qr332
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Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:50 pm

Reports are appearing that the Khiyam prison complex, which was used by the South Lebanon Army (SLA) militia up until the Israeli defeat in 2000 was destroyed by the Israelis (surprise, surprise), as it was being used as a museum to show just how terrible the conditions were in the prison.

The Khiyam prison was used by the SLA, under the full consent of the Israelis, to impriosn both Lebanese and Palestinians, and employed some of the most disgusting and disturbing methods of torture I have ever heard of. Electronic Intifada has pictures from the prison, but even these do not show the true horror of the prison - prisoners were tortured by passing electricity through their fingers and penises, by making prisoners listen to spouses and family members get tortured, sticking prisoners in 90cmx90cm cells for weeks, and many other horrible types of torture.

The thing that is most shocking (well, not really...) about Khiyam is the level of Israeli involvment - the SLA was funded and supported in full by Israel, and there are many prisoner testimonials which speak of Israeli officers being involved in torturing them, teaching the SLA guards how to use effective torture methods, and prisoners hearing Hebrew being spoken around them while hooded during torture. After the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 and the collapse of the SLA, Israel took in many SLA members and granted them citizenship - and many did stay in Israel, despite Hezbollah allowing SLA members to return to the south without harming them.

Now, 6 years on, the Israelis have bombed the prison, a testiment to the horrors in Lebanon during the Israeli occupation - you be the judge, was it done on purpose or by mistake? To me, its way too convenient that a prison so closely associated with Israel's horrific actions in Lebanon was bombed by "accident". Ironically, the prison is sometimes called the Lebanese Auschwitz...

Further reading, very interesting but also very horrific (no graphic images):

Detailed eyewitness accounts from the prisoners themselves:
http://www.inminds.co.uk/khiam-prison.html

Human Rights Watch report:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/10/28/israb12795.htm

BBC story on the prison from 2000:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/766746.stm

Thoughts?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:02 pm

My thoughts? All I see is a building, somewhere in a desert. If I choose to believe the accompanying text, it might be a jail. I don't see a single photograph of any 'torture' device, no restraints, just a box with a cartoon painted inside it.

I didn't check on the other links.

Anyway, I don't see much point to this thread. I think every one on this planet has already choses sides.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
My thoughts? All I see is a building, somewhere in a desert. If I choose to believe the accompanying text, it might be a jail. I don't see a single photograph of any 'torture' device, no restraints, just a box with a cartoon painted inside it.

I didn't check on the other links.

Then why are you even bothering to reply? The other links confirm how terrible this place was and give a lot of insight as to what happened in the prison.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Anyway, I don't see much point to this thread. I think every one on this planet has already choses sides.

This isn't about choosing sides, its about showing the horror of what happened in Lebanon during the civil war at the hands of both the Lebanese themselves and the Israelis.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
RAPCON
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
Then why are you even bothering to reply?



Whoa! Take a chill pill, or its desert equivalent! Let the guy speak his mind.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):


This isn't about choosing sides, its about showing the horror of what happened in Lebanon during the civil war at the hands of both the Lebanese themselves and the Israelis.

No doubt that horros occur during civil wars, just like they occur at this moment in the Bekaa Valley at the hands of Hezbollah and its Syrian and Iranian controllers. I wonder if all foreign powers, specially the outsider moslem countries that are intent on controlling Lebanon thru their puppet terrorist force, kept their hands off Lebanon, what the end result would be.

p.s. Manking at its worse is found in a lot of places, not only in a prison during a civil war.

[Edited 2006-08-17 16:11:48]
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
Then why are you even bothering to reply? The other links confirm how terrible this place was and give a lot of insight as to what happened in the prison.

They tell us how terrible it was before 2000, if you are to believe the reports.

Tell us, what would be the point in destroying the building as a cover up when hezbollah has been in control of the facility for six years now?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 3):
Whoa! Take a chill pill, or its desert equivalent! Let the guy speak his mind.

I have nothing against him speaking his mind, but when he claims that he isn't even sure if the text is believable after I provided 4 different links verifying it, which he didn't even bother clicking, then he really shouldn't bother posting.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 3):
No doubt that horros occur during civil wars, just like they occur at this moment in the Bekaa Valley at the hands of Hezbollah and its Syrian and Iranian controllers.

 rotfl  What horrors would that be? Please, show me any horror that Hezbollah has committed against Lebanese people in the Bekaa Valley, and take whatever you want from me.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 3):
I wonder if all foreign powers, specially the outsider moslem countries that are intent on controlling Lebanon thru their puppet terrorist force, kept their hands off Lebanon, what the end result would be

You see, this is the Fox News image exactly - Iran is controlling Lebanon and Hezbollah. Hezbollah is an independant organisation with close ties to Iran, it in no way represents Iran in Lebanon nor does it control Lebanon. Hezbollah is an independant organisation that is exteremley important to the Shi'aa community in the country, as Hezbollah provides them with many services they would not get otherwise.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 3):
p.s. Manking at its worse is found in a lot of places, not only in a prison during a civil war.

But this comes pretty damn close - you want to talk about terrorist factions? This thread provides the perfect example: Israel and the SLA. Why aren't Israel not branded terrorist supporters? I mean, surely the above actions are more than enough to warrant the SLA being called a terrorist faction, and since Israel not only fully supported them, but have also provided them with citizenship, it should be branded as a terrorist-supporting country.

