texdravid
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Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:27 pm

A very elegant and concise pro-profiling letter written by Lord Stevens.

I cannot help but agree.
Political correctness is severely hampering the ability to identify and handle islamo-terrorists worldwide. Of that, there is little doubt.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/lordstevens.shtml
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halls120
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:29 pm

Wow. If an article like this was printed in a US newspaper, the outrage would be tremendous.

I do like the following points he made, though:

Quote:
Well, Muslim terrorism in Britain is based in, has its roots in, and grows in, our Muslim community. The madmen of 7/7 and other suicide bombings didn't hide among the Hindu communities, worship in the Sikh temples, recruit at Catholic churches, did they? It may be true that events in Iraq have angered sections of the Muslim community. I have no doubts, whatever Tony Blair says, that it was a catalyst. I also think it's entirely fair for Muslims, if they wish, to vocally oppose Britain's continuing involvement there.

I can recognise, too, that recent events in Lebanon inflame some people, and they want their voices of protest heard. The absolutely unacceptable problem is that this opposition is used by too many to turn a blind eye to, or excuse, terrorists in their midst.

Blasting a passenger airliner out of the sky, killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children, is NEVER acceptable. Under any circumstances. There is NEVER an excuse.

A terrible tragedy costing Muslim lives in Lebanon or Iraq or Afghanistan is never ever an excuse for terrorism here.

It is totally unacceptable, totally wrong. What one party perceives as a wrong, no matter how strongly they feel, does not, in turn, justify another wrong being done to avenge it.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
jaysit
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:51 pm

I saw Mary Schiavo on the news last night and she made some very valid points. For one, in today's world, it is often hard to determine one's religious affiliation based on the color of one's skin or one's perceived ethnicity. This is very true - Muslims come in all shades from white to black, many Arabs are in fact Christian, and you have a sizeable number of Iranian expat Jews and Zoroastrians (as likely to be terrorists as Clara Peller of "where's the beef" fame). Most people come in shades of brown, and its unlikely that the average TSA agent can differentiate between an Indian Hindu or a Jordanian Arab or for that matter, a NY-rican. But that having been said, she did come up with a rather intelligent solution, some of which I'm summarizing in my own way.

1. Skip screening the 90 year grandmas, valley girls with "my little pony" T-shirts, hapless mothers with babies, lesbian partners on their way to the island of Sapphos, the woman in the sari with the big dot on her forehead, etc.

2. Screen individuals based on nationality (which I believe many airports do at present - I have Pakistani friends who tell me that they show up at the airport at least 3 hours before an international flight because they know they're about to be screened heavily), and if it is evident that they have recently travelled to certain Arab/Muslim countries (which means that the yuppie couple who went to Marrakesh for their honeymoon should be let go, while the 32 year old man who made several trips to Saudi Arabia and Yemen will undergo greater scrutiny). Of course, this is possible only on international flights.

3. Throw other people of other races into the mix, but chosen at random. This does 2 things - it reduces the appearance of singling out certain people of a race or religion, and it also ensures (partially) that terrorists will not be emboldened to either convince those who don't fit the profile to carry explosives for them, or to smuggle explosives on board using unknowing carriers.

4. Use common sense. If the passenger checking in for a BA flight to New York has a name like Nassir Ali but is obviously a financial analyst for Merrill Lynch and travels to Manhattan 10 times a year for business, let him go for crying out loud. If the passenger's name is Nassir Ali, but he was obviously born Nigel Alcomb, then make sure you screen him.

Some good old fashioned common sense combined with a bit of courtesy and cunning will go a long way instead of forcing grandma to take off her panty hose, or to herd everyone who comes in any shade of "brown" into a big pen for a bout of over the top screening.
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Gilligan
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:57 pm

He is right on target with this.....

"I'm a white 62-year-old 6ft 4ins suit-wearing ex-cop—I fly often, but do I really fit the profile of suicide bomber? Does the young mum with three tots? The gay couple, the rugby team, the middle-aged businessman?

