Falcon84
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9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:20 pm

..Without being charged with a crime, I might add.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a...30409990006?ncid=NWS00010000000001

This is the kind of crap that has made the U.S. look so bad in the eyes of world, following the initial outpouring of support following 9/11.

This is stuff that happened in the U.S.S.R, and should NEVER have happened in the U.S. This man committed no crime, excpet he was a Muslim male, and for that, the U.S. kept him confined for 5 years.

That is a crime within itself.

And please-dont' tell me that catching the real terrorists is worth locking up someone with no terrorists ties for 5 years. It isn't, when an innocent man is incarcerated without charge, without consel, and seemingly without hope.
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itsjustme
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:36 pm

Adding insult to injury is the fact that no one will be held accountable for stealing 5 years of this innocent man's life.
 
ETStar
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:52 pm

... and this has me wondering how many more are in jail yet still not charged over the WTC attacks...
 
Mir
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
This man committed no crime, excpet he was a Muslim male, and for that, the U.S. kept him confined for 5 years.

Well, let's not say that he committed no crime. He did stay in the country longer than he was supposed to (a visa violation), and with him being Middle Eastern added to that, it's not hard to see why the authorities would have been interested in him.

His actions being suspicious, however, do not merit him being held in limbo for five years, particularly when he was apparently found not to be a threat in November of 2001. He should have been released right then and there, and put right into hearings as to what should happen to him, since he couldn't stay in the United States without being granted asylum.

That's a pretty big black eye for the US judicial system as far as I'm concerned.

-Mir
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cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:33 pm

Two sides to every story. We remember the New York Times fiasco a few months ago when they published another sob story like that, only see published elsewhere that their "victim" came from a whole family of convicted, hardened terrorists.

US authorities would never keep a man in custody just for the fun of it. There must have been some reason for their suspicion (rightly or wrongly) for which we don't see a hint in this article, which only gives one side of the story.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Falcon84
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:11 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):

Leave it to Charles to justify the unjistifiable! Thanks, Cfalk, for coming to the aid of the government!
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MattRB
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:33 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
There must have been some reason for their suspicion

Suspicion != Proof. Or are you not in favor of that whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
US authorities would never keep a man in custody just for the fun of it.



Quoting Tom Hay - AP:

The veiled accusations and vehement denials would continue for nearly five years - despite official findings in 2001 that he had no terrorist links and in 2003 that authorities had violated his rights by colluding to keep him in custody.

...

The FBI grillings stopped sometime in November 2001, when an internal report was prepared saying he was cleared. On paper, he was no longer a terror suspect.

No one bothered to tell him.

Apparently, they did.
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itsjustme
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:19 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
only see published elsewhere that their "victim" came from a whole family of convicted, hardened terrorists.

Ah yes, the ol' "guilt by association" sentence. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all for looking at someone a little harder when they either associate with undesirables or even come from a family of such but to prison them solely for that reason....sorry, there's just no justification for that.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
There must have been some reason for their suspicion

Good boy. Corrupt government leaders thrive on the blind faith you exhibit.
 
cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:52 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):


Leave it to Charles to justify the unjistifiable! Thanks, Cfalk, for coming to the aid of the government!

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just saying we don't have the full story.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 7):
Ah yes, the ol' "guilt by association" sentence. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all for looking at someone a little harder when they either associate with undesirables or even come from a family of such but to prison them solely for that reason....sorry, there's just no justification for that.

If your whole family, including both your mother and father are convicted extremists with Al Qaeda ties, when your brother is Al Qaeda, and you trained in an Al Qaeda camp, I think that is more than just association.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
dl021
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:32 pm

Has anyone here asked why he was seeking asylum in Canada, where he was taken into custody, on the eve of the attacks?

He, by his own explanation, entered this country under false premises, and instead of explaining his situation to US authorities he tried to leave at a particular time which turned out to either be incredibly bad timing for an Algerian air force officer acting squirrely, or something else.

I don't think he should have been kept for 5 years unless they were planning a tribunal for the guy and did not think they had enough for a court case after the USSC decision, but that's another topic.

Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.
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MattRB
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.

What do you expect? The government, by its own admission, had zero evidence and had cleared him by November 2001. They then kept him imprisoned for another four years, despite that fact.

Tell me, what conclusion do you want us to draw from that evidence?
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
dl021
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 10):
What do you expect? The government, by its own admission, had zero evidence and had cleared him by November 2001. They then kept him imprisoned for another four years, despite that fact.

I asked why people don't consider the possibility that he was taken for good reason, and then perhaps the government did not have enough to take him to trial, but still considered him a threat for some undisclosed reason.

People want this war on terror to be one of criminal law, and it's impossible to make it so. There are far too many who immediately assume the worst instead of considering that perhaps what's happening is for our benefit.

I said that if this guy was held by mistake then that's wrong, but all we have is the opinion of the writer of that article and the guy. I did not see where any DHS people were allowed to explain the whole thing.

I don't know that we have enough to assume the worst.
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ThePRGuy
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

This is shocking - and your right - this is partly how the US gets its bad image in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 1):
Adding insult to injury is the fact that no one will be held accountable for stealing 5 years of this innocent man's life.

Yeah, thats rubbing salt into the wound.

Thanks
PR
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Falcon84
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
If your whole family, including both your mother and father are convicted extremists with Al Qaeda ties, when your brother is Al Qaeda, and you trained in an Al Qaeda camp, I think that is more than just association.

Somewhere in Hell, Joe McCarthy is smiling broadly.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.

After the countless lies and half-truths this administration has peddled on the American people, Ian, I have trouble taking the governments' side on almost anything these days.
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dl021
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.

After the countless lies and half-truths this administration has peddled on the American people, Ian, I have trouble taking the governments' side on almost anything these days.

But you agree there is room for error in the initial assumption?
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RAPCON
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:58 pm

I don't understand why this deserter could not have been just deported back to his country. He was not facing any prosecution in Algeria prior to his desertion, and thus would not have been entitled to asylum in this country. If he disagreed with the situation in his country, and the acts of the military, he could've easily resigned his commission--no doubt this is possible in Algeria.
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dl021
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:01 am

He was evidently trying to defect from his own country, which makes me wonder why.

The Algerian government has been in a war against extremist muslims for years (the kind who massacre entire villages who don't cooperate) and he was running from the government. More questions.
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777236ER
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I asked why people don't consider the possibility that he was taken for good reason, and then perhaps the government did not have enough to take him to trial, but still considered him a threat for some undisclosed reason.

Your disregard of habeas corpus makes you just as bad, if not worse, than the terrorists.
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Falcon84
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
He was evidently trying to defect from his own country, which makes me wonder why.

Read the article again, Ian. He says why-he became dissilusioned with what he was seeing in his own nation.
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RAPCON
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
dissilusioned

I'm "dissilusioned" about a lot of things in the US, but I suck it up and deal with it.

"Dillisusioned"? Sounds fishy to me. Most important he was neither being asked to persecute anyone, nor was he the target of any government (or islamo-fascist) persecution.

Seems to me that absent something "fishy", he was just looking to go to one of the countries with big BX's, and great welfare laws.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
777236ER
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 19):
"fishy"

With your disregard for habeas corpus, maybe you and DL021 should join up and form a group.
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dl021
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
He was evidently trying to defect from his own country, which makes me wonder why.

Read the article again, Ian. He says why-he became dissilusioned with what he was seeing in his own nation.

I'm going to read alot more about this. Remember that I don't excuse him being held if there was no reason, I'm simply saying that it looks like there's two sides to this. You appear to be taking his word for it. I'm not ready to do that.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I asked why people don't consider the possibility that he was taken for good reason, and then perhaps the government did not have enough to take him to trial, but still considered him a threat for some undisclosed reason.

Your disregard of habeas corpus makes you just as bad, if not worse, than the terrorists.

I guess President Lincoln was worse than terrorists then. I don't believe that the terrorists merit protection under our civil laws. I believe we're in a war, and during wars prisoners are held until the war is over, and they have no civil rights while that's happening.