Now, can we please stick to the topic at hand?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
They tell us how terrible it was before 2000, if you are to believe the reports.

Tell us, what would be the point in destroying the building as a cover up when hezbollah has been in control of the facility for six years now?

It is all up there bout how horrible the place was before 2000 - imagine being made to watch your spouse being tortured through electrecution and other methods and not being able to do anything, or being hung by a pole for hours. Whats wrong, too frightened to find out what kind of people Israel supported up until 2000?

And as for what the point would be, its very simple: since 2000, the Khiyam prison has been a museum open to the public, which allows people to see the horrors of what the Israel-supported SLA did. By destroying this building, much fewer people will be able to see the kind of things Israel supported, and is basically erasing part of the country's dark past in Lebanon.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
RAPCON
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
What horrors would that be? Please, show me any horror that Hezbollah has committed against Lebanese people in the Bekaa Valley, and take whatever you want from me.

Mmmm....let's see, come over to 1600 Penn Ave., NW, Wash DC, and insult "W" all you want. Nothing will happen to you. Now what would happen to any Lebanese that was to gander tomorrow over to the Bekaa and set up a speaker's area and begin to call Nasrallah "Iran's Bitch"?? Would he be safe?

So YOU PROVE TO THE WORLD that Hezbollah has never committed a single attrocity, a single act of political oppression, a single act of political execution and I'll believe you.

We're all waiting.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 6):
It is all up there bout how horrible the place was before 2000

Yes I know. I looked through you links and sought out some other information on the former prison. I can't help but notice that many of the reports widely varied and were often contradictory. Especially concerning the pressance of Isreali military troops, which varied between once every couple of months to constantly present. Nor can I believe that hearing hebrew spoken means anything, other than someone heard hebrew spoken. Language isn't genetic. I believe that as in all cases, the real truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

As for erasing the past, surely you must know that oral tradition is often far stronger than anything tangible.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7):
Mmmm....let's see, come over to 1600 Penn Ave., NW, Wash DC, and insult "W" all you want. Nothing will happen to you. Now what would happen to any Lebanese that was to gander tomorrow over to the Bekaa and set up a speaker's area and begin to call Nasrallah "Iran's Bitch"?? Would he be safe?

So YOU PROVE TO THE WORLD that Hezbollah has never committed a single attrocity, a single act of political oppression, a single act of political execution and I'll believe you.

Why are you trying to turn attention away from your claim that horrors occur in the Bekaa Valley at the hands of Hezbollah?

I have no idea about what would happen, but it would probably be more of an ass kicking by the people there than being locked up - Lebanon has freedom of speech, believe it or not. Would I not get an ass kicking if I went to rural Texas and started screaming out that Republicans suck? Also, considering your own country, the shining beacon of freedom, has committed acts of political oppression and many political actions that have changed the course of many countries, I wouldn't be pointing fingers if I were you.

Now, can we please stick to the subject?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
Yes I know. I looked through you links and sought out some other information on the former prison. I can't help but notice that many of the reports widely varied and were often contradictory. Especially concerning the pressance of Isreali military troops, which varied between once every couple of months to constantly present. Nor can I believe that hearing hebrew spoken means anything, other than someone heard hebrew spoken. Language isn't genetic. I believe that as in all cases, the real truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Indeed, the reports to vary as to the frequency of the visits, but that is probably due to different prisoners remembering different things which are not always correct. But, one thing is consistent - there were Israeli soldiers present. Also, as for the Hebrew being spoken, I am sure it is much more likely that two SLA soldiers would communicate in Arabic and would not know Hebrew; even if they did, why would they use the language? The truth is indeed probably somewhere in the middle, but one thing is for certain - the Israelis were fully aware and fully supported the whole venture. The SLA, FYI, supported the Phalange militia during the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 (where 2,000 Palestinian refugees were murdered), and all of it was committed under the watch of Israeli troops.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
As for erasing the past, surely you must know that oral tradition is often far stronger than anything tangible.

Very true, yet when you have something tangible where you can see the horror first hand, it is much more tangible. I am sure visiting Auschwitz leaves a much bigger impression than simply hearing about it. Similarly, when you hear about things such as Khiyam, it is very different to actually being given a tour of the place.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

I know a few Vietnam vets who would tell you that this is nothing compared to what they went through.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Anyway, I don't see much point to this thread. I think every one on this planet has already choses sides.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Now, can we please stick to the subject?

Funny.....you're the only one going off on these rants about how everyone needs to stick to the subject.
Crye me a river
 
SlamClick
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:00 am

Let me start over. I'll start by assuming that it was all as one-sided bad as you claim.

Okay, for the sake of argument, Israel did some bad things.

okay?

Why bring it up now?
What is your purpose? Your intent?

I believe that you are just trying to stir hatred against Israel. I believe that you want a new generation of children to grow up hating Israel even if they have no experience with, or true knowledge of Israel and the Israelis.

It isn't about 'wanting us to know the truth' or any other such noble-sounding abstraction as that. You just want us to hate Israel.

I don't love Israel by any means. I don't believe for a moment that Israel is squeaky-clean in this mess. But here is the most important thing of all:

The past is over.


Got that?

Nothing good can come of constant re-hashing of past offenses. They can only serve one possible purpose - to fan the fires of hatred.

