Falcon84
Topic Author
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Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:21 am

Irregardless of what kind of compromises are made, regarding the West Bank, Jeruselem, the Golan Heights here's a simple question for whatever side you fall on:

With regards to Israel and a proposed Palestine: should one or both exist?

As far as I'm concerned, they both should. Israel should because it has been an established and recognized state now for going on 60 years now, and it would be ignoring reality to ask them to suddenly not exist.

And it's obvious to me that the Palestinians deserve and should have a homeland of their own that can live in peace and prosperity next to Israel.

Both can and should exist. It's a matter of indefatigable perseverence that will make it happen.

What say you?
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tu204
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
What say you?

I agree. I do think that it WAS wrong to "create" Israel 60 years ago, but whats done is done. You cannot relocate millions of people and stop a state from excisting.
I also see no reason not to grant Palestine FULL INDEPENDENCE of their territories. Israel has no real control over them anyways other than the daily airstrike or two.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
SlamClick
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Irregardless

Irregardless?
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777236ER
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
Irregardless?

That would be 'regarding' then?

Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.
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LO231
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
after the worst war in human history.

I don't think you can call any war "worst in history"....
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777236ER
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting LO231 (Reply 4):
I don't think you can call any war "worst in history"....

Considering it spanned the globe, saw the use of nuclear weapons, genocide, mass murder, carpet bombing, the use of long range missiles, the development of jet engines, changed the entire belief and political structure of the world...and resulted in 62 million deaths...I think WWII could legitimately be called the 'worst in history'.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
LY744
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

 thumbsup 


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
SlamClick
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:55 am

What do you suppose the UN will say? After all they long ago ruled that Taiwan doesn't exist. They expelled them in order to entice a nation that hated them to join.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CXA330300
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):

Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

Agreed.

Right of return in Israel is not feasible, Israel would never allow it. Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab world need to follow Jordan's example and allow the Palestinians residents there to integrate into society.
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rjpieces
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:57 pm

Of course I think a Palestinian state should exist. If it meant peace in the Middle East, I'd support giving up pretty much all of East Jerusalem. But I've never been naive enough to believe that the conflict is about land. It has always been and is still about Israel's right to exist as a sovereign Jewish state. There has been ample proof of this over the years (i.e. the numerous occasions in the 20th Century where Israel accepted partition plans but the Arabs rejected) but I think the events of the past year sum it up best.

The European/Arab narrative will tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a conflict that is caused entirely by Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and that if Israel "stops occupying Palestine", there will suddenly be peace in the Middle East. But look at Gaza. Israel made a very tough, country-splitting decision to withdraw from the land they occupied there. Rich American Jews lined up to offer to help the Palestinians build their economy. But what has been the result of the Gaza pullout? Literally thousands of rockets launched into "Israel proper", that is pre-1967 Israel borders capped off by the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. The infrastructure that American Jews invested in--what was supposed to become the foundation of the Palestinian economy--was destroyed within weeks because of the Jewish connection. Does that appear to ANYONE as a peace-loving people recently freed of occupation?

Most Israelis (and American Jews) have long backed the creation of a Palestinian state. The problem is (and I will get flamed for saying this, but oh well) that you can't force the Palestinians to live peacefully next to Israel. It simply can't be done.

The whole world tries to create a state for them while ignoring that it isn't a state that they desire! This is not only counterproductive; it is dangerous for the entire world. The Palestinians know they can get away with brutal terrorism and still count on the UN for refugee status/payments so I really don't expect things to change much in the near future.

It sickens me to think of the far more legitimate conflicts that exist in the world that nobody talks about. If the amount of attention/aid/concern that is directed towards trying to get the Palestinians to build their own country was directed towards certain other groups, the world would be far better off.

Palestinians will never accept peace with Israel because they will lose their main reason for being--fighting Israel. At the end of the day, it is far more difficult to build a state than it is to be a non-state entity fighting another state.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 1):
I also see no reason not to grant Palestine FULL INDEPENDENCE of their territories.

How's Chechnya these days? Hypocrite....

[Edited 2006-08-30 06:01:25]
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
bravo45
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:44 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
If it meant peace in the Middle East, I'd support giving up pretty much all of East Jerusalem.

Oh! How kind of you for such an unbelievably generous offer. Yeah sure
The UN and international law in general implies that no country can annex any land by force or transfer its population to an occupied territory, both of which Israel has no problem doing, and thus in all official UN resolutions, Jerusalem (entire of it) is NOT listed even as 'disputed territory' but 'occupied territory' or is referred to as 'occupied territories including Jerusalem'.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
But look at Gaza. Israel made a very tough,

Well how many times will we have to go over this?? It was NOT disengagement, it was at best an enlargement of a prison still controlled by the Israelis (land border, airspace, ports). Not to mention none of the thousands of prisoners captured in Gaza were released. It was a unilateral move by Israel to draw its own borders and they intend to do the same in the West bank annexing Jerusalem and the most crucial areas of the West Bank that includes all the water resources.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
The problem is (and I will get flamed for saying this, but oh well) that you can't force the Palestinians to live peacefully next to Israel. It simply can't be done.