Now, am I going to call you a terrorist sympathizer because you demand that foreign terrorist suspects who are acting funky while we're being attacked and lying to get into this country get treated like citizens? I don't know....do you think it's productive to get really insulting?
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baroque
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Without being charged with a crime, I might add.

First the Time article and now this in the one night, too much already Falcon. But an interesting article to read just after watching Andrew Denton interview the admirable Major Michael Mori, the Marine corps defender for David Hicks, a long term resident of Guantanamo. What Mori made clear was if you were a US citizen and you committed a crime, you could expect to know what the crime was supposed to be and would go through a proper court procedure. If you were not a US citizen, forget it - so far. And he does not seem optimistic that the next try from Congress will be any better.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 19):
"fishy"

With your disregard for habeas corpus, maybe you and DL021 should join up and form a group.

Mori makes it clear that so far, if you are not a US citizen habeas corpus is not a concept the US knows about. If it were not serious, his account of the charges would be funny. That seems to me to be the residual gripe about the Bush administration, the are hopelessly incompetent as well. And the most public demo has been after Katrina.

But as was pointed out in another thread, the extent to which the 9/11 commission recommendations have not been acted upon is another disgrace. For some reason, they seem to think having some folk locked up is progress.

Mori pointed out that some who were directly associated with the Taliban government have since completed studies at US universities while the likes of Hicks and this other guy are locked away in solitary.
 
777236ER
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
I don't believe that the terrorists merit protection under our civil laws.

What nonsense is this? A person only becomes a 'terrorist' in the eyes of the law when they are charged, tried and convicted. You would throw away our laws and legal precident - the things that made the West what it is today?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):

Now, am I going to call you a terrorist sympathizer because you demand that foreign terrorist suspects who are acting funky while we're being attacked and lying to get into this country get treated like citizens?

A suspect is a suspect and is INNOCENT until proven guilty. This is basis of the entire legal system throughout the Western world. You're willing to disregard that, and with it change entirely the way the West works. To me, that makes you as much of a terrorist as anyone else who wants to change our way of life.
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dl021
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
A person only becomes a 'terrorist' in the eyes of the law when they are charged, tried and convicted.

So, the guys who flew the jets into the buildings weren't terrorists because they had not been tried? The people who tried to bring liquid bombs onto the airplanes the other day weren't terrorists? You are applying our level of civilization to other places where they'll use it against us. Our criminal justice system is designed to work on people who simply want to advance their own cause through crime or murder on an individual scale, not on people looking to destroy our society through large scale massacre, or terrorize us into changing our foreign policies.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
You would throw away our laws and legal precident - the things that made the West what it is today?

Never would I throw out our system. I'm also not prepared to be strangled by people using it against us. I won't let people waging war against us hide behind our civil law. Do you think we should send our law enforcement personnel to Afghanistan to deal with people who violate our laws, or do you think we should send Marines to deal with them?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
A suspect is a suspect and is INNOCENT until proven guilty.

So what you're saying is that you think we should treat the war on terror as a criminal matter and try to bring the terrorists to justice by our internal standards when they don't even come from the same level of civilization much less a similar justice system?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
To me, that makes you as much of a terrorist as anyone else who wants to change our way of life.

And there's where you're turning hysterical and crying about the sky falling. I simply don't see the need to apply civil law to the war on terror when it prevents us from stopping the enemy. Do you think that the latest investigation into the British Muslim plans for attack kept legal niceties all the way around (do you really think that the allied intelligence services that conducted most of the investigations did anything similar)? Did the SAS play fair when dealing with IRA terrorists? Are we supposed to allow people to hurt us simply because we don't have enough evidence to take them to our civil courts, or should we act to prevent people from hurting us and accept the possibility that we'll be wrong sometimes but feel better safe than sorry?

I'm no terrorist, but you are for inflicting those accusations on me. By accusing me of being that which I'm not and seeking to discredit my thoughts you're acting the same way that you are accusing the authorities of acting.
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baroque
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
I don't believe that the terrorists merit protection under our civil laws.

