OttoPylit
Topic Author
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Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:04 am

Below is a portion of a story of which re-print permission has been granted.

Ok, lets think about this for a second. Below is a portion of a story of which re-print permision has been granted in order to comply with a.net's communistic standards for posting. An illegal immigrant single mother is hiding in a church for fear of being deported and wants to stay. Let's see, she cannot speak English, for one thing, broke the law by coming into the country illegally, was convicted of using a fake SSN for working as a cleaning lady at ORD and deported, and broke the law a third time coming back into the country. Now, she just wants to stay because she is afraid of being possibly seperated from her son, a US citizen. A church has given her temporary sactuary, and authorities say they will arrest her in due time.

Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?

And why should she believe a church can protect her from the INS?

I say DEPORTATION!!!




A prominent activist for illegal immigrants sought sanctuary in a church Wednesday rather than turn herself in for deportation, saying she fears being separated from her young son.

Elvira Arellano, an illegal immigrant who took refuge at Adalberto United Methodist Church in Chicago, gives interviews before the alter of the church.

"I am single mom. My son, he is citizen," Elvira Arellano, a Mexican national, said from just inside the doorway of Adalberto United Methodist Church. "I am not terrorist. I am not criminal. I am mom. He is my son."

Arellano, speaking through a translator Tuesday, said her 7-year-old son, Saul, worries that they will be separated.

"I want to stay here for my son. I want to give him a better future, a better life," she said.

Arellano, who was deported shortly after illegally crossing into the United States in 1997, is president of United Latino Family, which lobbies for families that could be split by deportation.

She says she returned within days, lived in Oregon for three years and moved to Chicago in 2000. She was arrested in 2002 at O'Hare International Airport, where she was employed as a cleaning woman, and subsequently convicted of working under a false Social Security number.

Arellano was ordered to appear at the immigration office in Chicago at 9 a.m. Tuesday, but instead went to the church.

Pastor Walter Coleman said his congregation offered Arellano refuge after praying about her plight. Coleman said he doesn't believe Arellano should have to choose between leaving her son behind or removing him from his home.

"She represents the voice of the undocumented, and we think it's our obligation, our responsibility, to make a stage for that voice to be heard," he said.

Federal officials declared Arellano a fugitive and said living inside a church does not offer her protection from arrest and deportation.

"There's nothing that prevents us from arresting anyone who has an outstanding deportation order anywhere in the United States," said Tim Counts, a spokesman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

"We will apprehend her at a time and place of our choosing," Counts said.

Arellano has received support from several Democratic politicians over the years. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., said he introduced a private bill that provided Arellano one stay in her deportation proceedings, but that there is nothing more he can do.

"It is an unfortunate truth that scores of people are in the same situation as Elvira and her family," Durbin said in a statement. "We cannot fix injustices of this system with private bills; only comprehensive immigration reform can permanently remedy this situation."




OttoPylit
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MDorBust
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:10 am

Lol, she had to speak through a translator.

Not only is she an illegal immigrant, she's the worst kind. Those that won't integrate.

Deport her. And throw in jail anyone that harbors her.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Yes.

Should they interfere with the law when officials come knocking on the door? No. But I think they have every right to provide shelter until that person is arrested.

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Federal officials declared Arellano a fugitive and said living inside a church does not offer her protection from arrest and deportation.

Sad but true.  checkmark 
Crye me a river
 
777236ER
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
she's the worst kind. Those that won't integrate.

Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants, whereas France has forced them to immigrate. Our race relations are much better than those in France.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
luv2fly
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:29 am

Sorry she is a criminal, send her back.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
MattRB
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Elvira Arellano:
I am not criminal.

I'm sorry ma'am, but you are. You entered the country illegally, multiple times and are now trying to use your son as a shield to prevent you from being prosecuted and removed.

You are a criminal. As are those you give voice to.

Give her the option - leave with or without your son. She can apply through normal channels once back in Mexico.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants, whereas France has forced them to immigrate. Our race relations are much better than those in France.



