halls120
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Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:14 am

This excerpt from an article in the New York Times is an eye opener. To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

Quote:
Violent Remarks
British Law Against Glorifying Terrorism Has Not Silenced Calls to Kill for Islam
By SOUAD MEKHENNET and DEXTER FILKINS
LONDON, Aug. 20 --- From his home on the northwest edge of this city, Muhamad al-Massari runs a Web site that celebrates the violent death of British and American soldiers. It is visited by tens of thousands of people every day, he said.

Mr. Massari maintains the Arabic-language site, tajdeed.org.uk, in the face of a strict new law aimed at curtailing violent speech and publishing. Just last week, the Council of Holy Warriors, a group affiliated with Al Qaeda, posted a declaration on the site praising a suicide bombing in Iraq that killed or wounded 55 people.

"If you kill our civilians, we kill your civilians," Mr. Massari declared during an interview.

Mr. Massari's Web site, and his public remarks, appear to violate of the Antiterrorism Act of 2006, which makes it a crime to glorify or encourage political violence. Inciting violence has long been illegal here but the new rules, drawn up after the London subway and bus bombings in July 2005, are intended to be much tougher.

The law's underlying assumption is that speeches and publications by Britain's more extreme Islamists may play a role in leading disgruntled young men toward violence. In addition to banning speech that encourages terrorism, the new law also criminalizes reckless speech that may have the same effect.

Yet despite the antiglorification law, and an array of other measures approved since last summer's bombings, Islamist leaders like Mr. Massari persist, some of them declaring it the duty of British Muslims to kill in the name of Islam.
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Klaus
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

Very true. One can't help wishing that all those people willing to die in the name of their religion, actually would.
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andessmf
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

They all will end up with the same result.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 2):
One can't help wishing that all those people willing to die in the name of their religion, actually would.

Nope, because most people who wished to die in the name of religion are much more willing to take others with them. I wished they all desired to live.
 
halls120
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

Exactly what I was thinking. The more I see of organized religion, the more I think we'd all be better off without it.
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andessmf
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
Exactly what I was thinking. The more I see of organized religion, the more I think we'd all be better off without it.

The usual aim of religion is the preservation of life at any cost. Once you remove a moral imperative for the preservation of life, all bets are off. So to me, religion has a purpose to fill. The problem is when you take any belief system, such as religion, or political system, to justify the killing of those who oppose you.
 
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 5):
The usual aim of religion is the preservation of life at any cost

Hmmm - tell that to, ummm, just about everyone except the Buddhists. Every organised religion at some time or another has actively advocated the killing of those with differing opinions. "Stone the blasphemer", anyone ?
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SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

...with a huge 'yeah but'

Why is it that radical, jihadist Islam is most effective as an argument against Christianity.

It is my admittedly limited observation that Jews are rejecting only the most "orthodox" aspects of their faith but continuing vaguely to believe, whereas Christians are not just rejecting snake-kissing but becoming atheists.

It is my belief that if the trend toward rejection of religion continues the last ones left will be fundamentalist, Taliban-like Islam.

Need I say that I don't see this as a good option.
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Klaus
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 5):
The usual aim of religion is the preservation of life at any cost.

No. That is the most basic human impulse, religious or not.

Religion is about imposing rules and enforcing conformity, almost always including the threat of death against non-conforming individuals.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

It's why I'm becoming to believe, more and more, there is going to be a cataclysmic showdown between the Islamic world and the Western World. Too many in Islam don't want to live and let live, it seems.

Well, if they want that showdown, there's an old saying: be careful what you wish for.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
It is my belief that if the trend toward rejection of religion continues the last ones left will be fundamentalist, Taliban-like Islam.

Just as long as we rid ourselves of the fundamentalist, Taliban-like Christian extremists on the way  Smile
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Klaus
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
Why is it that radical, jihadist Islam is most effective as an argument against Christianity.

