects are related. This article is one symptom of the failure of this war as a whole, on practical and moral grounds.

PS: I hope there is a way out of this mess and you and other soldiers can come home safe and soon!

[Edited 2006-08-06 17:34:17]
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dtwclipper
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
anti-war/anti-american rant.

Just because one is anti-war, does not make one a traitor to America!
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Klaus
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Now we're digging up the dead and killing them twice!

Well, not exactly...
...some of the same people... can in fact mean different individuals each time.

The point, however, can not be about what the US soldiers on the ground are doing with the orders they've received from above, but about what predictable effect those orders had to have.

The religious extremists have been coddled by the US viceroy and the US administration for years after going overboard on eradicating many of the structures of the secular society inherited from Saddam, so it's no wonder they're now trying to convert Iraq into a religion-based country styled after their respective role models (Iran or Saudi Arabia, for instance).

It doesn't just affect gays, but also women or religious minorities.

The question is what we in the west can actually do under the circumstances, with the US troops being the primary force in place but being in a tight spot anyway. It looks grim. Sad
 
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 4):
I mean the same KIND of people.

I knew what you were saying... I was just giving you a hard time.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
Just because one is anti-war, does not make one a traitor to America!

Well... show me where I said that. ...You're going to be hard pressed. Good luck.

The truth is, I don't care whether if you're anti-war. It's your right to believe this war was unjust/based on lies/only done for the sake of oil/a huge conspiracy involving aliens and Barry Manilow/blah blah blah. I mean... you're dead wrong... and have no idea what it is REALLY like over here... but it's still your right to believe it. And being against the war doesn't mean you're against America.

HOWEVER, when you spout off the same old dried up arguments of:

Quoting N229NW (Thread starter):
But when the US kills many of the SAME people in Iraq

It's grows old. Americans are killers! Americans are brutalizing the Iraqi people! Ugh, it's enough to give me a headache. THAT is the anti-American  redflag  that I am speaking about. I'm so sick of listening to the America=bad arguments, and I am so sick of people using EVERY opportunity to use BAD news as GOOD news for their political agendas.

Gay Iraqis are being hunted down like animals = America's fault!  banghead 

As though, under Saddam, Iraq was some gay winter resort.  Yeah sure

-UH60
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dtwclipper
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 7):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
Just because one is anti-war, does not make one a traitor to America!

Well... show me where I said that. ...You're going to be hard pressed. Good luck

Oh, right here, or did I mis-understand you?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
with your flame-bait, nonconstructive, total , anti-war/anti-american rant.
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TWFirst
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
Just because one is anti-war, does not make one a traitor to America!

AMEN!!!.... In FACT, being against THIS "war" is about being PRO-American and about what our values are SUPPOSED to be.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):

Negative.

You obviously didn't read the rest of the post... and it wasn't even that long of a post! Here, I will try and break it down to even a lower common denominator for you:

I never equated anti-war as being anti-American. I equated the way some, just as N229NW, use bad news in Iraq as yet another opportunity to link it to how it's some how America's fault. Those types of "United States can do no right" arguments are total BS. And it happens frequently on A.net... people will take a story (such as one about how gay Iraqis are being hunted down) and find ANY way to use it to bash America.

The thing is Dtw, you can be against the war and argue your case intelligently - such as Klaus - or you can keep throwing the same old tantrum routine about how bad America is, and how wrong the war is. Either way, it has nothing to do with whether you're pro or con - it's how you present your case.

Did I make myself clear?

-UH60
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dtwclipper
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:38 am

-UH60,

I read your post, thank you very much.

Sure it is the "same old tantrum routine", but not about "how bad America" is, but rather the mistake that we've made (the emphasis on "we've).

Jeremy
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AGM100
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting N229NW (Thread starter):
"liberated"

Liberated is the correct word . However like in most of the States over thier the political system is once again hijacked OR threatened by the "Army of god".

IMHO , this just proves once again that the Jihadist are so far to the extreme that their eventual complete discredit is well underway. Although this was not a goal stated by the administration for going to war, the establishment of a free Iraq was. A PR side effect that the "insurgency" has caused is the appearance of a alignment with Al-Quada/Islamic Jihad etc. Although the insurgency may not have exactly the same goal, the tactics being used are equated to the likes of OBL.