[Edited 2006-08-17 19:45:51]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:39 am

Churches (and other religious facilities) have become havens for illegal immigrants in the USA and elsewhere and is part of their long traditions. In the USA, religious facilites helped legal immigrants in the past to intergrate with the country and community and still do. Illegals cannot really go to a government run facility for help and that is exploited by their cheap employers. Therfore Churches have become the only real alternative. I would say that there are limits. Businesses and people whom employ illegals are breaking the law and committing a sin against God. Churches should put pressure on the employers of illegals that they are exploiting them and should be called out for their sins. As to the illegals themselves, Churches do have an obligation to help them, but there are limits and a time when they must 'render to Ceaser' and obey the law or they are commiting sin too.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:41 am

To answer the question, yes, but only because they are morally / spiritually / whatever-ly obliged to
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vikkyvik
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:00 am

Churches can provide "shelter" in the strictest sense - that is, she can wait for enforcement authorities under the church roof. The fact that a church is a religious institution does not exempt it or its workers from the law.

My question is this, however: if the church "fails" to report her presence there, and she's discovered later, would the church have broken the law by aiding a fugitive or whatever?

Frankly, if I had a fugitive in my house, I'd try and get them the hell outta there, preferably straight into the hands of police.

I assume the son is an American citizen because he was born in the US. Well, that's a chance she took when she immigrated illegally. So her son has only his mom to blame if they do get separated.

Just my two cents.

~Vik
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nkops
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 9):
if the church "fails" to report her presence there, and she's discovered later, would the church have broken the law by aiding a fugitive or whatever?

Simply, Yes!!! While churches are pretty much more than happy to help folks (they run shelters, etc.), they still are not entitled to break the law. I do believe the Bible states they are to clearly follow the law of the land!
:evil:
 
FDXmech
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants, whereas France has forced them to immigrate. Our race relations are much better than those in France.

You may be right. The frying pan is more comfortable than the fire.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
jwenting
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?

she should be deported, after first serving her mandatory life sentence in a Mexican style prison under the 3 strikes you're out law.

no illegals should ever be allowed to stay under any condition whatsoever. Any business they've built up to be confiscated as part payment of the damage they've done to society, any property they've collected confiscated for the same reason.
Most of that property is likely stolen anyway.
I wish I were flying
 
lobster
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
I say DEPORTATION!!!

Amen to that

[quote=777236ER,reply=3]Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants[/quote

This ISN'T Britain. Just because we speak the same language and have similiar customs, does not mean that we share every custom and set of values. I think most people agree that legal immigration is the only way to come to that States and that learning ENGLISH is the right thing to do. Don't like it? Then don't immirgrate here for me to pay your welfare and healthcare and everything else. I say build the wall!!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:18 pm

I guess the first thread, same subject, into which I replied this morning was deleted.

So . . . .

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?



Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
I say DEPORTATION!!!

End of story.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:16 pm

I am all for the toughest border security possible. However, once they are here (especially with children born here that are now citizens by default) another road should be taken. If she is deported without her son, she will be back soon (wouldn't you do the same thing?). You cannot deport a citizen so her son will have to stay. Considering both options....it would be more prudent to place her into a program that would allow her to become a citizen legally, at her expense of course. I couldn't justify the expense of deporting her only to be forced to track her down and deport her again once she inevitably crosses over to be with her son.

Churches that have become "non-profit" entities by filing a 501C3 form with the IRS are not considered safe haven from government actions (it's in small print). Those churches smart enough to remain independent offer the same protection as that afforded to foreign embassies, and law enforcement agencies are not allowed to act freely on their sovereign property.

If you have a huge hole in the dike (dam), water that has already passed is no longer that important, is it? Wouldn't the logical thing be to immediately fix the hole so no further water is allowed to pass?

If you think about this in the -longrun- fashion, you have to agree that there will be NO more Mexican illegals in America after 2010. At that time, the American Union will be in full swing...all peoples from Canada and Mexico will be citizens of the superstate and allowed unfettered access to the entire region. If you, at that time, have a problem with the situation....you will be able to petition the government on the steps of the new capital, in Atlanta Georgia.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
Those churches smart enough to remain independent offer the same protection as that afforded to foreign embassies, and law enforcement agencies are not allowed to act freely on their sovereign property.

I beg your pardon . . . .

Naturally . . . .