No. But they are all getting exactly the same amount and devouring huge resources for no logical reason whatsoever. Yet the truth is Islamic terrorism in the West has been universally carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance, almost always travelling alone or in very small groups. A tiny percentage, I bet, of those delayed today have such characteristics.
"

and this as well.....

"In all my years at the front line of fighting terrorism, one truth was always clear — communities beat terrorists, not governments or security forces. But communities can't beat terrorism unless they have the will to do so. My heart sank this week as I saw and read the knee-jerk reaction of friends and neighbours of those arrested in this latest incident, insisting it was all a mistake and the anti-terrorist squad had the wrong people.

I have no idea whether those arrested are guilty or not. But neither have those friends and neighbours. They spoke as if it was inconceivable such a thing could happen in their community; that those arrested were all good Muslims; that Islam is a religion of peace so no Muslim could dream of planning such an act.
"

The heck with PC. Cops don't radar streets they don't think they will catch a speeder on, why are we wasting enormous amounts of time and energy scouring peoples bags that have not shown any intention or willingness to bomb airplanes? Those of you in the Muslim community, why can't you turn in suspicious persons or report those that are making threatening statements? What is the problem with that?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 1):
The madmen of 7/7 and other suicide bombings didn't hide among the Hindu communities, worship in the Sikh temples, recruit at Catholic churches, did they? It

From the failed July 21, 2005 plot:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europe/july-dec05/europe_7-29.html

"Certainly there's the obvious similarities of the targets, the methods, the type of explosives. And, in fact, one of the four bombers in the first attack is a convert of Jamaican origin which brings it a little closer to this group of East African dissent."

From the recent terror plot:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1165972006

"A TEENAGER who attended a well-known grammar school and recently converted to Islam was among the suspects arrested over the foiled terror plot, it emerged last night."

These references were easily found with a cursory Google search. Did Lord Stevens propose that we profile also for those races who have a propensity for converting to Islam as well? I didn't see that part. That's the extreme his idea would have to be taken.
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cornish
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
These references were easily found with a cursory Google search. Did Lord Stevens propose that we profile also for those races who have a propensity for converting to Islam as well? I didn't see that part. That's the extreme his idea would have to be taken.

Yes this was my initial thought when reading this. Its easy to pick out any Arabs and treat them differently, but what about the large numbers of Muslim Africans. Do you treat all black people the same way too and assume they may be muslims ?
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
RAPCON
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:30 pm

I for one, would like to endorse Lord Stevens to be a candidate for higher office! Well Done!
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cfalk
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
These references were easily found with a cursory Google search. Did Lord Stevens propose that we profile also for those races who have a propensity for converting to Islam as well? I didn't see that part. That's the extreme his idea would have to be taken.

Absolutely, but race is not the only criteria. Age is another one. Any man, younger than around 40 should get more scrutiny than, say a 60 year old businessman of any color, simply because suicide bombers tend to be young men. Name is another. Beards may be another. travel history would be another, etc etc.

Profiling is not just race. It's examining a whole package and seeing if the person fits the profile of terrorists who have been identified in the past.

That doesn't mean you give Granny a total wave-off. Check her normally. But a guy travelling alone, or with other guys, with names like Yousef Ali, damn right you look at them extra carefully.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:05 pm

I agree with the suggestions made by Lord Stevens. However, there are more ways to increase security without menacing the average Jane and John Doe too much.

I would, for once, like to see that the screeners really pay attention to what they are doing. Most of the times, its a jolly coffee round minus the coffee, talking about everything they experienced over the weekend or last night. If not that, the disrespect for what the are doing mirrors in their bored faces. .

The rules for profiling must be set by experts and there is certainly no need to treat all black people the same way, but names tell a lot about the religion, not only the colour of the skin. In a lot of countries, the religion is shown in the passport. But these are details which should not even be discussed in the public. The fact is, suicide bombing is carried out by young muslims and it is their choice. It is the choice of the Muslim community, to single them out, shun them instead of making them martyrs, call them cowards who deliberately kill hundreds of people instead of calling them heros.