So you reach this conclusion after getting convinced that overwhelming might is not enough to suppress a people no matter how powerless? Or was this some kind of a joke? And BTW you've been flamed for saying many things before including racist remarks (don't ask me to prove it because they were deleted).

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Palestinians will never accept peace with Israel because they will lose their main reason for being--fighting Israel.

WHAT!!!
The Palestinians including the Jews were living very happily until the terrorist Zionist organisations started to ethnically cleanse them of their properties and then came along Israel doing it on an even broader scale. So it is Israel that will not have anyone to suppress (its recognised trademark) once this conflict is over, the Palestinians have all the things in the world to gain, in fact they have nothing to loose right now.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
If the amount of attention/aid/concern that is directed towards trying to get the Palestinians to build their own country was directed towards certain other groups, the world would be far better off.

If the aid that goes to the two parties in arms and dollars had been equal, this conflict would have been settled a long time ago.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
As far as I'm concerned, they both should. Israel should because it has been an established and recognized state now for going on 60 years now, and it would be ignoring reality to ask them to suddenly not exist.

And it's obvious to me that the Palestinians deserve and should have a homeland of their own that can live in peace and prosperity next to Israel.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Unfortunately, Israelis seem much more interested in expelling the Palestinians from the occupied territories by any means necessary. All the proposed "two-state solutions" have been a complete joke, and with Israel's continuing influx of immigration based on the right of return, I think it's extremely unlikely that any solution that will appease both sides will be reached unless there's a serious change in attitude on the part of the Israelis.

I recently had the opportunity to hear from a graduate student who just returned from the West Bank, and the picture he painted was rather grim. Unrelenting harassment from the IDF at security checkpoints, water and electricity being shut off at the whim of the Israeli government, and increasing encroachment from Jew-only settlements are making life much more difficult for Palestinians, and while I condemn the violent responses to these difficulties, I can't help but be sympathetic to their plight.

Israelis need to realize that their state will not survive if business continues as usual. A mutually acceptable two-state solution is in the best interests of everyone living in the region, and while pessimistic, I'm hopeful that one can be reached before it's too late.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:01 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 8):
Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab world need to follow Jordan's example and allow the Palestinians residents there to integrate into society.

From everything I've heard, Palestinians living in Jordan are treated like shit. People make too much of the fact that Palestinians and Jordanians both happen to be Arabs, as Palestinians think of themselves as Palestinians, not Arabs. The student that I mentioned in the post above discussed this very issue with many Palestinians, and he told me that the overwhelming response to the suggestion that Palestinians integrate into Jordanian society was "fuck the Arabs". Personally, I wouldn't be too happy if some foreign invader took my land and expected me to move to Idaho to integrate simply because Washingtonians and Idahoans are both Americans.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:29 pm

Legally there's no doubt in my mind that Israel is entitled to the land within the 1967 borders and Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon are entitled to the rest.

But there are severe (I'd say insuperable) problems in the economic and political field:-

1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round.There is no peaceable solution to that problem - either Israel holds on to the lion's share by force, as at present, and Palestine goes short; or the other way round.

2. Both states are run on religious, not secular, lines. Israel in particular allows unlimited inward migration for people of the Jewish faith, zilch for most others. Again, 'never the twain shall meet.'

3. That (to my mind absurd) Zionist idea that God promised the whole place to the Jews bedevils the whole field of Israeli politics. Any Israeli prime minister who suggested offering to withdraw to the 1967 borders (especially giving up East Jerusalem) would likely be run out of town on a rail within hours; or lynched.

The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine, and Palestine would benefit by having Israel as a source of jobs and also as a market for its agricultural produce.

The logical answer would be to accept that the whole damn place is too small for two sovereign countries anyway; and set up a federated, multi-religious state with all of Jerusalem as an international zone. All broadly as envisaged by the UN in the first place.

And further to impose strict quotas on immigration and policies to restrict population growth from all sources; while also doing a fair deal with Syria, the Lebanon, and Jordan as regards water.

But none of that is ever going to happen.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):

The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine, and Palestine would benefit by having Israel as a source of jobs and also as a market for its agricultural produce.

