KarlB737
Topic Author
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Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:58 am

Courtesy: The Scotsman

Every Airport Traveller To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=5&id=7689
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:08 am

Its already done on entry into the USA...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:09 am

Great... What's next? A chip in each car so that the government can see where you drive at which time? I think something similiar was already thought about in the UK anyway.

Big Brother is watching you. A nightmare for everybody who loves freedom.
 
B747FAN
Posts: 78
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:19 am

Europe is far more racially divided and less socially integrated compared to other cosmopolitan countries such as USA, Canada, or even India for that matter. Therefore I do believe European Muslims will be looked upon with a keen and discerning eye in general. But, in these times it is necessary and I hope Muslims everywhere will be understanding of why it is happening
) He turns not back who is bound to a star. - Leonardo Da Vinci.
 
sk736
Posts: 529
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:30 am

I recently voluntarily registered for the UK's iris recognition programme - makes entry into certain UK airports quick and effortless. I recommend it to anyone who wants to skip the immigration queues and get on their way with the minimum of fuss.

Quoting B747FAN (Reply 3):
Europe is far more racially divided and less socially integrated compared to other cosmopolitan countries such as USA

Is this an attempt at irony?
 
GSM763
Posts: 573
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting B747FAN (Reply 3):
Europe is far more racially divided and less socially integrated compared to other cosmopolitan countries such as USA, Canada, or even India for that matter. Therefore I do believe European Muslims will be looked upon with a keen and discerning eye in general. But, in these times it is necessary and I hope Muslims everywhere will be understanding of why it is happening

Firstly yes I do believe that Muslims will be looked on more harshly and normally I would be against these things but profiling does go on to an extent anyway so why go on about it. 2nd please get it into your head that Europe is not a country it is a continent and therefore will be more divided than the US for that reason.
 
Robbie86
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:04 am

I can't see how the security can be so maximised on airplanes while trains and ships has none? Like trains and ships can't be blown apart.
 
longhaulheavy
Posts: 376
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting SK736 (Reply 4):
Quoting B747FAN (Reply 3):
Europe is far more racially divided and less socially integrated compared to other cosmopolitan countries such as USA

Is this an attempt at irony?

Well, he's right in a sense. The US has 300 million people who speak the same language (mostly) and share a national culture, as opposed to Europe's spaghetti plate of national borders and language borders. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a fact.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:55 am

Well, as everything concerning Europe that comes from the UK, this is not done yet! UK's real integration into the EU is yet to be done (€ + Schengen -and I would not be surprised if they actually leave the EU someday!-), so no need to say this will be a matter of hot debate in Brussels!
A recent illustration of the "integration" of the UK in the EU : NOT A SINGLE EU country followed the new security rules implemented by the UK, even the Rep. of Ireland with who they share a land border... whereas Canada (not more involved in the attacks than the rest of the EU was) did... We are talking of not less than 24 countries here...

Protection of privacy, even for security reasons, is still a very important issue in most European countries who would sure be somewhat reluctant. That might even be anti-constitutional in some countries, let alone the citizens protests.
- I actually know many Europeans who are extremely unhappy and uncomfortable about being fingerprinted in the US and who make a big deal of it (well, they obviously have no choice but they still make a big deal of it), so no need to say they would feel worse about that being done at home...
When I doubt... go running!
 
MarkATL
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:59 am

Oh sh#t!!! How many pilots will AA have to bail out now? Big grin
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
MRURUN
Posts: 147
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Longhaulheavy (Reply 7):

I think you need to see above, where the poster stated that the EU is not a country, even a remotely federalist country. We are ALL very happy to be different to our friends and neighbours on this continent.
 
DavidT
Posts: 461
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting B747FAN (Reply 3):
Europe is far more racially divided and less socially integrated compared to other cosmopolitan countries such as USA, Canada, or even India for that matter

You have just compared a country to a continent. Of course Europe is more diverse. It is a collection of 25 countries, not 1 single country!


Personally I am all for increased security. People complain about 'big brother' etc - there's no real threat posed to an individual really. imo if you have nothing to hide, you should not be worried.
 
ckfred
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2):
Great... What's next? A chip in each car so that the government can see where you drive at which time? I think something similiar was already thought about in the UK anyway.