So if I read your comment right, I cannot act as a Law Enforcement Officer on Church grounds? I cannot apprehend a suspect on Church grounds? I cannot execute a search warrant on Church grounds? I don't give a damn what kind of Form the Church filed or failed to file. My commission doesn't terminate when I pull in to a Church parking lot. Nor does my duty to uphold the law.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:32 pm

If someones life or limb is at risk by allowing a suspect to stay inside the church....they yes you have the duty to protect, no argument there. If the situation is not "grave" as the one this lady is in....then, provided the church has not signed away it's rights of independency, she is under the protection of essentially diplomatic immunity and can not be touched (legally).
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:35 pm

Source Please.



FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:40 pm

I'll see what I can do (later of course). I have 20 minutes until I have to SS and S (sh*t, shower, and shave) for the workday.  Wink

Hasn't this always been the rule though, the true "seperation" of church and state?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:51 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
Hasn't this always been the rule though, the true "seperation" of church and state?

I certainly can't find it, I've googled my ass off . . . . and I've reviewed Alaska Statutes . . . there appears no restriction under Alaska law.

It's yours to source . . . I'll be here all night, every night, for the next 14 days.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:00 pm

That's cool.  Smile CYA later.
 
cfalk
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:02 pm

I say deportation, along with her son. But the son, as a US citizen, may come to the US to live when he is 18.
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halls120
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?

And why should she believe a church can protect her from the INS?

I say DEPORTATION!!!

Deportation, yes. But not because she doesn't speak English.

Churches are free to provide all the shelter they want. But any if church members or officials try to stop federal agents from entering the premises to enforce the deportation order, they should likewise be arrested, charged, and prosecuted.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I certainly can't find it, I've googled my ass off . . . . and I've reviewed Alaska Statutes . . . there appears no restriction under Alaska law.

I guaran-damn-tee you it ain't no Texas law.  Big grin

I'll be waiting for his source as well.
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OttoPylit
Topic Author
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
I guess the first thread, same subject, into which I replied this morning was deleted.

Yep, you are correct. A certain a.net moderator who's name does not start with G and end with O has the letters arnetpalmett in the middle did not read the first post, where I had stated where the article came from and that permission was recieved. Upon notification, this person mis-quoted where the article came from and said that it violated copyright laws unless permission was given which, had they paid attention, would have noticed that all of that was taken care of already. Some of the people running this place... no 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I certainly can't find it, I've googled my ass off

 rotfl 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
Deportation, yes. But not because she doesn't speak English.

No, becuase she has broken the law 3 times and continues to do so by living here illegally. The not speaking English is icing on the cake, even though, through my own personal opinion, someone should be allowed to be deported for that too.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
If she is deported without her son, she will be back soon (wouldn't you do the same thing?).

She can have the chance to go with or without her son, and he may return if he chooses, just without her. You say she will be back. Are you sure? Isn't our border security supposed to becoming increasingly tighter? Hopefully, it will, and it will seal the borders of the U.S. completely. One you've fixed the dike, then you can start bailing water back over the side.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
Considering both options....it would be more prudent to place her into a program that would allow her to become a citizen legally, at her expense of course.

How is she to pay for it? Legally, you are't allowed to work in the US unless you are here legally, or if you don't mind working construction or field laborer(and I don't see her being able to do that). If she could afford it, she could afford to have learned English while she was here. She could have afforded to begin the proper channels to become a US citizen. She was caught when she was working illegally as a cleaning lady at ORD. So, how is she supposed to pay for it? With YOUR tax dollars?


I'll also be waiting for your source.



OttoPylit
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MattRB
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
place her into a program that would allow her to become a citizen legally, at her expense of course.

She had that option readily available to her already and didn't take it.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
I couldn't justify the expense of deporting her only to be forced to track her down and deport her again once she inevitably crosses over to be with her son.

Boot the son too. He can come back when he's 18 and sponsor his mother in then.
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ilikeyyc
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:32 am

In my opinion, Chruches should be allowed to supply illegals with humanitarian needs such a as food, shelter, showers, etc. No church should help them with their politcal needs, i.e. hiding them from the government, giving them jobs, etc. And, it should be the duty of any church to report to the government when an illegal has showed up on thier doorstep.