Unskilled labor...perhaps because the IDF keeps kids from going to school for months at a time? In any case, it's kind of tough to get to work when Israel wipes out economic infrastructure in the occupied territories and then makes it virtually impossible to work anywhere on the Israeli side of the fence. Never mind the fact that Palestinians should be able to sustain their own economy in their own state, not rely on Israel.
 
andessmf
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Israel made a very tough, country-splitting decision to withdraw from the land they occupied there

Should be mentioned that Egypt never willingly left the Gaza Strip until the 1967 war.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):
was NOT disengagement, it was at best an enlargement of a prison still controlled by the Israelis

Then why was Hamas celebrating their victory over Israel?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1736361,00.html

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 12):
Unfortunately, Israelis seem much more interested in expelling the Palestinians from the occupied territories by any means necessary

Like they did in Gaza?  sarcastic 

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 12):
I think it's extremely unlikely that any solution that will appease both sides will be reached unless there's a serious change in attitude on the part of the Israelis.

Wouldnt the fact that some Palestinian groups call for the elimination of Israel also require them to have a change in attitude?

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 13):
From everything I've heard, Palestinians living in Jordan are treated like shit.

Remarkable, not a word in any news article about the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab countries. Personally, I believe that Palestinians and Lebanese have been also used and abused by Muslim/Arab countries.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round.

Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):
If the aid that goes to the two parties in arms and dollars had been equal, this conflict would have been settled a long time ago.

You have plenty of wealthy Arab countries that can certainly match what the US provides to Israel per year, and they have not done this. But as 1967 and 1973 proved, if both armies had been equal, Israel would still have come out ahead.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:22 pm

the 2-states-solution, with the Arab Republic of Palestine including the Gaza-Territory, the WestBank (most of it, and without "settlements") and EastJerusalem (without the quarter adjoining the WailingWall and maybe some new Israeli suburbs east of the old line) -- and the State of Israel roughly in the 1948-67 borders but with MINOR corrections as above -- is the one to go for. It will be complicated in Jerusalem where EastJerusalem should be under Palestinian sovereignty but a new "Berlin-Wall" should be avoided. AND it will demand a lot of small and difficult compromises and many modern solutions from BOTH sides. There for instance should be a "transit-road" between Gaza and the WestBank without any "open" intersections. The re-opened Gaza-Airport will be legally under Palestinian control, but for obvious reasons operating in close co-operation with TLV-BenGurion. And, as King Abdullah bin Hussein (Jordan) has outlined, while there will be a regular Palestinian army, Israel should have, as a trust-establishing measure, have the right to send inspectors to the armies of its neighbouring countries on a regular basis, with the reverse-right only beginning 5 years later. The "Road to Peace" is indeed a bit of a gravel-road, and not a 6-lanes-motorway.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist

Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:23 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):

Like they did in Gaza? sarcastic

Why do you think they continue to cut Gaza off from the rest of the world (food, water, electricity, etc.)?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Wouldnt the fact that some Palestinian groups call for the elimination of Israel also require them to have a change in attitude?

Yes.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Remarkable, not a word in any news article about the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab countries. Personally, I believe that Palestinians and Lebanese have been also used and abused by Muslim/Arab countries.

Frankly, the corporate (pro-Israeli) media could give a shit about the Palestinians. You don't see them airing footage of Palestinian women dying in labor because their ambulances get held up at IDF checkpoints or Palestinian men in restraints being beaten with rocks by soldiers on the nightly news, but the second an Israeli soldier is killed it's the top story. You can rely on the media all you want, I prefer first-hand testimonials and whatever independent footage I can get my hands on that's managed to get past the Israeli military censors that screen anything leaving the country.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:42 pm

No, Palestine is just a dream for people who want to erase Israel from the map, I hope though the money spent on wars will be spent on taking land from the sea instead.
My biggest wish is a Kurdistan in current North Iraq and split up of Iraq into 3 countries.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
andessmf
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:56 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Why do you think they continue to cut Gaza off from the rest of the world

IIRC, the Gaza/Egypt border is still open, unless the Egyptians closed up their apartheid wall.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Frankly, the corporate (pro-Israeli) media could give a shit about the Palestinians

Interesting, you turn a part of how badly Palestinians get treated by Arabs into a how badly Israelis treat the Palestinians...
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Interesting, you turn a part of how badly Palestinians get treated by Arabs into a how badly Israelis treat the Palestinians...

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/arabtreatmentofpalestinians.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%2...bs%20in%20Iraq%20Today,%20IRIN.htm

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/return/arab-rtr.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraqjordan/Iraqjordan0503.htm

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/LTIO-6QWKLB?OpenDocument

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 13):
the overwhelming response to the suggestion that Palestinians integrate into Jordanian society was "fuck the Arabs".
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:26 pm