What nonsense is this? A person only becomes a 'terrorist' in the eyes of the law when they are charged, tried and convicted. You would throw away our laws and legal precident - the things that made the West what it is today?

'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards.' from Chapter 12 of Alice's adventures in Wonderland. I wonder if Carroll ever thought it would happen this way. It is a worry reading that chapter, because the convergence between that and the military commissions is just too close.

http://www.online-literature.com/carroll/alice/12/
 
cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
A suspect is a suspect and is INNOCENT until proven guilty. This is basis of the entire legal system throughout the Western world. You're willing to disregard that, and with it change entirely the way the West works. To me, that makes you as much of a terrorist as anyone else who wants to change our way of life.

Hang on there.

The Geneva Conventions recognize that in times of war, the criminal justice system is not used, right? Simply being a member of the opponent's armies is sufficient cause to keep you in confinement indefinately (until the war is over - i.e. you are no longer a threat if you are released and rejoin your people).

Think of the principle behind this. While the criminal justice system is designed to catch and punish people after they have done something wrong, the idea of POWs is purely preventative. Even if you never lifted a gun, or did anything whatsoever to the other side, you can be held for years, decades. This is to prevent you from rejoining your comrades and fighting. Unlike the criminal justice system, the POW system is meant to prevent you from doing anything in the future, regardless of your past actions. This is totally opposite to the criminal system. As a POW, you are considered guilty until the end of the war, and that has been written into international law.

We in the west do not want to admit it, but we are in fact in a war. There is an army of people out there who have sworn to destroy us and to force everyone to accept Islamic law. Even if only 1% of the Muslim world support this, that is still over 10 million people, and it is estimated that they have the support of between 10 and 20% of the muslim population, with is nearly the population of the US. This isn't a police issue here. It's a war, they have declared it in the mosques, madrasas and caves, and there will come a time when we will have to realize it as well. Recognition of the Gitmo prisoners as POWs is the first step, IMHO.

Unfortunately, we will have to make up some rules as we go, because the Geneva Conventions were never written for such a transnational kind of war, where there are no borders, front lines on maps, etc. One side fights with no rules whatsoever, in addition, so fair play is never going to be achievable.

So don't go quoting the criminal system to me. I don't want to have to investigate and arrest people after they have blown up San Diego Harbor, I want to be able to take them out of action before they have a chance to even get close to it.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
777236ER
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:00 am

The Geneva Convention was always written with a traditional WWI-style war in mind. The POW rules were clearly designed to apply to a traditional soldier, wearing a uniform, attacking military targets, with a gun in his hand.

The problem that you've quite rightly alluded to is that a new international set of laws needs to be drawn up to deal with the current threat. The limbo we've been in since the war in Afghanistan can't go on.

The danger with suggesting that the threat justifies suspension of habeas corpus is that exactly the same logic can be used to support many different things. What with the 'War on Drugs', does it become acceptable to pre-emptively arrest and hold inner-city males, on the premise that they might commit a crime? Single, white males might be the biggest serial killer demographic, should a curfew exist at night for white males past 10pm?

A civilian is ostinsibly a civilian until shown otherwise. Suspicion and association should not be enough to turn a civilian into a soldier in the eyes of the law. Once you start scrapping habeas corpus for civilians, then you open the door for many other 'laws' designed to 'protect society' - ignoring the issues regarding corruption or abuses of power.

Surely you can't suggest that holding a civilian for four years without charge is acceptable? It goes against the very ideals that elevate us above the terrorists.
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MYT332
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
A civilian is ostinsibly a civilian until shown otherwise

Thing is, all this crap is called, "The War On Terror". Terrorists don't wear uniforms generally and they walk amongst us.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
Surely you can't suggest that holding a civilian for four years without charge is acceptable? It goes against the very ideals that elevate us above the terrorists.