The insurgency in Iraq may be fighting against "occupation" but are clearly more aligned with the enemies of all free people.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:22 am

Now that we've established it's not un-American to be against the war (or I think that's what's been established), may we get back to the famous gay winter resort of Iraq?
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searpqx
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
may we get back to the famous gay winter resort of Iraq?

In all honesty Westy, what's to get back to? It doesn't matter whether you are for or against the war, the fact remains that the current situation has allowed extremists groups to flourish, and they are now targeting and killing various groups that don't meet their 'approval'. The fact that gays are caught up in it may make it more personal for you and I, but its just a symptom of the larger tragedy.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 14):
The fact that gays are caught up in it may make it more personal for you and I, but its just a symptom of the larger tragedy.

It is, and totally unfortunate. I'd like to hear from the likes of ME AVN FAN, etc., who droned on for months in other threads about how easy life is for gays in the middle east mainly due there being, yes, you're reading this right, a higher percentage of gay male sexual activity in the mideast than other regions of the world.

I questioned it then, and I question it now. I'd like to see some explanations for the behavior of the Iraqi death squads targeting gays in this light.
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searpqx
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
I questioned it then, and I question it now. I'd like to see some explanations for the behavior of the Iraqi death squads targeting gays in this light.

I'm quite sure it'll be explained to us poor infidels that its their own fault because they weren't "behaving normal" (as defined by our various Muslim posters) or worse, they were being - "loud" (GASP!).
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 16):
"behaving normal"

Does this rule out getting any sex tales? I want the sex tales!  silly 
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
may we get back to the famous gay winter resort of Iraq?

And it's only a winter resort, because the summer months are brutal. Melt that drag make-up right off their faces. ... Well I dunno... do Iraqi drag queens wear make-up? Even the most stylish of burkas, doesn't show enough face to make it worth it!

But hey, we already established there wasn't any gays in Iraq during the rule of Saddam. Remember this photo?:


-UH60
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AeroWesty
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
But hey, we already established there wasn't any gays in Iraq during the rule of Saddam. Remember this photo?:

A marble toilet and bidet is gay now? I never got the memo, dammit.
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n229nw
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
I never equated anti-war as being anti-American. I equated the way some, just as N229NW, use bad news in Iraq as yet another opportunity to link it to how it's some how America's fault. Those types of "United States can do no right" arguments are total BS. And it happens frequently on A.net... people will take a story (such as one about how gay Iraqis are being hunted down) and find ANY way to use it to bash America.

Sure there are some things people try to blame on America that aren't America's fault. But sorry, this one is our fault. Any analyst or person who really understood the region could have told you before the war that invading Iraq would have had these results. But Bush and his neo-con cold-war-era-dinosaur cronies thought they knew better than all the historians and all the diplomats and politicians in the rest of the world, and they started this war. So I'm ever so sorry if it "gives you a headache"--God forbid--but sometimes a county has to acknowlegde that it has f**ked up.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
Liberated is the correct word . However like in most of the States over thier the political system is once again hijacked OR threatened by the "Army of god".

Then they were never friggin liberated were they??? Again, people who understood Iraq saw this coming a mile away. So if you topple one government when it is obvious in advance that that will allow feuding and extremist religious groups to take power, and you have no game plan for how to prevent that, seems to me you haven't "liberated" anyone, you've only put a lot of blood on your hands to achieve a change from a brutal dictatorship to a brutal and unstable theocracy...
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UAXDXer
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:29 am

Hardline Islamic insurgent groups in Iraq are targeting a new type of victim with the full protection of Iraqi law, The Observer can reveal. The country is seeing a sudden escalation of brutal attacks on what are being called the 'immorals' - homosexual men and children as young as 11 who have been forced into same-sex prostitution.
There is growing evidence that Shia militias have been killing men suspected of being gay and children who have been sold to criminal gangs to be sexually abused. The threat has led to a rapid increase in the numbers of Iraqi homosexuals now seeking asylum in the UK because it has become impossible for them to live safely in their own country.

