mdsh00
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CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:55 am

And in another round of insecure xenophobes gone crazy, a Colorado geography teacher was ordered to remove flags of China and Mexico, which he said he planned to use for his lessons. The principal cited a state law which banned it, though it was never enforced before. And now the teacher is placed on leave.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...tail.html?subid=22100484&qs=1;bp=t

And people wonder why we Americans are so bad when it comes to geography.
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aloges
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:05 am

 rotfl 

Only in Amurrahca! America however...  Wink
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Aeroflot777
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
And people wonder why we Americans are so bad when it comes to geography.

I met 3 girls in England who asked me where I'm from. Upon telling them "Russia", they looked at me and asked "What's a Russia?"
That was enough for me.

Lack of geographical knowledge is a world-wide problem too. But removing flags from a geography class is truly irrational.

Aeroflot777
 
Scorpio
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:14 am

I truly don't know whether to laugh or cry with this one...

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Only in Amurrahca!

Well, to be fair, the Americans don't hold the monopoly for this kind of stupidity. Remember the 'don't call kids smart' stunt?
 
aloges
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
Well, to be fair, the Americans don't hold the monopoly for this kind of stupidity.

Which is more or less my point - seeing how most Americans right in this forum can't believe these stories either.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
Remember the 'don't call kids smart' stunt?

No, fortunately I don't.  relieved 
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tbar220
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:19 am

This is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while, I almost expect it to come from The Onion its so asinine.
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usnseallt82
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:27 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

One is dismissed for burning a flag in the classroom...understandable. But this one is put on leave for showing another country's flag?

Pathetic.  no 
Crye me a river
 
CastleIsland
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
One is dismissed for burning a flag in the classroom...understandable.

Sorry to weigh in here instead of the previous thread, but while what that teacher did was over the top, especially to 7th-graders, but as done, I think, for demonstrative purposes, it's not really offensive to me. When done in anger by far-away Islamic sympathisers (such as those in Indonesia after 9/11), it offends me enough to want to take no prisoners amongst their rank. Same goes for Americans here to make a political point at a rally or some such. That's either anger or supreme stupidity, or both. No sympathy here.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
But this one is put on leave for showing another country's flag?

Pathetic.

 redflag 

Absolute bullshit. Why not just say it? You won't get banned for the truth in this matter.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
usnseallt82
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
it's not really offensive to me.

That's fine. Your opinion. But my point was that in that situation, the teacher's dismissal is more understandable than one who is just showing another nation's flag.

It just seems like another example of how someone's parents got their ever-so-hypersensitive-panties-in-a-fucking-wad. I wonder sometimes what the world is coming to.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
Absolute bullshit. Why not just say it? You won't get banned for the truth in this matter.

I did say it. Its pathetic.
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Falcon84
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:07 pm

I'm sure we'll find someone on here who will defend this completely un-American idiocy.

Welcome to the post-9/11, current anti-foreigner mindset of some Americans.
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HAWK21M
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:23 pm

Amazing.Out here the classes use Flags of other nationalities with no problem for Education Purposes.
regds
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deltagator
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:53 pm

I'm here in Boulder and this guy is right down the road in Denver/Jefferson County. The news this morning said he has been reinstated and will be allowed to display foreign flags on a temporary basis for his class.

I was kind of sleepy when they were talking about it on the news but IIRC they said the law had been put in place last year thatno foreign flags could be permanently displayed next to the US flag. Whether this "law" was a local JeffCo thing or all of Colorado I have no idea. What cracks me up is the zero-tolerance crap in schools. More like zero though instead for the administrators.

While I think that the whole incident is completely retarded it is also not the norm though the xenophobia in the US does seem to be more active these days.
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Doona
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 11):
they said the law had been put in place last year thatno foreign flags could be permanently displayed next to the US flag.

But if the teacher used the flags for a class, it's not permanent, right?

Cheers
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HAWK21M
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 11):
they said the law had been put in place last year thatno foreign flags could be permanently displayed next to the US flag

Why was this.Is there a doubt of Patriotism.
regds
MEL
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deltagator
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 12):
But if the teacher used the flags for a class, it's not permanent, right?

