zrs70
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Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:32 am

We are putting our efforts into hte wrong place. Rather than search for bombs, we should search for bombers.
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BMIFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Thread starter):
We are putting our efforts into hte wrong place. Rather than search for bombs, we should search for bombers

Erm, thats exactly what happened this week in the UK, we found the people behind a large bombing plot.

How are we putting our efforts into the wrong place exactly?



Lee
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kaddyuk
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Thread starter):
We are putting our efforts into hte wrong place. Rather than search for bombs, we should search for bombers.

No, what we need to cut down on are those people who SELL airline tickets to the bombers... dont give people who want to set off bombs on aircraft tickets to fly!

 sarcastic 

You Muppet...
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FDXmech
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:51 am

Understand your point. El Al does a great job of profiling their pax.
IMO - Unfortunately if we were as effective as the Israeli's, the ACLU et al would have a field day crying, "Racial Profiling!" in an effort to undermine the system.
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md80fanatic
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:11 am

All bombers were at some time in their lives people that thought they would never have an intention to bomb. Until the time they decide to do so, they should be free to fly as anyone else (they have not yet committed a crime).

A bomber cannot bomb without a bomb, correct? What if the bomber decides to ship his cargo via a third party....if we were looking for bombers only, and not the bomb itself, we would miss it. This isn't very smart, is it?

Searching for physical devices is the most effective way to handle both issues. Bombs explode....not the bombers (if they have no bomb of course).
 
FDXmech
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 4):
All bombers were at some time in their lives people that thought they would never have an intention to bomb. Until the time they decide to do so, they should be free to fly as anyone else (they have not yet committed a crime).

Putting, "To bomb or not to bomb" on the same mindset as, "Coke or Sprite" is folly.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 4):
A bomber cannot bomb without a bomb, correct? What if the bomber decides to ship his cargo via a third party....if we were looking for bombers only, and not the bomb itself, we would miss it. This isn't very smart, is it?

Every mode of transport should be allowed every possible means of detection feasable. That doesn't mean bombs and not bombers nor bombers and not bombs but rather both. Your methodology smcks of political correctness at the expense of pubic safety. Simple.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 4):
Searching for physical devices is the most effective way to handle both issues. Bombs explode....not the bombers (if they have no bomb of course).

Has the term redundancy entered your mindset? What if the bomb is well hidden and can't be found till it's too late. Maybe vetting the bomber would prevent such needless tragedies. You also fail to reconize that nowadays bombers *do* explode along with their contents as the preferred method of meeting their maker.

You are affording the bomber rights he does not have. You are sacrificing the rights of innocent people. Wake up.
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777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 5):

Every mode of transport should be allowed every possible means of detection feasable.

Not if you want to be able to fly cheaply. Put the best technology into airports, along with 2-3 security agents per passenger, an expect to see fares quadruple and waiting times at airports increase to a ridiculous level. It's not economically or practically feasible to have total security. There has to be a balance.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 5):
Your methodology smcks of political correctness at the expense of pubic safety

Don't be so sensationalist. Public safety isn't assured in anything. The entire industry has to strike a balance between passenger safety, and economics.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:02 am

I have one word for you . . .

PROFILE

Yes, I know, everyone instantly thinks Racist . . . well, good for you and your narrow sense of vision.

As I've said before - Profiling works . . . it's a great tool if used properly in conjunction with other tools to help reduce the chance that someone will blow a 747 out of the sky. . .

Until the Political Correctness wienies get off their high horse and quit sniveling then we'll continue to see these same types of circumstances pop up over and over.

The solution is not simple - but we - the world - are certainly missing the boat by refusing to profile passengers.

I don't look for tall thin white guys selling drugs in Mountain View section of Anchorage and I damn sure don't look for tall thin black guys doing so in Oceanview . . . that is profiling . . . and it works. It's not racist - it's common sense. . . . some all the feel-gooders and PC monkeys seem be short on.
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aerobalance
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
don't look for tall thin white guys selling drugs in Mountain View section of Anchorage and I damn sure don't look for tall thin black guys doing so in Oceanview . . . that is profiling . . . and it works. It's not racist - it's common sense. . . . some all the feel-gooders and PC monkeys seem be short on

Note to self - avoid the Mt. View area of ANC and Oceanview

Signed,
Me - a tall thin white guy who has chosen to live lawfully.....
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777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):

As I've said before - Profiling works

That doesn't mean it's justified.