Only way peace would have a hope is to let both Exist.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:04 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 19):
Palestine is just a dream for people who want to erase Israel from the map

just to have it repeated, my ideas about the 2-states-solution, which do NOT contain any "erasing Israel" at all :
-
********************************
the 2-states-solution, with the Arab Republic of Palestine including the Gaza-Territory, the WestBank (most of it, and without "settlements") and EastJerusalem (without the quarter adjoining the WailingWall and maybe some new Israeli suburbs east of the old line) -- and the State of Israel roughly in the 1948-67 borders but with MINOR corrections as above -- is the one to go for. It will be complicated in Jerusalem where EastJerusalem should be under Palestinian sovereignty but a new "Berlin-Wall" should be avoided. AND it will demand a lot of small and difficult compromises and many modern solutions from BOTH sides. There for instance should be a "transit-road" between Gaza and the WestBank without any "open" intersections. The re-opened Gaza-Airport will be legally under Palestinian control, but for obvious reasons operating in close co-operation with TLV-BenGurion. And, as King Abdullah bin Hussein (Jordan) has outlined, while there will be a regular Palestinian army, Israel should have, as a trust-establishing measure, have the right to send inspectors to the armies of its neighbouring countries on a regular basis, with the reverse-right only beginning 5 years later. The "Road to Peace" is indeed a bit of a gravel-road, and not a 6-lanes-motorway.
--
*********************************************
this btw. is more or less the el-Fatah peaceplan which was worked out in about 1985 in Europe by an elFatah rep. and some non-Palestinian friends. It interestingly was widely adopted by the el-Fatah command, which in those times was surprising
-
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 19):
My biggest wish is a Kurdistan in current North Iraq

THIS is OFF-topic here, but a word to it nevertheless. Iraqi Kurdistan at present is so autonomous that it would or rather will only be a small step into independence. The problem is that such a step may destabilize neighbouring Turkey where the Kurds also want to join an independent Kurdistan, but where most Turks reject any such development outright.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round.

Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.

The problem is that both many Palaestinians and Zionist types of Israelis are thinking in a rural mindset, where ownership of as much agrarable land as possible is a necessity and source of pride. Landownership (except for a small plot for a house and garden) becomes increasingly less important if the society turns away from farming to industry. This is how e.g. Hong Kong and Singapore survive. They manufacture and export industrial goods and services but import agrarian products. from less populated, agrarian areas

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
qr332
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:26 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Of course I think a Palestinian state should exist. If it meant peace in the Middle East, I'd support giving up pretty much all of East Jerusalem. But I've never been naive enough to believe that the conflict is about land. It has always been and is still about Israel's right to exist as a sovereign Jewish state. There has been ample proof of this over the years (i.e. the numerous occasions in the 20th Century where Israel accepted partition plans but the Arabs rejected) but I think the events of the past year sum it up best.

The partition plans? They had ever right in the world to reject them, you can't bring a bunch of immigrants in then start splitting up the land so the immigrants can take half, especially when there is still a huge Arab population in that half. Any sane person would have rejected these partitions.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
The European/Arab narrative will tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a conflict that is caused entirely by Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and that if Israel "stops occupying Palestine", there will suddenly be peace in the Middle East. But look at Gaza. Israel made a very tough, country-splitting decision to withdraw from the land they occupied there. Rich American Jews lined up to offer to help the Palestinians build their economy. But what has been the result of the Gaza pullout? Literally thousands of rockets launched into "Israel proper", that is pre-1967 Israel borders capped off by the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. The infrastructure that American Jews invested in--what was supposed to become the foundation of the Palestinian economy--was destroyed within weeks because of the Jewish connection. Does that appear to ANYONE as a peace-loving people recently freed of occupation?

What exactly did these American Jews do for Gaza? They are the same people who help fund the country that is destroying Gaza and has been doing so for years. The pullout was nothing more than a PR stunt, after the pullout assassinations still took place, the borders were still controlled by Israel, and Israel went in more than once - rocket attacks came after Israeli provocation either in the West Bank or through assassinations. As I have said dozens of times before to you, West Bank and Gaza strip are both Palestinian land, they are both connected. If you do something bad in one, you will feel the effects in the other.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Most Israelis (and American Jews) have long backed the creation of a Palestinian state. The problem is (and I will get flamed for saying this, but oh well) that you can't force the Palestinians to live peacefully next to Israel. It simply can't be done.

Because Israel will always provoke the Palestinians, as it has been doing so since 1948.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
The whole world tries to create a state for them while ignoring that it isn't a state that they desire! This is not only counterproductive; it is dangerous for the entire world. The Palestinians know they can get away with brutal terrorism and still count on the UN for refugee status/payments so I really don't expect things to change much in the near future.

Your comments are really starting to border on racism now. What do you mean it isn't a state we desire? You think us Palestinians enjoy not having a state? Do you think people inside Palestine itself want to live under occupation? Do you think people in Gaza want to keep going hungry? You are one twisted person... UN refugee status and payments exist for a reason, just because some who have been put into the position of becoming suicide bombers (thanks to Israel) are bombing civilians, it doesn't mean you punish everyone. I would really love to throw you in Balata or Baq'aa refugee cam and let you just look around RJ. You seem to have this idea that the Palestinians are enjoying all of this money from the UN and living the high life. FYI, in Gaza, they were going hungry just a few weeks ago.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
It sickens me to think of the far more legitimate conflicts that exist in the world that nobody talks about. If the amount of attention/aid/concern that is directed towards trying to get the Palestinians to build their own country was directed towards certain other groups, the world would be far better off.