That is what I would believe but the intelligence level of government school administrators leave something to be desired. Zero tolerance = zero thought needed.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
Why was this.Is there a doubt of Patriotism.

Heck if I know. Like I said I don't know if it was a JeffCo thing or for the whole state of Colorado. Most likely some kneejerk reaction by some peckerwood all about loving America and not wanting the Stars and Stripes to have to share airtime with some other country. BTW the two flags were Mexico and Communist China though I doubt the original ruling against the guy would have changed even if the flags were Andorra and Australia (trying to find 2 countries that are pretty neutral in the thoughts of Americans.)

At the end of the day the guy is a damn geography teacher and showing students the flag is no big deal to me. I have no problems with other country's flags and think kids need to know what they are. If this was done in the name of Patriotism then I say poo poo to the guv'mint dweeb who came up with the law/rule. Xenophobia is one thing but fear of a foreign country's flag?...come on Colorado, get with the program.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Doona
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 14):
Zero tolerance = zero thought needed

Indeed, sir.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
tbar220
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:28 am

I had a thought about this story today. We have in this country an alarming rise in high school dropouts and youth illiteracy, our students are becoming the laughingstock of the world, and these schools throw a fit because of a foreign flag?

Priorities, priorities, priorities...
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aloges
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 16):
Priorities, priorities, priorities...

It happens all too often - keep people busy bitching about little things, then they won't notice your big mistakes.

[Edited 2006-08-25 21:32:55]
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searpqx
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 11):
The news this morning said he has been reinstated and will be allowed to display foreign flags on a temporary basis for his class.

Glad to hear that some sanity has prevailed. From a contract enforcement/arbitration stand point, the administration would have had a hard time making the suspension stick.

So, I'm assuming that the French/German/Spanish classes don't display the respective flags? What about those big wall maps that have all the flags around the borders, I'm assuming they've scoured the schools looking for those as well haven't they?  sarcastic 

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
It happens all too often - keep people busy bitching about little things, then they won't notice your big mistakes.

 checkmark 
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:53 am

My sixth grade classroom teacher always had her classroom filled with the flags of the world's nations. There must have been a hundred of them. No one ever complained.

Why would Colorado have such an idiotic a state law?

Mark
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gkirk
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
Well, to be fair, the Americans don't hold the monopoly for this kind of stupidity. Remember the 'don't call kids smart' stunt?

Wasn't that passed by the EU?  stirthepot 
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Capital146
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 2):
met 3 girls in England who asked me where I'm from. Upon telling them "Russia", they looked at me and asked "What's a Russia?"
That was enough for me.

Good grief, that is appalling! I think just about everyone in England has at least HEARD of Russia, even if some don't have the knowledge to be able to point it out on a map (though I suspect most would still be able to do that, or at the very least get the correct region).

After all, 90% of all students have gained A or A* results in their exam results here, so they must be smart, not the exams getting easier.  Yeah sure
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SlamClick
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:26 am

For those of you above who either did not read the attached article, or those of you with sub-grade level reading skills he was not punished for "showing" a foreign flag.

The school had pre-existing rules prohibiting "permanent" display of non-US flags. The principal visited the classroom, saw these flags displayed, enquired about upcoming curriculum, found there was no specific reason to be displaying them and asked that the be removed. Display not tied to a specific timeframe such as a syllabus segment, begins to look pretty "permanent" to the principal. The teacher refused. That was and is considered "insubordination" which is a punishable offense almost everywhere in the world.

Hint to teachers: When your BOSS asks you to remove something from the classroom and cites a specific written rule as justification, it is probably best to comply. Refusal to do so, especially if the students have become aware of the issue is not a good idea. Comply, and take the issue up with the boss in private.

It probably applies where YOU work too.

It has nothing to do with

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Amurrahca!

being a bunch of ignorant hillbillies. A moment's thought (omitted by so many here) can provide justification for such a rule. Teacher puts flags of Mexico and China on apparently permanent display, students from Guatemala and Laos feel their cultures have been slighted. Cost of defending against lawsuit are not proportional to their merit and contribute nothing to education.

This "news story" would hot have gained our attention if it were not for insinuation, half-truths, wrong assumptions and sensationalism.