It does and thus I don't agree with it.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
new international set of laws needs to be drawn up to deal with the current threat

Quite right if you ask me. Don't forget though that we have already altered some of our law. We can hold somebody without charge for 28 days now?
One Life, Live it.
 
cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
The Geneva Convention was always written with a traditional WWI-style war in mind. The POW rules were clearly designed to apply to a traditional soldier, wearing a uniform, attacking military targets, with a gun in his hand.

Agreed. The Geneva Conventions are entirely inadequate for today's needs (hence the whole debate these past 5 years).

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
The problem that you've quite rightly alluded to is that a new international set of laws needs to be drawn up to deal with the current threat. The limbo we've been in since the war in Afghanistan can't go on.

Agree that new rules need to be agreed on, but while we wait 20 years for the UN to organize this, are we supposed to wait, or simply deal with things as best we can in the meantime, in a legal vacuum?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
The danger with suggesting that the threat justifies suspension of habeas corpus is that exactly the same logic can be used to support many different things. What with the 'War on Drugs', does it become acceptable to pre-emptively arrest and hold inner-city males, on the premise that they might commit a crime? Single, white males might be the biggest serial killer demographic, should a curfew exist at night for white males past 10pm?

Good point. So far the only prevention of such abuse of anti-terror laws isa policy issue, rather than law. This should be rectified, but at the cost of halting all current anti-terrorist ops?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
A civilian is ostinsibly a civilian until shown otherwise. Suspicion and association should not be enough to turn a civilian into a soldier in the eyes of the law. Once you start scrapping habeas corpus for civilians, then you open the door for many other 'laws' designed to 'protect society' - ignoring the issues regarding corruption or abuses of power.

Surely you can't suggest that holding a civilian for four years without charge is acceptable? It goes against the very ideals that elevate us above the terrorists.

The problem with terrorists is that by definition they are civilians. If they were in uniform, carried rank insignia or other internationally acceptable symbol of a legitimate fighter, we wouldn't have all these problems.

In my mind, the responsibility for civilians wrongly imprisoned for suspicion of being a terrorist rests mostly on the heads of the terrorists themselves, just as I blame them for the civilian deaths that result when we have to hit a civilian building in which they are hiding. It is because of their behaviour that we are forced to take such drastic action where real civilians can be hurt. Of course, that doesn't help the victims - if you ever manage to get Osama Bin Ladin into a Civil Courtroom, let me know. But I don't think anyone in the US military, from the lowest private to Rumsfeld and Bush, would knowingly imprison a person who they know for a fact poses no danger to anyone. The fact that terrorists hide among civilians makes it inevitable that mistakes will be made, and there is no getting around that unless you can convince the terrorists to carry uniforms.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
777236ER
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 29):

In my mind, the responsibility for civilians wrongly imprisoned for suspicion of being a terrorist rests mostly on the heads of the terrorists themselves

That's evidently true. But just as we should be protecting the lives of our civilians, we should also be protecting our way of life. That includes our laws, and things like habeas corpus.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 29):
But I don't think anyone in the US military, from the lowest private to Rumsfeld and Bush, would knowingly imprison a person who they know for a fact poses no danger to anyone.

That's remarkably trusting for someone who's apparently right wing and libertarian. Abuses of power have happened, and will continue to happen. There has to be checks and balances installed throughout the system - if only to prevent a future government from taking advantage and imposing fascist methods on us.
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DrDeke
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
What nonsense is this? A person only becomes a 'terrorist' in the eyes of the law when they are charged, tried and convicted. You would throw away our laws and legal precident - the things that made the West what it is today?

It's funny how there seem to be so many more non-Americans expressing these sentiments on this forum than Americans, even though the sentiments were once considered an important part of the very foundation of America...



Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):

I'm no terrorist, but you are for inflicting those accusations on me.

You're a terrorist! No, you're a terrorist!. Nice; very mature.

So, accusing someone of being a terrorist now makes the accuser a terrorist? We better lock up everyone at DHS, quick!


-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It isn't, when an innocent man is incarcerated without charge, without consel, and seemingly without hope.



Quoting MattRB (Reply 6):
Or are you not in favor of that whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing?

Where does it say he is a citizen of the United States and therefore eligible for all the rights and responsibilities of said citizenship?