Big Brother is watching you. A nightmare for everybody who loves freedom.

Back in 1983, I had to give a thumbprint before taking my LSAT (U.S. entrance exam for law school).

I don't have a problem with the EU or TSA having my iris scan or fingerprints, if it will improve security, reduce the time needed to clear security, and allow some sanity for air travel, including letting my wife bring her bottled water, hand cream, moist towelettes, lip gloss, etc. and not requiring me to remove my overcoat, suit coat, and shoes to go through the metal detector.
 
trex8
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting DavidT (Reply 11):
imo if you have nothing to hide, you should not be worried.

tell that to a bunch of people who enjoyed a very long vacation in Cuba courtesy of the US government for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time!
 
airbazar
Posts: 6868
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2):
Great... What's next? A chip in each car so that the government can see where you drive at which time?

If you've ever rented a car in Europe, it's already in use. Try to rent a car in Germany and drive it into Italy without authorization (and respective pay), from the rental company and the car's engine will promptly shut off as you approach the Italian border. This is done via GPS and it's already widely used. It's current intent is to prevent theft but that's now. Granted it's not the government, it a private company doing it but rest assured soon enough such "feature" will be available in every car sold and it's data won't be to difficult to obtain either.
 
jimbobjoe
Posts: 450
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 12):
Back in 1983, I had to give a thumbprint before taking my LSAT (U.S. entrance exam for law school).

That is still in use today, but the LSAT destroys the fingerprint record after the test has been completed (and is therefore very different in nature than the US-VISIT program, or what is argued here for Europe.)

Since it was done in '83, I suspect that they were doing that even before then, as a way of reducing testing fraud, in the days when many americans didn't have photo ID. It might be retained today more as an anachronism than something useful (which is not to argue that it is either useful today or was useful before.)

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 12):
I don't have a problem with the EU or TSA having my iris scan or fingerprints, if it will improve security,

I can't think of a possible scenario in which any of that is useful. My experience with security is that a lot of ideas are sold heavily by the companies who make them to individuals with the power of the purse who don't know any better.
 
N174UA
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:43 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2):
Big Brother is watching you. A nightmare for everybody who loves freedom.

Freiheit ist nicht frei, mein freund... Wink

Sadly, there are people willing to kill you because you are free and live the life that you and I do. Either we defeat these people, or they will defeat us once and for all. These people don't meet in Geneva over tea and cookies to negotiate a truce. Instead, they use little children to blow up busses preach to people to blow up airplanes and trains to promote their religion and "culture".

So if it means I have to be inconvenienced for a minute or two when I clear Italian customs this coming Sunday morning, then so be it. I won't complain. And I'd bet the vast majority of Europeans who come here don't complain about a fingerprint. Not after they buy their blue jeans and iPods, anyway...
 
flyboy_se
Posts: 709
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting DavidT (Reply 11):
You have just compared a country to a continent. Of course Europe is more diverse. It is a collection of 25 countries, not 1 single country!

hm, dont know what Europe you live in , but the one i live in has 43 countries and not 25.To me Europe is not only EU

Quoting N174UA (Reply 16):
Sadly, there are people willing to kill you because you are free and live the life that you and I do

i have to disagree with you.As much as i hate what the terrorists are doing, i still belive there is a thing that triggered it all. i dont think its a coincidence the terrorists attacked Us, England and Spain in recent attacks. Dont get me wrong , i hate terrorists but i am not buying that crap that they are attacking becuase they hate our freedom. If they hate freedom so much, how come they didnt attack Canada, or Sweden or Netherlands.

just my 2 cents
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
DavidT
Posts: 461
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:04 pm

Quoting Flyboy_se (Reply 17):
hm, dont know what Europe you live in , but the one i live in has 43 countries and not 25.To me Europe is not only EU

The new legislation is an EU rule (hence the 25).  

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 13):
tell that to a bunch of people who enjoyed a very long vacation in Cuba courtesy of the US government for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time!

I highly doubt that having your fingerprint scanned when you check in for a flight will lead anyboddy to Guantanamo.