People who DON'T WANT to fix the problem will ALWAYS bring up every last insult back two thousand years as evidence of how right their side is. We cannot fix the past. We can only start right now to fix the future. Do you want your children to strap on explosive vests? If not, stop fanning the fires like this. Ask the administrator to remove this thread.

It is hatemongering.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
RAPCON
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Lebanon has freedom of speech, believe it or not

 laughing   laughing   laughing 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Would I not get an ass kicking if I went to rural Texas and started screaming out that Republicans suck?

No. You would not.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Also, considering your own country, the shining beacon of freedom, has committed acts of political oppression and many political actions that have changed the course of many countries, I wouldn't be pointing fingers if I were you.

Well, apart from the fact that I'm from a colony, I do have US citizenship. And thus I can state that those countries...probably had it comming.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
the Phalange militia during the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982 (where 2,000 Palestinian refugees were murdered), and all of it was committed under the watch of Israeli troops.

Did the IDF troops have a duty to stop it? I don't think so! If I had been commanding an IDF unit, it would've been a cold day in the desert before I sent my men to stop what was going on in the palestinian hood. No siree! Not getting involved in a tribal fight over nothing that's my business.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 10):
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Anyway, I don't see much point to this thread. I think every one on this planet has already choses sides.

Not me. Both have valid points, and both have faults. Neither of them is in the right beyond 50%.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12):
Not me. Both have valid points, and both have faults. Neither of them is in the right beyond 50%.

You quoted the wrong person.
Crye me a river
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Would I not get an ass kicking if I went to rural Texas and started screaming out that Republicans suck?

Have you even been to Texas? I don't know where you get that idea but that is not how things work here. Does "Cindy Sheehan" or "Crawford, Texas" ring any bells?

[Edited 2006-08-17 17:20:51]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 10):
I know a few Vietnam vets who would tell you that this is nothing compared to what they went through.

How is that relevant to this thread?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 10):
Funny.....you're the only one going off on these rants about how everyone needs to stick to the subject.

So instead of making smartass comments, why don't you actually post something to do with the subject at hand?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
Why bring it up now?
What is your purpose? Your intent?

I brought it up now because Israel bombed the prison today, and my intent is to show that Israel did so for a reason - I am free to post threads on this forum as long as they are within the rules on any subject i'd like.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
I believe that you are just trying to stir hatred against Israel. I believe that you want a new generation of children to grow up hating Israel even if they have no experience with, or true knowledge of Israel and the Israelis

Really? What children would those be, SlamClick? Didn't a new generation just experience Israeli aggression first hand in Lebanon? What I want is to raise awareness among Americans so they don't keep up their blind support for the country.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
It isn't about 'wanting us to know the truth' or any other such noble-sounding abstraction as that. You just want us to hate Israel.

Not really, it is just that - wanting people to see the truth. It is not to increase hatred, it is to show that Israel has a very dark passed and that it continues do do many terrible things. Considering this went on until 2000, this is very relevant to Israel's recent history.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
I don't love Israel by any means. I don't believe for a moment that Israel is squeaky-clean in this mess. But here is the most important thing of all:

The past is over.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

Also, if the past is over, SlamClick, do me a favour and do the following then:
-Forget 9/11 and the victims - the past is over, right?
-Stop holding the Marines bombing against Hezbollah.
-Stop holding the embassy kidnapping against Iran.

etc, etc.

The past might be over but that does not mean it isn't relevant and that we shouldn't educate ourselves based on the past. Only narrowminded people see the past as unimportant.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
Nothing good can come of constant re-hashing of past offenses. They can only serve one possible purpose - to fan the fires of hatred.

No, they can educate people and they are very relevant to everything that goes on today - past events can be used to explain many things that are happening today. How can you explain why there are Palestinian refugees if you don't look into how they came to be this way? It is impossible to look at things without putting them in context, and the past is very, very important in order to do so.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
People who DON'T WANT to fix the problem will ALWAYS bring up every last insult back two thousand years as evidence of how right their side is. We cannot fix the past. We can only start right now to fix the future. Do you want your children to strap on explosive vests? If not, stop fanning the fires like this. Ask the administrator to remove this thread.

This is 6 years ago, not 2000. People can't fix the problem if they don't know about it, SlamClick, and this might give people an idea about why there is so much opposition to Israel in Lebanon.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12):
No. You would not.

My ass I wouldn't.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12):
Well, apart from the fact that I'm from a colony, I do have US citizenship. And thus I can state that those countries...probably had it comming

So Iran in 1952 had it coming because it chose to end the British monopoly on its own resources, for example?

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12):
Did the IDF troops have a duty to stop it? I don't think so! If I had been commanding an IDF unit, it would've been a cold day in the desert before I sent my men to stop what was going on in the palestinian hood. No siree! Not getting involved in a tribal fight over nothing that's my business.

If they weren't involved at all, fair enough. But considering the IDF sent the militia in there to hunt down the "hundreds of PLO fighters" (but they only sent in 150 troops), surrounded the complex, and watched exactly what is going on, i'd say their pretty damn guilty.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
MDorBust
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Have you even been to Texas? I don't know where you get that idea but that is not how things work here.

Yeah, we'd pretty much tell him to shut up since he's scaring the deer/cattle/goats/chickens/various other livestock.