For this particular case, it is my opinion that the lady should be deported and its best that her son go with her. If every illegal who gave birth to/fathered a child here in the US was allowed to stay, it would create far more problems than solutions.
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srbmod
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:55 am

Any church that gives safe haven to illegal immigrants should have their tax-exempt status revoked (Same goes for these politicking churches telling their members who to vote for, but that's for another thread.).
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:29 am

The most irritating thing is, is her contention that she is a modern day Rosa Parks. This woman isn't even in the same league as Ms Parks. The honourable Rosa Parks for one, was a citizen of this country where as Miss Arellano is not. Number two, Miss Parks was fighting for her LEGAL rights as a legal citizen. Miss Arellano came here illegally twice, shit on our laws and then pretend that she's a lightening rod for peace. She brings up a speech that President Bush made a few months ago saying "that our immigration laws are broken, and need to be fixed". So Miss Arellano said she believes she is exempt form deportation becuase our laws are broken anyway. Well, She does not have the right to make that determination. No right whatsoever. Get rid of her.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Source Please.

Still waiting . . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
lobster
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
So if I read your comment right, I cannot act as a Law Enforcement Officer on Church grounds? I cannot apprehend a suspect on Church grounds? I cannot execute a search warrant on Church grounds? I don't give a damn what kind of Form the Church filed or failed to file. My commission doesn't terminate when I pull in to a Church parking lot. Nor does my duty to uphold the law.

I agree with you completely. I do recall a Law and Order episode a while back about something similar to this. Though obviously I don't get my legal knowledge from L&O.  Smile

But I did get curious enough to do a quick Google and found this for what's it worth I guess:

http://www.slate.com/id/2147879/
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting Lobster (Reply 32):
But I did get curious enough to do a quick Google and found this for what's it worth I guess:

http://www.slate.com/id/2147879/

This article is fine - but does NOT quote law.

I have not seen, nor will you find, a law on the books that says what MD80Fanatic alludes to above. It simply isn't there. Whatever "law" a church passes - such as the Code of Canon Law once on the Catholic books - are irrelevent and do not trump the real "law". Sorry.

I found this article, and many more when I did a Google search. Problem is, these aren't the laws of the land. A churches law is fodder - or it should be - in the eyes of the court in this country.

If such were not the case, then all the catholic priests running from prosecution for playing with altar boys would simply stay hunkered down within the walls of their church. If such were not the case, then every rapist, murderer, car thief, drug dealer and the like could simply hop on over to their local Presbyterian Church and damn the police . . .

Quoting Lobster (Reply 32):
obviously I don't get my legal knowledge from L&O

But just obviously, a lot of folks do  wink 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Source Please.

Still waiting . . . . .

Still waiting . . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
lobster
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:21 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 33):
Still waiting . . . . .

I think you scared him!!  biggrin 
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigra

Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
Still waiting . . . . .



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 33):
Still waiting . . . . .

Nah, I'm not scared at all.

Oddly, I feel I need to explain my Friday to all of you nosey people.  Yeah sure

_______________________
I worked from 7:00am until 5:30pm in the extremely hot Texas sun.

From 7:00pm until 9:30pm, I took some of the local youngsters to the Main Event for some laser tag.

From 10:00pm until 1:00am, I took the same youngsters to extreme bowling at the local lanes.
_______________________


Any other questions from those who have no life?  Yeah sure

Off to bed for me.....unless of course anyone has an objection.  butthead 
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 35):
Nah, I'm not scared at all.

Never intimated that you were. You'll have to see Lobster about that.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 35):
Oddly, I feel I need to explain my Friday to all of you nosey people

Nor could I give a rats ass about your Friday.


And I'm still waiting . . . Source Please.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
luv2fly
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:18 am

Well if they are giving safe haven to illegals than change the church status to hotel and charge them taxes! That would get her ass out of there.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
slider
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:58 am

I'm not Catholic and would gladly risk the wrath of the Almighty by going into that church, cuffing her in front of the altar, and dragging her ass out of there, putting her on a plane and airdropping her into the middle of the country, ala President Eisenhower's program back in the 50s.

Not only should she be deported, her son should be stripped of his citizenship, we need to end birthright citizenship, force assimilation, cut off all social and entitlement benefits immediately, secure the border and investigate La Raza and others for being the radical organizations that they are and openly--brazenly--purport to be.

BOOT HER OUT!