Shooting everyone with HIV would also work.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
PROFILE

Yes, I know, everyone instantly thinks Racist

By definition it's racist. It's discrimination based solely upon race.

If you start to go down this route, where does it end? Insurance companies are already overtly sexist in their cover. Open security profiling gives them a green light to base insurance upon 'race'.

If black people are more likely than white people to commit a crime, then should all black people be subject to curfews, more random searches and detailed checks? If Chinese Americans are more likely to crash a car than 'white' Americans, should they be banned from driving?

This isn't about 'feel-gooders' and 'PC monkeys', it's about the freedoms and liberties that the West is based upon. The West is liberal. If you advocate these draconian, racist measures, then you're as bad as the terrorists trying to destroy our way of life.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 9):
By definition it's racist. It's discrimination based solely upon race.

Your dictionary is quite obviously outdated . . .

And thank you for making my point:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Yes, I know, everyone instantly thinks Racist . . . well, good for you and your narrow sense of vision.

And so quickly too.  thumbsup 

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 9):
This isn't about 'feel-gooders' and 'PC monkeys', it's about the freedoms and liberties that the West is based upon. The West is liberal. If you advocate these draconian, racist measures, then you're as bad as the terrorists trying to destroy our way of life.

It's about protecting and maintaining the freedoms and liberties we in the West so quickly and handily 'give away' . . . that's what it's about.

Once more - get a new dictionary - your's is outdated . . . you're instant adjudication that profiling is racist is the proof thereof.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
PROFILE

Here's my issue though, John - at what point does it become GIGO? The enemy in this case aren't Arabs or Pakistanis or Persians, but Islamic fundamentalists who don't exactly walk around with signs on.

Would you profile this guy?



He's as white as can be and looks like any number of college students I've seen (actually bears resemblance to a friend of mine). Yet he's on the FBI Seeking Information List.

How about this guy?



Same thing - white as can be, looks like your average WASPy sort, but it's John Walker Lindh.

Let's flip the script onto terrorism in general. Should we also profile white, male, military veterans whenever they rent a truck because of this guy?



How about white, male, evangelical Christians buying pipes and nails because of this guy?



Same purchase at Home Depot, but a different profile - PhD holders who don't like technology:



My point isn't that "Oh no, profiling is racist!" It's that "oh no, terrorists don't conform to a profile." Simply put, they're wolves in sheep's clothing and while you're profiling a sheep (let's say an Arab Christian or an Arab Jew or a Zoroastrian Persian) a wolf like Lindh, Gadahn, McVeigh, Rudolph, or Kaczynski could easily slip by.

[Edited 2006-08-11 18:27:55]
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777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Your dictionary is quite obviously outdated . . .

Racism is discrimination based upon race. Which is what you're advocating doing.

From the American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition:

rac·ism
n
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
It's about protecting and maintaining the freedoms and liberties we in the West so quickly and handily 'give away' . . . that's what it's about.

What you're suggesting is protecting the freedoms and liberties of the majority by limiting those of the minority.

Your idea would destroy much more than any terrorist could. It would destroy our way of life, our ideologies and our beliefs. If you start erroding our liberties and freedoms, there's no telling where it will stop. It's only a tiny leap in argument to go from racial profiling to racial segregation to racial internment.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Once more - get a new dictionary - your's is outdated

One more time, just in case you ignore what I wrote:


rac·ism
n
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
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777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:21 am

On another point, it's interesting that you as an American think that terrorism can only come from someone who looks Middle Eastern. The Provisional IRA and Continuity IRA were funded by organisations in the US. They trained and recruited in the US, under the nose of successive American governments, while terrorist attack after attack was being carried out on civilians.
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jamesag96
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:27 am

The first guy looks like a douche, and yes I would profile him.

John Walker didn't look like that when they picked him up so that pic is misleading.

McVeigh was a nut job, and how many more out there were like him? Too, though not proven, there is chatter he wasn't alone and had influences from some of the same folks we are fighting today.