Non-event.
Next!
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AGM100
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:26 am

He was not dismissed for hanging the flags , he was dismissed for breaking the rules. According the article the rules are that you do not fly foreign flags unless it is directly tied to the curriculum. The school reviewed the cirricilum and deemed the flags not relevant.

Now adays , if teachers were allowed to fly any flag , you know what we would have . Everything but the US flag ...
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searpqx
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
For those of you above who either did not read the attached article, or those of you with sub-grade level reading skills he was not punished for "showing" a foreign flag.

Ah - didn't take long for someone to not only defend the law (note I said law and not suspension), but be insulting to everyone else about it as well! Good job!  sarcastic 

By the way I read most of the posts, including my own, most of the comments were commenting on the stupidity of the law, and only tangently for the enforcement of it. And from how quickly it appears the school has reinstated him, it appears that the school also had second thoughts.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
SlamClick
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 24):
Ah - didn't take long for someone to not only defend the law

Another interpretation of what you read in my post is this:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
Cost of defending against lawsuit

That is not an argument in favor of the law, but a justification for it. It is at least as easy to interpret my words as a lament over the litigious nature of our society as a defense for jingoism.

So in your case I guess the problem is not the reading but the forming of logical conclusions based on what you've read.

One more thing: It is NOT the job of public employees to decide which laws they will obey and which they will flagrantly violate. What will be the message taken from this by the students if the teacher's pointless rule-flouting is upheld?

That was a question.

You see, most of us who do read and who do think are painfully aware that there are many ill-considered laws on the books. We also understand that changing them is a better tactic than simply violating them.
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Scorpio
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
or those of you with sub-grade level reading skills he was not punished for "showing" a foreign flag.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
So in your case I guess the problem is not the reading but the forming of logical conclusions based on what you've read.

Any chance of you dropping the high and mighty condescending tone there buddy?
 
mdsh00
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
For those of you above who either did not read the attached article, or those of you with sub-grade level reading skills he was not punished for "showing" a foreign flag.

If you also read a majority of these posts you'd see that people are criticizing the stupidity of the law and the principle behind it. As well as the inconsistency in enforcing it as the teacher was never told to take them down in his previous job.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 23):
Now a days , if teachers were allowed to fly any flag , you know what we would have . Everything but the US flag ...

A little insecure are we? I don't see any reason to believe that.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
searpqx
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:31 am

Actually, your full statement:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
Cost of defending against lawsuit are not proportional to their merit and contribute nothing to education.

sounds decidedly like a rationale for the existence of the law. So I'll change defend to rationalize and accept that you are lamenting - happy? Either way, while most were commenting on the absurdity of the law, you were finding rationale for it, and insulting previous posters while doing it. Since my ability to draw logical conclusions is actually pretty good, it sure seemed like you were defending it. Since you've been so 'kind' as to explain yourself, I stand corrected.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
You see, most of us who do read and who do think are painfully aware that there are many ill-considered laws on the books. We also understand that changing them is a better tactic than simply violating them.

And those of us that are familiar with labor law/contracts, especially as it applies to education, can recognize when something is out of whack. If the principal and teacher didn't agree on whether the flags applied to the curriculum, then there are plenty of steps prior to suspension. The fact that it hadn't been enforced prior to this also implies something amiss. Bottom line, suspending the teacher because he didn't take down the flags is an over reaction.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
trekster
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:05 am

Should my school teacher of been banned. We had loads of foreign flags up in school. Lots.

America is just getting stupid. BANNING a Sunday school teacher as well. FOR BEING A WOMAN. This is just getting to funny (SARCASM THERE)
Where does the time go???
 
searpqx
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Trekster (Reply 29):
America is just getting stupid. BANNING a Sunday school teacher as well. FOR BEING A WOMAN. This is just getting to funny

At the risk of sounding like SlamClick  Wink - read the post before making sweeping statements - America neither banned the flags nor the sunday school teacher. One was a state law, and one was an individual. Just as the infamous actions quoted by Scorpio don't define Europeans, this doesn't define America.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
trekster
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:15 am

A state law that said they can not permantly be up. But they were being used for lessons.