Ali Hili runs the Iraqi LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) group out of London. He used to have 40 volunteers in Iraq but says after recent raids by militia in Najaf, Karbala and Basra he has lost contact with half of them. They move to different safe houses to protect their identities, but their work is incredibly dangerous.

Eleven-year-old Ameer Hasoon al-Hasani was kidnapped by policemen from the front of his house last month. He was known in his district to have been forced into prostitution. His father Hassan told me he searched for his son for three days after his abduction, then found him, shot in the head. A copy of the death certificate confirms the cause of death.

Homosexuality is seen as so immoral that it qualifies as an 'honour killing' to murder someone who is gay - and the perpetrator can escape punishment. Section 111 of Iraq's penal code lays out protections for murder when people are acting against Islam.

'The government will do nothing to tackle this issue. It's really desperate when people get to the stage they're trading their children for money. They have no alternatives because there are no jobs,' Hili says.

Graphic photos obtained from Baghdad sources too frightened to identify themselves as having known a gay man, and seen by the Observer, show other gay Iraqis who have been executed. One shows two men, suspected of having a relationship, blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs - guns at the ready behind their heads - awaiting execution. Another picture captured on a mobile phone shows a gay man being beaten to death. Yet another shows a corpse being dragged through the streets after his execution.

One photograph is of the mutilated, burnt body of 38-year-old Karar Oda from Sadr City. He was kidnapped by the Badr Brigade in mid-June. They work with the Ministry of Interior and are the informal armed wing of the Supreme Council of Islamic Revolution in Iraq, who make up the largest Shia bloc in the Iraq parliament. Oda's family were given an arrest warrant signed by the Ministry of Interior which said their son deserved to be arrested and killed for immorality as a homosexual. His body was found ten days later.

Dr Haider Jaber is currently seeking asylum in the UK after fleeing Iraq in 2004. He says the abuse started to escalate in his neighbourhood after the invasion. One night, walking home from work, he was surrounded by five men, who told him he had to become a heterosexual Muslim. He says they abused him for wearing jeans and a T-shirt with English writing, and told him he should adopt traditional robes. As a crowd gathered to watch, he was then beaten and kicked to the ground.

The threats continued. Armed militiamen broke into his family home and then his workplace looking for him. Jaber finally left the country in April. His partner, Ali. was not so lucky. Jaber learned of his Ali's murder a few days after leaving Iraq. 'They didn't send the body to the family to have a grave or a flower garden. They said he didn't deserve it because he was an animal,' he said.

Ibaa Alawi has also fled Iraq. A former employee at the British embassy in Baghdad, Alawi met Tony Blair on one of his surprise visits to Iraq. He said Blair was concerned about the safety of the Iraqis working there and praised their bravery. 'Tony Blair said the British government was thankful for our efforts and knew we were putting our lives at risk working for the British embassy in Baghdad.'

Alawi is upset the same government is not willing to help him out. He believes the Home Office will refuse him asylum because it would have to face up to the level of chaos in Iraq, and how much influence is being waged by radical Islamists - and face the fact that, for some, there is still no freedom in Iraq.



Please tell me how this is Bush's fault? Did you actually think their would be gay pride parades thru the streets of Bagdad once Sadam was out of power?
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AGM100
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 20):
seems to me you haven't "liberated" anyone, you've only put a lot of blood on your hands to achieve a change from a brutal dictatorship to a brutal and unstable theocracy...

The war on terror is about ideas , The US has given a chance to the Iraqi people to form any government they choose. The struggle their now is about how that government will look and how it will serve the people of Iraq. The insurgency is showing that their only goal is to establish something that deprives the people of any freedom. In addition to that , their only "policy" is to kill people until they get it.

The million dollar question is will the freehold recognize the actions of the insurgency for what it is. Or will the jealousy and hatred of the US give excuse to any extreme measure used by them.

If in fact a "Brutal Theocracy" is what the insuregency wishes to establish , then why not support what the US is trying to do ?
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Doona
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
Remember this photo?

I'm sorry, sweety, but no self-respecting gay man would ever have such a bathroom. Too loud and colourful. Unless he's an American, of course...  duck 
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Klaus
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 21):
Please tell me how this is Bush's fault?