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 7):
Ah yes, the ol' "guilt by association" sentence.

How many radical eskimos other than Steven Segal have blown up buildings, and ships in the past 13 years?

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 15):
I don't understand why this deserter could not have been just deported back to his country.

Correct. He should have been on the first plane back to Algeria so Falcon and others could then complain about how we had returned an innocent man to meet an even worse fate at the hands of his countrymen. Instead we fed and housed him for five years. Would he have even lived 5 years if we had returned him to face the crime of desertion in Algeria?

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 19):
I'm "dissilusioned" about a lot of things in the US, but I suck it up and deal with it.

 bigthumbsup 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
dl021
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:54 am

Discussions like these get taken off-track rapidly by accusation throwing and screaming bloody murder. The screamers get indignant and then deny starting silliness.

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 31):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):

I'm no terrorist, but you are for inflicting those accusations on me.

You're a terrorist! No, you're a terrorist!. Nice; very mature.

sort of my point...did you not see the added part that questioned the productivity of this behaviour? I guess I called him one back in a later post, but he was terrorizing me by trying to verbally intimidate me through accusation and innuendo....that's how Hitler got started. I want protection!

here's where I thought I clarified my thinking.....

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
Now, am I going to call you a terrorist sympathizer because you demand that foreign terrorist suspects who are acting funky while we're being attacked and lying to get into this country get treated like citizens? I don't know....do you think it's productive to get really insulting?

So...perhaps I should have said "screaming mimi bully" instead of throwing his label back at him, except that bullying is a form of terror, and he seems to be liberal with his use of that word.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
baroque
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:53 pm

The whole focus on a war on terror totally distorts treating possible terrorists. What the terrorists want to do is a crime in any country I know of.

You don't need special laws, you don't need to fiddle with the Geneva convention. Someone who sets off a car bomb, or tries to crash an airplane has committed a criminal act. Just put them before da judge and go from there. Apart from anything else, much cheaper.

Yes, there are conspiracy laws that would cope with the plotting phase as opposed to actual commission of the crime.

This whole problem is another bit of fallout from Bush wanting to have a catchy phrase.

And on the other side, it allows OBL and co to say, Yeah, we are really important, the US has declared WAR on us. They are also able to argue that after five years they are winning. Just don't fall for the trap. They are criminals, treat them as criminals.

Which part of criminals does Bush not understand?
 
cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
You don't need special laws, you don't need to fiddle with the Geneva convention. Someone who sets off a car bomb, or tries to crash an airplane has committed a criminal act. Just put them before da judge and go from there.

To repeat myself, that only deals with an event (possibly costing thousands of lives) that has already happened. I don't want that. I want them stopped long before.

In war, you are allowed to detain enemy troops indefinately simply because they are enemy troops. The simple fact that they are enemy troops is sufficient, because if you let them go they will eventually do you harm. The detention is preventative. He may have no knowledge whatsoever of an attack plan, he was just waiting for orders or an opportunity when he was captured - that is sufficient.

The criminal system is much more demanding. You have to prove that each individual was a knowing part of a specific plot to blow up X aircraft or Y building. A guy who has simply sworn allegience to Osama Bin Ladin or Hezbollah cannot be held very long (if at all) under the criminal system, but there is a good likelyhood that if let go he will eventually find his way into some activity which will get our people killed, and that's what you have to stop, by considering all those with confessed or proven allegience to a terrorist organization as POWs, to be held indefinately (or until the end of the war, which will be decades, probably.)
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
baroque
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:27 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 35):
The criminal system is much more demanding. You have to prove that each individual was a knowing part of a specific plot to blow up X aircraft or Y building. A guy who has simply sworn allegience to Osama Bin Ladin or Hezbollah cannot be held very long (if at all) under the criminal system, but there is a good likelyhood that if let go he will eventually find his way into some activity which will get our people killed, and that's what you have to stop, by considering all those with confessed or proven allegience to a terrorist organization as POWs, to be held indefinately (or until the end of the war, which will be decades, probably.)