As long as this is not done, no muslim community in any country has a reason to complain about profiling.
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ltbewr
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:16 pm

Profiling, especially if done on religious grounds, could be considered a violation of international human rights treaties that the UK and other countries are signors of. It is also well established that profiling in some forms may not pick up many potential terrorists and indeed create other long term problems with certain parts of society.
After 9/11, the USA government 'profiled' and arrested 1000's of men whom were Islamic and here on expired visas, while not doing so to 10,000's of non-Islamic persons whom were also in the USA on expired visas. The disproportate choice to profile only them and their treatment of them by police and in their detention created anger throughout the Islamic communities. Them made people in those communities to shut up to the authorites about info that could be used to prevent the next terror attack.
In the later 1990's in my home state of New Jersey (and this existed all over the USA), racial/ethnic profiling by police as to drivers on our roads became a real political hot topic. Police would disproportionally pull over black and hispanic men for minor moving or vehicle safety violations (like a stop light not working). Why? because they were informally trained or from their experiences came to believe that a disproportionate number of blacks and hispanics were transporting drugs. Making a big drug bust was something that could get a police officer a nice raise or promotion, so you had a perverse incentive to do such profiling. Problem is that blacks and hispanics became very angry and uncooperative as to police officers. After a few well publicised challanges and incidents of the 'driving while black' situations, cameras were put into cop cars, police had to undergo specialized and community awareness training to reduce these use of such profiling. It may have helped the drug trade, but it helped a lot with curbing a lot of anger and even violence as to police.
My point is that profiling, while it seems to be a quick and easy way to prevent terror or crime, is neither. It takes people in the communities to see that something is amiss and be able to turn info the police without fear for themselves or their communities. Poorly done profiling takes away that tool.
 
jaysit
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Profiling is not just race. It's examining a whole package and seeing if the person fits the profile of terrorists who have been identified in the past.

Exactly.

Btw, Lord Stevens does not endorse "racial profiling" as the title of this thread incorrectly suggests. What he does suggest is "passenger profiling" which would take into account a variety of factors, not just race. Race, in and by itself, is meaningless, because Muslims come in all colors, races, ethnicities, as do Arabs. And folks like the 9-11 hijackers and those arrested last week in the UK share the same racial background with hundreds of millions of people who are neither Muslim, nor Arab.

There's a big difference between a travelling mullah with a can of hair spray and shaving gel in his carry-on, and a 16-year old gum snapping bored British girl of Bangladeshi descent off to Dhaka to see Grandma with her Mom in tow.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 11):
Btw, Lord Stevens does not endorse "racial profiling" as the title of this thread incorrectly suggests.

I think he does. That's how I interpreted:

"Yet the truth is Islamic terrorism in the West has been universally carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance"

Can't see any other way of reading it.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
But a guy travelling alone, or with other guys, with names like Yousef Ali, damn right you look at them extra carefully.

What about "Don Stewart-Whyte"? Remember, the 9/11 hijackers were clean-shaven.

The fact is, that if one were to narrow down only for the most intense security based on the "profile" you mentioned, several known terrorists would slip through with the lightest of reviews, the exact same type of security you're appearing to propose for a 60-year-old grandmother.
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cornish
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
What about "Don Stewart-Whyte"? Remember, the 9/11 hijackers were clean-shaven.

Or Jermaine Lindsey - one of the 7/7 bombers...

Stopping the terrorists should happen with good intelligence and action long before anyone gets near an airport.

how many major terrorist plots been foiled by security systems at airports as opposed to surveillence and intelligence long before anyone got there ?

If people really believe that beefed up security systems at airports is the way forward to stop terrorists, they really need to be asking some hard questions of the intelligence services of their countries.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
MattRB
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 10):
Profiling, especially if done on religious grounds, could be considered a violation of international human rights treaties that the UK and other countries are signors of.

My human right to be able to travel safely and not get blown up by fanatics trumps that right.