And the sunday school teacher. Well, being sacked because she represented the evil of EVE, and should not be teaching young men her evil ways makes that chuch leader sound like a very strange man. Seeing as though she held that role for 20 years did not make a difference
Where does the time go???
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
You see, most of us who do read and who do think are painfully aware that there are many ill-considered laws on the books. We also understand that changing them is a better tactic than simply violating them.

So, I guess, SC, Rosa Parks should have been a good little colored, and just shut up and sat in the back of the bus, till some white fool changed the law.

That's what you imply.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
bill142
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:45 am

Marge Simpson: "It took the children 45 minute to find Canada on the map"

Homer: "Oh anyone can miss Canada, all tucked away down there"
 
SlamClick
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 26):
Any chance of you dropping the high and mighty condescending tone there buddy?

I'm sorry. They are geniuses for getting it so wrong.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
airbus3801
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
Sorry to weigh in here instead of the previous thread, but while what that teacher did was over the top, especially to 7th-graders, but as done, I think, for demonstrative purposes, it's not really offensive to me. When done in anger by far-away Islamic sympathisers (such as those in Indonesia after 9/11), it offends me enough to want to take no prisoners amongst their rank. Same goes for Americans here to make a political point at a rally or some such. That's either anger or supreme stupidity, or both. No sympathy here.

That is confusing to me. They are demonstrating and you said you don't have a problem with it for demonstrative purposes, yet they are doing it for demonstrative purposes.
 
SlamClick
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting Trekster (Reply 29):
Should my school teacher of been banned. We had loads of foreign flags up in school. Lots.

America is just getting stupid. BANNING a Sunday school teacher as well. FOR BEING A WOMAN. This is just getting to funny (SARCASM THERE)

No, your teacher should be reprimanded for not teaching you the difference between "of" and "have" as seen here

Quoting Trekster (Reply 29):
teacher of been

Which makes your

Quoting Trekster (Reply 29):
America is just getting stupid.

...ironic and funny.

Quoting Trekster (Reply 29):
BANNING a Sunday school teacher

The person in question was "fired" or "terminated" or "released from employment" but not banned. Banned means prohibited.

Your teacher should also have told you the difference between T-O and T-O-O and T-W-O as in...

Quoting Trekster (Reply 29):
This is just getting to funny



So if you are going to make comments about America "getting stupid" you should educate youself first so as not to sound like a complete idiot. I should also point out your error - for which those of us here in the US get criticised all the time - in calling the USA "America." When you say "America is getting stupid" you are tarring everyone from northern Canada to Tierra del Fuego with that brush. We are all Americans.

I'm getting tired of self-righteous Europeans, Brits particularly making this baseless claim - in inferior English.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
coyoteguy
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
And people wonder why we Americans are so bad when it comes to geography.

Heard on Jeopardy (college week!) two nights ago:

Alex (paraphrased): "Do you know the way to this two word capital of Costa Rica?"

Genius contestant: "What is Boca Raton?"

And there my friends is the state of geography teaching in the USA. Case closed?

[Edited 2006-08-26 02:42:49]
 
SlamClick
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
So, I guess, SC, Rosa Parks should have been a good little colored, and just shut up and sat in the back of the bus, till some white fool changed the law.

That's what you imply.

Huge leap there and really dishonest to bring the emotionally charged race issue in here as if it had anything to do with this.

Besides, that kind of talk is cheap. I'll bet that if I worked near where you work I could catch you in the act of obeying your bosses instructions - which is all this teacher need to have done.

What earthly good did his little demonstration do? Do his students know more about geography now because he selected two out of about two hundred national flags to display? Here is something useful - ALL OF THEM can be seen on the internet.

No, it was just a pissing contest. He lost round one.

What if it was not the flags of Mexico and China. Make it something else, not flags at all even. Is the teacher just inherently right, righteous for challenging authority? I think that sort of nonsense actually damages the educational process.

The Mayor of the city visited my daughter's civics class. The teacher had a brief dialogue with him during the introduction, then left the classroom. The mayor then said to the students: "Well, now that the fat bitch has left, what do you really want to talk about?" As a school kid she and her friends loved it. Now, ten years later they think it was really inappropriate.

But there is a whole segment of our society that revels in disrepectful behaviour FOR ITS OWN SAKE and not for any actual purpose. I'm just a little tired of it. It is a graffiti mentality.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
AGM100
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 27):
A little insecure are we? I don't see any reason to believe that.

