tbar220
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"What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:58 am

What Terrorists Want

...

I'd like everyone to take a deep breath and listen for a minute.

The point of terrorism is to cause terror, sometimes to further a political goal and sometimes out of sheer hatred. The people terrorists kill are not the targets; they are collateral damage. And blowing up planes, trains, markets or buses is not the goal; those are just tactics. The real targets of terrorism are the rest of us: the billions of us who are not killed but are terrorized because of the killing. The real point of terrorism is not the act itself, but our reaction to the act.

And we're doing exactly what the terrorists want. [...]

Imagine for a moment that the British government arrested the 23 suspects without fanfare. Imagine that the TSA and its European counterparts didn't engage in pointless airline-security measures like banning liquids. And imagine that the press didn't write about it endlessly, and that the politicians didn't use the event to remind us all how scared we should be. If we'd reacted that way, then the terrorists would have truly failed.

It's time we calm down and fight terror with antiterror. This does not mean that we simply roll over and accept terrorism. There are things our government can and should do to fight terrorism, most of them involving intelligence and investigation---and not focusing on specific plots. [...]

The surest defense against terrorism is to refuse to be terrorized. Our job is to recognize that terrorism is just one of the risks we face, and not a particularly common one at that. And our job is to fight those politicians who use fear as an excuse to take away our liberties and promote "security theater" that wastes money and doesn't make us any safer.


***

Man, this article is spot on IMO. Read the full article at:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/what_the_terror.html

Your thoughts?
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Mir
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
Imagine that the TSA and its European counterparts didn't engage in pointless airline-security measures like banning liquids. And imagine that the press didn't write about it endlessly, and that the politicians didn't use the event to remind us all how scared we should be. If we'd reacted that way, then the terrorists would have truly failed.

I agree with everything here except the first part. Banning liquids was a temporary necessity (operative word being temporary) in order to make sure that the planned attack did not take place. Denying terrorists emotional victories is important, but not when doing so has a significant probability of allowing them a physical one.

The problem is that the press naturally hooks onto those things, and they love to milk them for all that they're worth so that they can get better ratings. And politicans have no choice but to sound off on current events - granted, some went way too far in trying to use the attempted attacks for their own personal gain, but then again - since when have politicians not been slimy?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
andessmf
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
There are things our government can and should do to fight terrorism, most of them involving intelligence and investigation---and not focusing on specific plots.

Specifically how? It is one thing to call for more intelligence (Iraq WMDs, anyone?) and actually proposing tangible steps to take. This guy is using the same tactics that other use, under a different guise. He is talking w/o showing any tangible and realistic actions that people should take. And this not focusing on specific plots, its just crazy. Investigations and convictions are done on specific issues, not hints that 'something' was up.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):

The surest defense against terrorism is to refuse to be terrorized.

Damn those idiot New Yorkers that were scared and terrified when the towers came down. Didnt they know that's what the terrorists wanted?  sarcastic 
 
Bobster2
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
And our job is to fight those politicians

I dislike Bush as much as anybody, but I also recognize that this article allegedly about terrorism is thinly disguised Bush bashing and he adds the overt Bush bashing at the end for the ones who didn't figure it out for themselves.

Just because you hate Bush doesn't give you the right to spread bullshit about liquid explosives not being a real threat. Since one of the terror cells got caught, that means all the other terror cells are not a threat and we should stop defending against them. Bullshit.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
tbar220
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Denying terrorists emotional victories is important, but not when doing so has a significant probability of allowing them a physical one.

Perhaps terrorism is just something we have to live with. Honestly, apart from 9/11, how many Americans have died from terrorist attacks? Why are so many of us so scared, and why is our government's response to prey off those fears?

I will take the chance that I may be killed by a terrorist when I go on a plane. At least let me bring my bottle of water on board, or even keep my chapstick in my pocket.

Andres,

We need more traditional police and intelligence work to find terrorists. We need to get the FBI, CIA, and NSA more coordinated in their intelligence efforts. Rather than the military solution that we've been so intent on using in the "war on terror", good ol' fashioned police work would work better. It worked in Europe and Israel for decades.