Well so far the alternative you are favouring has been acting as a recruiting agent. Even Joe McCarthy never had ambitions to lock folk up on the basis of their thoughts. It they take part in a "plot" (just love the word) then the criminal system will do just fine.

And do let me know how it is that the criminal system works for US citizens but suddenly falls so desperately short in the case of foreign nationals? Come off it, you are pulling my leg aren't you?
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):



Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
Which part of criminals does Bush not understand?

Which part of anything does Bush not understand!
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 35):



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 35):
eventually find his way into some activity which will get our people killed, and that's what you have to stop, by considering all those with confessed or proven allegience

Who on earth are our people? Do you belong to a cult?
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 38):
Who on earth are our people? Do you belong to a cult?

Our people = citizens of the civilized world.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 39):

Thank God for that I was getting worried.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
baroque
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 39):
Our people = citizens of the civilized world.

About the worst thing to do is to divide the world into us and them and this is what "our" people does. This is making the same mistake that some of the terrorists make, but even they are not uniform.

In another thread I commented that while OBL might be crazy, we are stupid, or something similar. And we would never know how to combat him because we don't know what he wants because we have never asked him. I mean it seems silly to me not to try and find out more exactly what he is about. It is all very well to prattle on about Wars but then to totally ignore the guy we are complaining about seems stupid. We are most likely in error, just as some terrorists are in errror. The real woe is that with that approach we will never even know we are in error, let alone what the errors are.

On thinking about it further, it does appear, however, that some of the terrorists are BOTH crazy AND stupid.

Take the Bali bombers and other related terrorist attacks in Indonesia on WESTERN targets. You can assume 90% Muslims for the Indonesians. The first Bali bombs were about 50% Indonesian casualties. The Jakarta Embassy and Hotel bombings were more like 90+% Indonesian casualties. I submit that lot are crazy AND stupid. Their attacks have had more than 50% Muslim victims. Then again, the Salafi creed might think that was OK, but I can tell you the other Indonesians don't agree.

In that case just who might "our" people be? By and large, for the Jemaah Islamiyah bombers, I submit that "our" should certainly include Indonesians.

For all of the victims of those bombings it has been a major tragedy. But for many of the Indonesian survivors it is a far bigger tragedy than for most Australian survivors because we have a better support structure. I do have to congratulate Howard on his excellent efforts to bring assistance to families in Bali who were affected by the bombing.

However, we should not assume that all terrorists will be stupid as well as crazy.

I for one find it strange that we don't spend more time on the "know thine enemy" part of the deal. If we did that, the guy from Canada should not have been locked up for more than a day at most.
 
cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
In another thread I commented that while OBL might be crazy, we are stupid, or something similar.

No, he's not crazy or stupid. He's go**amned EVIL.

Stop the PC bullshit. Something as evil as islamofascism must be crushed. Not negotiated with, not, "let's learn to be nice". All moral relativism will do is get you killed.

BTW, all the moral relativists who demand that everyone be PC? If the Islamofascists do take over, you guys will be the first ones to be killed, along with gays and anyone else who doesn't tow the line.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
turbo7x7
Posts: 242
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
If the Islamofascists do take over, you guys will be the first ones to be killed, along with gays and anyone else who doesn't tow the line.

LOL! Relax, dude. Don't get your panties in a wad. Talk about the islamofascists taking over the world or WWIII being some cataclysmic struggle between two civilizations is just rightie-wingnut delusions. Ain't gonna' happen!  Smile

Anyone remember what the right was saying when the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam? That the spectre of communism was going to spread all over southeast Asia. . . AND EVEN AUSTRALIA.

Well nowadays, Vietnam is one of the "hip" destinations for U.S. backpackers and other types of adventure tourists, and we all know that Boeing has sold some pretty heavy metal to Vietnam Airlines which is OWNED by the COMMUNIST govt. of Vietnam!

And as far as I can tell, no commie Aussies threaten our shores!  Wink


FWIW, I don't think Baroque was talking about a group hug with the islamophucks, just to analyze their thinking and motivation better. That could be a very useful tool in the war on terror.