Rudolph and Ted...they certainly seem to be part of something larger, even global in scale don't they?

These arguments are tired. Fact is most if not 99% of ALL terrorism in the world today is because of Muslim extremism...why is it bad to say that? Why is it bad to profile that? How is that racist?
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 11):
Would you profile this guy?

Give me the scenario . . . what am I looking for?

Drugs in Mountainview?

Shoe Bombers?

See, here is what I mean by short sighted or "narrow sense of vision" (not meaning you of course - just in general). When I discuss profiling I paint a larger picture than most people can envision (apparently the case since I'm instantly labelled a racist every time I use the word).

It's not just about a race, or a religion, it also must include the circumstance or scenario.

Let me paint a picture for you: In Northern Montana and in Idaho, if I'm looking to work a case involving neo-nazi/fascist gun nuts that have declared their independence from the USA, I'm certainly NOT going to pay much attention to a Blackfoot Indian from Cut Bank, Montana (and I know a couple - served with them in the Army). Why??? Doesn't fit the 'profile'. No, I'm going to be looking for and watching the McVeigh and Rudolph types. It's not racist . . . it's a tool, and one that works.

Another: If I'm out looking to catch street racers on Northern Lights Blvd - am I going to watch out for lumbering BAFDTs like mine, or the little rice burners with way too small tires, lighted wheel wells and phony spoilers duct taped to the trunk lid? It's not racist . . . it's a tool, and one that works.

And again: In Anchorage today we have a serious gang problem with the Samoans/Polynesians. It's a fact, over a dozen killings this year amongst some of the young people here in town. So if an APD Officer, working the gang task force in Fairview section of the city wants to be effective, s/he needs to pay attention to the Samoans/Polynesians in the area moreso than the balance of the population there . . . it's not racist, it's a tool.

Now - finally: Let me paint this picture for you: In the last 5-6 years, who has had a propensity for disrupting air travel in this world by flying planes into buildings or planning to blow a half dozen or so out of the sky? The southern baptists? Presbyterians? American Indians? Polynesians? Nooo - young to middle aged radical Muslims/Islamic Fascists. So at the airport, one should probably pay a tad more attention to people that fit that profile. It is inconvient, it is not fair, it is not politically correct, but - it IS effective.

I understand completely your point . . . believe me I do.



See my point?

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 11):
(actually bears resemblance to a friend of mine).

And he needs a haircut  wink 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 14):
Why is it bad to profile that? How is that racist?

By definition racial profiling is racist! Whether it's justified or not is the question, but it's certainly racist.
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aloges
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
I don't look for tall thin white guys selling drugs in Mountain View section of Anchorage and I damn sure don't look for tall thin black guys doing so in Oceanview . . . that is profiling . . . and it works. It's not racist - it's common sense.

Apples and oranges. If you, as an experienced street cop in your area, know where to take a good look at whom, you're not primarily doing racial profiling. You're using your work experience t minimise threats.

Using racial profiling to fight terrorism is a totally different pair of shoes. I won't go into "does it work or not", but of course recent history teaches us that an "Arab-looking" young male is statistically more likely to be terrorist plotting to blow up an airplane than a 60yo WASP corporate criminal using his ripped-off customers' money to pay for FC tickets.

There are criminals in all parts of society, but their crimes aren't the same.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 16):
racial profiling

Please, show me where I said RACIAL profiling. I did not . . . I said Profiling . . . . and I went through a whole litany of explanation, scenarios, examples . . . and apparently, you've missed the point - again. And my point continues to be made:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
good for you and your narrow sense of vision.

Wanna give it another shot?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
I won't go into "does it work or not",

I will, and it does. Simply as that.

And again . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
It is inconvient, it is not fair, it is not politically correct, but - it IS effective.



Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
a 60yo WASP corporate criminal using his ripped-off customers' money to pay for FC tickets

And those law enforcement types that work those cases, apparently more effectively these days, are certainly not watching the cabbie in Manhattan . . . noooo, they are watching the corporate CEOs that perpetuate this type of crime. Why, because the cabbie doesn't fit the PROFILE. it's not about race, it's about what kind of crime might be committed.

If it's a possibility that AA or BA might have a plane blown up, and history dictates that it's likely to be a young/middle aged radical muslim that will do so, are you going to pay attention to granny with the walker?