Instead, we run around RE-acting to every "threat" and acting like a scared dog between our legs. I'd rather we have more proactive international police work that can get the terrorists before they attack us. And even if they do, not to run and hide, not to change our lifestyle.

Didn't Bush say after 9/11 that the terrorists want us to change our way of life, and if we do they win? Well lets see, now we torture, now we infringe on civil liberties, now we capitalize on fear. All that seems to matter to people is terrorism.

Remember...

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
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Mir
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 4):
Perhaps terrorism is just something we have to live with.

I hear you. But I would find it hard to justify letting large numbers of people die (or even small numbers of people die) just so that people wouldn't be afraid - they'd be afraid if the attack was successful anyway. I do not like overbearing security - it makes life a pain in the ass. But it is sometimes necessary for short periods of time - it would be necessary for much longer periods of time if various intelligence services weren't doing their job as well as they are (in spite of all the flaws in the system).

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 4):
why is our government's response to prey off those fears?

This I can't give a reasonable answer for.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
agill
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:39 am

we accept thousands upon thousands of killed in traffic every year, we'll get used to terrorism.
 
Bobster2
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 4):
Remember...
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Remember...
Roosevelt said that in 1933. By 1942 he lost his fear of fear. What prompted him to authorize the Japanese-American internment. Do you think maybe it was fear?
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
andessmf
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 4):
Perhaps terrorism is just something we have to live with



Quoting Agill (Reply 6):
we accept thousands upon thousands of killed in traffic every year, we'll get used to terrorism.

OK, just to use this analogy. Is car safety used by manufacturers to sell their cars? Has there been any improvements in cars and car related laws in the last decades to attempt to minimize the death toll?

Answer the questions and tell me, have we learned to accept car fatalities or are there constant improvements to minimize them? Has there been plenty of government intervention to maximize car safety?

So yes, perhaps it will be a good thing (no sarcasm intended) for us to accept terrorism as we accept car fatalities.
 
FMAL
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 4):

Congratulation on a very good post. You put forward your opinions with no aggresion and say that the other side is wrong. Difference of opinion is another thing we have to live with. I share your opinions.

I do not accept a police state that tells me I'm safer, in exchange for pesonal liberties. Once you give away certain liberties that either took you centuries to accomplish, or was born with your country, you open a dangerous precedent and there is no telling where it stops.

People who have never lived under a dictatorship may not realize this. But people who has do.

Please, I am not saying that Bush or anybody else intends to install a dictatorship in the US, that's not my point. I'm merely using an argument here to base my actual point.
 
ltbewr
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:57 am

Terrorists also want power and control of their world over those that do. They want revenge against or to extort those who that they believe or have convinced themelves to blame and act violently for their situation. Modern technology and tacticts makes it easier for a tiny number of people to war against millions.
As others suggest, sometimes they cause more fear and overreaction, but it is easy to for politicans to overreact. Someone made the note about FDR putting Japanase nationals and Americans of Japanese decent or birth into interment camps during WWII. That was a political overreaction to the fears of the public in the western USA 99% of which didn't understand their culture. The problem today is to deal with the political reality of such fears and not go overboard in reaction.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
The surest defense against terrorism is to refuse to be terrorized

Thats what happened on 7/11 at Mumbai.That one way,the second is to strike their epicentre.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
agill
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):

OK, just to use this analogy. Is car safety used by manufacturers to sell their cars? Has there been any improvements in cars and car related laws in the last decades to attempt to minimize the death toll?

Well we try to keep them as low as possible, but it's not something that scares us. I don't think many motorists are petrified while driving along on the road. Crashes is just something that happened, and we try to mimimize the effects, but we don't stop driving despite the fact that there are a lot of people killed each year.
 
tbar220
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
So yes, perhaps it will be a good thing (no sarcasm intended) for us to accept terrorism as we accept car fatalities.