This isn't a legitimate conflict? You mean, not only do you people deny us our right to our country, and our right to live in peace and security, now your saying people shouldn't pay attention to us? You are just as extreme as those Islamic fundamentalists who don't know shit about shit concerning the things they spew rhetoric about - you just say what propoganda comes up.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Palestinians will never accept peace with Israel because they will lose their main reason for being--fighting Israel. At the end of the day, it is far more difficult to build a state than it is to be a non-state entity fighting another state.

EXCUSE ME?! Don't flatter yourself, we have much more reason to exist than fighting Israel. The problem is, we're the ones who are occupied, we are the ones who have died in the thousands over the years, we are the ones who can't even go anywhere without stopping at a dozen Israeli checkpoints, yet its us fighting Israel? Have you forgotten what Israel did to Gaza the past few weeks? People like you are the ones that are truly dangerous in this world...

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 13):
From everything I've heard, Palestinians living in Jordan are treated like shit. People make too much of the fact that Palestinians and Jordanians both happen to be Arabs, as Palestinians think of themselves as Palestinians, not Arabs. The student that I mentioned in the post above discussed this very issue with many Palestinians, and he told me that the overwhelming response to the suggestion that Palestinians integrate into Jordanian society was "fuck the Arabs". Personally, I wouldn't be too happy if some foreign invader took my land and expected me to move to Idaho to integrate simply because Washingtonians and Idahoans are both Americans.

People aren't exactly treated like shit, but there will always be a divide... as a Palestinian with a full Jordanian citizenship, I personally still see myself as a Palestinian, as do most Palestinians in Jordan. But, Jordanians and Palestinians get aloing much better than in the past (google Black September), and Palestinians are intergrated into society much more than in other countries; in Jordan, they can pretty much work in anything other than the army. Also, we do actually see ourselves as Arabs... we just see ourselves as Palestinian Arabs. Something a lot of people don't understand is that Palestinian Arabs are very different from Gulf Arabs, Lebanese Arabs, Syrian Arabs, etc and that it is not easy to intergrate them together.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Then why was Hamas celebrating their victory over Israel?

Because they needed a bit of good propoganda? Like Bravo said, it was nothing more than giving the Gazans a bit more territory and freedom, which was subject to being taken away any time the Israelis felt like it.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Like they did in Gaza? sarcastic

They have absolutley no interest in a small strip of land densley populated with millions of Palestinians that doesn't have any real value. Israel's real interest is in the West Bank, and they are trying to make conditions as unbearable as possible to try to get Palestinians out. Part of it is the Palestinians having no work, no money, their cities being regularly bombarded, etc.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Remarkable, not a word in any news article about the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab countries. Personally, I believe that Palestinians and Lebanese have been also used and abused by Muslim/Arab countries.

The Lebanese have indeed been abused by the Syrians, but it is not the same thing as the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been intergrated in many places (with the worst one in terms of intergrating refugees being Lebanon), but, take it from a Palestinian, there hasn't been any real mistreatment. Most of it exists in Lebanon, and today, most places Palestinians are perfectly fine.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
Landownership (except for a small plot for a house and garden) becomes increasingly less important if the society turns away from farming to industry. This is how e.g. Hong Kong and Singapore survive. They manufacture and export industrial goods and services

A good example of how to use resources is Lebanon, which beside some agriculture with fruit, vegetables and wines, concentrates on international banking, insurance, tourism, international trade, etc .
 
airxliban
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:57 pm

I reckon they should both exist. Israel simply because it has done. Even for those countries that don't accept that fact, it's still a defacto state and as Falc said to suggest disbanding Israel is far removed from reality. That said, I don't know if there is a legitimate political reason as to why a small ethnic group with an ancient pedigee should have its own state. But that's beside the point.

Imho the Palestinians are entitled to their own country by historical precedent as well as the fact that their current state is also somewhat of a defacto thing and is not going away any time soon.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
The European/Arab narrative will tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a conflict that is caused entirely by Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and that if Israel "stops occupying Palestine", there will suddenly be peace in the Middle East.

That is a highly accurate description of the sentiment in the UK, Europe and some but not all of the Arab world. I don't know that the Gaza example is fitting, but bulk of Jew haters and Arab sympathizers do think that the whole thing is about land, whereas the reality is that its a fig leaf for pan Arab issues and precious few could give two sh!ts about the land issue for what it actualy is.