Sorry, but the facts are that these attacks are being carred out by Muslims. The Muslim community doesn't like the fact that they're going to be scrutinized more carefully at airports and by the public at large? Too bad. Some of their brethren have hijacked their religion and most of them have passively sat by while it's been done. They're now reaping the fruits of their inaction.

[Edited 2006-08-15 17:24:53]
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MDorBust
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:28 am

Profiling is bad, blah blah blah.

 sigh 

Profiling is a tool that needs to be employed in a whole spectrum of tools. It is not, and should not be used, as a one stop crime fighting solution. However, when used in conjunction with other methods, profiling is a useful and often vital tool.

Don't like being profiled? Tough, there is plenty of statistical analysis to support it.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 13):
The Muslim community doesn't like the fact that they're going to be scrutinized more carefully at airports and by the public at large?

How does a security service determine that a guy named Matt from Canada, who claims not to be of "Muslim appearance" (which you've failed to identify), didn't become a religious fanatic six months prior to his flight, and might be willing to take himself and 300 others down in a fiery ball over the Atlantic?

I'm not against compiling "likely suspects" for any type of crime, but hey, aren't there a group of grannies in jail right now awaiting trial for murder? Are you willing to risk your life over the odds you're indirectly proposing?

There has to be a certain standard set to apply to everyone equally.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:44 am

well, perhaps the light bulb is coming on - ever so dimly - on profiling passengers.

Hell, I've said it every time there's been a terrorist incident since I've been a member here . . . and I'll keep on saying it.

Profile . . . .
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halls120
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
1. Skip screening the 90 year grandmas, valley girls with "my little pony" T-shirts, hapless mothers with babies, lesbian partners on their way to the island of Sapphos, the woman in the sari with the big dot on her forehead, etc.

2. Screen individuals based on nationality (which I believe many airports do at present - I have Pakistani friends who tell me that they show up at the airport at least 3 hours before an international flight because they know they're about to be screened heavily), and if it is evident that they have recently travelled to certain Arab/Muslim countries (which means that the yuppie couple who went to Marrakesh for their honeymoon should be let go, while the 32 year old man who made several trips to Saudi Arabia and Yemen will undergo greater scrutiny). Of course, this is possible only on international flights.

3. Throw other people of other races into the mix, but chosen at random. This does 2 things - it reduces the appearance of singling out certain people of a race or religion, and it also ensures (partially) that terrorists will not be emboldened to either convince those who don't fit the profile to carry explosives for them, or to smuggle explosives on board using unknowing carriers.

4. Use common sense. If the passenger checking in for a BA flight to New York has a name like Nassir Ali but is obviously a financial analyst for Merrill Lynch and travels to Manhattan 10 times a year for business, let him go for crying out loud. If the passenger's name is Nassir Ali, but he was obviously born Nigel Alcomb, then make sure you screen him.

Some good old fashioned common sense combined with a bit of courtesy and cunning will go a long way instead of forcing grandma to take off her panty hose, or to herd everyone who comes in any shade of "brown" into a big pen for a bout of over the top screening.

Excellent advice. I wish someone at TSA would read and heed....

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
These references were easily found with a cursory Google search. Did Lord Stevens propose that we profile also for those races who have a propensity for converting to Islam as well? I didn't see that part. That's the extreme his idea would have to be taken.

One can take any logical proposal and push it to the extreme.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 5):
Yes this was my initial thought when reading this. Its easy to pick out any Arabs and treat them differently, but what about the large numbers of Muslim Africans. Do you treat all black people the same way too and assume they may be muslims ?

Obviously not. And we shouldn't single out every single person who is of arabic descent. But you should take age, race, religion, and past passport stamps into account.

I get extra scrutiny all the time when security personnel look at my passport closely, because I travel to a lot of odd places.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Absolutely, but race is not the only criteria. Age is another one. Any man, younger than around 40 should get more scrutiny than, say a 60 year old businessman of any color, simply because suicide bombers tend to be young men. Name is another. Beards may be another. travel history would be another, etc etc.