Despite warnings from abroad and from american experts, the Bush administration and their occupation administration in Iraq insisted on dismantling the secular defense mechanisms of iraqi society because they were perceived as associated with Saddam (which was only partially true) and elevated the importance of the religious leaders instead. It was a clear error in judgment in a very long string of related ones.

What we're watching today are the consequences of those decisions, the last remnants of secular society collapsing. Great job - the evangelicals are probably thrilled!  gnasher 
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
Despite warnings from abroad and from american experts, the Bush administration and their occupation administration in Iraq insisted on dismantling the secular defense mechanisms of iraqi society because they were perceived as associated with Saddam (which was only partially true) and elevated the importance of the religious leaders instead

Ok... so you are telling me that the gays had much more rights on the Sadam regime!?!?!  Yeah sure
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n229nw
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
The war on terror is about ideas , The US has given a chance to the Iraqi people to form any government they choose. The struggle their now is about how that government will look and how it will serve the people of Iraq. The insurgency is showing that their only goal is to establish something that deprives the people of any freedom. In addition to that , their only "policy" is to kill people until they get it.

The million dollar question is will the freehold recognize the actions of the insurgency for what it is. Or will the jealousy and hatred of the US give excuse to any extreme measure used by them.

If in fact a "Brutal Theocracy" is what the insuregency wishes to establish , then why not support what the US is trying to do ?

Yes, once again the old "they 'deserved' to be liberated by having their infrascructure and security destroyed and having countless civilian deaths, and now they 'deserve' the chaotic result because they are just warring primitives" argument. If is so condescending it makes me want to scream.

OK I'll spell this out. Now that the US is there, I hope we can help Iraqis establish a just and peaceful government (in fact we have little choice), though I think our chances are nearly nil. However, the issue is why we are there in the first place. We have put ourselves in the position of destroying what was a stable and contained sovereign country and making ourselves responsible for a powder-keg of different groups that hate us in different ways.

Iraq may indeed have been "broken" beforehand, but we should have had the intelligence, humility, and understanding to know we couldn't fix it, could in fact only break it more. We have broken it more and we are (rightly) blamed for doing so, and furthermore we have done so in contravention of international law and diplomatic frameworks. We have driven the bus into the ditch (to quote Barack Obama) and now it is going to be really hard to get it back out.

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 25):
Ok... so you are telling me that the gays had much more rights on the Sadam regime!?!?! Yeah sure

Probably not, but the point is how ridiculous the claim is that all of the deaths in this war, and all of the money spent, have brought "freedom" and "democracy" to Iraq.
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UAXDXer
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 26):
Probably not, but the point is how ridiculous the claim is that all of the deaths in this war, and all of the money spent, have brought "freedom" and "democracy" to Iraq.

You would have to be a complete fool to say things are perfect over in Iraq right now. That being said, I also think you would be nuts to say that the Iraqis are not better off post Sadam. Look how long it took for women to have the rights that they have today in our own country... not to mention how long it took the blacks.

All I am saying is that their is so much more potential in Iraq than there was just a couple of years ago. Is it going to be easy? Is going to be over night? No! Is it worth all the lives lost? Don't know yet... ask the Iraqis in 10 - 20 years.

[Edited 2006-08-07 00:17:22]
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n229nw
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 27):
All I am saying is that their is so much more potential in Iraq than there was just a couple of years ago. Is it going to be easy? Is going to be over night? No! Is it worth all the lives lost? Don't know yet... ask the Iraqis in 10 - 20 years.

I honestly hope you are right and I am wrong.
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Klaus
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 25):
Ok... so you are telling me that the gays had much more rights on the Sadam regime!?!?!

Formal rights? Most probably not, same as everybody else.

Were they actively hunted down by killer squads? Not that I'm aware of.
 
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
Were they actively hunted down by killer squads? Not that I'm aware of.

But you don't know for sure .. nor do I, but I would be willing to bet that Sadam didn't have much room in his heart for the gay lifestyle and it wouldn't be above him to have the gays brutally killed like he did the Kurds and many others.
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Klaus
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 30):
But you don't know for sure .. nor do I, but I would be willing to bet that Sadam didn't have much room in his heart for the gay lifestyle and it wouldn't be above him to have the gays brutally killed like he did the Kurds and many others.