That said, solving of the land issue and the adopting of the two state solution will imho bring an end to some if not all the conflict in the region.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
halls120
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

 checkmark 

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round. There is no peaceable solution to that problem - either Israel holds on to the lion's share by force, as at present, and Palestine goes short; or the other way round.

2. Both states are run on religious, not secular, lines. Israel in particular allows unlimited inward migration for people of the Jewish faith, zilch for most others. Again, 'never the twain shall meet.'

3. That (to my mind absurd) Zionist idea that God promised the whole place to the Jews bedevils the whole field of Israeli politics. Any Israeli prime minister who suggested offering to withdraw to the 1967 borders (especially giving up East Jerusalem) would likely be run out of town on a rail within hours; or lynched.

The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine, and Palestine would benefit by having Israel as a source of jobs and also as a market for its agricultural produce.

The logical answer would be to accept that the whole damn place is too small for two sovereign countries anyway; and set up a federated, multi-religious state with all of Jerusalem as an international zone. All broadly as envisaged by the UN in the first place.

Until you get to the last paragraph, I agree completely. Given the current state of human development, with our inability to separate religion from politics, I don't think your proposed federated multi-religious state will work. At least not in that part of the world.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
qr332
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 29):
Until you get to the last paragraph, I agree completely. Given the current state of human development, with our inability to separate religion from politics, I don't think your proposed federated multi-religious state will work. At least not in that part of the world.

Actually, it probably would work, but Israel would never accept it because there would be no more state especially for Jews.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):

QR, are you going to address the basic premise of this thread, or just continue your anti-Israeli rants?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cedars747
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:35 pm

From a religious point of view ,an Israeli state is not possible and one of the reasons is that the Torah forbids Jews to end the exile and establish a state and army until god redeems them.This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah.Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden,and they are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world.God has warned them that if they transgress this injuction,he will bring upon them terrible punishment
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
The partition plans? They had ever right in the world to reject them, you can't bring a bunch of immigrants in then start splitting up the land so the immigrants can take half, especially when there is still a huge Arab population in that half. Any sane person would have rejected these partitions.

Well I guess that's your answer to Falcon's questions. As long as Arabs are not willing to accept a basic partition (then or now), there will never be peace.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
What exactly did these American Jews do for Gaza?

Let's see, wrote rather large checks of their own personal money to try to help the Palestinians jump start their economy and live in peace with Israel.....

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
The pullout was nothing more than a PR stunt

Bulls*it. Do you really believe this, QR? If you do, you certainly have no understanding of Israeli society. Did you watch any of the coverage last summer? It was a soul-wrenching decision, it resulted in serious tension within Israeli society for the first time in years...Believe me, something that huge is not a PR stunt despite what Arab conspiracy theorists think.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
attacks came after Israeli provocation either in the West Bank or through assassinations.

Bullsh*t QR. The attacks have been steady over the past year and the Israeli government barely responded.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
You think us Palestinians enjoy not having a state?

Yes, I do.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
Do you think people inside Palestine itself want to live under occupation?

No, I don't.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
we have much more reason to exist than fighting Israel.

Yet to be proven.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
The problem is, we're the ones who are occupied, we are the ones who have died in the thousands over the years, we are the ones who can't even go anywhere without stopping at a dozen Israeli checkpoints, yet its us fighting Israel?

Don't say "we", QR. As far as I can tell, you are not even Palestinian. You live a life of near royalty in QR, so don't link yourselves to the average Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank. Hypocrite.

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 28):
That is a highly accurate description of the sentiment in the UK, Europe and some but not all of the Arab world. I don't know that the Gaza example is fitting, but bulk of Jew haters and Arab sympathizers do think that the whole thing is about land, whereas the reality is that its a fig leaf for pan Arab issues and precious few could give two sh!ts about the land issue for what it actualy is.

Thank you for posting this....

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 28):
That said, solving of the land issue and the adopting of the two state solution will imho bring an end to some if not all the conflict in the region.

I don't agree with this at all. I don't see how solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict--a very, very small localized conflict in the scheme of things--will end Arab-Western problems, Arab-Arab problems, and finally internal Arab problems. Will solving the I-P conflict change daily life in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or Syria? Absolutely not.

Now of course a two-state solution would hopefully end fighting between Israel and the Palestinians. BUT I feel that if any two-state solution were ever to be implemented, it would just be hijacked and destroyed by one of the numerous dictators in the region a la Hezbollah's actions last month. For as you hinted, the I-P issue is really not something that the Arab leaders want to solve....My opinion on the matter mirrors Noah Feldman, an NYU Law Professor, Islamic expert, and all-around genius (look him up, seriously!). I feel that if the governments of the Arab world were more free, transparent, and democratic then the I-P conflict would solve itself. It is literally a conflict continually fueled by Arab authoritarians.