I absolutely do believe this. The truth is that terrorism really doesn't kill all that many people compared to other stuff. True, 9/11 was a terrible attack, but we can't change our life style for that. I also believe that there's enough nutcases out there that killing some won't change a thing. People will hate us no matter what we do, so why change our democratic ideals to fight a "war on terror".

Europe, Israel, and other parts of the world have been living with terrorism for decades, and have dealt with it accordingly. Its time for us to accept it as well.
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andessmf
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:27 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
So yes, perhaps it will be a good thing (no sarcasm intended) for us to accept terrorism as we accept car fatalities.

I absolutely do believe this

Good, but let's examine this closely.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
The truth is that terrorism really doesn't kill all that many people compared to other stuff.

Neither does second-hand smoking or even aircraft accidents, but we change our ways to cause less death, so the same will be for terrorism. And tell that to the people affected by terrorism, and see what type of response you get.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
I also believe that there's enough nutcases out there that killing some won't change a thing

There's also a bunch of 'nutcases' that become serial murderers, and removing those from circulation won't stop the next one from cropping up, so why bother, right?

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
People will hate us no matter what we do

So if they will hate us anyways, why complain about the effects that fighting them will have? I mean, you say that war or no war, they will hate us anyways.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
Europe, Israel, and other parts of the world have been living with terrorism for decades, and have dealt with it accordingly.

Excellent example, I am 100% up to fighting terrorism the way Israel fights it (I guess you were supportive of the Lebanon invasion?). Hell, lets deal with terrorism the way Egypt and Saudi Arabia deals with it.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:02 pm

The struggle against terrorists and terror organisations should be conducted in a far more discreet way, in fact as discreetly as possible. BECAUSE terrorists are attention-whores of the worst kind possible. To get attention is more than 50% of what they want. There of course also are reasons like revenge (for whatever that may be) and the lust for political power.
 
David L
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
The struggle against terrorists and terror organisations should be conducted in a far more discreet way, in fact as discreetly as possible. BECAUSE terrorists are attention-whores of the worst kind possible. To get attention is more than 50% of what they want.

Absolutely correct but when you have information that "some" flights between the UK and USA are about to be targetted, you can't really keep quiet about it. You have to do whatever you can to stop explosives getting on board and people will notice. Similarly, when a house is raided the neighbours will notice.

I'm sure the security forces keep as much as they can under wraps.
 
gkirk
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:05 pm

2 Big Macs and a Coke please.
Oh, and we also want to destroy the country where these were invented.
Signed, The Terrorists
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
David L
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 17):
2 Big Macs and a Coke please.
Oh, and we also want to destroy the country where these were invented.
Signed, The Terrorists

 checkmark  and that applies to a lot of their sympathisers.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting David L (Reply 16):
The struggle against terrorists and terror organisations should be conducted in a far more discreet way, in fact as discreetly as possible. BECAUSE terrorists are attention-whores of the worst kind possible. To get attention is more than 50% of what they want.
-
Absolutely correct but when you have information that "some" flights between the UK and USA are about to be targetted, you can't really keep quiet about it. You have to do whatever you can to stop explosives getting on board and people will notice. Similarly, when a house is raided the neighbours will notice.

I'm sure the security forces keep as much as they can under wraps.

-
OK, unfortunately true ! Not least as in democratic countries, the press is allowed to have a look into police files.

Quoting David L (Reply 18):
The Terrorists
checkmark and that applies to a lot of their sympathisers.

well, you have the famous thing about anti US demonstrators, in jeans and with US made gym-shoes, drinking a CocaCola and eating a Hamburger before embarking onto the "venture" and after that relaxing in a Starbucks . And then driving home and using a US-made computer to report about everything in the Internet
 
cairo
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
The surest defense against terrorism is to refuse to be terrorized.

Absolutely correct.

Americans especially need to put terrorism into its proper perspective.

Yes, it is a problem. But, terrorism should by no means be the number one national priority and the FEAR of terrorism should not effect government policy or private lives in the way it does today.