Profiling is not just race. It's examining a whole package and seeing if the person fits the profile of terrorists who have been identified in the past.

 checkmark 

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
How does a security service determine that a guy named Matt from Canada, who claims not to be of "Muslim appearance" (which you've failed to identify), didn't become a religious fanatic six months prior to his flight, and might be willing to take himself and 300 others down in a fiery ball over the Atlantic?

profiling doesn't guarantee 100% success, but every cop profiles, whether or not they admit to it, so we might as well come up with a rational basis for their actions.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):
profiling doesn't guarantee 100% success, but every cop profiles, whether or not they admit to it, so we might as well come up with a rational basis for their actions.

I have no problem with the concept of profiling, I really don't. What I do have a problem with is the indignity some show at being scrutinized at all, and the huffy attitude expressed by the author of the article linked, as if he can wave his pen and provide a catch-all solution. Of course young Arab/Muslim men are getting a closer look, I've no doubt in my mind that's a certainty.

What I don't accept is the outlook that you can profile a universally very low risk, whom shouldn't be bothered in pursuit of their "right" to an open and free flow of passengers.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:37 am

Well i am a muslim and have travelled through many airports around the world, and i have never been profiled or singled out due to my appearance. I particularly don't like profiling, it's something i'd rather not see, however i can understand the arguments for it, and i cannot deny that most terrorist acts are committed by muslims. But one must point out, racial profiling will only help up until a certain point. The terrorists are not stupid, they will simply find a way round it. The next hijacking or suicide attempt might not be carried out people of "middle eastern" appearance, but by a gang of people who look like David Beckham or Brad Pitt, i.e caucasian.
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Name is another. Beards may be another.

Names can easily be changed and a Gillette takes care of the beard.
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cfalk
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
What about "Don Stewart-Whyte"? Remember, the 9/11 hijackers were clean-shaven.

The fact is, that if one were to narrow down only for the most intense security based on the "profile" you mentioned, several known terrorists would slip through with the lightest of reviews, the exact same type of security you're appearing to propose for a 60-year-old grandmother.

What's your point? Just because he's clean shaven does not mean he doesn't fit another part of the profile. You seem to think that a person has to match ALL the criteria to be selected for special examination. No. Only one match will do. Match two criteria you get even more attention. Match three and you'd better hope you wiped your ass properly that morning.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
What's your point? Just because he's clean shaven does not mean he doesn't fit another part of the profile.

As I've said, I don't have a problem with profiling. I have a problem with those who feel they're too good to be scrutinized, and claim it infringes upon their "right" to fly. It's a subtle difference. You can't catch everyone through profiling, but you can certainly up the success rate of your goals for security in the first place, which is why I believe it plays an important role.

But if you go back and read the article linked in the OP, a case was made that terrorism is "universally carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance".

I don't agree with that opinion, and wouldn't want my life risked on faulty assessments. Again, set a high standard for all, and if someone presents a particularly high risk, further scrutiny is warranted.

A few times I've related my experience coming out of northern Europe in the mid to late 1980s where everyone had to go down to a room on the tarmac, open their checked luggage for inspection, and board with armed guards both on and surrounding the plane. I was happy to comply. What people are experiencing today is nothing near what measures have been used in the past.
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9VSPO
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):

You'd complain if you didn't get frisked!  Silly
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 24):
You'd complain if you didn't get frisked!

Well there is that.  Wink
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BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:43 am

Profiling is a tool, BUT common sense is better.

I refer to a client of mine, an 86 year old in a wheelchair travelling from MIA to NYC to see her sister on a one way ticket paid in cash got SSSS on her boarding card and still had to have the full security monty at MIA because the computer has flagged her (one way, last minute purchase, cash payment). A quick glance and a little common sense should have been enough.
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comorin
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:39 am

This "Muslim" Community tag doesn't make any sense to me. First of all, we would have to exclude 'nice' people that work at Merrill etc from this list. So are we down to the "Muslim Fruit Seller" community that is supposed to police itself? Given that they are the ones most surprised when somebody becomes a terrorist, are they really the right people to police themselves?