It's not apples and oranges, it's good investigative police work.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
Please, show me where I said RACIAL profiling. I did not

So then how would you profile? Are you suggesting that you wouldn't profile based upon race?

[Edited 2006-08-11 18:49:11]
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777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):

If it's a possibility that AA or BA might have a plane blown up, and history dictates that it's likely to be a young/middle aged radical muslim that will do so, are you going to pay attention to granny with the walker?

So while you didn't say 'racial profiling', you're advocating it. In that case, I'll reitterate the point I've made repeatedly, that you ignore.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 12):

Your idea would destroy much more than any terrorist could. It would destroy our way of life, our ideologies and our beliefs. If you start erroding our liberties and freedoms, there's no telling where it will stop. It's only a tiny leap in argument to go from racial profiling to racial segregation to racial internment.
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aloges
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
certainly not watching the cabbie in Manhattan . . . noooo, they are watching the corporate CEOs that perpetuate this type of crime. Why, because the cabbie doesn't fit the PROFILE.

good point there
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 19):
So then how would you profile? Are you suggesting that you wouldn't profile based upon race?

I'll profile for the type of crime I'm trying to prevent . . . did you not read anything I wrote above? Whether it's jaywalking, drug dealing, street racing, corporate corruption, or blowing up airplanes . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):

I'll profile for the type of crime I'm trying to prevent . . . did you not read anything I wrote above? Whether it's jaywalking, drug dealing, street racing, corporate corruption, or blowing up airplanes . . .

Which is rhetorical gobbledegook to skirt around the issue. You advocate racial profile to prevent terrorist attacks.

Once again:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 12):

Your idea would destroy much more than any terrorist could. It would destroy our way of life, our ideologies and our beliefs. If you start erroding our liberties and freedoms, there's no telling where it will stop. It's only a tiny leap in argument to go from racial profiling to racial segregation to racial internment.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
I understand completely your point . . . believe me I do.



See my point?

No, I definitely do understand your point, John - there are some instances where profiling will nab down your suspect fairly easily, as you mention. But, terrorism, like most things in our modern society, has become globalized. The guy born in Lebanon whose family died from a 16" round fired by the USS New Jersey is as likely to be a member of Al-Qaeda as the guy who had a relatively privileged life in California as the grandson of a surgeon or the guy born in Brooklyn who's a former Latin King or the guy from France who had no religious education. The only common link being faith and that, at least, is something it seems a bit more difficult to profile for. How do you profile a Sunni (more likely to be a member) than a Shi'ite? How do you profile what I call a BBB Muslim (beer, bacon, babes, ie one who doesn't adhere as strictly) from a devout believer masquerading?
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FDXmech
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
Your idea would destroy much more than any terrorist could. It would destroy our way of life, our ideologies and our beliefs. If you start erroding our liberties and freedoms, there's no telling where it will stop. It's only a tiny leap in argument to go from racial profiling to racial segregation to racial internment.

You answer this quite well.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
Which is rhetorical gobbledegook to skirt around the issue.

Difficult problems require difficult decisions. No getting around it. You do what must be done.
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peterk
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:11 am

Political - and racial - correctness is sweat, as long as you're not sitting in one of the 9 planes, which bombings were prevented due to profiling investigations..
Something perfect can only get worse
 
777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting FDXmech (Reply 25):
Difficult problems require difficult decisions. No getting around it. You do what must be done.

Which hasn't answered the point I've made. You could take many radical steps in a society to make its safer. There must be a balance between the level of security a society wants and the reduction in freedoms associated with that.

If you allow essentially racial profiling at airports, then the jump to such things as racial segregation and racial internment becomes that much smaller. You could use exactly the same logic to argue for both those things.

If you kill all HIV victims, society would be safer. If you had CCTV in everyone's homes, society would be safer. If all mail, emails and telephone calls were screened, society would be safer. If there was a night time curfew, society would be safer. If there was a blanket ban on people who 'looked Middle Eastern' flying, society would be safer.

Just because an action would make society safer doesn't mean it's good for the society. There's no such thing as total security, and the closer you get to it, the more liberties and freedoms are erroded.
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FDXmech
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting Peterk (Reply 26):
Political - and racial - correctness is sweat, as long as you're not sitting in one of the 9 planes, which bombings were prevented due to profiling investigations..