The old blue haired baptist ladies would probably say "bless his heart" a dozen or so times, and the rest of the old folks would probably ponder if he had just got too much sun and offer him a pitcher of ice tea.

After all, we have tolerated Cindy Sheehan..

That is of course rural Texas. If someone started shouting "Republicans Suck!" in urban Texas, they might just draw a crowd... all chanting the same thing.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
santosdumont
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12):
Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Also, considering your own country, the shining beacon of freedom, has committed acts of political oppression and many political actions that have changed the course of many countries, I wouldn't be pointing fingers if I were you.

Well, apart from the fact that I'm from a colony, I do have US citizenship. And thus I can state that those countries...probably had it comming.

Your master has taught you well, Boricua.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
What I want is to raise awareness among Americans so they don't keep up their blind support for the country.

If this came from a source other than someone that supports any of Israel's atrocious neighbors from Morrocco to Pakistan, I think it'd fall on more sympathetic ears.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SlamClick
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
Really? What children would those be, SlamClick? Didn't a new generation just experience Israeli aggression first hand in Lebanon?

No they didn't. They experienced bombing. They haven't a clue in hell what it was about unless you, or somebody like you tells them. Clearly you have chosen to tell them it was "Israeli agression" rather than "Israel taking defensive action to ROCKETS being fired on them from LEBANON" as most of the western world understands it.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
What I want is to raise awareness among Americans so they don't keep up their blind support for the country.

In other words to fan hatred for Israel. In still other words, to undermine the ceasefire.

Moderators, now that the purpose of this thread has been made so perfectly clear, isn't it time to lock it?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Have you even been to Texas? I don't know where you get that idea but that is not how things work here. Does "Cindy Sheehan" or "Crawford, Texas" ring any bells?

Fine, the US is the world's finest example of tolerance. Tell me, where did the term raghead originate?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Yeah, we'd pretty much tell him to shut up since he's scaring the deer/cattle/goats/chickens/various other livestock.

Would love to see the reaction to your opinions here in the Arab world.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
The old blue haired baptist ladies would probably say "bless his heart" a dozen or so times, and the rest of the old folks would probably ponder if he had just got too much sun and offer him a pitcher of ice tea.

After all, we have tolerated Cindy Sheehan..

]That is of course rural Texas. If someone started shouting "Republicans Suck!" in urban Texas, they might just draw a crowd... all chanting the same thing.

 rotfl  rotfl 
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
How is that relevant to this thread?

Because you went off in the first post about how this prison is so horribly shocking, yet I reminded you that far worse events have transpired in the history of mankind.

Also, as already mentioned, the photographs shown don't prove anything. You act as though this prison is some sort of madhouse where people were brutally beaten and tortured. It may have been just that, but the articles you gave don't show much at all.

Lastly, and people like you need to take this to heart....when you get excited and post a thread like this, then put at the very end of it...

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

...you better be ready for people to present you their thoughts. If you can't handle it and end up getting your panties in a wad everytime someone disagrees with you, then I urge you to seek entertainment elsewhere.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
So instead of making smartass comments, why don't you actually post something to do with the subject at hand?

I did....with my very first comment.

Read your history.
Crye me a river
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
If this came from a source other than someone that supports any of Israel's atrocious neighbors from Morrocco to Pakistan, I think it'd fall on more sympathetic ears

4 sources up there buddy, up to you to believe it or not.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
No they didn't. They experienced bombing. They haven't a clue in hell what it was about unless you, or somebody like you tells them. Clearly you have chosen to tell them it was "Israeli agression" rather than "Israel taking defensive action to ROCKETS being fired on them from LEBANON" as most of the western world understands it.

OK, we'll tell them those things that just blew their house up were misguided fireworks, and that 1,000 people simply dissapeared, and that they had to leave their towns behind because the boogeyman is out in the streets.

Tell me, after 9/11, did you guys tell your children "we oppressed them so bad that they exploded in our face"? Then don't expect the Lebanese to make statements that are just as idiotic.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
In other words to fan hatred for Israel. In still other words, to undermine the ceasefire.

Moderators, now that the purpose of this thread has been made so perfectly clear, isn't it time to lock it?

Freedom of speech, if he doesn't agree with me, lock his thread! Real nice, SlamClick! Just because you interpret things in whatever way you want doesn't mean thats what it really is. You seem to think we're all just dying to be in your shoes, as you made clear in another thread - doesn't make it true.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
MDorBust
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 20):
Fine, the US is the world's finest example of tolerance. Tell me, where did the term raghead originate?

I see, now we've degraded from the evils of Isreal to the evils of the US.. Pretty much par for the course.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 20):
Would love to see the reaction to your opinions here in the Arab world.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at here. Could you please rephrase for me?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15323
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 22):
4 sources up there buddy, up to you to believe it or not.

Yep, and HRW and the BBC have a lot to say about a lot of prisons; why focus on this one?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 22):
4 sources up there buddy, up to you to believe it or not.

http://www.inminds.co.uk/
This one is not the best...it is a very poor choice for a source.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/766746.stm
"Al-Khiam was run by the SLA and Israel has always denied any involvement."

http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml
"publishes news, commentary, analysis, and reference materials about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict from a Palestinian perspective"

http://hrw.org/
Is a well known source for bashing Israel, 'nuf said.
Again, almost as fair and balanced as Fox News!