I guess so, the class room especially a geography class is not the place for politics. But lets say the teacher decided to put up a Israeli flag beside the US flag in the classroom.? And then openly discussed how muslims are trying to kill all the jews. Would this be OK ?

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 28):
If the principal and teacher didn't agree on whether the flags applied to the curriculum, then there are plenty of steps prior to suspension.

I agree with this , but from the article we can not tell if the teacher was just being belligerent about it. I cant tell what happened leading up to the suspension.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:20 am

I agree with teachers following the rules, but there comes a time when breaking them is necessary. It's getting to the point where teachers are expected to be like robots, teach straight from the book and add nothing else. Think about your days in school. For me at least, the teachers who made an impact on my life did not always do things 100% to the book. I recall a US History teacher I had who is a Vietnam War Vet. He started to cry when he was talking about the war, and his stories in the war. That made more of an impact on me as opposed to a teacher reading to us about the war. I know these are not in the same league, I'm simply making a point that teachers who don't strictly follow the rules can make huge a huge impact on a child's life. I understand this is a state law, but it's good someone challenged it. It's hard enough to keep a kid's attention in class. Imagine how boring school would be if no teacher ever challenged the rules.

Obviously there should be limits and teachers should have the common sense not to cross them. Flag burning may be extreme, but displaying other nation's flags? Not so much to me. Heck, I bet there were Chinese and Mexican students in this teacher's class.

I agree with this quote the teacher said:

"It's much along the lines of a science teacher who puts up a map of the solar system. They may not spend every day and every lesson talking about Mars, but they want the students to see that and to see the patterns of the planets and the order, and the students will observe that and absorb that learning visually," Hamlin said.

Also this as well:
Hamlin said he understands that the school district is only following state law so he's met with the American Civil Liberties Union and, if necessary, plans on fighting the constitutionality of the law.

Dave

[Edited 2006-08-26 03:20:57]
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BAxMAN
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
You see, most of us who do read and who do think are painfully aware that there are many ill-considered laws on the books. We also understand that changing them is a better tactic than simply violating them.

This teacher's disrespect to an absurd law is an effective way of getting this specific law repealed. Whilst I have no doubt that the teacher did not set out to be some kind of renegade, he has probably achieved that by default. If the Colorado/Jefferson County legislators (or whomever is repsonsible for this birdbrain law) don't act following following this unwelcome publiclity - whether by clarifying the law or simply scrapping it - then no other type of action will rid the statute books of it.

You're quite right in saying that public servants should not decide which laws to obey and which laws they should disregard. But at the same time, we should also expect our decision makers to be held to account and sometimes this only possible by non-conformist actions by their subordinates. It is perfectly reasonable to expect a teacher to highlight such a ridiculous piece of legislation and demand a proper, rational explanation from the principal.
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DETA737
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:22 am

Wow how bizarre. I grew up in Connecticut and I remember my highschool auditorium had the flags of around 10 different foreign countries hanging. My French class had a French flag and in 5th grade my teach had a Soviet flag on her desk she had bought it because that year (1991) the USSR went under and she said she thought it was a neat relic to have.
 
mdsh00
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 39):
I guess so, the class room especially a geography class is not the place for politics. But lets say the teacher decided to put up a Israeli flag beside the US flag in the classroom.? And then openly discussed how muslims are trying to kill all the jews. Would this be OK ?

Of course not. But who said he was putting it up there for political reasons? I bet you he didn't even know about the rule since it never came up in his previous school.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
AGM100
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 43):
I bet you he didn't even know about the rule since it never came up in his previous school.

It is quite possible that he did not know the rule , If he did not then consideration should have been taken. IMO suspending the teacher is drastic , unless he knew the rules and violated them any way. It really comes down to the reason for using the flags in the first place.

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 41):
It is perfectly reasonable to expect a teacher to highlight such a ridiculous piece of legislation and demand a proper, rational explanation from the principal.

Highlight is correct , violating is another. I dont have a problem with flags being used in the classroom , but nowadays everyone has agenda. Consideration for the country you live is part of citizenship , or is this to be torn down and trampled on to. ?
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halls120
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):
My sixth grade classroom teacher always had her classroom filled with the flags of the world's nations. There must have been a hundred of them. No one ever complained.