You are so right. Thanks.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 24):
The only common link being faith and that, at least, is something it seems a bit more difficult to profile for.

Nearly impossible in fact . . .

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 24):
How do you profile a Sunni (more likely to be a member) than a Shi'ite? How do you profile what I call a BBB Muslim (beer, bacon, babes, ie one who doesn't adhere as strictly) from a devout believer masquerading?

No good answer for this. I certainly wouldn't know a Sunni from a Shi'ite or a BBB . . . hell, I wouldn't even know a Muslim if I saw one . . . no more than I'd know a Southern Baptist or Catholic or a Buddist . . . not my speciality.

I mean, I do have one answer that will surely piss off everyone, and it's extreme, but until or unless the world can be assured of a substantial reduction in the possibility of getting airplanes blown up (or embassies burned down over cartoons, or cafe's/downtown shopping areas blown apart), then it is currently the only answer. More scrutiny for everyone that fits a particular profile of the folks on this planet that are committing these acts. Unfortunately, that's not a good answer, not a fair answer.

What solution does anyone else have?
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777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 29):
No good answer for this. I certainly wouldn't know a Sunni from a Shi'ite or a BBB . . . hell, I wouldn't even know a Muslim if I saw one . . . no more than I'd know a Southern Baptist or Catholic or a Buddist . . . not my speciality.

I mean, I do have one answer that will surely piss off everyone, and it's extreme, but until or unless the world can be assured of a substantial reduction in the possibility of getting airplanes blown up (or embassies burned down over cartoons, or cafe's/downtown shopping areas blown apart), then it is currently the only answer. More scrutiny for everyone that fits a particular profile of the folks on this planet that are committing these acts. Unfortunately, that's not a good answer, not a fair answer.

So the problem you admit with your idea is that you don't know who you want to profile!

I'm not critisising the TSA, because I don't know enough about them. However, anecdotally from what I've read on here, the job doesn't seem to require many qualifications. Are you asking them to do a job they can't? Could you average TSA agent spot a Turk from a Greek? Or a Pakistani from an Indian?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 29):
What solution does anyone else have?

Significantly heightened security. Pat downs for every passenger. Detailed bag checks, including searches if necessary.

Crucially, I'd give them more money! Even post-9/11 I've seen understaffed security checkpoints, where too few staff have to deal with the ever increasing passenger numbers. I've seen bags go through the X-ray machine unchecked, because the attendent was dealing with something else. I've seen people set off the metal detectors, and not be searched, because the security agents were dealing with three or four other people.

More generally, the war on terrorism can't be won by force and security alone. If someone wants to kill someone else, they'll find a way of doing it. With so many flights around the world, sooner or later a determined terrorist will find a way to blow them up. No level of security will prevent that happening.

If you accept that, then you have to stop looking at other ways to prevent people from being radicalised. Profiling will not reduce the number of terrorists in the world.
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cedars747
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Thread starter):
Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Have you asked yourself what would happen to B&B company" i mean Bouch and Blair"
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 30):
ificantly heightened security. Pat downs for every passenger. Detailed bag checks, including searches if necessary.

Well - we're already doing that, yet if my memory serves me, there was nearly a disaster in the air this week despite the increased security . . . so I guess this solution of yours doesn't work does it.

Tell me, who do you think is more likely to bring down an airliner with an explosive device? My 78 year old father with the cane or a 26 year old Paki, or Saudi, or Egyptian?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 30):
If someone wants to kill someone else, they'll find a way of doing it. With so many flights around the world, sooner or later a determined terrorist will find a way to blow them up. No level of security will prevent that happening.

Well, we certainly agree on this point.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 30):
So the problem you admit with your idea is that you don't know who you want to profile!

No, I know exactly who I'd profile at the airports . . . just like I know exactly who I'd profile in drug cases in Mountainview or Oceanview . . . just like I know exactly who I'd profile to reduce street racing on Northern Lights Blvd.