[Edited 2006-08-22 10:04:36]

[Edited 2006-08-22 10:05:47]
 
N174UA
Posts: 860
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:05 pm

Quoting Flyboy_se (Reply 17):
If they hate freedom so much, how come they didnt attack Canada, or Sweden or Netherlands.

They don't see these countries on their soil trying to improve the lives of people that used to live under the likes of Saddam and other despots, like the screwball running Iran, and Assad in Syria.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there were Canadians, Swiss, Dutch and possibly even Swedish citizens who were killed on 9/11. So indirectly, those countries WERE attacked because of their standard of living and that they were not Islamic fascists. These animals see the two countries who are the most powerful, so they aim for them...UK and the US. If the US and UK don't step up to defeat these terrorists, then who does? China? India? I don't see them doing anything, yet they guzzle just as much (or more) Mideast oil than we do.
 
Joni
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:05 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 8):
Protection of privacy, even for security reasons, is still a very important issue in most European countries who would sure be somewhat reluctant.

I for one visited the US last year and had my fingerprint taken, which miffed me greatly. Next they'll perhaps insist that everyone has their head shaved, to eliminate security threats stemming from people who dye their hair. I think the EU is wrong to adopt this practice. Passports already have facial photographs which are more secure for identification than fingerprints.

Quoting Jimbobjoe (Reply 15):
That is still in use today, but the LSAT destroys the fingerprint record after the test has been completed (and is therefore very different in nature than the US-VISIT program, or what is argued here for Europe.)

The "VISIT" program retains the photos and fingerprints for 100 years, which was only reluctantly revealed after touting hoe benevolent the program is since they only retain them temporarily.

It goes without saying, that you have no way to control that the data is even destroyed after the 100 years.
 
Thorben
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:19 pm

This is just sick. Another anti-freedom measure by these Euro-fascists. If we go on like that, the terrorists win, because they'll have the freedom in Europe completely eradicated. Besides, what will this fingerprinting BS do to stop any terrorist????
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Gary2880
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting Longhaulheavy (Reply 7):

Quoting SK736 (Reply 4):
Quoting B747FAN (Reply 3):
Europe is far more racially divided and less socially integrated compared to other cosmopolitan countries such as USA

Is this an attempt at irony?

Well, he's right in a sense. The US has 300 million people who speak the same language (mostly) and share a national culture, as opposed to Europe's spaghetti plate of national borders and language borders. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a fact.

Well maybe because europe is not a country, that could be a factor!
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
flyboy_se
Posts: 709
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:53 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 19):
They don't see these countries on their soil trying to improve the lives of people that used to live under the likes of Saddam and other despots, like the screwball running Iran, and Assad in Syria.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there were Canadians, Swiss, Dutch and possibly even Swedish citizens who were killed on 9/11. So indirectly, those countries WERE attacked because of their standard of living and that they were not Islamic fascists. These animals see the two countries who are the most powerful, so they aim for them...UK and the US. If the US and UK don't step up to defeat these terrorists, then who does? China? India? I don't see them doing anything, yet they guzzle just as much (or more) Mideast oil than we do

Karma is a funny thing... think about it.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
qm001
Posts: 288
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:31 pm

N174UA,

I am very sorry to burst your extremely arrogant bubble, but whilst the US population barely scrapes at 5% of the global population, you manage to consume more than 60% (Closer to 70%) of ALL global energy.

Can you imagine if suddenly every person was entitled to their own allotment, for example, as China is 20% of the worlds population, they would be entitled to 20% of the energy, what would happen then??? Do I hear the worlds most powerful nation crashing into chaos and anarchy???

Rethink your stance, you are not the world, and you are not the majority, its time both the UK and US learned to sit there and keep their opinions and political "good will" to themselves, and let the rest of us just get on with it.

Remember also, that most of the "fanatics" as you label them, were in fact (Al Qaeda included) created by your own political "good will" during the Cold War, and that the reason that they are so pissed at the US, is that you broke every promise you ever made.

Whilst I am so going to get flamed for these remarks, I am so sick of you (I apologise for the generalisation) always being victims, its time people started realising that they're picking on you for a reason.