I don't see what you're getting at.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
It is my admittedly limited observation that Jews are rejecting only the most "orthodox" aspects of their faith but continuing vaguely to believe, whereas Christians are not just rejecting snake-kissing but becoming atheists

I don't know too much about the jewish side of things, but I see all of that happening on the christian side of things as well.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
It is my belief that if the trend toward rejection of religion continues the last ones left will be fundamentalist, Taliban-like Islam.

Need I say that I don't see this as a good option.

I see that as an excellent option, actually, if everybody else were enlightened nonreligious people and the Taliban were the last ones to follow!

It's the religious fanatics' argument that their fanaticism made them strong. But in reality, that is not the case. They can just achieve some damage, but they're falling by the wayside eventually.
 
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6):

Hmmm - tell that to, ummm, just about everyone except the Buddhists. Every organised religion at some time or another has actively advocated the killing of those with differing opinions.

In any of these discussions, lets try to keep to the present time, shall we?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
It's why I'm becoming to believe, more and more, there is going to be a cataclysmic showdown between the Islamic world and the Western World. Too many in Islam don't want to live and let live, it seems.

What really freaks me out is the similarities between the 1930s and today. The more history I read the more scared I have become. And with the coming real estate crash, now you have a worldwide recession coming.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):

Just as long as we rid ourselves of the fundamentalist, Taliban-like Christian extremists on the way

But as an aside to that, I havent heard of many Christian extremists calling for the death of non-believers.
 
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
if everybody else were enlightened nonreligious

Boy, talk about an elitist statement, there's one.

Just because you don't like religion, nor practice a faith, Klaus, does not make you "enlightened". In my mind, it makes one ignorant, because I do believe in God, and I do have faith in Him.

Again, don't lump everyone who is in an organized religion, or has faith in God, in with the Taliban, or the nuts on the Christian right.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
ut as an aside to that, I havent heard of many Christian extremists calling for the death of non-believers.

Hmmm, I reckon there's some out there that would call for just that if they could get away with it. Some of those fundies are pretty scary - look at that woman protesting at US military funerals - she'd have the Inquisition up and running in a heartbeat if she could.
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cedarjet
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:35 am

6. Thou shalt not kill.

And it's in all the other religions as well. Someone tell Bush, Blair, Bin Laden, Olmert.
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Klaus
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
But as an aside to that, I havent heard of many Christian extremists calling for the death of non-believers.

Their high times are a few centuries in the past - but it's apparently still enough to bomb abortion clinics.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Boy, talk about an elitist statement, there's one.

Not in the least. Overcoming religion is possible for everybody, and the numbers are rising.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Again, don't lump everyone who is in an organized religion, or has faith in God, in with the Taliban, or the nuts on the Christian right.

The conclusions and the methods are different, but the basic superstition is the same.
 
Klaus
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
6. Thou shalt not kill.

And it's in all the other religions as well. Someone tell Bush, Blair, Bin Laden, Olmert.

And in other places of the respective scriptures death, fire and brimstone are happily being rained down on those who refuse to fall into line, with "eternal damnation" just being the icing on the cake.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

No and it never will be.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
Just as long as we rid ourselves of the fundamentalist, Taliban-like Christian extremists on the way

You show me where they are and I"ll help eliminate them.

Where is the established Christian church that dynamites Buddhist temples?

Where is the established Christian church that believes in death by stoning but stipulates that if a woman is to be stoned to death she shall be buried up to her shoulders so that her breasts aren't damaged? (I don't even want to think about why THAT is important!)

Where is the established Christian church that openly (meaning on TV) calls for their faithful to kill non-believers?

And so on...

I'm not talking about 400 years ago. I'm talking right now.

A little honesty and a little perspective, please.
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SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
I don't see what you're getting at.

It is really quite simple.

Millions of westerners, disgusted by what Islam seems to stand for, and what it condones are giving up their Christian faith and feeling guilt over, and even denying the Christian heritage of Europe and North America.