Saddam was highly interested in politically dangerous activities. I'm not aware that he had any major interest in conventional morality, except for tactical purposes.

Protection of his power was his main interest, everything else was subordinate to that. He had no real ideology beyond it that I knew of.
 
TERRA
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:32 pm

These murder squads go around after all types in society. This is just media spin. Today it's homesexuals, tomorrow it's sunnis, yesterday it was shiites, next week it'll be pro west supporters, the week after it'll be women who don't cover up etc etc etc.

In fact all of the above happens on a daily basis. Criminal gangs (they only use Islam as a cover and should be considered criminals) rule the streets and this is partly down to the coalition losing control of the situation. Security for the everyday Iraqi simply doesn't exist whether your straight, gay, rich, poor, sunni, shia the list goes on...............
 
Gilligan
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 26):
Probably not, but the point is how ridiculous the claim is that all of the deaths in this war, and all of the money spent, have brought "freedom" and "democracy" to Iraq.

Maybe you should read a history book on the United States, say from 1781 to 1800. Even better and more current, what happened in East Germany say 1945 to 1955, or in France in 1945 for that matter.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
Were they actively hunted down by killer squads? Not that I'm aware of.

How would you even have any clue? Did you live there? I have as much information on that as you do. What a ridiculous statement. Yep Interpol doesn't really investigate anymore, they just pick up the phone and call Klaus.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
Protection of his power was his main interest, everything else was subordinate to that. He had no real ideology beyond it that I knew of.

What about his sons, or all the people in the secret police? It wasn't just Saddam that was having people killed just like it wasn't Hitler that was doing all the killing in the third Reich.
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Klaus
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 33):
How would you even have any clue? Did you live there?

No. But the reports from Iraq I've seen so far (both while under Saddam and thereafter) seemed to be quite consistent in what the regime cared about and what it didn't.

Under Saddam Iraq was politically repressed but socially halfway modern. Right now the situation is beginning to reverse, apparently.
 
AGM100
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 26):
Yes, once again the old "they 'deserved' to be liberated by having their infrascructure and security destroyed and having countless civilian deaths, and now they 'deserve' the chaotic result because they are just warring primitives" argument. If is so condescending it makes me want to scream.

After 9/11 everything changed . As a matter of survival the US must act to change the status quo in the Muslim world. I do not see it as some kind of choice, it is not. If the US does not do something to effect the root cause, which is bad government, the cycle will continue. In my view it is a matter of survival for the US and Europe to attempt to effect these changes.

What choice is their... Sit back and let the situation keep getting worse... or attack and at least give them a chance to change. Saddam would have eventually lost power any way and most likely Iraq would have slid into civil war. In my view it would have been worse for Iraq , Saddam would have had to kill very many in a attempt to stay in power at the same time Sunni/Shia would battle for turf.

N229. The goal of the killers in Iraq is create enough violence to derail any changes. They are focusing on you... they know you watch the news , they know the president is losing ground. They smell victory , unfortunately for the good people of Iraq the we are losing our focus and they will die for it.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Gilligan
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
But the reports from Iraq I've seen so far (both while under Saddam and thereafter) seemed to be quite consistent in what the regime cared about and what it didn't.

Would this be the reporting that many acknowledged was biased due to the fact that if they went too far overboard Saddam's ministry of public affairs would just kick them out? Get real.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
itsjustme
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting TERRA (Reply 32):
This is just media spin.

Media spin? The quoted article sounds pretty specific about what is taking place with regard to gays having to flee, literally for their lives. Not a whole lot of room for the media "spin" you refer to there.

Quoting TERRA (Reply 32):
Criminal gangs (they only use Islam as a cover and should be considered criminals) rule the streets and this is partly down to the coalition losing control of the situation.

Eleven-year-old Ameer Hasoon al-Hasani was kidnapped by policemen from the front of his house last month. He was known in his district to have been forced into prostitution. His father Hassan told me he searched for his son for three days after his abduction, then found him, shot in the head. A copy of the death certificate confirms the cause of death.