September 11 killed 3000 people 5 years ago. Before that there was sporadic terrorism against America numbering in the hundreds of dead. This is nothing to be scared of, as, for instance, Americans kill each other to the tune of 20000 murdered every year - and how many of us run around constantly afraid of murder?

The proper reaction in a free society is to not ignore terrorism, but deal with it in a proper perspective and not let it change our essential liberties or the way we live our lives. We are not afraid of terrorism - or we shouldn't be, as fear only leads to policies and wars which really terrorize ourselves.

Cairo
 
tbar220
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
Excellent example, I am 100% up to fighting terrorism the way Israel fights it (I guess you were supportive of the Lebanon invasion?).

Actually no. I didn't think the invasion and destruction and death was worth it. I don't think it was successful in fighting terrorism. And mostly, it didn't get the two soldiers who were kidnapped their freedom. That however is an entirely different topic of conversation, so I don't want to segway too much into it.
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baroque
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
It's time we calm down and fight terror with antiterror. This does not mean that we simply roll over and accept terrorism. There are things our government can and should do to fight terrorism, most of them involving intelligence and investigation---and not focusing on specific plots. [...]

Great starter Tbar, it is not rocket science and has been said before, but definitely needs to be said again and again.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 4):
Perhaps terrorism is just something we have to live with. Honestly, apart from 9/11, how many Americans have died from terrorist attacks? Why are so many of us so scared, and why is our government's response to prey off those fears?

Easy answer there, just look at Bush, Blair and Howard, all have used terrorism and xenophobia to get re-elected. It is deplorable, I can see ways to stop terrorism more easily than to stop our own politicians using effectively near-criminal methods to get elected. I mean if you went round a football grouns shouting fire to cause a stampede, you would get arrested. Overplaying terrorism is not much different, I mean there ARE fires at football grounds.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
well, you have the famous thing about anti US demonstrators, in jeans and with US made gym-shoes, drinking a CocaCola and eating a Hamburger before embarking onto the "venture" and after that relaxing in a Starbucks . And then driving home and using a US-made computer to report about everything in the Internet

All of that is true MAF, but you just need to learn to get over it. On the other side, how about the Saudis watching the news and seeing the bombs made with resources based on THEIR oil, dropping on Lebanon. Do you think they were happy about that?

It is interesting to see the balance of reactions, most in favour, but complaints about Bush bashing. Presumably, this means any suggestion that a Bush policy is not the best one is Bush bashing. Well I can live with that, as do the majority of Americans it seems. Now all we need to do is to convince Americans that among Bush policies, the ones on terrorism are amongst the worst.

I have recalled in an earlier thread that late in WWII, when Speer for some reason known only to him, threatened to launch V weapons from U-boats at NY, the UK Admiralty sent a telegram to the US. The telegram stated that V2s could not be launched from U-boats and that it is was technically possible, but very difficult to launch a V1. However, the Admiralty pointed out the chance of a V1 hitting anything were small and even if they did the damage would also be small. The US went berserk with reactions totally out of proportion to the threat. Effectively Speer won without even seriously trying to mount the attack.

So it is with OBL now - how many billions is the US spending? Is it putting into effect the various treaties designed to reduce the numbers of nuclear warheads - by and large NO. It is even pressing ahead with new N-weapons programs, which will generate competing N-weapons programs, at least in China. Why the concentration on measures that can only be partially effective and leave unchanged (or make worse) the source of the biggest fear?
 
andessmf
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 21):

OK, so this is what you said:

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 13):
Europe, Israel, and other parts of the world have been living with terrorism for decades, and have dealt with it accordingly

So now, you used Israel as an example for how to deal with terrorism, but disagree on the implementation. Those are mutually exclusive.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
The US went berserk with reactions totally out of proportion to the threat

So the world and the US havent changed their mentality for decades. Not news to me.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Effectively Speer won without even seriously trying to mount the attack.