At the airports it won't be the 50 year old lady with a handbag and her knitting. In Mountainview it won't be Alaska Natives. On Northern Lights Blvd, it won't be Billy Bob in his beater Chevy pickup with the spit stains down the side.
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777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
Well - we're already doing that, yet if my memory serves me, there was nearly a disaster in the air this week despite the increased security . . . so I guess this solution of yours doesn't work does it.

The 'near disaster' this week had nothing to do with airport security. I'm suggesting security higher than it is now, employing enough, skilled security agents.

Regarding the liquid explosive issue, I'd be very surprised if the technology didn't exist to scan bags for explosives or chemicals likely to cause harm to the aircraft. If it's expensive, tough. It's cheaper than another September 11th. If the technology doesn't exist, get ploughing money into universities who will develop it.

Profiling someone who looks 'Middle Eastern' would not have stopped these near disasters either.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):

No, I know exactly who I'd profile at the airports

People of a certain skin colour.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
My 78 year old father with the cane or a 26 year old Paki, or Saudi, or Egyptian?

Racial slurs aside, you don't put too much faith into the intellect of the terrorists. If you start profiling, then you give more ammunition to those who radicalise kids in the Middle East. They can legitimately say, 'look! We were right! The US does discriminate against Muslims!' Not only that but you force a gulf between American Muslims and Americans who aren't Muslim.

If you start profiling your 'atypical terrorist', then terrorists will just use someone who isn't atypical. If, as your suggesting, security focus on atypical people, then you're giving the terrorists a nice, big sign saying 'Security isn't as tight for white women!'. Don't you think they'll exploit that?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
The 'near disaster' this week had nothing to do with airport security

Are you kidding? You are kidding right? The terrorists found a way around tightened security - liquid explosives - or did you miss that whole point???

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
Regarding the liquid explosive issue, I'd be very surprised if the technology didn't exist to scan bags for explosives or chemicals likely to cause harm to the aircraft. If it's expensive, tough. It's cheaper than another September 11th. If the technology doesn't exist, get ploughing money into universities who will develop it.

Agreed.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
Racial slurs aside,

What racial slur?  sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 34):

Are you kidding? You are kidding right? The terrorists found a way around tightened security - liquid explosives - or did you miss that whole point???

They were stopped before they got to airport security. Essentially, the security services worked. If anything it shows a problem with security that won't be fixed by profiling. It's not the first time a terrorist attack on aircraft has used liquid explosives. Case in point, the Philippine Airlines 747 in December 1994.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 34):
What racial slur?

Paki.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 35):
Paki.

No insult intended . . . I was not aware that is considered a slur . . .

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 35):
They were stopped before they got to airport security.

Your short sighted vision at work again.

Do you think that the terrorists simply woke up the other morning and over scrambled eggs and bloody marys thought to themselves, Hmmm, shall we just use some liquid explosive??? Or do you think perhaps they've tested and retested their theory with airport security in the past, developing some semblance of knowledge that they could in fact get certain items through airport security based on previous successes?

C'mon . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 3):
Unfortunately if we were as effective as the Israeli's, the ACLU et al would have a field day crying, "Racial Profiling!"

You gotta crack a few eggs.........

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
Apples and oranges.

Yea, but the problem is you're still talking about fruit.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
Do you think that the terrorists simply woke up the other morning and over scrambled eggs and bloody marys thought to themselves, Hmmm, shall we just use some liquid explosive??? Or do you think perhaps they've tested and retested their theory with airport security in the past, developing some semblance of knowledge that they could in fact get certain items through airport security based on previous successes?

MY short sighted vision?

Profiling would not have stopped these planned attacks.
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cfalk
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:44 am

Absolutely agree. Today's system of checking for bombs randomly was fine back in the day when a bomb was some sticks of dynamite or a block of Semtex with a big clock on the side, but now that they have figured how to make explosives out of items an liquids that can be disguised as anything, it's getting ridiculous to check everyone like that.

Profile the passengers. Anyone who looks like he could be of Middle Eastern extraction, or dressed in pakistani clothes, or has a beard, or one of any criteria (I'm sure Israel can give a few pointers, haul him to the side and search him thoroughly. Let the little old ladies, balding businessmen and blonde women with children go through more easily.