Atheism is REALLY trendy now - among ex-Christians only.
Look around you!
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SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
and the Taliban were the last ones to follow!

Sure, because out of 1.2 Billion Muslims one ten or twenty are extremists, right?

Wrong.

The number of Muslims who publicly (in their own circles) cry out for the destruction of the west is probably already in the millions.
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andessmf
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
but it's apparently still enough to bomb abortion clinics.

And then tell us, how many did those bombings kill? And when was the last time that occurred? And did the US government prosecute those responsible?
 
SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Just because you don't like religion, nor practice a faith, Klaus

Oh but he does! He likes his own religion - atheism.

Atheists are not agnostic, they KNOW there is no God. They have SEEN the no-God. The no-God has talked to them. Atheists are very fundamentalist, very organized in their KNOWLEDGE of the non-existence of God.

Agnstics would never kill for their beliefs - having none. Atheists WILL kill for theirs.

There very well be no God, but fear the atheists.
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SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 14):
I reckon there's some out there that would call for just that if they could get away with it.

This is entirely the product of your own imagination. You "reckon" it. Show us where they are.
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Falcon84
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Overcoming religion is possible for everybody, and the numbers are rising.

Not my fault there's so many ignorant ones in the world, Klaus. I have my faith, and I will keep it. I do not go to a Church now, but that doesn't mean I've lost my faith in God.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
The conclusions and the methods are different, but the basic superstition is the same.

Shows your ignorance. My faith is nothing like that of the Taliban or these right-wing kooks.
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halls120
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

It's why I'm becoming to believe, more and more, there is going to be a cataclysmic showdown between the Islamic world and the Western World. Too many in Islam don't want to live and let live, it seems.

You may be right, although I'm not sure anymore that all the blame belongs on Islam. Extremists within that religion are certainly responsible for stirring the current pot we are in, but when I survey Sunday morning TV in the US, I see a "holier than thou" attitude amongst conservative Christians that scares me almost as much as Islamic extremists.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
It is really quite simple.

Millions of westerners, disgusted by what Islam seems to stand for, and what it condones are giving up their Christian faith and feeling guilt over, and even denying the Christian heritage of Europe and North America.

Atheism is REALLY trendy now - among ex-Christians only.

I haven't "given up" my faith. What I have given up is the idea that one particular religion is the "one true path to God." While modern Christianity hasn't sunk to the depths currently occupied by radical islam, recall that violence in defense of Christianity is alive and well. It isn't islamic extremists that are bombing abortion clinics.....
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JGPH1A
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
Atheism is REALLY trendy now

It's not trendy. It's just applied logic.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21):
The number of Muslims who publicly (in their own circles) cry out for the destruction of the west is probably already in the millions

Source please. It's not millions. Thousands maybe, those who REALLY believe it, in other words about 1% of the total number of people who still believe Elvis is alive. It's a vocal minority.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
Where is the established Christian church that dynamites Buddhist temples?

Where is the established Christian church that believes in death by stoning but stipulates that if a woman is to be stoned to death she shall be buried up to her shoulders so that her breasts aren't damaged? (I don't even want to think about why THAT is important!)

Where is the established Christian church that openly (meaning on TV) calls for their faithful to kill non-believers?

They had their heyday 500 years ago (dynamitic Buddhist temples = Central American genocide, stoning to death = burning at the stake, calling for death = pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, etc etc) , and justifiably have been discarded on the dustheap of history. But you cannot deny that there are some extreme remnants remaining, for instance that freak bitch woman who protests outside military funerals because God Hates Fags. That's damn scary.
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andessmf
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
But you cannot deny that there are some extreme remnants remaining, for instance that freak bitch woman who protests outside military funerals because God Hates Fags. That's damn scary.

And how big is that group? I doubt there is 50 of them in the US.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 26):
It isn't islamic extremists that are bombing abortion clinics.....