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 30):
The most irritating thing is, is her contention that she is a modern day Rosa Parks. This woman isn't even in the same league as Ms Parks. The honourable Rosa Parks for one, was a citizen of this country where as Miss Arellano is not. Number two, Miss Parks was fighting for her LEGAL rights as a legal citizen. Miss Arellano came here illegally twice, shit on our laws and then pretend that she's a lightening rod for peace. She brings up a speech that President Bush made a few months ago saying "that our immigration laws are broken, and need to be fixed". So Miss Arellano said she believes she is exempt form deportation becuase our laws are broken anyway. Well, She does not have the right to make that determination. No right whatsoever. Get rid of her.

Amen- post of the day. It's blasphemy to make such an implication.
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:29 am

As I said above....

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
I'll see what I can do (later of course).

I wasn't guaranteeing a source.....only that I would give an honest effort.


I have spent a few hours this morning digging around....and could not find anything recent that would prevent authorities from entering the church. However, I also could not find anything modern that gives them the right to do so. I found heaps of quotes from authorities saying that there is nothing preventing them from going in and making arrests....however no names of the quoters were given nor was any effort made to list the specific statutes that would provide a basis for their claims.


IMO, you can't have it both ways. If you want the church to get it's nose out of government affairs, fine. But you must then expect the government to keep it's nose out of church affairs also....regardless.

I think this whole deal is a great example of how the neocons and their supporters dole out the propoganda....which seems to work very well, especially on those ignorant enough to vote them into office. While all you cops (and cop wannabes) focus on this lady and her son....about 4000 others cross the border daily without the slightest effort to resist them. If you were only smart enough to realise that it is the people YOU put into office that actually want these illegals here....you could then focus your efforts to have a viable solution put into place to stop it.

One final note......The government is NOT God.  no 
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:40 am

*sigh*

Once again we have an unwinnable argument between people who can't think beyond their own prejudices...

In the first place, adherence the law is not the final end of life in these the United States. Those who argue purely on black and white legal grounds forget that some of these precious laws some love to rigidly adhere to were themselves enacted as a result of acts of civil disobedience. Civil rights legislation in the 1960's comes to mind. Also bear in mind that this country was founded as an act of civil disobedience.

That being said, however, the law can't also be blithely ignored when it becomes inconvenient. There is a tradition of civil disobedience in this country, but bear in mind too that there is a cost those who ignore the law must be willing to bear. Sanctuary is a tenet of Church tradition that has probably has no translation in secular law.

The legal tradition of the United States demands respect for the rule of law, but does not imply that it be so rigidly applied as to deny basic human rights and dignity. Nor is it the pervue of law to say someone is to be denied those rights that are granted by God, whose law superceeds any civil or secular autority. This is not our tradition and it was not the intent of our founding fathers, who were influanced by tenets of both natural law (i.e. how we interact with the law of God), and the articulation of basic rights.

In the final analysis, though, in this case there is probably no choice but that the woman in question be deported. The question is far bigger than one hard case, and nor should it be treated as a cause celebre for those impatient with the political process.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 39):
However, I also could not find anything modern that gives them the right to do so.

It's called a warrant, duly issued by a court with jurisdiction over the case. Based on the Immigration and Naturalization Act, 8 USC Code et. sec. Nothing in the INA prevents the federal government from exercising its authority under the INA just because the subject of a deportation order is seeking refuge in a church.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 39):
IMO, you can't have it both ways. If you want the church to get it's nose out of government affairs, fine. But you must then expect the government to keep it's nose out of church affairs also....regardless.

Bull*hit. It isn't a "church affair." Let's say Adolf Hitler had sought refuge in a church at the end of WWII. You going to walk away and let him escape justice simply because he's sought refuge in a church?

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 40):
In the first place, adherence the law is not the final end of life in these the United States. Those who argue purely on black and white legal grounds forget that some of these precious laws some love to rigidly adhere to were themselves enacted as a result of acts of civil disobedience. Civil rights legislation in the 1960's comes to mind. Also bear in mind that this country was founded as an act of civil disobedience.

Yes, it was. So the church members who try and stop federal authorities from carrying out a deportation should likewise be ready to go to jail consistent with those earlier traditions of civil disobedience.

If they don't like it, start working to change the law. Otherwise, they need to obey it or suffer the consequences.

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 40):
Sanctuary is a tenet of Church tradition that has probably has no translation in secular law.