So in a nutshell, I don't think the I-P conflict will ever be solved on it's own. It will only be solved when the region's problems are solved (and by region, I don't mean the I-P conflict, I mean the region's numerous other issues).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine

They did for years, until the Palestinians shot themselves in the foot by starting two intifadas...You know what they say, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Because of the difficulty of getting into Israel now, Palestinians looking for work have a rather difficult time. Israel has instead adopted a successful guest-worker program with lots of Thai workers among others.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Well I guess that's your answer to Falcon's questions. As long as Arabs are not willing to accept a basic partition (then or now), there will never be peace.

Most Arabs are favouring the 2-states-solution. In Palestine, negotiations have started to establish a Hamas-elFatah coalition government which might be in a better position than the present one to get into detail-negotiations with the Israelis. Syria in recent days has indicated that it wants a re-start of their negotiations with Israel.
 
AGM100
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:00 am

This is a question that is ground zero of the entire ME situation. In Western thinking we have or at least I do , the idea that they should just get along somehow and coexist. pass the refer dude...

I am not to optimistic that coexistence will ever happen completely. In my mind the issue has moved well beyond a simple land occupation. The Muslim world sees the Israelis as infidels and are deeply hostile to their existence. Even if the government that ME ANV FAN describes above would form , and negotiations would proceed ,the idea of coexistence is a long way from reality.

IMO the onus really lies on the shoulders of the Muslim world. Israel and the Palestinians have historical claim to the land, that we know. Israel has proven in that past that they will exist as an open society free for Palestinians to work live etc. Israel has also proven in the past that they will work on economically beneficial terms with the Palestinians. These steps taken by Israel to be inclusive of the Palestinian people as neighbors has reaped them only violence and hatred.

My above points are to take away the idea of a greater Israel inclusive of the Palestinians as citizens. This leaves only the option of a Greater Palestine with Jews and Muslims living together under a coalition government inclusive of all people of Palestine. I can vision this , but do not hold much hope of anyone living thier to do so.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
the idea of coexistence is a long way from reality.

it in fact already is existing and practiced. Exactly what we have now in Palestine/Israel, this PA-government, is something the Israelis in the 70ies even refused to talk about.
 
AA777
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
It has always been and is still about Israel's right to exist as a sovereign Jewish state.

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Jews and Arabs lived peacefully side by side until 1948....thats when the major aggression started and when they were forced from their homes.... THAT is what the conflict is about.

It is simply about having a homeland.

As far as who should exist... both should exist. I think personally that a two state solution must be worked out. I'd like there to be one state, where both Jews and Arabs could live side by side, but I think the mutual distate and history would cause problems.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
Israel has proven in that past that they will exist as an open society free for Palestinians to work live etc. Israel has also proven in the past that they will work on economically beneficial terms with the Palestinians.

Yes, an open and free society that practices unabashed segregation in the public school system. An open and free society that builds a wall in Palestinian areas that makes it impossible for people to get to and from work. An open and free society that makes people wait hours at checkpoints, so they cannot work. An open and free society that bulldozes entire homes and apartment complexes, yielding dozens homeless, because they claim to be after a few terrorists. An open and free society that kidnaps and detains Palestinian government members just because they can and because they have been 'accused' of some wrongdoing? Economically beneficial for the Palestinians? Yeah, right.

-AA777
 
LY744
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Why do you think they continue to cut Gaza off from the rest of the world (food, water, electricity, etc.)?

Let's see, maybe because every time the border opens the Hamas & Co gets more and more weapons in?

As for those of you dreaming of an Arab controlled East Jerusalem, stop wasting pixels. Ain't happening. Ever. I'm not even saying I like it or that's the way it should be, or whatever. I'm saying it just won't happen.

I am saying, however, that I'm wholly in favour of all Israeli settlers being moved out of the pre-1967 lands of the west bank. BUT, there's one good reason for why it will be next to impossible to achieve, as things stand right now. Settlers account for something like 5% of Israel's population. Yet their kids comprise as much as 25% (rough estimate) of the personnel of combat units in the IDF. How many soldiers from Tel Aviv, Israel's largest city, were killed in Lebanon in the latest conflict? Zero. Yet some settler villages lost multiple residents in battle.

The point is that trying to de-settle the WB by force is not very feasible, and could bring Israel to the brink of a civil war (to the delight of many I'm sure). Last time that happened it didn't work out too well for the Jews IIRC.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
halls120
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 30):
Actually, it probably would work, but Israel would never accept it because there would be no more state especially for Jews.

Sorry, but in this instance, I think there is enough blame to go around for all. Radical Islamists would reject a secular state just as fast as the Israelis would.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
andessmf
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 37):
Jews and Arabs lived peacefully side by side until 1948

Not quite correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Arab_Uprising
 
AGM100
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
in fact already is existing and practiced. Exactly what we have now in Palestine/Israel, this PA-government, is something the Israelis in the 70ies even refused to talk about.