When you walk into the main lobby in the State Department in DC, there is a flag flying for every nation in the world we recognize.

Maybe someone should arrest Condi Rice for this blasphemy.  Wink

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
The school had pre-existing rules prohibiting "permanent" display of non-US flags. The principal visited the classroom, saw these flags displayed, enquired about upcoming curriculum, found there was no specific reason to be displaying them and asked that the be removed. Display not tied to a specific timeframe such as a syllabus segment, begins to look pretty "permanent" to the principal. The teacher refused. That was and is considered "insubordination" which is a punishable offense almost everywhere in the world.

Violation of a stupid rule shouldn't result in dismissal. That said, if the teacher did in fact refuse to take them down, that was just as stupid the the rule banning their display in the first place.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 27):
If you also read a majority of these posts you'd see that people are criticizing the stupidity of the law and the principle behind it. As well as the inconsistency in enforcing it as the teacher was never told to take them down in his previous job.

What he was or was not told in his previous job is irrelevant. He was told to take them down. He should have done so. Even though it really was a stupid policy and decision.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 28):
And those of us that are familiar with labor law/contracts, especially as it applies to education, can recognize when something is out of whack. If the principal and teacher didn't agree on whether the flags applied to the curriculum, then there are plenty of steps prior to suspension. The fact that it hadn't been enforced prior to this also implies something amiss. Bottom line, suspending the teacher because he didn't take down the flags is an over reaction.

Here's what I'll bet went down. Principal sees flags, asks teacher what's up. Teacher didn't like Principal dictating what he could and could not do, and gives a smart ass response to principal. Principal, his authority being challenged, demands the flags be taken down immediately. Teacher, his testosterone up, says no, and principal, now angry, shows teacher who is boss

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 38):
What earthly good did his little demonstration do? Do his students know more about geography now because he selected two out of about two hundred national flags to display? Here is something useful - ALL OF THEM can be seen on the internet.

What teacher SHOULD have done is put up a display of flags representing the country of origin of every student in his class. That would be pretty relevant to a 7th grade geography class, I think.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
searpqx
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 45):
Here's what I'll bet went down. Principal sees flags, asks teacher what's up. Teacher didn't like Principal dictating what he could and could not do, and gives a smart ass response to principal. Principal, his authority being challenged, demands the flags be taken down immediately. Teacher, his testosterone up, says no, and principal, now angry, shows teacher who is boss

Probably pretty close. I still think there's something, some motivation, on one side or the other, that we haven't heard about. I don't know the contract language in this case, but in every district I've ever worked with, the principal moving this fast to suspension, over a curriculum related matter, would have landed himself in hot water.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
PerthGloryFan
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:46 pm

Easter 2002, my wife is visiting friends in Lake City, Florida.
Friend's 6 yo grandson takes Mrs PGF along to his nursery school as his "show and tell". Lady with a peculiar accent from a far away place with strange animals is sure to be a hit!

Mrs PGF arrives early and with 6yo's help sets up a display that includes toy kanagroos, koalas, the Australian flag, books and then proceeds to entertain the class with stories about the Easter Bilby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilby (rabbits not being native to Australia) distributing Easter eggs to kids. Everyone has a great time and the teacher and principal are very grateful and appreciative of Mrs PGF's time and the things she leaves for the school.

Except ... the principal is very sorry, but the flag cannot be displayed in the class ....

At the time we just thought, "Well it is Florida ... "

PGF
 
SlamClick
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RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:08 pm

So here is the latest word to me on this subject:

History for SlamClick

trekster 2006-08-26 09:54:47
Um getting sacked and being told never
to work as a sunday school teacher
sorta implies BANNING. And shut up u
ass


Thank you, it is always nice to know what sort of person disagrees with you.
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halls120
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Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: CO Teacher On Leave For Showing Foreign Flag

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 48):
Thank you, it is always nice to know what sort of person disagrees with you.

At least you got your "marching orders" as an IM. On another thread, I was summarily told "shut up, slave" by a frequent Anet poster.  biggrin 

It is always amazing what some people will resort to when they've run out of substantive things to say.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography

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