It's time to cut the crap. The terrorists are predominantly muslim males with dark skin and dark hair, aged from their teens to their 30s. Concentrate on them, and you'll be able to do a proper job without delaying everyone too much. In the US and Europe, you don't have more than a dozen or so such people on each flight.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
777236ER
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:55 am

Re. CFalk

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 12):

Your idea would destroy much more than any terrorist could. It would destroy our way of life, our ideologies and our beliefs. If you start erroding our liberties and freedoms, there's no telling where it will stop. It's only a tiny leap in argument to go from racial profiling to racial segregation to racial internment.

Then again, I don't think you'd be too averse to internment.
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cfalk
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 40):
Your idea would destroy much more than any terrorist could. It would destroy our way of life, our ideologies and our beliefs. If you start erroding our liberties and freedoms, there's no telling where it will stop. It's only a tiny leap in argument to go from racial profiling to racial segregation to racial internment.

That is utter bullcrap. The typical chicken-little whining about the sky falling... errr... eroding our liberties. This has nothing to do about loosing your freedom. It's about looking for threats where they most likely are.

If your car has a tendency to stall, do you check the tires? The brakes? No, you check the engine, because that's where the problem is likely to be. If you lose your keys, you check the freezer? The bottom of the toilet? How about the pockets of your grandfather's Vietnam-era uniform, in case he pocketed your keys at the Battle of Hue? No, you check the entry hall, kitchen counter and other places where they are most likely to be.

Let's say you have 100 passengers on a plane. Without profiling, you have to spend 1% of your available manpower on each one. If you profile, you can spend 10 times more time on the 7 or 8 people who fit the profile, and not break the balls of the men, women and children who clearly pose no risk.

There is an extra advantage too for the guy you searched. Once he has been through such a complete workover, he will no longer be a suspect at all, and he can be sent on board with a "Sorry for the inconvenience and thank you for cooperating", and maybe even a friendly smile, because we can be sure he is not a threat. Currently, everyone still looks at him with a bit of suspicion even after the security check, because we all know that the checks are not nearly as complete as they should be if you wanted 100% effectiveness. You have to concentrate your efforts where it is most effective.

The consitution is not a suicide pact. There is nothing unconstitutional about picking out someone who fits the profile and making extra sure about him.

When a cop pulls over someone for DUI who is weaving down the road, he is profiling. Such a car fits the profile of a drunk driver. Do you find anything wrong with that? Maybe he's just a bad driver. Maybe he just had a bad day at the office and is really tired. But the cop is right to pull him over, right?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cedars747
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 39):
Anyone who looks like he could be of Middle Eastern extraction



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 39):
The terrorists are predominantly muslim males with dark skin and dark hair, aged from their teens to their 30s.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
What about plastic surgery ?
Alex!!!
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FDXmech
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 40):
Your idea would destroy much more than any terrorist could. It would destroy our way of life, our ideologies and our beliefs. If you start erroding our liberties and freedoms, there's no telling where it will stop. It's only a tiny leap in argument to go from racial profiling to racial segregation to racial internment.

If you were actually concerned with our way of life and the rights of these minorities you'd better stop these animals and quick. Should these people have some successful attacks the backlash will be so great that any talk of reasonable restraint will be thrown out the window. Better to step on a few toes now and defeat this enemy then let the cauldren boil over.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 38):
Profiling would not have stopped these planned attacks.

You're catching on . . . . let me reiterate . . . .

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 38):
MY short sighted vision?

Expand your vision beyond this past week . . . expand it greatly . . . you're stuck in 2nd gear . . .

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
When a cop pulls over someone for DUI who is weaving down the road, he is profiling. Such a car fits the profile of a drunk driver

I already went there . . . thhe light bulb just hasn't come on . . . I don't know if it's burnt out or the switch is turned off . . . .
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 39):
Anyone who looks like he could be of Middle Eastern extraction, or dressed in pakistani clothes, or has a beard, or one of any criteria (I'm sure Israel can give a few pointers, haul him to the side and search him thoroughly. Let the little old ladies, balding businessmen and blonde women with children go through more easily.