For example, I would guess OBL doesn't believe half the nonsense he spouts. . . but he says it because it gives him attention and power in the Arab street and it's a good way to get stupid recruits and useful idiots to kill themselves in the sick game he wants to play.

Can OBL and a bunch of wackos really destroy the west? Nah, they just want to stir s*** up and gain power/influence in the Middle East.

That's where the politics of fear and terror come in.

The Bush Admin. NEEDS Osama as an adversary (to stay in power) MORE than OBL and his ilk need the Bush Admin. or the "imperialist yankees" as an adversary/straw man.
 
cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Turbo7x7 (Reply 43):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
If the Islamofascists do take over, you guys will be the first ones to be killed, along with gays and anyone else who doesn't tow the line.

LOL! Relax, dude. Don't get your panties in a wad. Talk about the islamofascists taking over the world or WWIII being some cataclysmic struggle between two civilizations is just rightie-wingnut delusions. Ain't gonna' happen!

I know it won't happen - not in our lifetimes anyway. But their declared purpose is to take over the world, to conquer it in the name of Allah and subjugate all peoples to the will of Allah. They believe that God will help them do that through divine intervention. This is not a delusion, this is what they proclaim in radical mosques from New York to Jakarta. When you deal with people like this who have no fear of death, who hate everything that is not like them and who believe that God will reward their murdering of anyone who does not believe in Allah (or who simply are guilty of living in a non-Dhimmi state), this is more than a delusion - it's a friggin' threat.

Quoting Turbo7x7 (Reply 43):
Anyone remember what the right was saying when the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam? That the spectre of communism was going to spread all over southeast Asia. . . AND EVEN AUSTRALIA.

Luckily, communism is self-destructive. The only way they could survive was to give up much of their communist ideology, which suits us just fine. We did not know that would happen back in the 60s.

Quoting Turbo7x7 (Reply 43):
Can OBL and a bunch of wackos really destroy the west?

No, but they believe that if they kill enough infidels, thereby showing their devotion to Allah, Allah will consider them worthy of a little divine intervention and destroy the west himself.

Quoting Turbo7x7 (Reply 43):
The Bush Admin. NEEDS Osama as an adversary (to stay in power) MORE than OBL and his ilk need the Bush Admin. or the "imperialist yankees" as an adversary/straw man.

If you'll remember, Bush was voted into office on a largely isolationist policy. He had little interest in foreign affairs until 9/11. The Islamofascists themselves are responsible for Bush turning his eye on them.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
US authorities would never keep a man in custody just for the fun of it. There must have been some reason for their suspicion (rightly or wrongly) for which we don't see a hint in this article, which only gives one side of the story.

Sir, I must ask you...do you have no shame?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 45):
Sir, I must ask you...do you have no shame?

You dare to ask me that?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
Something as evil as islamofascism must be crushed.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 42):
If the Islamofascists do take over, you guys will be the first ones to be killed, along with gays and anyone else who doesn't tow the line.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 44):
The Islamofascists themselves are responsible for Bush turning his eye on them.

Hmmm, when the term Islamofascists becomes part of one's daily lexicon....it is obvious to me that the person in question watches far too much Fox News.

My prescription for this malady is to quickly turn off the television set.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:24 am

If this person was so dangerous that they were justified in locking him up for 5 years...as some here are saying.....Why did they let him go now....Would he still not be as dangerous perhaps more so as he is now pissed off...


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
cfalk
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RE: 9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 47):
Hmmm, when the term Islamofascists becomes part of one's daily lexicon....it is obvious to me that the person in question watches far too much Fox News.

fas·cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm)

n : a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)

Is·lam ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-läm, z-, släm, z-)
n. : A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.

The declared goal of Hezbollah, Achmedinnerjacket, and other such people is that the whole world be subjugated to Islam, either as muslims or Dhimmis. That seems to be perfectly fitting of the term Islamofascist.

It may be politically incorrect to call a rose by its name, but denying what it is will not change its nature.

Oh, and BTW, Fox News is not broadcast over here.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.

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