AerospaceFan
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Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:26 am

I often hear liberals and other leftists talk about how great progressivism is. I'm interested in some examples of progressive countries where standards of living are high, the threat of terrorism is low, and the prospects for the future are bright.

Thanks in advance for your considered answers.
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Avianca
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:33 am

Switzerland for example
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AirCop
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:03 am

Finland for another.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:23 am

Do either of those countries exhibit the same kind of future prospects as more conservative countries, though? Demographically, I mean.
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cfalk
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 1):
Switzerland for example

Switzerland is NOT that progressive. Very small federal government. Mandatory military service. 100% private health care. It's a conservative country that works pretty well.
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AirCop
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
Do either of those countries exhibit the same kind of future prospects as more conservative countries, though?

You'll have to better explaining what you what. Some conservative countries like Iran would have different future prospects than lets say Singapore.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 5):
You'll have to better explaining what you what. Some conservative countries like Iran would have different future prospects than lets say Singapore.

What I meant was that liberal countries tend to have demographic issues, as noted in the "Demographically, I mean" sentence right after the one you excerpted.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I'm interested in some examples of progressive countries where standards of living are high, the threat of terrorism is low

I'd be interested in a list of what you consider "conservative countries" and what defines them that way. You'd get a better response, as AirCop accurately predicts, rather than just letting everyone define for themselves what "progressive" might be.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
I'd be interested in a list of what you consider "conservative countries" and what defines them that way.

I think that the U.S. is a conservative country, as is Japan.

Ironically, Japan is not a particularly good example, because it has a severe demographic problem of its own. However, I would consider it conservative due to its emphasis on conformity.

The Netherlands and France are liberal countries when compared to the United States. Both of them, however, seem to be experiencing problems with social peace and there are fears of radicalism that may lead to terrorism. (Van Gogh, in the case of the Netherlands, and social unrest and riots, in the case of France.)
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AeroWesty
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:53 am

So if I get this right, your question isn't about "progressive" politics, but "progressive immigration" policies?

As I read somewhere once about the Dutch, they used to view their immigration policy as "we once were there, now they're here".
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
So if I get this right, your question isn't about "progressive" politics, but "progressive immigration" policies?

Progressive countries tend to have liberal immigration countries, but that's not the only issue.

They also have policies that tend to discourage the formation of a traditional family, which leads to demographic decline.

It has been recently found, for example, that even in the United States, conservative families have significantly more children than liberal ones. (See, e.g., http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1386013.html.)

[Edited 2006-08-25 03:01:00]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
They also have policies that tend to discourage the formation of a traditional family, which leads to demographic decline.

"Conservative" states have a higher divorce rate, too. One could say that leads to the breakdown of a traditional family. I doubt you can use the birthrate as an indicator.

How about that list?
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:02 am

Regarding demographic and economic prospects for Switzerland, please see, e.g.:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...=aQhxqVQQa9fM&refer=columnist_lynn
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
"Conservative" states have a higher divorce rate, too. One could say that leads to the breakdown of a traditional family. I doubt you can use the birthrate as an indicator.

Regardless, it is the sheer number of warm bodies that counts, not whether those bodies are married or single at any given time. In fact, if divorced individuals remarry, as they often do, then an entirely new family might be formed that would tend to add to demographic growth.

The problem with Switzerland, for example, is that people, married or not, are having fewer children. They are also growing older, retiring on expensive and decreasingly funded retirement formulas, and becoming a net drain on economic growth. Please see the Bloomberg article I cited.

There may or may not be a causal relationship between progressivism and lack of national fertility, but, nevertheless, the correlation appears to exist.

[Edited 2006-08-25 03:07:01]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 13):
There may or may not be a causal relationship between progressivism and lack of national fertility, but, nevertheless, the correlation appears to exist.

Well if we can't have a list, then this will bore me, so I'll pass.
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Derico
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:18 am

The US doesn't have a demographic problem because of all the immigration. Without it, it would be in a near similar situation as some european countries, a bit less than Italy and Japan.

That's not such a bad thing, as US birth rates during the 19th century and large part of the 20th were astronomically high, like Brazil and Mexico later on and until recently Peru and Colombia. I've met so many people from other countries in this hemisphere that have 6 or 7 siblings. In Argentina which for whatever reasons has always had very stable and responsible birth rates, that is unheard of (virtually all of Argentina's population growth since the 19th century till today has been immigration, and still is).
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andessmf
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
Well if we can't have a list, then this will bore me, so I'll pass.

Let me help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpopulation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html
 
Springbok747
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I'm interested in some examples of progressive countries where standards of living are high, the threat of terrorism is low, and the prospects for the future are bright.

I don't think you can find an ideal country like that. Every place has its own problems, but some are more screwed up than others. So I guess the question you should be asking is: 'Which is the least screwed up place on Earth?'

I'd have to say Sweden, or Finland. New Zealand also seems like a happy place.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Let me help.

I was looking for a list of "conservative countries" as defined by the OP to provide some counterpoint, since birth rates and marriage stability didn't seem to work as an argument. Alabama vs. Massachusetts, for example, within our own borders.
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squared
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
The US doesn't have a demographic problem because of all the immigration. Without it, it would be in a near similar situation as some european countries, a bit less than Italy and Japan.