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
And then tell us, how many did those bombings kill? And when was the last time that occurred? And did the US government prosecute those responsible?



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21):
The number of Muslims who publicly (in their own circles) cry out for the destruction of the west is probably already in the millions
Source please. It's not millions. Thousands maybe, those who REALLY believe it, in other words about 1% of the total number of people who still believe Elvis is alive. It's a vocal minority.

But how many Muslims are actively preaching against those Muslims crying out for the destruction of the West.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
And how big is that group? I doubt there is 50 of them in the US.

Hard to tell - the disturbingly puritanical trend in one half of U.S. society would have one believe that this kind of fundamentalism is spread wider than one might initially imagine.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
But how many Muslims are actively preaching against those Muslims crying out for the destruction of the West.

How many priests preached against the inquisition, or slavery ? For the first few hundred years, very very few if any. Reform in religion takes time.
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AGM100
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:10 am

How do you propose to counter a enemy who wants to kill you for your religious believes?.

I think the US has done a pretty good job fighting the war based on political ideals rather than religious. But , the idea that the enemy wants to kill us for being Christians or Jews must be a underlying motivator. Although generally not accepted as the reason for the war on terror , it has rallied the Evangelical support for the war.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
Someone tell Bush, Blair, Bin Laden, Olmert.

I have not seen the above mentioned leaders rally support for the war using religious purity as a banner. If you disagree that upholding western democracy as a solution to the disinfranchised muslims, thats one thing. But conversion to Christianisy / Judisim is not the idea of the war in Iraq/Lebabnon.
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SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
It's not trendy. It's just applied logic.

Applied logic? All right let's use some logic.

Can you prove a negative?

Next!


It is not logical, it is an emotional belief in the non-existence, it is a faith-driven 'knowledge' of the non-existence of God.

I neither know, nor care about the existence of God. I do believe in evolution and natural selection. But I am not so vain as to claim that human science can answer all questions. I am not so desperately insecure in religious beliefs as to ignore the questions science and religion cannot answer.

Still I find that talking to a fundamentalist Christian and talking to an atheist is EXACTLY THE SAME EXPERIENCE. The former were fond of saying: "God said it! I believe it! That settles it!" Atheists are just as devout in their proclamations.

I have never seen more megalomaniacal conceit in any other faith than I do in atheists. They have all the smug self-satisfaction of any other religious nut. There is a slap in the face in every answer they make to any person who would question their faith in no-God.

Athiesm is a religion.
It needs to be declared one under law.
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Falcon84
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
I think the US has done a pretty good job fighting the war based on political ideals rather than religious.

I don't know about that one. Didn't the war in Iraq or Afghanistan first have the word "Crusade" in it? And there's no doubt that was used as a reason, or whoever thought of it didn't recognize the historical implication of that word to those of the Islamic faith.

And personally, I believe we'd have done a better job if we hadn't taken our eye off the prize, and gone after Iraq in that damn fool of a war.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
I have not seen the above mentioned leaders rally support for the war using religious purity as a banner.

Not even bin Laden? You're joking, right?
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SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
They had their heyday 500 years ago

Ahh, at last, an admission that you have nothing to say.

Five hundred years ago.
Exactly!

Silly me, using present tense in my posts.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
Athiesm is a religion.
It needs to be declared one under law.


Perhaps it should - at least it would settle the question of whether "freedom of religion" equates to "freedom from religion".

I'm not an atheist, I don't care either way. It is basically irrelevant. There are questions that science has yet to answer, but if I have faith in anything, it's in the probability that the answers will come in due course.
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AGM100
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
"Crusade" in it?

Falcon , I new you would nail that ... and your right. But for the most part the President has talked up freedom more than religion.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
You're joking, right?

I was refering to Bush/Blair/Olmert. My error.
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Falcon84
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
Falcon , I new you would nail that ... and your right. But for the most part the President has talked up freedom more than religion.