BTW, not saying that these incidents did not take place, or who is to blame, just pointing out that sources need to be checked or someone will call you on them.

[Edited 2006-08-17 18:06:33]
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
qr332
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
Because you went off in the first post about how this prison is so horribly shocking, yet I reminded you that far worse events have transpired in the history of mankind.

Fair enough.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
Also, as already mentioned, the photographs shown don't prove anything. You act as though this prison is some sort of madhouse where people were brutally beaten and tortured. It may have been just that, but the articles you gave don't show much at all.

How do they not show much at all? You have examples of the forms of torture used, eyewitness accounts, reports from Human Rights Watch, and evidence of Israeli involvment. The photographs aren't the only thing there, you might find it difficult to understand things without big pretty pictures, but people usually actually bother reading.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
Lastly, and people like you need to take this to heart....when you get excited and post a thread like this, then put at the very end of it...

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

...you better be ready for people to present you their thoughts. If you can't handle it and end up getting your panties in a wad everytime someone disagrees with you, then I urge you to seek entertainment elsewhere

So because I am arguing with people about their thoughts, I am now getting my panties in a wad? What pisses me off is when people come, say the pictures dont show much, then openly admit they havent looked at the other links - thats just screaming out ignorance whether you like it or not, and that is why I asked SlamClick about why he bothered replying.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
I did....with my very first comment.

You meant it more as a "so what" comment than actual commentary on the topic at hand.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 23):
I see, now we've degraded from the evils of Isreal to the evils of the US.. Pretty much par for the course.

I am not one of those who sits there bashing the US everytime he cans, i'm simply saying that not everyone is respectful of everyone else's opinions everywhere, including the US. Do you deny this?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 23):
I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at here. Could you please rephrase for me?

Fine: just like you think people would take what i'm saying with a grain of salt, the same would be the case with you in the Arab world.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Yep, and HRW and the BBC have a lot to say about a lot of prisons; why focus on this one?

Gee, maybe because it got bombed today?

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
This one is not the best...it is a very poor choice for a source.

It was linked to from somewhere else, but it does give a good idea of what went on in the prison. It cites its sources at the end.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
"Al-Khiam was run by the SLA and Israel has always denied any involvement."

Israel has denied a lot of things, that doesn't mean crap. I never claimed it wasn't run by the SLA, what i'm saying is that Israel helped them a lot in the prison.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
"publishes news, commentary, analysis, and reference materials about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict from a Palestinian perspective"

Gee, its from a Palestinian perspective so it must be wrong!

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
Is a well known source for bashing Israel, 'nuf said.
Again, almost as fair and balanced as Fox News!

Now why would a human rights group bash Israel?  Yeah sure

Here are some more sources for you then:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/1002463.stm
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0...le=Custo_Final.3&View=defaultBody5

There are many sources, if you want to be so ignorant that you won't believe what is spelled out right in front of you, it is up to you. The above BBC article mirrors what was said in the first link.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 22):
OK, we'll tell them those things that just blew their house up were misguided fireworks,

Please, have a little regard for truth, for reality.

I already gave you an alternative explanation.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
you have chosen to tell them it was "Israeli agression" rather than "Israel taking defensive action to ROCKETS being fired on them from LEBANON" as most of the western world understands it.

...which you chose to ignore. Was it perhaps inconvenient?

You have once again demonstrated that you don't want the children of your part of the world to know the TRUTH about Israel. You want them to hear only BAD things about Israel.

In short, YOU want YOUR children to strap on explosive vests and commit murder and suicide. You are taking steps toward that right here, right now. It is time the world called you on it.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
Gee, its from a Palestinian perspective so it must be wrong!

Didn't say that, just pointing out that it may not be most reliable source.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
It was linked to from somewhere else, but it does give a good idea of what went on in the prison. It cites its sources at the end.

I looked through the site, and read some articles on it, and it just didn't hit me as being an unbiased source.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
Is a well known source for bashing Israel, 'nuf said.
Again, almost as fair and balanced as Fox News!

Now why would a human rights group bash Israel?

Just because you put Human Rights in your name, doesn't make it a reliable source.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
Please, have a little regard for truth, for reality.

I already gave you an alternative explanation.

An explenation tailored to your needs - why don't you try to accept there are views other than your own?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
...which you chose to ignore. Was it perhaps inconvenient?

Nope, just completley untruthful. If it was Hezbollah they were after, why does Hezbollah still have full strength and why did 1,000+ civilians die? Surely, those precision bombs they bought from the US must have counted towards something.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
You have once again demonstrated that you don't want the children of your part of the world to know the TRUTH about Israel. You want them to hear only BAD things about Israel.

What you are saying is an OPINION, not the TRUTH. I am free to pass on whatever OPINIONS I want to my children, unlike you, i'm not arrogant enough to claim it is the one and only TRUTH. Tell me, since you care so much about people knowing the TRUTH and not LYING, why did you claim that all Arabs are trying to get out of the Middle East whenever they can? Surely, you realise that comment is the most uninformed, short sighted, ignorant comment ever?

The CAPITALS do get annoying after a while, DON'T THEY?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
In short, YOU want YOUR children to strap on explosive vests and commit murder and suicide. You are taking steps toward that right here, right now. It is time the world called you on it.