Speer would tell you he won the battle but lost the war. So Speer lost.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Is it putting into effect the various treaties designed to reduce the numbers of nuclear warheads - by and large NO

How is that even terrorism related? The reduction of nuclear warheads deals have been around decades, and bringing this up now is not germane to the conversation.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 20):
Yes, it is a problem. But, terrorism should by no means be the number one national priority and the FEAR of terrorism should not effect government policy or private lives in the way it does today.

Sure it should not be, but the fact is that it is a problem, and if people didnt have fear of terrorism air travel would not have suffered so much after 9/11.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 20):
September 11 killed 3000 people 5 years ago. Before that there was sporadic terrorism against America numbering in the hundreds of dead. This is nothing to be scared of, as, for instance, Americans kill each other to the tune of 20000 murdered every year - and how many of us run around constantly afraid of murder?

Air and auto crashes do not cause that many deaths either, but how many here base their decisions on airplane travel and car purchases on some safety factors? Yes, there are plenty of murders that occur in the US yearly, but how much money and manpower are spent fighting it every year? You say we can learn to live with terrorism, citing murders as examples, which to me means exactly what it should mean. Fight terrorism just like you fight murders, find and prosecute the offenders, and that is not too different than what is going on now.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
how about the Saudis watching the news and seeing the bombs made with resources based on THEIR oil, dropping on Lebanon. Do you think they were happy about that?

it is known that they, just like most people in the Arab World were shocked and angry, not least as much of that Israeli terror- and intimidation-campaign was also a demonstration of strength against a rather helpless Arab World

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
any suggestion that a Bush policy is not the best one is Bush bashing

of course ! how can we doubt the ultimate wisdom of that most honourable president ?  sarcastic  scared  scratchchin  shhh 
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:10 pm

according to the BBC, the Turk from Bremen got released:
---
A German-born Turkish national has been released from US custody at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba where he has been held since 2002, US officials say. Murat Kurnaz was handed over to German officials after being flown to the Ramstein air base in Germany. His lawyer says he has already been reunited with his family. Mr Kurnaz was held in Pakistan in 2001 and then accused by the US of being an al-Qaeda member. But a US review board later said the claims were unfounded. Mr Kurnaz, who was born in the northern German city of Bremen, had denied the claims, saying he went to Pakistan to study Islam. His release follows lengthy negotiations between the German government and the US officials, correspondents say.
-> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5285226.stm
-
amazing is that it took years until "a US review board said the claims were unfounded", and that in spite of this, the German government had to "negotiate" his release
-
 
baroque
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 25):
amazing is that it took years until "a US review board said the claims were unfounded", and that in spite of this, the German government had to "negotiate" his release

May be amazing, but we heard the good news today that Hicks will not be executed. And the new US ambassador assured us (how dumb does he think we are - OK don't answer that!) that Hicks would get more protection of his rights than any other person going before a military commission. Ah yes, did they shoot the others before or after they heard the case. Would someone hit Alberto G on the head with Alice in Wonderland - obviously there is no hope he will read it!

Just a pity MAF that your Pres is not as funny as your row of smilies! Still trying to find what the last one says. Mind the jokes about him are quite good. So that is something as they say!

I do think that in 50 years, the historians will think most of his policies stink, but that the terrorist ones are the worst, whereas that it the only set of policies that get him some popularity. Fear works as they say. But why? Everybody (even Alberto G) knows the story of the lad who cried wolf. And we had the cold war bogies for long enough.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:02 am

It's a great thought and he's absolutely right. But it will never work with todays society. Especially here in the US with the "the sky is falling!" mentality. Americans are much different than they were in say the 1940's. When Pearl Harbor happened, the call to fight back was incredible. When 9/11 happened, the call to fight back was also incredible, just not by the ones who were willing to do the actual fighting.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
tbar220
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 23):
So now, you used Israel as an example for how to deal with terrorism, but disagree on the implementation. Those are mutually exclusive.