I agree, although I was absolutely aghast when that word was used. What was the name of the "operation" and was it in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
I was refering to Bush/Blair/Olmert. My error.

Understood.
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SlamClick
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Didn't the war in Iraq or Afghanistan first have the word "Crusade" in it?

I think I recall Dubya using that word - once!

It is very common in US English to refer to a long-term campaign toward a definable goal as a 'crusade' and personally I find it quite innocent and devoid of religious implications. Perhaps in the interest of PC that is ill-advised. It was neither the first, nor only time Dub used the wrong word. 'Mission accomplished' also comes to mind.
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andessmf
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
Hard to tell - the disturbingly puritanical trend in one half of U.S. society would have one believe that this kind of fundamentalism is spread wider than one might initially imagine.

Then the opposite would be true as well, the number of Christian extremists here would be the same percentage as the number of Muslim extremists, in other words, not much. But the influence they have here is minimal, regardless of what you are led to believe.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 29):
How many priests preached against the inquisition, or slavery ? For the first few hundred years, very very few if any. Reform in religion takes time.

Good point, and I hope Islamic reform is not too far off.
 
Klaus
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
Millions of westerners, disgusted by what Islam seems to stand for, and what it condones are giving up their Christian faith and feeling guilt over, and even denying the Christian heritage of Europe and North America.

What gives you that idea? I've never heard of that.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
Atheism is REALLY trendy now - among ex-Christians only.
Look around you!

Nonsense. Refusing superstitious beliefs - whatever form that may take - is a consequence of knowledge, and it has increased since the renaissance. With the spreading of knowledge, religion is receding in most societies around the globe. And that is a good thing, as long as humanism spreads as well.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21):
The number of Muslims who publicly (in their own circles) cry out for the destruction of the west is probably already in the millions.

I seriously doubt the extent you're insinuating.

The current conflict only uses Islam as a transport medium for cultural and political conflicts which have no other valve in the democratically underdeveloped societies of most "muslim countries". Islam is the only societal force that actually manages to unite them, so this is the coat the conflict is wearing. But it would be a massive misunderstanding to mistake it for the cause.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
And then tell us, how many did those bombings kill? And when was the last time that occurred? And did the US government prosecute those responsible?

I didn't claim the extent of the threat was identical.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 23):
Oh but he does! He likes his own religion - atheism.

Nonsense. I have no religion - that is the whole point! I recognize that religions use collective imagination and I would never dream of forcing anyone to deny taking part in it, the way religions routinely have enforced participation with violent means (and still do in certain cases).

I am very much capable of accessing the spiritual levels on which religion is usually based, I just don't mistake them for a special hotline to imaginary supernatural beings which exist objectively outside of the collective imagination. There is no evidence for that whatsoever, so anything beyond a peaceful exchange about each other's respective imagination is completely objectionable and uncalled for.

And still that is what religions cannot accept since the assumption of their all-powerful supernatural beings would collapse like a soufflé in Antarctica if they didn't (violently if "necessary") fight the notion that a different such being could possibly exist.

The exclusivity and the intolerance is an automatic consequence of the superstition, and only the remaining common sense can hold people back from getting at each others' throats, but the religions themselves are certainly not that tolerant. (Buddhism, not being an actual religion, plays a different role.)

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
Not my fault there's so many ignorant ones in the world, Klaus. I have my faith, and I will keep it. I do not go to a Church now, but that doesn't mean I've lost my faith in God.

No problem - as long as you're not forcing your belief on others or aren't starting wars because you're hearing voices...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
Shows your ignorance. My faith is nothing like that of the Taliban or these right-wing kooks.

As I said, there is a major difference in conclusions and in methods, but the superstitious belief that there was a supernatural being which can tell you what to do is there in either case.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
It's not trendy. It's just applied logic.

Exactly.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
Five hundred years ago.
Exactly!

Silly me, using present tense in my posts.