I just love the flamebait. So because I don't believe what you believe, I know want my children to blow up innocent people? Real nice and mature, Slam...
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
How do they not show much at all?

Because they showed a little box with a painting on it. I've endured far worse than what these articles state, and that was sanctioned training.

I'm not saying that people didn't suffer, but to call this "some of the most disgusting and disturbing methods of torture I have ever heard of" is pretty extreme.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
So because I am arguing with people about their thoughts, I am now getting my panties in a wad?

Because you seem to think that everyone is going off topic when they express those thoughts, yet you are the only one who is constantly drifting away by bashing everyone who disagrees with you. You are getting so flustered by the fact that people are showing you that these articles aren't the most credible ones out there, yet want to tell everyone else to get back on topic.

Pot.....kettle.....blacker than black.  irked 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
What pisses me off is when people come, say the pictures dont show much, then openly admit they havent looked at the other links - thats just screaming out ignorance whether you like it or not, and that is why I asked SlamClick about why he bothered replying.

One person said that....and at this point, I'm sure he's read them by now.

The rest of us read each and every link you posted. I'm not impressed with any of them and am just as skeptical of the whole thing as I was to begin with.

Screaming ignorance is present in those who ask for others' thoughts, yet refuse to acknowledge others' thoughts.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
You meant it more as a "so what" comment than actual commentary on the topic at hand.

 redflag  Please tell me how in the bloody hell you can tell me what I meant and what I didn't?
Crye me a river
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 30):
Because they showed a little box with a painting on it. I've endured far worse than what these articles state, and that was sanctioned training.

I'm not saying that people didn't suffer, but to call this "some of the most disgusting and disturbing methods of torture I have ever heard of" is pretty extreme

Fine, these are perfectly humane things then (from the BBC article in reply #26):

Ali Kashmar was 14 when arrested and detained in 1988. Although he had voiced anti-Israeli opinions in school (his own father was killed fighting the Israeli invasion ten years earlier) there is no evidence to suggest that he was guilty of any crime.

Ali was tortured for 11 days and says he started making up stories to please his interrogators. Ali Kashmar was kept in Khiam for ten years. He grew up from a boy to a man within the prison walls - without even a mirror to use as his appearance changed, and spent time in solitary confinement.

Ali was eventually released after a decade as part of a hostage exchange - 55 Khiam prisoners and the bodies of 44 Lebanese were traded for the remains of three Israeli soliders in 1998. Terribly damaged by his years in Khiam, he is still fighting severe psychological difficulties - and there is nowhere in Lebanon that provides treatment for this kind of trauma.


...

Ryadh was tortured for 11 months, and gives a graphic account of what it was like; the use of electric shocks administered through wires attached to the finger tips or the genitals, the beatings, the dousings with hot then cold water, and what was known as "the pole", where prisoners - often after being striped naked - were handcuffed and suspended for hours at a time.

...

Ryadh's brother Adel was detained in Khiam too; when Adel refused to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear they hauled in his wife Mona and tortured her so that he could hear her screams. Mona suffered electric shocks - through wires attached to her nipples - spent three months in solitary confinement and lost her baby while she was in the prison.

Read those three extracts. Then there is the holding of prisoners in solitary confinement for years, prisoners not seeing daylight for weeks, etc, etc, and many other terrible things. Tell me, is a man watching his wife being electricuted by sticking wires onto her nipples and beating her until causing a misscariage not inhumane to you? What about other things described above?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 30):
Because you seem to think that everyone is going off topic when they express those thoughts, yet you are the only one who is constantly drifting away by bashing everyone who disagrees with you. You are getting so flustered by the fact that people are showing you that these articles aren't the most credible ones out there, yet want to tell everyone else to get back on topic.

Pot.....kettle.....blacker than black. irked

I was telling RAPCON, who started going on about Hezbollah and the Bekaa valley, to get back on topic. Tell me, which members other than RAPCON did I tell to get back on topic? Please, since your so sure.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 30):
One person said that....and at this point, I'm sure he's read them by now.

The rest of us read each and every link you posted. I'm not impressed with any of them and am just as skeptical of the whole thing as I was to begin with.

Screaming ignorance is present in those who ask for others' thoughts, yet refuse to acknowledge others' thoughts.

Show me where I refused to acknowledge other's thoughts. If your skeptical with the whole thing its up to you, but I doubt you've read the article if your basing your argument over the 90cmx90cm cell with the painting on it, especially since the article contains many more things. Also, are you telling me being held in that cell for days without being able to stand or lie down is something normal?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 30):
redflag Please tell me how in the bloody hell you can tell me what I meant and what I didn't?

Then you shouldn't tell me how the hell I feel and how I accept others opinions.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
You see, this is the Fox News image exactly - Iran is controlling Lebanon and Hezbollah.

Oh stop the Fox News crap. Every Middle East analyst--people with PhDs from Princeton and Yale--agree that Hezbollah is an arm of Iran. These people are the experts in their field--they are interviewed for CNN, Fox, the NY Times, the Wall Street Journal, etc. Stop your American bashing.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
I am free to post threads on this forum as long as they are within the rules on any subject i'd like

It's pathetic that you have more freedom on A.net than you do in your own country!

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
What I want is to raise awareness among Americans so they don't keep up their blind support for the country.