Perhaps instead of just invading any country you feel like next time, you could at least bother to wait a few days until the rest of the world sanctions it, that way, we would have avoided an Iraqi invasion and another hot bed of anti Americanism, simply because Bush Jr. wanted to make daddy's dream come true. Strange how those WMD's were never found!

Before anyone has me bumped, please let me explain my reasoning...

I am a European citizen that has lived all over the world, and I have had much exposure to both western culture and beliefs as well as other cultures. the one common element in EVERY culture and belief is to hope for peace, harmony and stability. We all want to live, free, and without hindrance. If everyone had that, there would be no wars, and certainly no super powers. Instead of being angry at a group of people, most of whom have yet to understand why, try to understand why many of the terrorist actions that we have seen in the past 60 years have actually taken place. There is one common reason, and mostly two common enemies. Care to take a guess who? Now without any bias, or being spoonfed propaganda from your governments, try to think why? In almost every case, the reason is quite apparent, it is amounts to either greed, a potential increase in political influence, or power building.

Go back in History 200 years, or even a hundred, what these "animals", as you put them, did to you, was that any worse to what we did to the Native Americans, or African Americans. Come a little closer, to the Communist Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Somalians, the Afghans (twice!!!), the Nicaraguans, the Panamanians, the Haitians and almost the cubans. If I were you, I would feel very grateful that its not just those "animals" that are after you!

I apologise in advance to the forum, this is not meant to be mean, crass or derogatory, but just to get people to think before they make baseless statements that can hurt or offend others.

Regards, QM001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
optionscle
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:08 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting QM001 (Reply 24):
I apologise in advance to the forum, this is not meant to be mean, crass or derogatory

Well it is - Suggested deletion.
 
HBJZA
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:23 pm

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting QM001 (Reply 24):

Congratulation, you used the perfect words and figured it all out.

For my side I have no idea of what fingerprints can do to avoid terrorism ???
 
qm001
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:25 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Eur

Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:01 pm

OptionsCLE,

I see that calling other people animals is ok, but getting them to think about things before they say them, is not ok... This is exactky the kind of illogical thinking I am referring to.

My post is not meant to hurt or offend anyone, just to get people thinking, why! If the day has come where an opinion, fair and unbiased cannot be broadcast on such a forum, escpecially after previously inflammatory remarks, then we might as well just pack up any ideas we have of what freedom or democracy is now, just incase we might inadvertently offend anyone for telling the truth!

Sorry but I don't agree, its time someone spoke the truth. What is untruthful or unjust about any of my statements?

Kind regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)

[Edited 2006-08-22 12:03:10]
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
optionscle
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:08 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:18 pm

Quoting QM001 (Reply 27):
If the day has come where an opinion, fair and unbiased cannot be broadcast on such a forum, escpecially after previously inflammatory remarks, then we might as well just pack up any ideas we have of what freedom or democracy is now, just incase we might inadvertently offend anyone for telling the truth!

Sorry to burst your bubble but the day HAS come on this forum. This is an AVIATION forum, not free webspace to post your political beliefs. People do not come here to read what you think about American foreign policy. Nor do they come here to read my remarks to you, so I am done with this topic. Your posts will be deleted soon enough, as will mine. I suggest you simply stop adding to this thread unless it actually adds to the discussion at hand.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5434
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 16):
Sadly, there are people willing to kill you because you are free and live the life that you and I do. Either we defeat these people, or they will defeat us once and for all.

Third possibility is that we defeat ourselves by introducing Orwellian measures like this fingerprinting nonsense.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:37 pm

Quoting Robbie86 (Reply 6):
I can't see how the security can be so maximised on airplanes while trains and ships has none? Like trains and ships can't be blown apart.

Trains have been bombed. It's just that bombing a train doesn't seem to have the same emotional impact that blowing up a plane in midair has.

Cruise ships are a target, and in the US at least, the companies that operate them are increasing security measures.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 16):
Sadly, there are people willing to kill you because you are free and live the life that you and I do. Either we defeat these people, or they will defeat us once and for all. These people don't meet in Geneva over tea and cookies to negotiate a truce. Instead, they use little children to blow up busses preach to people to blow up airplanes and trains to promote their religion and "culture".

 checkmark 

Quoting Joni (Reply 20):
Passports already have facial photographs which are more secure for identification than fingerprints.