You are missing the point. It seems that Islam, as a younger religion than Christianity (around 700 years younger) is going through the same upheavals as Christianity went through 500-700 years ago - violence, extremism, intolerance in a small minority, subdued conformism in the vast majority.

It's a remarkable parallel, with a similar split between Shiites and Sunnis as that between Orthodox and Catholic already having happened centuries before. It's more difficult though, as there is not the same monolithic hierarchy as the Catholic church had, so there is very little to rein in the extremes or unite against them. Add the mix 21st century global geopolitics and the wider geographical spread of Islam (as opposed to insular and narrow euro-centrism in the Reformation instance), it becomes far more complicated and the outcome less obvious.

All we can hope is that Islam, like Christianity, will gradually lose relevance as enlightenment takes hold. It'll take a while - took 5 centuries in the case of Christianity.
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 37):
It is very common in US English to refer to a long-term campaign toward a definable goal as a 'crusade' and personally I find it quite innocent and devoid of religious implications.

That might be-to us here in the west, but to even put that word in a conflict against Islam is just ignorant.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 37):
It was neither the first, nor only time Dub used the wrong word. 'Mission accomplished' also comes to mind.

Yes, that one will go down with "Dewey Defeats Truman", in infamy-this one with far bigger import.
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Klaus
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
It is not logical, it is an emotional belief in the non-existence, it is a faith-driven 'knowledge' of the non-existence of God.

Nope. There is simply no evidence for a god, nor any need for one in the universe from everything we know. There is, however, a strong need in the human emotional structure to paint faces on everything in the world. It's not an evil thing, just sonething to stay aware of and drawing the respective conclusions: In case of religion, recognizing it as an expression of the believer's own mind, not something in the outer world which could ever justifiably be forced on others.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
I neither know, nor care about the existence of God. I do believe in evolution and natural selection. But I am not so vain as to claim that human science can answer all questions.

Wrong. Non-religious people generally work on the assumption that science can potentially answer any question, not that it already did.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
Still I find that talking to a fundamentalist Christian and talking to an atheist is EXACTLY THE SAME EXPERIENCE. The former were fond of saying: "God said it! I believe it! That settles it!" Atheists are just as devout in their proclamations.

There are extreme people in all directions; But non-religion does not require any faith - it's fundamental assumption is that belief is redundant regarding the physical world. It is a bit more difficult to justify a crusade from there, although it has been done, of course.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 37):
I think I recall Dubya using that word - once!

It is very common in US English to refer to a long-term campaign toward a definable goal as a 'crusade' and personally I find it quite innocent and devoid of religious implications. Perhaps in the interest of PC that is ill-advised. It was neither the first, nor only time Dub used the wrong word. 'Mission accomplished' also comes to mind.

GWB has stated that "God told me" to go to war. That and his clueless waving of the crusade banner in the face of the descendants of the victims of the earlier crusades was pretty unmistakeable, don't you think?
 
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Nonsense. I have no religion - that is the whole point!

Oh but you do. It is your absolute faith in something you cannot prove - the very definition of faith. But I am repeating myself, post the rest of my remarks about atheism as one of the world's religions.

You cannot say you don't have a religion because you argue against the existence of God with a passion identical to any other faith.
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
. There is simply no evidence for a god

So apparently you don't believe in science or logic either. Did you ever hear this one?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."


But just listen to yourself. You become impassioned when your belief is questioned - precisely like any other religious fundie.

Your vehemence is making my case better than my command of the language could.
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 43):
You cannot say you don't have a religion because you argue against the existence of God with a passion identical to any other faith.

That would be like arguing passionately that water is wet. Why bother ? It doesn't change things. The universe simply does not require a Higher Intelligence. Even if there was one that started the Big Bang, that was a very long time ago, and it hasn't done anything remarkable since then. Bit like Elton John.
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andessmf
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
You are missing the point. It seems that Islam, as a younger religion than Christianity (around 700 years younger) is going through the same upheavals as Christianity went through 500-700 years ago - violence, extremism, intolerance in a small minority, subdued conformism in the vast majority.