You have that right.

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 40):
The legal tradition of the United States demands respect for the rule of law, but does not imply that it be so rigidly applied as to deny basic human rights and dignity. Nor is it the pervue of law to say someone is to be denied those rights that are granted by God, whose law superceeds any civil or secular autority. This is not our tradition and it was not the intent of our founding fathers, who were influanced by tenets of both natural law (i.e. how we interact with the law of God), and the articulation of basic rights.

Enforcing long standing immigration law statutes is not a denial of basic human rights and dignity. The potential deportee has, by this time, had more than her share of due process.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
Enforcing long standing immigration law statutes is not a denial of basic human rights and dignity. The potential deportee has, by this time, had more than her share of due process.

There is a lot more to human dignity than due process. That is part of the fallacy when human life is reduced down to mere actions at law.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 42):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):Enforcing long standing immigration law statutes is not a denial of basic human rights and dignity. The potential deportee has, by this time, had more than her share of due process.
There is a lot more to human dignity than due process. That is part of the fallacy when human life is reduced down to mere actions at law.

So how has her dignity been negatively impacted?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MesaMXORD
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:05 am

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Lobster (Reply 14):
I think most people agree that legal immigration is the only way to come to that States and that learning ENGLISH is the right thing to do

Hell I was looking at moving to Germany... What did I do? I started learning German, sadly job did not pan out. If I were to move to another country I would learn the Language out of respect.

Source. CNN.com on my nextel web
MESA - fighting common sense one day at a time
 
MesaMXORD
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:05 am

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:50 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209442,00.html

Here is a little more specific source
MESA - fighting common sense one day at a time
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting MesaMXORD (Reply 44):
Hell I was looking at moving to Germany... What did I do? I started learning German, sadly job did not pan out. If I were to move to another country I would learn the Language out of respect.

1. Learning the language is of utmost importance. I am living here in MExico and I had to learn spanish cause no one aint speaking english here. I mean that is just how it is. And in most countries, you must learn the language to survive. The US has been a little complacent in this regard.

2. An illegal immigrant has no rights other than basic human rights. Deportation is fair, cause she did enter the country illegally. Her son was born there, fine, he is legal but she aren't. And if she wanna be with him, he will return with her to Mexico. At 18, he will have the choice of returning to the USA if he so desires.

I think these illegal immigrants have taken the joke too far. Enough is enough. I don't see what the big debate is in congress. It is against the law to go into a country illegally. If you do this, when caught u need to be deported. Mexico does that to central americans that come here illegaly. Other countries do likewise. That is the way the cookie crumbles.
There is something special about planes....
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 39):
However, I also could not find anything modern that gives them the right to do so.

It's called a warrant, duly issued by a court with jurisdiction over the case. Based on the Immigration and Naturalization Act, 8 USC Code et. sec. Nothing in the INA prevents the federal government from exercising its authority under the INA just because the subject of a deportation order is seeking refuge in a church.

Thanks, saved me having to post this . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
So how has her dignity been negatively impacted?

What makes you think I drew such a conclusion? All I said was human rights and dignity cannot be reduced to matters of due process.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 48):
What makes you think I drew such a conclusion? All I said was human rights and dignity cannot be reduced to matters of due process.

If she had all due process rights afforded her, whether her dignity was or was not intact isn't really the issue, because dignity doesn't come into play in reaching a decision to deport someone.

Since you raised the issue, i was interested in knowing just how you considered her dignity to have been impugned. If it hadn't been, why bring it up at all?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 39):
IMO, you can't have it both ways. If you want the church to get it's nose out of government affairs, fine. But you must then expect the government to keep it's nose out of church affairs also....regardless.

Bull*hit. It isn't a "church affair." Let's say Adolf Hitler had sought refuge in a church at the end of WWII. You going to walk away and let him escape justice simply because he's sought refuge in a church?

You are comparing Adolf Hitler to Elvira Arellano? Impressive.  Yeah sure

If you spent a little time reading, you'd know that several times in history heinous criminals were afforded sanctuary. The requirements for them to recieve it were severe and quite unpleasant. If at any time they violated the requirements it meant a guaranteed death penalty (regardless of the crimes they supposedly committed).

Whatever happens under the roof of a church is a church affair. Don't like it? Tough.

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