What makes you think it is "blind support"? I think most Americans who do actually read a newspaper are more than intelligent enough to make up their own minds on the subject.....There's a reason why the US is so pro-Israel and I can assure you it has nothing to do with "blind support."
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
SlamClick
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 29):
An explenation tailored to your needs - why don't you try to accept there are views other than your own?

Once again with emphasis added:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
Clearly you have chosen to tell them it was "Israeli agression" rather than "Israel taking defensive action to ROCKETS being fired on them from LEBANON" as most of the western world understands it.

Let's try it again with more emphasis:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
Clearly you have chosen to tell them it was "Israeli agression" rather than "Israel taking defensive action to ROCKETS being fired on them from LEBANON" as most of the western world understands it.

Get it now? TWO possible explanation. I posted both. YOU ignored one of them. Is that how you get information out? By ignoring half of what others say?

So as I understand your view at this point, Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel from Lebanon and with the tacit support of the Lebanese people was Israeli agression.

Okay, I understand you now.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Tell me, is a man watching his wife being electricuted by sticking wires onto her nipples and beating her until causing a misscariage not inhumane to you? What about other things described above?

Not once....NOT ONCE did I justify anything as being humane. All I said was that your statement of...

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
some of the most disgusting and disturbing methods of torture I have ever heard of.

...is slightly skewed since far worse practices of torture have occurred many times over in the history of mankind. I never said the word "humane" at any point in time.

Get your facts straight buddy.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
If your skeptical with the whole thing its up to you, but I doubt you've read the article if your basing your argument over the 90cmx90cm cell with the painting on it, especially since the article contains many more things.

I read all four articles you put at the end of your original post. Quit telling me that I haven't read them.  redflag 

I mentioned the box with the painting because that seems to be the extent of the torture mentioned. Some electrical shock and no daylight doesn't sway me as...

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
some of the most disgusting and disturbing methods of torture I have ever heard of.

That is my point....nothing more. Now quit twisting the living shit out of my posts.  redflag 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Also, are you telling me being held in that cell for days without being able to stand or lie down is something normal?

Christ man, have you lost it? Not once did I ever justify any of this as 'normal.'  crazy 

There is nothing normal about war, period. Get over it.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Then you shouldn't tell me how the hell I feel and how I accept others opinions.

When the flyin fuck did I ever tell you how you feel???  crazy 

I think you need to take some time and reread this entire thread, starting with your own starting post.
Crye me a river
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
Oh stop the Fox News crap. Every Middle East analyst--people with PhDs from Princeton and Yale--agree that Hezbollah is an arm of Iran. These people are the experts in their field--they are interviewed for CNN, Fox, the NY Times, the Wall Street Journal, etc. Stop your American bashing.

Wow... i'm going to take their words as holy now that people with PhDs - PHDS!!! - have said it. I saw just how unbiased US media is during my visit a month ago to the US, RJ, and I wouldn't take what they say for a grain of salt. You seem to think I care what some professor from Yale thinks, it is all a matter of opinion, and it is up to them to think what they want.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
It's pathetic that you have more freedom on A.net than you do in your own country!

Hmm, very smart statement, considering if I did have less freedom I would be locked up for what i've said on A.net now.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
What makes you think it is "blind support"? I think most Americans who do actually read a newspaper are more than intelligent enough to make up their own minds on the subject.....There's a reason why the US is so pro-Israel and I can assure you it has nothing to do with "blind support."

But they make their mind up based on what they read in AMERICAN newspapers and what they see in the AMERICAN media. When over a thousand civilians die and most Americans believe they were all killed by accident, that is what is known as blind support.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
Get it now? TWO possible explanation. I posted both. YOU ignored one of them. Is that how you get information out? By ignoring half of what others say?

Sigh... you are hopeless. It is up to me to believe whatever I want, if I want to discard your twisted theory, it is up to me.

BTW, since your so informed, shouldn't you have been able to tell me that the conflict started because of 2 kidnapped soldiers, not rockets?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
So as I understand your view at this point, Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel from Lebanon and with the tacit support of the Lebanese people was Israeli agression.

Israeli agression is the killing of over a thousand civilians, targeting civilian areas intentionally, destroying a country's infrastructure, and then turning around and lying their ass off about it.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 34):
...is slightly skewed since far worse practices of torture have occurred many times over in the history of mankind. I never said the word "humane" at any point in time

Note that I said: that I have ever heard of. So maybe I haven't heard of anything worse... hmmm...

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 34):
I mentioned the box with the painting because that seems to be the extent of the torture mentioned. Some electrical shock and no daylight doesn't sway me as..

Fine, a man watching his wife getting the shit beaten out of her, electrecuted, hung from a pole, raped, and whatever the hell else done to her is not horrible torture.  Yeah sure

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 34):
That is my point....nothing more. Now quit twisting the living shit out of my posts. redflag

I'm the one twisting your posts? Your the one whos been going on about me telling people to stick to the subject because I disagree with them, even though I just proved to you that I said it to a total of one person because he went into something completley irrelevant.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 34):
Christ man, have you lost it? Not once did I ever justify any of this as 'normal.'

There is nothing normal about war, period. Get over it.

But you seem to think its not too bad, and you compared it to your training, which you claimed to be far worse.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 34):
When the flyin fuck did I ever tell you how you feel??? crazy

I think you need to take some time and reread this entire thread, starting with your own starting post.