OMFG!!!

Many months ago I thought the very same thing, how the progress of Islam and Christianity had followed the same basic path. That is a great, thoughtful post.
 
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 43):
Oh but you do. It is your absolute faith in something you cannot prove - the very definition of faith.

Nope. I'd be just as happy basing my view of the world on the assumption of a supernatural being, provided it presented verifiable evidence for its actual existence.

But so far, that is not the case.

There is nothing in the world that isn't consistent with the nonexistence of a god (or actually, the absence of all the various gods of all the various religions).

So using Occam's Razor, the existence of a god (or of several) is simply redundant and can be cut away from my concept of the world.

I have no absolute "faith" in anything in the physical world. I just argue points which I think deserve to be addressed.

Within the sphere of imagination and interpersonal conventions, I have emotional attachments like most other people; But I don't confuse the material world and what goes on in the human mind. My (and other people's) imaginations tell me a lot about our human minds, but very little about the outside world. That is what science is for.

The two opposing world views are basically these:

Religion tells you it already knows everything about the world, and that your mind can tell you everything about the world.

Science tells you it can find out about pretty much everything that can be tested, including about the human mind.

One offers certainty without verification.

One offers verification without certainty.

The latter has a pretty good record as the basis for the reliable creation of buildings, bridges, cars and airplanes. The former has a pretty problematic record of being on the retreat from advancing science ever since its inception.

So despite the tempting promises, my choice is clear.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 43):
You cannot say you don't have a religion because you argue against the existence of God with a passion identical to any other faith.

My entire view of the physical world is based on the scientific method of discovery and verification. I have no absolute truth to force on anybody. I can argue, but outside of subjective (and thus always fallible) ideas, everything must stand up to objectifiable verification.

Religion simply claims absolute truths. Which is just nonsensical in my view.

What's in my mind is subjective (and still somewhat important) - but if I'm looking for objectivity, it can never come without verification.


Correctly understood, the absence of religion precludes at least a whole class of conflicts (but just one class of conflicts!);

As we can see right now, a constructive approach can be sabotaged by religious extremism, by stubborn ignorance, by vested interests, by the manipulated absence of compassion and by a whole lot of other obstacles.

The current conflict is much, much more complicated than just some people "for no reason" going crazy and becoming fundamentalists. Those are just the tip of the iceberg, and conveniently ignoring the full mechanics of how its "engine" works only plays into the hands of those people who do know about it!
 
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 44):
So apparently you don't believe in science or logic either. Did you ever hear this one?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I've never claimed to have proof of god's absence (although several historical incidents are positive proof that there can't be an all-powerful god which at the same is compassionate since that would be a strong contradiction with events).

What I have explained repeatedly above and elsewhere is simply that there is nothing in the world which needs the asumption of a god for an explanation.

So the assumption can simply be dropped, making the model more consistent.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 44):
Your vehemence is making my case better than my command of the language could.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 44):
That would be like arguing passionately that water is wet.

Which I would do as well if anybody tried to deny the obvious there.
 
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par13del
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RE: Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:52 am

Klaus in reply 39 hit upon something, as societies or countries have progressed and improved their way of life, religion has lost its importance.
In the "West" religion is big business, the followers are devoted, but a poll of the masses show that most do not have a church of their own, visit occasionally, donate when they can.

Humans need something to believe in, based on this world's history, it used to be God, King, Queen, Country, today belief is more in one's self and what one can accomplish. Humanitarian organizations in the West seem to be taking over from the church, where those who believe in philantropy can do so without having to "believe"

In regions of the world where freedom of thought is not "promoted", the need for people to believe is as strong as ever, and religion thrives. I used to think that poverty was the key, but there are area's where this does not apply, hence my belief that it is "freedom of thought".

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