Not totally true. The fertility rate in the US is enough to sustain the population. ~2.1 children per woman. Immigration accounts for the growth in the US population. But the fertility in the USA is markedly higher than Italy and Japan, which are only around 1.3 and 1.4 children per woman respectively. The population of these countries will shrink if no immigration is permitted. The US would not be in the same situation as Italy or Japan.

Other so-called progressive nations, also appear to have lower fertility rates. Canada, Germany and France all have lower fertility rates than the US.

SQuared
 
cfalk
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Let me help.

I was looking for a list of "conservative countries" as defined by the OP to provide some counterpoint, since birth rates and marriage stability didn't seem to work as an argument. Alabama vs. Massachusetts, for example, within our own borders.

It's a subjective measure, and you know that perfectly well. So stop trying to be a nitpicker and try to contribute to the discussion, or stay out of it.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
It's a subjective measure, and you know that perfectly well.

And as a counterpoint, it's perfectly acceptable to ask the original poster where his center lies.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
So stop trying to be a nitpicker and try to contribute to the discussion, or stay out of it.

Don't like it? Skip over it or suggest delete.
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andessmf
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
It's a subjective measure, and you know that perfectly well.

And as a counterpoint, it's perfectly acceptable to ask the original poster where his center lies.

I dont think its subjective and it seems pretty clear that the more 'conservative' the area is, the higher the birth rate. I am not certain of my reasoning, but I could assume that the higher marriage rate can also contribute to a higher divorce rate, as those two seem to be related.

Quoting SQuared (Reply 19):
The population of these countries will shrink if no immigration is permitted. The US would not be in the same situation as Italy or Japan.

Japan passed the mark where officially their population is now decreasing, with the attendant economic problems that will occur because of it. There are also areas in the US where you have a decrease of the population, Bay Area comes to mind, where due to the lack of children, schools are having to close.
 
cfalk
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
I dont think its subjective and it seems pretty clear that the more 'conservative' the area is, the higher the birth rate.

Like I said, Switzerland is very conservative and has a low birth rate. Other factors are involved, such as the religion of the people (eg. Catholics tend to have more children than Protestants), or the poverty level.
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andessmf
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
Switzerland is very conservative and has a low birth rate

From my understanding from two family members that live in Switzerland, the Swiss dont seem to encourage marriage. What is your take on that?
 
VHVXB
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
Japan passed the mark where officially their population is now decreasing, with the attendant economic problems that will occur because of it

Don't they have economic problems already?
 
andessmf
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 25):

Don't they have economic problems already?

Yes, and underpopulation cant help them to dig out of the hole they are in.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
Progressive countries tend to have liberal immigration countries, but that's not the only issue.

Therfore, the United States is historically the most liberal country on the planet.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I'm interested in some examples of progressive countries where standards of living are high, the threat of terrorism is low, and the prospects for the future are bright.

The USA.
 
andessmf
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:46 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 27):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
Progressive countries tend to have liberal immigration countries, but that's not the only issue.

Therfore, the United States is historically the most liberal country on the planet.

Incredibly good answer.

I think the progressive country shall be defined according to the degree of social welfare benefits provided. How's that definition?
 
Doona
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:48 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):

They also have policies that tend to discourage the formation of a traditional family, which leads to demographic decline.

Like what exactly? I can't say that Swedes are discouraged to start a family, apart from when the christian right and other conservative sycophants on both sides of the political spectrum tell me that I can't get married or adopt a baby. So it's actually conservatives that don't wan't me to start a family. Beat that with a stick.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 27):

The USA.

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QANTASforever
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:53 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
leftists

First, I object to that term. It's the obverse of "rightist", and both come across as derogatory. By all means have a discussion about what countries with different or more "liberal" ideologies do, but there's no need to set a combative tone from the get-go.

QFF
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sebolino
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:38 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
I dont think its subjective and it seems pretty clear that the more 'conservative' the area is, the higher the birth rate.

France has one of the highest birth rate in "Old europe" as far as I know. So France is one of the most "conservative" country ?
 
andessmf
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 31):
France has one of the highest birth rate in "Old europe" as far as I know. So France is one of the most "conservative" country ?

France's birth rate is still below replacement level.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
I think the progressive country shall be defined according to the degree of social welfare benefits provided. How's that definition?

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html
 
cfalk
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RE: Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries

Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 24):
From my understanding from two family members that live in Switzerland, the Swiss dont seem to encourage marriage. What is your take on that?

I would think it depends on the area of Switzerland. Geneva is protestant and very liberal, and marriage is not all that popular. Immigration provides most of the population growth to the point that around half the population is foreign-born.

Go to the old Catholic cantons like Glarus or Nidwald, you find a very different culture, more traditional in their values.

Remember that Switzerland has an unusually wide diversity of culture for such a small country. People's attitude, the architecture of the buildings, etc. are almost unrecognizable from each other if you travel just 50 or 100 miles.
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