Let me clarify. The way Israel fought terrorism in the last fifty years was IMO successful. It was the combined police work, special forces, and intelligence that was able to succesfully fight terrorism and its networks (i.e. Black September, the PLO, Entebbe, etc.) Instead, now they're using massive military strength which clearly didn't achieve anything in the recent campaign in Lebanon, and has had questionable results in the Palestinian Territories (over 1000 Israeli dead over five years isn't much of a success).

Lets go back to the ways of good old fashioned intelligence and police work to fight terrorists. At the same time, protect the civil liberties and freedoms of the very people our government claims to be protecting. Its no good if we fight terrorists and destroy our democratic principles at home.

Massive military responses and fear mongering scare tactics serve right into the hands of Osama Bin Laden. He couldn't have asked for a better response to 9/11 and other terrorist attacks with the way the United States has been acting. Remember how the Soviet Union reacted to Afghanistan? They horribly lost the war there. And remember who led the fight against them in the 80's? That's right, good ol' Osama.
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andessmf
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
Lets go back to the ways of good old fashioned intelligence and police work to fight terrorists.

How long has Israel used targetted assassinations for?

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
Massive military responses and fear mongering scare tactics serve right into the hands of Osama Bin Laden. He couldn't have asked for a better response to 9/11 and other terrorist attacks with the way the United States has been acting

His previous attacks had received almost no response and his answer was 9/11. So ignoring him didn't work.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
Remember how the Soviet Union reacted to Afghanistan? They horribly lost the war there. And remember who led the fight against them in the 80's? That's right, good ol' Osama.

And the US had nothing to do with that, right?  sarcastic 
OBL had plenty of support from others, and w/o that support, he would have accomplished nothing.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:27 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
the PLO

the PLO has not been and is NOT a "terrorism network" but the umbrella organisation of most Palestinian political organisations (except Hamas + Islamic Jihad) including both resistance-organisations and professional organisations and student organisations (like GUPS of elFatah).
 
baroque
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
Massive military responses and fear mongering scare tactics serve right into the hands of Osama Bin Laden. He couldn't have asked for a better response to 9/11 and other terrorist attacks with the way the United States has been acting. Remember how the Soviet Union reacted to Afghanistan? They horribly lost the war there. And remember who led the fight against them in the 80's? That's right, good ol' Osama.

Yup. What is there more to say?
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
What is there more to say?

Responding to my post? (#29)
 
tbar220
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 29):
His previous attacks had received almost no response and his answer was 9/11. So ignoring him didn't work.

His previous attacks including the Cole attack and the embassy bombings indeed did draw up a plan from Richard Clarke, the anti-terrorism "czar" under both Clinton and Bush. Clinton was too involved with his own scandals, and Bush simply ignored the cries from the FBI, CIA, and Richard Clarke. If you want to go into this, I believe 9/11 could have been prevented and proper action could have been taken against Bin Laden. Clarke and his associates had drawn up plans to act against the Taliban well before 9/11 in an effort to break up Bin Laden's network there. It would have been a valid response to his attacks on the Cole and the two Embassies, which killed hundreds.

Remember again, I'm not saying ignore terrorists. I'm saying, listen to the experts who know how to and have fought successfully against them. Go back to old fashioned intelligence work and police work.
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PPVRA
Posts: 7867
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
Lets go back to the ways of good old fashioned intelligence and police work to fight terrorists. At the same time, protect the civil liberties and freedoms of the very people our government claims to be protecting. Its no good if we fight terrorists and destroy our democratic principles at home.

Police work is only good for containment. It is of little use when you have safe-havens and support from other nations. It may be effective in Europe, but that's because those are domestic only groups.

While I agree that fighting terrorism should not cost freedom, there is no avoiding extensive (and effective) police work from affecting our lives (security lines, searches, and interrogations of suspects, along with profiling issues and what not).

The result of fear is police work. The result of outrage is force. People don't invade other nations out of fear.