Did you miss this part of the article? An eleven year-old who was eventually found shot in the head, was kidnapped by policemen. Are you saying Iraqi police officers are criminal gangs? If this is true, our time table to turn over the enforcement of laws and ensuring the safety of (all) Iraqi citizens just took a giant step backward.
 
Jalto27R
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 4):

What? I believe you are implying that Americans are the ones doing the killing of the Gays, when in fact it is the radicals who support Saddam and want his tyranny back in power. Of course it's America's fault though, that Iraqi society does not support gays. I'm not saying I agree with it, but democracy allows for the public opinion to decide how the government should be run. If this is the laws they decided upon, then so be it.

Furthermore I find it sickening that this is happening, and that a certain group in society can be persecuted by extremists as in this case. I pray they can find safety and acceptance in the near future.

Mike
 
itsjustme
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 38):
Furthermore I find it sickening that this is happening, and that a certain group in society can be persecuted by extremists as in this case.

Sickening is an understatement. What's even more sickening is the U.S. has known about these death squads since at least last year but has apparently turned a blind eye. This exchange between Sec. of Defense Rumsfeld and a reporter at a pentagon press conference took place in November of 2005:

Q: Mr. Secretary, are you concerned over -- and in fact, is the United States looking into growing reports of uniformed death squads in Iraq perhaps assassinating and torturing hundreds of Sunnis? And if that's true, what would that say about stability in Iraq?

SEC. RUMSFELD: I'm not going to comment on hypothetical questions. I've not seen reports that hundreds are being killed by roving death squads at all. We know for a fact that it's a violent country. We know for a fact that there have been various militias. We know that there have been some militias that have been Iran-oriented. We also know there's been some militias in the north that have been very helpful. The Peshmerga have been very constructive in what they've done. But I'm not going to get into speculation like that.

Q: But, sir, that's not a hypothetical, I don't believe. The Sunnis themselves are charging that hundreds have been assassinated, people shot in the head, found in alleys.

SEC. RUMSFELD: What you're talking about are unverified -- to my knowledge, at least -- unverified comments. I just don't have any data from the field that I could comment on in a specific way.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 33):
Maybe you should read a history book on the United States, say from 1781 to 1800. Even better and more current, what happened in East Germany say 1945 to 1955, or in France in 1945 for that matter.

What are you talking about? Please, enlighten me mister holier-than-thou. I think I have a good grasp on US history, but I still have absolutely no idea what you think your point is as relates to Iraq.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
After 9/11 everything changed . As a matter of survival the US must act to change the status quo in the Muslim world. I do not see it as some kind of choice, it is not. If the US does not do something to effect the root cause, which is bad government, the cycle will continue. In my view it is a matter of survival for the US and Europe to attempt to effect these changes.

I really hate the "after 9/11 everything changed" argument, especially when it is used to justify the very same foreign policy that helped cause 9/11. I agree that a root cause of terrorism is "bad government" in that part of the world. I disagree on two other issues though.
1.) I disagree that starting a war in Iraq could make that government better, because we were/are not trusted or influential enough in the population there to impose our will. Instead, we have simply created a vacuum of chaos to be filled by more hatred and violence.
2.) Another root cause of terrorism is that we have historically been responsible for instigating and propping up many of the worst governments in the region, through our cold war policy and our need for oil (for example our toppling of the democratic Mussadiq grovernment in Iran in the 50s to install the Shah's brutal regime, etc. etc.) Our interference in the region is thus mistrusted with good reason, and we should have known this before attacking. We have recruited more terrorists with the Iraq war, not done anything to lessen the danger to ourselves.

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 38):
What? I believe you are implying that Americans are the ones doing the killing of the Gays, when in fact it is the radicals who support Saddam and want his tyranny back in power.

Talking about two different things of course. When I said the US was killing people direcly, I meant that in our actual bombing and ground offensives, some of the "bad guys" we get (not even including the "collateral damage") are from groups that Saddam was also fighting, but now we call them terrorists and then we called them victims.