It's time to cut the crap. The terrorists are predominantly muslim males with dark skin and dark hair, aged from their teens to their 30s. Concentrate on them

Congratulations. You've just let John Walker Lindh, Adam Gadahn, and Jose Padilla on your aircraft. I'm sure those fine gents won't do a thing. I'll repeat what I said earlier - while you're wasting your time on someone like an Arab Christian because they had the nerve to be born with brown skin, you're giving a free pas to Lindh or Gadahn. A terrorist hijacking an aircraft isn't going to waltz in the airport looking like he missed casting call for "Lawrence of Arabia" for pity's sakes, nor wear a sign that says "I'm a Sunni extremist," especially when Muslims come in all ethnicities despite your erroneous views.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 45):
Congratulations. You've just let John Walker Lindh, Adam Gadahn, and Jose Padilla on your aircraft. I'm sure those fine gents won't do a thing.

Your point is well taken, and I see but one flaw . . .

John Walker Lindh, Adam Gadahn, Padilla . . . isolated (if you'll permit the term) cases . . . not something that occurs 'every day'. Just as deadly and just as ruthless . . . in their own right.

I submit to you my friend, that the Radical/Extremist Muslims (who - self admittedly I couldn't pick out in a lineup) don't generally act alone, or on a small scale . . . appears to me there tends to be troups of the extremists acting in concert to a bitter end.

Here, however, his point is quite valid . . . .

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 39):
Let the little old ladies, balding businessmen and blonde women with children go through more easily.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ANother
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:19 am

I don't agree that profiling would work, not because it is racist but ... (from the BBC)

They range in ages between 17 and 36 and are from various addresses in East London, Buckinghamshire and Birmingham. Five live in the Buckinghamshire town of High Wycombe and three of those held have recently converted to Islam. The list includes a security guard, a science student and a university drop-out who works for a music company.

Abdul Waheed, 21, was arrested at a house in Hepplewhite Close, High Wycombe. He had changed his name from Don Stewart-Whyte about six months previously, according to neighbours. Another suspect, Osman Adam Khatib, 19, has lived in Walthamstow all his life. He is described by a friend as having recently become very serious in his adherence to Islam. One of the suspects has recently become a father and worked in security at Heathrow Airport.

Another is well-known for political activism at his university in East London. He is also a football fan and keen follower of Liverpool. One of the men arrested in east London, the son of an architect, is a talented football player who works for a music company. A British citizen arrested in Pakistan in connection with the alleged terror plot has been named as Rashid Rauf, described by the Foreign Ministry in Islamabad as a key suspect. He is thought to be related to Tayib Rauf, 22, of Birmingham - another of the suspects arrested in Britain.

I wouldn't doubt (but I don't know) that Abdul Waheed would be travelling on a British passport in the the name of Don Stewart-Whyte. I've also heard (but can't find the source) that one suspect is a young mother (so much for tasting baby milk).

No racial profiling would have caught all of these at the airport. In any case what we are seeing today at UK airports is the proverbial closing the barn door ... They won't try liquids again. What will they try next, and how do we stop them?
 
cfalk
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 47):
I don't agree that profiling would work, not because it is racist but ... (from the BBC)

They range in ages between 17 and 36 and are from various addresses in East London, Buckinghamshire and Birmingham. Five live in the Buckinghamshire town of High Wycombe and three of those held have recently converted to Islam.

Why wouldn't it work? One of the criteria would be 17-40, male. Nobody is talking about only racial profiling - that is only one of the things that raises a flag.

The Israelis have excellent experience in profiling, not only visually but aslo through some subtle and not-so-subtle conversational cues. Profiling is not just racial - it is much more sophisticated, and it works, as proven by El Al's perfect record over the past 30 years in spite of being the most targeted airline in the world.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANother
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RE: Authorities Should Look For Bombers, Not Bombs

Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:38 am

My point is that if you profile, you narrow your scope too much. A clean shaven British Passport holding Don Stewart-Whyte going to Disney World would sail through your focused profiled net.

Do you remember the British (pregnant) EL AL passenger. Her boyfriend tried to put her on board with a bomb in her suitcase. EL AL didn't profile her, they cast their net wide, asked questions and thankfully prevented a inflight bombing.

Go ahead and profile, if that is what you want - but the black hats arn't stupid they will just do an end-run around your profiles and stab you in the back.

I'm not saying don't profile because it's racist, or because it's against human rights or whatever. I'm saying - It won't work!

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