Oh really? Given the ease at which one can forge or counterfeit a passport, I'm not sure I'd agree.

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 28):
Sorry to burst your bubble but the day HAS come on this forum. This is an AVIATION forum, not free webspace to post your political beliefs. People do not come here to read what you think about American foreign policy. Nor do they come here to read my remarks to you, so I am done with this topic. Your posts will be deleted soon enough, as will mine. I suggest you simply stop adding to this thread unless it actually adds to the discussion at hand.

He ought to just come on over to the non-av board - US bashing is alive and well over there!  Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
qm001
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:25 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:18 pm

OptionsCLE,

Now I am in agreement with you. This is an aviation forum, but I was simply responding to a previous response and trying to set the record straight.

I would be happy for my response to be deleted when every other non related response on this forum is removed along with it.

Sory but I stand by my post.

Just for your information, these are not MY political views, but as I said before, the truth. Since you have no real basis for argument and not one counter point, I assume that it must be.

Kind regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
SAA346
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:00 pm

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:36 pm

The EU and UK have an aggressive plan on biometrics for passports, visas and ID cards.

It's coming, it's unavoidable, it's law. C'est la vie : Whether its fingerprints or retinal scans or fotos.

Type in "e-borders" on any search engine and you'll get hits for most every country in the first world.

A simple foto is not decent enough ID in todays world. Valid visa and valid passport and in the back streets for US$1000 the foto is changed and immigration won't pick it up - this is fact worldwide, not heresay or herecy.

Nowt we can do about it, civil liberties aren't considered.

But whether it will work and achieve the political/practial goals - we'll see!
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Qm001 (Reply 31):
Now I am in agreement with you. This is an aviation forum, but I was simply responding to a previous response and trying to set the record straight.

I would be happy for my response to be deleted when every other non related response on this forum is removed along with it.

If you want to conduct a political discussion, why not take it over to the non-av board?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Qm001 (Reply 31):

Could you please switch off 'high drama mode' this is an aviation not policital forum so if you have views they would be better expressed elsewhere!
 
airbazar
Posts: 6868
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 16):
Freiheit ist nicht frei, mein freund...

Sadly, there are people willing to kill you because you are free and live the life that you and I do.

Typical American BS political propaganda. Do you really think terrorists give a crap of what freedom you or anybody has or don't have? Freedom my friend, has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of people in the World with a lot more freedom than what we have, and you don't exactly see terrorists lining up to bomb them. They hate our existence, not our freedom. Don't confuse the two. For as long as we exist they will hate us and will try to kill us, mostly Americans or America. There's very little we can do to stop it other than to become like them, and that I am not willing to accept. The fact that so many people like youself are willing to give up your freedom and way of life so easily, is not a good prognosis for our survival.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 19):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there were Canadians, Swiss, Dutch and possibly even Swedish citizens who were killed on 9/11.

It's called Collateral Damage. Killing those people was not the primary intent, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. In fact, killing a large number of people was never the intent anyway, or they would have done it at 10am instead of 8am. They were looking for the greatest symbolism. In fact we now know, they never expected the towers to collapse either. That was just a bonus for them.

There's no such thing as 100% safety. We can spend all our money and efford making air travel safe and they will likely find a way around it. Today you're still more likely to die in a car accident on your way to the airport, than in a terrorist attack. The best we can hope for is to reduce the probability of an attack and the British authorities just showed us how that's done. At this point I have no confidence that if that same plot had taken place here in the US, that it would have resulted in the same happy ending. And that's where we should be spending our money and effort, not strip searching people at the airport or fighting some screwed up, good for nothing, war.
 
columbia107
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting QM001 (Reply 24):
Perhaps instead of just invading any country you feel like next time, you could at least bother to wait a few days until the rest of the world sanctions it, that way, we would have avoided an Iraqi invasion and another hot bed of anti Americanism, simply because Bush Jr. wanted to make daddy's dream come true.