The other (related) point, regarding this specific article, is that although most of the killing is done now by insurgent groups fighting AGAINST the US, we are the ones who plunged Iraq into this chaotic state in the first place. For example, you are confused when you state these Shia miliatias are supporters of Saddam's Sunni tryranny! They are, on the contrary, among the groups Saddam suppressed, and they are now monsters we have unleashed...and we are not even sure if they are the people we are supposed to be protecting or fighting!

[Edited 2006-08-08 01:17:16]

[Edited 2006-08-08 01:23:02]
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Gilligan
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 40):
What are you talking about? Please, enlighten me mister holier-than-thou. I think I have a good grasp on US history, but I still have absolutely no idea what you think your point is as relates to Iraq.

History is replete with "payback" or an evening of the score so to speak in countries just liberated or in conflict. In France they drug the collaborators out and did all sorts of unspeakable things to them including killing them. In Germany the Russians had their way with the women of Berlin for something like 72 hours after the city was subduded. Is it fair, is it right? No of course not but it happens and it's part of life. If you decide to be a gay person in the muslim world, you ask for a lot of trouble whether the government is secular or not. What do you suggest that the Army do? Round up all the gay people and put them in a holding pen to keep them safe?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
searpqx
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 41):
History is replete with "payback" or an evening of the score so to speak in countries just liberated or in conflict.

C'mon bud - you're really reaching here. How on earth do you equate Iraqi Gays with Nazi Sympathizers in France or the German Women? In both of your sited cases, the assaults you describe were acts revenge/retribution. In this case, Iraqi Gays are apparently being hunted down, not for revenge, but because they apparently don't meet with the approval of the local extremists.

It amazes me that otherwise sane people will continue to try to rationalize and minimalize this kind of behavior! No matter where you stand on the Iraq War, President Bush or just about anything else, no person in their right mind can tell me that a society that has radical groups hunting down and murdering its own citizenry is healthy.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
jaysit
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 19):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
But hey, we already established there wasn't any gays in Iraq during the rule of Saddam. Remember this photo?:

A marble toilet and bidet is gay now? I never got the memo, dammit.

That looks like a loo in the home of a tacky straight person.

No gay man would even brush his teeth in something like that.

As for Iraq being a gay paradise prior to 2003, no one is dumb enough to make such an assumption. There were laws on the books that criminalized homosexuality, but these laws were seldom enacted. An Iraqi colleague who fled iIraq in 1986 and who is now in his mid-40s said that Baghdad had a gay underground scene and that civil society generally turned a blind eye towards gays. Much like in other Arab countries (other than the crazy Saudi Arabia), it wasn't accepted, but as long as you were quiet about it and didn't let the neighbors know, most people didn't ask for your head on a platter. Saddam did throw new draconian laws on the books in 2001 in a crude attempt to court religious conservatives (why does this sound familiar???), but these laws were apparently not followed through. Its quite different now, with crazed Shia fundies running amock seeking gays out for slaughter.

Of course, all of this could also be the basis of a Falcon vid --- Gay hunky marine saves handsome gay Iraqi college student (who also somehow has access to MetRx and a Nautilus machine) from the wrath of a blood thirsty mob, and they go at it like rabbits.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TERRA
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:38 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 37):
Did you miss this part of the article? An eleven year-old who was eventually found shot in the head, was kidnapped by policemen. Are you saying Iraqi police officers are criminal gangs? If this is true, our time table to turn over the enforcement of laws and ensuring the safety of (all) Iraqi citizens just took a giant step backward.

Yes, catch up!!!! The police is full of militia (mainly Shia) which has been recorded in dispatches for a long time now. You don't read the news much! They are not hunting just gays, they are indescrimate in their executions.

The media spin is to make an article specific to the gay population. They've flogged most other stories to death so need to find a different angle to fill the tabloids. Who wants to hear yet another story about the thousands of Sunni muslims (as an example) who have fled, and still are, in fear to Jordan?
To be frank (and this is only my opinion) the plight of homosexuals in Iraq is just a drop in the ocean compared to what's really going on.
 
jaysit
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:01 pm

Quoting TERRA (Reply 44):
To be frank (and this is only my opinion) the plight of homosexuals in Iraq is just a drop in the ocean compared to what's really going on.