[Edited 2006-08-31 19:09:14]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
The result of fear is police work

No, constitutions, laws and police-work are NOT the result of fear, but the desire to protect the citizens and NOT to have a state of force everywhere.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
The real targets of terrorism are the rest of us:

 redflag The hard targets of 9/11 were the WTC as well as the Pentagon and the White House. Hitting those targets it was thought would severely harm to the economy. In part they were right.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
Imagine that the TSA and its European counterparts didn't engage in pointless airline-security measures like banning liquids.

Like not banning utility knives...... boggled 

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
There are things our government can and should do to fight terrorism, most of them involving intelligence and investigation---

Or singling out those that most fit the profile of a suicide bomber and concentrating inspection efforts on them, instead of mom and the 3 kids or grandma.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 4):
We need to get the FBI, CIA, and NSA more coordinated in their intelligence efforts.

Damn that lousy Church commission, and how about that doggone Patriot Act!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
The struggle against terrorists and terror organisations should be conducted in a far more discreet way, in fact as discreetly as possible

I disagree, I want their results brought out in the open. A secret police is not the way to go. That is a direct road to a dictatorship.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
I can see ways to stop terrorism more easily than to stop our own politicians using effectively near-criminal methods to get elected.

So you would take away a persons freedom to run on the issues they find most important to them? The terrorists can only hope to take away our freedoms, you advocate legally banning them?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Effectively Speer won without even seriously trying to mount the attack.

The phrase "phyric victory" jumps into my mind.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 27):
just not by the ones who were willing to do the actual fighting.

FDR and Truman as well as their War Secretaries actually went out and fought the Japanese and Germans? Where can I find that history?

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
Remember how the Soviet Union reacted to Afghanistan?

I remember the Soviet Union attacked and invaded Afghanistan without provocation.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
the PLO has not been and is NOT a "terrorism network"

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

http://www.washburn.edu/cas/history/...0s_files/frame.html#slide0004.html

http://www.washburn.edu/cas/history/...0s_files/frame.html#slide0004.html

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
Clarke and his associates had drawn up plans to act against the Taliban well before 9/11 in an effort to break up Bin Laden's network there.

True, and the plan was cancelled after children were thought to be in the same camp as Bin Laden. The thought that they might be killed or wounded in any gun battle that erupted was abhorent. Cancelled by the Clinton administration BTW.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
Police work is only good for containment. It is of little use when you have safe-havens and support from other nations.

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Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
andessmf
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 36):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
The struggle against terrorists and terror organisations should be conducted in a far more discreet way, in fact as discreetly as possible

I disagree, I want their results brought out in the open. A secret police is not the way to go. That is a direct road to a dictatorship.

Hezbollah successfully used the news media as their propaganda arm. This is where I see some requirement for 'secrecy', to avoid this from occurring again.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 36):
the PLO has not been and is NOT a "terrorism network"

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

http://www.washburn.edu/cas/history/...0s_files/frame.html#slide0004.html

http://www.washburn.edu/cas/history/....html

-
the articles were completely wrong as the PLO never had any guerilleros of itself. So-called "PLO-....." were always people of one of its member-organisations. It was and is the association of most Palestinian organisations. Therefore, Yassir Arafat for ages was both the chief of el-Fatah and due to the power of el-Fatah president of the PLO and consequently president of the PA. Those active there in Jordan were el-Fatah, PFLP and PDFLP , members of the PLO . Terrorism was a "method" but never the aim.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 38):
Terrorism was a "method" but never the aim.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:31 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 39):
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Yes, the aim was and is to establish an independent Palestine in the WestBank, Gaza and EastJerusalem -- there between the various Palestinian organisations are differences in regard to the methods by which this can be reached
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7867
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: "What Terrorists Want"

Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
The result of fear is police work

No, constitutions, laws and police-work are NOT the result of fear, but the desire to protect the citizens and NOT to have a state of force everywhere.

The point of constitutions are to limit power, and they exist because people know what the lack of such limitations mean. Plenty of historical evidence to prove that. The source of police protection is most definately NOT the governments "desire" or "good will" to protect the people- we make them protect us (or we fire them).

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"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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