I think the Police on both sides of the pond are deeply frustrated that the cannot penetrate the veil of language, culture and religion. But asking a community to police itself can have unfortunate consequences.

As a citizen of a western country, I do not believe that I have any particular affinity beyond loyalty to nation, and should not be burdened with spying on my fellow man. That is why we subscribe to the Human Rights Declaration. I worry about the resurgence of McCarthyism and the emergence of an informant state. And let's not forget the gruesome legacy of the STAASI.
 
searpqx
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
wouldn't want my life risked on faulty assessments. Again, set a high standard for all, and if someone presents a particularly high risk, further scrutiny is warranted.



Quoting Bhxfaotipyyc (Reply 25):
I refer to a client of mine, an 86 year old in a wheelchair travelling from MIA to NYC to see her sister on a one way ticket paid in cash got SSSS on her boarding card

I think that this is the point that Westy is trying to make. Anybody traveling one way, last minute cash purchase, should get a thorough screening, period. No, its not likely that an elderly invalid woman is a terrorist, but on 9/10, most folks didn't think it likely that planes would be used as missiles. If there is one lesson we should have learned from 50 years of terrorism, is that the terrorists are always looking for a new way to commit their atrocities. And at some point, they will find the 80 year old radical that is more than happy to play the role of martyr.

Then on top the standard screening, that applies to everyone, you apply a second layer of INTELLIGENT profiling - of the type used by the Israelis. Something that looks at everything, from ethnicity to travel pattern to religion, etc.
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davestanKSAN
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RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:59 am

If I could I'd like to quote Mr. SlamClick on something he said about profiling on another recent thread. (apologies to Slam if he doesn't want it posted in this thread)

Quote:
Quoting SlamClick:

One huge mistake evident in the thinking of those here opposed to profiling is that you think it goes like this: "Hey, that guy looks like one of them AyRabs! Better strip search him!" That is not what is being proposed or practiced. A while back I saw an Arab-looking TSA agent wearing some sort of middle-east headware (sorry, I'm ignorant of their meaning) instructing a young white male US Marine to remove the belt from his dress blues before being wanded. Clearly no one was 'profiling' on physical appearance in this situation.

Profiling might involve beginning surveillance on people who call telephone numbers on a list of numbers already on a watch list. It is not profiling on race, it is just wanting to know more about a cellphone customer in East London who is paying good money to call someone in Pakistan (for just one example) who is known to be linked to Al Qaeda. THIS is profiling. It is on the basis of actions, not circumstances of one's birth.

It should be this kind of profiling we're talking about...not racial. I think that it kind of gets lost in translation....profiling automatically is considered racial profiling. Granted, Lord Stevens, as AeroWesty pointed out, said that terrorism is "universally carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance". So in this case, I can see where its easy to mistake the two. The problem arises when people assume every person who is, or even looks Arabic or is a Muslim is already guilty of being a terrorist based solely upon their appearance. There have been plenty of hate crimes committed against Arab looking business owners in recent years.

Again, please re-read Slam's description of profiling, which is IMO opinion the correct way it should be done.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
I don't agree with that opinion, and wouldn't want my life risked on faulty assessments. Again, set a high standard for all, and if someone presents a particularly high risk, further scrutiny is warranted.

  

Dave

[Edited 2006-08-16 04:02:08]

[Edited 2006-08-16 04:02:58]

[Edited 2006-08-16 04:03:45]
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Lord Stevens Endorses Racial Profiling

Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:33 am

Thank goodness for some sensibility....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2313135,00.html

Although this part...
"Three days before last week’s arrests, the highest-ranking Muslim police officer in Britain gave warning that profiling techniques based on physical appearance were already causing anger and mistrust among young Muslims. Tarique Ghaffur, an assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, said: “We must think long and hard about the causal factors of anger and resentment."

Begs the question, Why won't they police their own? Rather than harbor resentment and anger why not do something constructive to change the perception? Starting with informing on radicals in the mosques and rebuking inmans that call for violence against westerners? Perhaps the rest of the western world then have a little sympathy for their plight.
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