Although I have suggested that the post be deleted as it is non aviation related, it is funny but today your "rest of the world" cannot even agree in mustering a force to ensure the safety of ordinary peace loving civilians of both Lebanon and Israel. Now one may say that this due to the lack of clarity regarding the existing agreement regarding the cessation of hostilities. Frankly, what does the "rest of the world" expect to confront in south Lebanon. A beach party!

I am not here to prove whether it was right or wrong to invade Iraq but I can certainly say that the action got rid of a dictator who if he would have remained in power would today be threatening our way of life - most likely with WMDs. After all it has not taken long for Iran to be on the verge of acquiring such weapons.

I think these remarks destroys your assumed myth that yours have no real basis for argument and not one counter point.

Finally lets focus on our beloved world of all things aviation.
In God we trust
 
SAA346
Posts: 69
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:22 pm

Interesting how there's some snarling going on here and I think this is one of the few topics that has a direct impact on Civ-Av but cannot be seperated from the political overtones of government reasoning (just my opinion, ok)

Pick a government, pick e-borders, pick a white paper or law and you see the impact on travel but cannot escape the political reality of what they (govts.) are trying to achieve.
 
B747FAN
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:07 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting DavidT (Reply 11):
You have just compared a country to a continent. Of course Europe is more diverse. It is a collection of 25 countries, not 1 single country

My mistake for not clarifying. I ment to say the EU countries trying to pass a joint constitution, trying to become a united force, with a universal currency. Sure you have seperate languages, and cultures which is why integration is difficult for immigrants. Which is why they are looked upon differently. Lot of the EU immigrants are poor, have language problems, and therefore form communities within which they feel comfortable. Some of these communities become radical and some very peaceful. But since we don't know which is which, profiling will be common place. Everyone generalizes, even the TSA, or the security gaurds at the European airports. It is human nature to do so.
) He turns not back who is bound to a star. - Leonardo Da Vinci.
 
airbazar
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting B747FAN (Reply 38):
Lot of the EU immigrants are poor, have language problems, and therefore form communities within which they feel comfortable. Some of these communities become radical and some very peaceful. But since we don't know which is which, profiling will be common place. Everyone generalizes, even the TSA, or the security gaurds at the European airports. It is human nature to do so.

Man, you just keep burrying yourself  Smile
You're telling me that those Mexicans jumping over the fence are all rich, fluent in english, and are fully integrated into US society?  rotfl  I wonder why our cities have Chinatowns and Little Italys, and other Immigrant comunities. Your idea of poor is also flawed. You're looking at it strictly from a materialistic perspective. Yes, some likely can't afford big screen TV's and their own car, but they have healthcare and living assistance that is better than what some hard working Americans have.

I'm all in favor of profiling, but racial profiling at airports alone is not the solution. They didn't catch the guys in England by racial profiling. It was the community handed them in. Without the help from the community, these guys would have not been caught. You start doing racial profiling and pissing off the community leaders, and you lose your biggest allies in the fight against terrorism.
 
MRURUN
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:17 pm

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Columbia107 (Reply 36):

Heellloooo. HE DIDNT HAVE ANY WMD....THAT WAS A LIE!!. OMG, i;ve heard of people still falling for this....stuff....but come on, READ THE INTERNET AND NOT JUST FOX/JUDGE REPORTS!! Please get rid of ALL dictators in the world, but your argument ends up with egg on its face when Fidel and Raul are cutting their cake and taking their meds 80 miles away from you. Please start (and preferably keep) your military boys scouts in your neighborhood. (Apologies to the poor individuals of LATAM/SOTAM/CARRIB/ and in particular GND).

(/rant)
 
qm001
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:13 am

I am all for e-borders, but I believe firmly that it should not be enforced, but rather voluntary. I know that there are various political views around that say otherwise, and that is their opinion.

I am glad that all of you readers have given your opinions.

A nations security, will never be guaranteed, unless you have no-one living in it. Even in the US, there are domestic terrorists. The same has now come to light in the latest UK catch. These were not Taleban warriors from the mountains, but well trained Brits. If they were still unknown, and went through an E-border, would that stop them from acheiving their goals? If we stopped all arabic looking people from travelling would that stop terrorism? Timothy McVeigh would be a prime example of a middle american who was a terrorist, but would his profile have alerted authorities whilst travelling, probably not.