Weren't you going on about how I was "getting my panties in a wad"? I think you need to pay attention to what you post... remember that it could come back and bite you in the ass.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
santosdumont
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 30):
I've endured far worse than what these articles state, and that was sanctioned training.

Sanctioned training which you presumably consented to, right USN?
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
MDorBust
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:31 am

Seriously, QR332, people like you are why Americans support Israel in this conflict.

You can't be truthful in your hatred.

Israel attacked civilian areas? Might that be because Hezbollah was in there with the civilians firing their rockets from next to apartments?

Israel lied about their attacks? How does one do that with the horde of multinational journalists covering every angle?

Hezbollah isn't a puppet of Iran? Yeah sure. I guess we are supposed to forget that Iranian soldiers are part of Hezbollah.

Then you play it all of on American media and the ignorance of Americans. Do you really think every American home comes with a TV hard wired to FOX news, a poster that says "big brother is watching", and a block on internet access that prevents us from foreign websites?

The day you start telling the truth is the day you start winning over Americans. But then again, the day you start telling the truth, especially to yourself, is the day the hatred starts dieing.

[Edited 2006-08-17 19:35:56]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
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yowza
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
If this came from a source other than someone that supports any of Israel's atrocious neighbors from Morocco to Pakistan, I think it'd fall on more sympathetic ears.

This blanket statement shows your lack of knowledge of the Arab and Muslim worlds... and no watching Syriana (I'm guessing that's where you borrowed the "Morocco to Pakistan" blanket from) and going out for Shawarma once a week does not give you any credibility. The major cause of conflict in the Arab and (and Muslim) world is fragmentation - usually based on tribal lines. Depending on the status quo some factions will be in bed with a one-time sworn enemy.

Look at the mess that is Lebanon. You heard (till recently) outcries in the western media (which then trickled down to the western populous) urging Syria to get out of Lebanon. Where was that same awareness when the Israelis fully occupied West Beirut when they drove the PLO out?

While most people have picked a side in this latest of Middle-Eastern debacles, what most don't realize is that we are not dealing with a simple line here, there are more than two sides - way more.

I think all QR332 was trying to do with this thread was create some awareness of the fact that Israeli involvement in Lebanon has been as significant (if not more) than that of Syria and to encourage people to learn more about the region. The childish snipes of "what is the point of this thread" to " you're biased because you are..." add no value.

I would encourage everyone who has a less that firm grasp of the region and the Israeli-Lebanese conflict in particular to read up. You might mysteriously find yourself on the other side of the fence. May I be so bold as to suggest you buy/borrow "From Beirut to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman. It is an amazing account of the conflict written by an American Jew who reported from Beirut during the height of its messiest days.

YOWza
 
SlamClick
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:38 am

So

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
"Israel taking defensive action to ROCKETS being fired on them from LEBANON"

is a

Quoting QR332 (Reply 35):
twisted theory

Well now we know who YOU are.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 35):
that the conflict started because of 2 kidnapped soldiers, not rockets?

I was being kind to you. I knew about the two kidnapped soldiers. What YOU left out is that it was two Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hezbollah and presumably taken into Lebanon. Where is the investigation by Lebanon into this act of war committed in their name?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 35):
Israeli agression is the killing of over a thousand civilians, targeting civilian areas intentionally

Okay so Hezbollah knowingly, deliberately positioning their rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods, as THE WHOLE WORLD saw in the video, was an act of Israeli agression.

I get it now.

Here is a test for you.

Type the words:

"Israel has the right to exist."

That would be a really good start toward peace in your part of the world. It might keep the explosive vests off your children. I assume you care about that.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 38):
This blanket statement shows your lack of knowledge of the Arab and Muslim worlds...

If you are a woman, or a journalist, or gay, or a non Muslim, or a voter, or a minority, or 'not the minority in power', where do you think you'd be better off? Israel or somewhere between Morocco and Pakistan? Israel may be no picnic, but compared to its neighbors it looks pretty great, no matter what the measure is: human rights, freedom, development, poverty, etc..

Quoting YOWza (Reply 38):
and no watching Syriana

Never saw it.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 38):
I think all QR332 was trying to do with this thread was create some awareness of the fact that Israeli involvement in Lebanon has been as significant

Mmm hmmm....I wasn't born yesterday, and this is not the first time I've read something QR332 has written.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 38):
there are more than two sides - way more.

What your post does not acknowledge is this: If they would refrain from attacking Israel and if they would cease exporting murder to other parts of the world not fifteen people in the whole western world would care what they do to each other.

Specific knowledge of middle eastern culture and history may be important but an empirical knowledge of human nature is probably more so. Most of us on here have the latter, and very few of us get our information from Fox, as the o/p is so fond of suggesting.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:05 am

While Israel has committed many atrocities, I urge you to read this:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/irn-summary-eng
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:08 am

While Israel has committed many atrocities, I urge you to read this:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/irn-summary-eng

Hezbollah's backers for you.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
TheSorcerer
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:35 am

RE: Mankind At Its Worst: Khiyam Prison

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:11 am

IIRC this is the kinda thing that happened to the captured members of Bravo Two Zero in 1991 at the hands of Saddam's regime.
This sort of thing isn't only confined to prisons run with the consent of Israel.

Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)

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