Well, its part and parcel of what's really going on, which is the rampant rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Iraq along with the virtual destruction of civil society.

Quoting TERRA (Reply 44):
The media spin is to make an article specific to the gay population. They've flogged most other stories to death so need to find a different angle to fill the tabloids

The plight of Sunnis being blown up by bombs or being murdered en masse on highways doesn't negate the added fears faced by gay Sunnis, who not only have to fear the possibility of being blown to shreds by a roadside bomb or being gunned down in cold blood when they step outside, but also the fear of being hunted down and slaughtered in their own homes.

But you see, its all A-OK because GWB and his merry band of Court Jesters have brought "democracy" to Iraq.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
AGM100
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 40):
I really hate the "after 9/11 everything changed" argument,

Dont know why ? It is possibly the largest event in our recent history and for sure in my life time. Their has never been an attack like it , a true terror attack. Your point,basically saying ,that we deserved it is completely mad. Sure I will give it to you that the US is not perfect , but we have not done anything to warrant that attack. Besides , Bin Ladan should have loved us , we helped his fighters in Afghanistan. The US may have done some things in the east that are questionable. However , the US has also done alot to help the ME over the years.Billions in aid ,infrastructure assistance and commercial agreements ect. Your view of "understanding" the people who want us dead just because were Christians is dangerous IMHO.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 40):
I disagree that starting a war in Iraq could make that government better,

The intention of the war was not completely to make their government better. The war was to take out a threat to us and IMHO bring pressure on Iran. Iran has sat in the background for to long, the war in Iraq has worked to expose the regime their for what it is. Iraq will in the end have a better government that Saddam, it will take a long time no doubt. The killer insurgents will not win favor with the peace loving people in Iraq. Eventually the terrorist will lose politically.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 40):
historically been responsible for instigating and propping up many of the worst governments in the region, through our cold war policy and our need for oil (for example our toppling of the

Cold War indeed , another war another time, different fears. Worthy causes IMHO defeating Soviet expansion into the ME, and secureing our oil supply. I guess it is all about how you look at the big picture.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
TERRA
Posts: 208
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 45):
The plight of Sunnis being blown up by bombs or being murdered en masse on highways doesn't negate the added fears faced by gay Sunnis, who not only have to fear the possibility of being blown to shreds by a roadside bomb or being gunned down in cold blood when they step outside, but also the fear of being hunted down and slaughtered in their own homes

Remove the word "gay" from the above paragraph and the statement is still valid. Normal folk aren't just killed on the streets but in their homes too. Persecution on this scale doesn't need to segregate the victims beyond Sunni vs Shia. If they really are looking for minorities to persecute they must be running out of ideas. However I would suggest anyone who is at risk gets out to Jordan or Syria asap.

You are right in what you say, that democracy GWB style will save the day!!!
 
Gilligan
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 42):
It amazes me that otherwise sane people will continue to try to rationalize and minimalize this kind of behavior!

I'm not doing either. Perhaps a better representation would be Yugoslavia and the events that took place there. What I'm getting at is that once the oppression is lifted, there are always those with scores to settle. In this case the extremist Muslim goes after the gay people to "protect" the faith. It's not the first time this kind of thing has happened and certainly won't be the last. It's a shame, but to make it out as though nothing happened to gay people under Saddams rule and that they were just peacefully minding their business until he was removed by the "evil" United States and that every bad thing that has befallen them since is some how our fault is just ridiculous.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
searpqx
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RE: Death Squads Now Targeting Iraqi Gays

Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 48):
What I'm getting at is that once the oppression is lifted, there are always those with scores to settle.

No denying this, but what everyone else is getting at is that the US has totally failed to anticipate and manage this, and in fact has taken actions (destroying the secular infrastructure) that have allowed it to flourish.

Again, while no one with any sense would claim that life under Saddam was safe or 'good', for the vast non-political majority of the country, including the gays, if they kept their head down stayed out of Saddam's way they were relatively safe. That isn't the case now, and no amount of saying, "it's happened before" will alleviate it or make it somehow palatable, nor will it erase the fact that as the occupying power, we had a responsibility to control it and we have so far not been able to.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"

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