We will all have to get used to the fact, that until the world, and I am referring to the whole world, starts to deal with these extremists as what they are, a small isolated group, and as AirBazaar said,

Quote:
AIt was the community handed them in. Without the help from the community, these guys would have not been caught

. Start working with people to help you, and not against them.

Please remember that not all terrorists are Islamic, the old Lady next door to you could be one, that is the point.

I am very glad that this got everyone talking!

Kind regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
drexotica
Posts: 150
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 20):
I for one visited the US last year and had my fingerprint taken, which miffed me greatly. Next they'll perhaps insist that everyone has their head shaved, to eliminate security threats stemming from people who dye their hair. I think the EU is wrong to adopt this practice. Passports already have facial photographs which are more secure for identification than fingerprints.

Very odd. I personally could care less regarding finger printing. If someone wants to fingerprint me - fine. Why would it bother someone that is not doing anything illegal?

Passports don't strike me as particularly secure - i.e., they've been regularly counterfitted in the past.

I'll vote for finger printing and iris scanning anytime.
N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
 
atlantic
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:09 pm

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 35):
Typical American BS political propaganda. Do you really think terrorists give a crap of what freedom you or anybody has or don't have? Freedom my friend, has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of people in the World with a lot more freedom than what we have, and you don't exactly see terrorists lining up to bomb them. They hate our existence, not our freedom. Don't confuse the two. For as long as we exist they will hate us and will try to kill us, mostly Americans or America. There's very little we can do to stop it other than to become like them, and that I am not willing to accept. The fact that so many people like youself are willing to give up your freedom and way of life so easily, is not a good prognosis for our survival.

perfectly put!
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2):
Big Brother is watching you. A nightmare for everybody who loves freedom.

...and a welcome move for everybody who loves to stay alive, perhaps... smile 

Quoting QM001 (Reply 41):
Please remember that not all terrorists are Islamic, the old Lady next door to you could be one, that is the point.

True, but a disturbingly large proportion of terrorists are Islamic and commit their acts in the name of their religion....

I for one, hope that this becomes a worldwide practice, adopted by all coutries....we would definitely like to continue living and traveling the way we have in the past, but we have to change and adapt with the times....and let's accept it rather than hide from the fact - that times are really troubled....
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting QM001 (Reply 41):
Please remember that not all terrorists are Islamic, the old Lady next door to you could be one, that is the point.

Total red herring. When was the last time the "little old lady living next door" blew herself up in a crowded marketplace? Or was planning on bombing a trans-atlantic flight? Or flew a plane into a building?

On the other hand, when was the last time Islamic terrorists did those things?

Yeah, I'll take my chances with the little old ladies, thanks.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting QM001 (Reply 24):
I am very sorry to burst your extremely arrogant bubble, but whilst the US population barely scrapes at 5% of the global population, you manage to consume more than 60% (Closer to 70%) of ALL global energy.

Can you imagine if suddenly every person was entitled to their own allotment, for example, as China is 20% of the worlds population, they would be entitled to 20% of the energy, what would happen then??? Do I hear the worlds most powerful nation crashing into chaos and anarchy???

You start off well...

Quoting QM001 (Reply 24):
Perhaps instead of just invading any country you feel like next time

...and then you must inject that tired, moronic argument into it. Your reply's credibility comes crashing down.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting SK736 (Reply 4):
Quoting B747FAN (Reply 3):Europe is far more racially divided and less socially integrated compared to other cosmopolitan countries such as USA
Is this an attempt at irony?

Oh please stop pulling on words. What he meant to say (at least this is what I think) that societies in Europe tend to be more segregated than their North American counterparts. Even level headed Europeans will admit that they haven't got the whole integration thing down as well as the US, Canada, or even the UK. It is very common in suburban North American streets to see Muslims, Jews, Whites, etc. living on the same street. One only has to look at the Paris riots to see where Europe stands. Of course the US isn't perfect in racial matters, but it does have a lot more experience than Europe when it comes to immigration.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
aerobalance
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RE: Every Airport Flier To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Every Airport Traveller To Be Fingerprinted In Europe

Whatever.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."

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