Coexistence ? existing while hands on each others thoats most of the time...

Again , until the Muslim world as a whole accepts the state of Israel and the radicals stop brain washing the kids... all of the who did what when does not matter. They both claim the land and percieve to have historical "rights" equaly.

I guess the answer that most of the world would want to hear is that Israel should go away. Its just that simple , like the US ,Israel is cause of everyone on earths problems.

Their is no answer to Falcons question that does not invlove blood up the bridels and all that.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
N1120A
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:14 am

One country, named Palestine or anything other than Israel (the country should not have a name based in religion) organized federally, with a real constitution and a complete separation of church and state. It should be the homeland for anyone who wants to live there, not those of any specific religious or ethnic group. Since there will be concentrations of various ethnic groups, particularly at the start, those areas should both have limited self rule and there should be a strong, centralized federal government over the areas with self rule.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CX747
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:16 am

I think that Israel should exist and all of the neighboring Arab countries that hate it should donate land to form a Palestinian state.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
One country, named Palestine or anything other than Israel (the country should not have a name based in religion) organized federally, with a real constitution and a complete separation of church and state. It should be the homeland for anyone who wants to live there, not those of any specific religious or ethnic group. Since there will be concentrations of various ethnic groups, particularly at the start, those areas should both have limited self rule and there should be a strong, centralized federal government over the areas with self rule.

Yes, it must be so nice to be so removed from reality!

As far as I'm concerned, the only way there's no Israel is if it's destroyed, with millions of deaths.

Is that what you want?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
N1120A
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 44):
As far as I'm concerned, the only way there's no Israel is if it's destroyed, with millions of deaths.

Is that what you want?

That is your sick fantasy, not mine. My family has already had enough of the Holocaust, we want nothing to do with the one you seem to advocate

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 44):
Yes, it must be so nice to be so removed from reality!

Hey, you were asking an opinion and I was giving it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
That is your sick fantasy, not mine.

Excuse me? How is it my sick fantasy, since I'm a supporter of Israel, dude? It's not my sick fantasy, but one of those who apologize for and excuse the actions of Arab terrorists.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
My family has already had enough of the Holocaust, we want nothing to do with the one you seem to advocate

I'm not advocating it, dude. I answered your suggestion that there be one state, anything but Israel. And my response you'll only not have an Israel if it's destroyed.

Read the damn post, will you?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
Hey, you were asking an opinion and I was giving it.

And I gave you my opinion on your opinion. Even.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
N1120A
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 46):
I answered your suggestion that there be one state, anything but Israel.

My suggestion was that there be one state, with a non-religious name. Israel is a religious name. If they named the country the United Mohammadian Republic, I would take issue with that as well.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
If they named the country the United Mohammadian Republic, I would take issue with that as well.

Why are you singling out Israel for being a religious state? Where is your criticism of...Oh let's start with the Islamic Republican of Iran and then every other Muslim country on the face of the earth.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
qr332
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RE: Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist

Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
QR, are you going to address the basic premise of this thread, or just continue your anti-Israeli rants?

Every one knows my answer, of course I want a Palestinian state established! I have said it time and time again that there should be a state established with all of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Well I guess that's your answer to Falcon's questions. As long as Arabs are not willing to accept a basic partition (then or now), there will never be peace.

No, the situation over 60 years ago was different - they were fresh immigrants. Even up until 1967, the Israeli state had only been around for 19 years and I would have supported any action to destroy it. Now, its not that easy, there are new generations of Israelis with no other place to call home and for us to push them out would be hypocritical.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Let's see, wrote rather large checks of their own personal money to try to help the Palestinians jump start their economy and live in peace with Israel.....

Sources?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Bulls*it. Do you really believe this, QR? If you do, you certainly have no understanding of Israeli society. Did you watch any of the coverage last summer? It was a soul-wrenching decision, it resulted in serious tension within Israeli society for the first time in years...Believe me, something that huge is not a PR stunt despite what Arab conspiracy theorists think.

Of course I do! You think, of all people, Ariel Sharon gives a damn about the well being of the Palestinians? And my heart goes out for those poor settlers living on land they stole from Palestinians, especially considering their army was destroying Palestinian homes next door  Yeah sure

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Bullsh*t QR. The attacks have been steady over the past year and the Israeli government barely responded.

"Barely responded"? ROFL! The whole reason Hamas started targeting Israel again after their ceasefire was Israel attacking Gaza, do I need to remind you of the family killed on the beach? Or the dozens that have died because they were next to people that were targeted on the street? Or is all that irrelevant now?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Yes, I do.

Then you are a hopeless case that is seriously brainwashed to the furthest extent I have ever seen...

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
No, I don't.

Not only are you brainwashed, you contradict yourself? If they don't want occupation, and they don't want a state, just what do they want?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Yet to be proven.

Sure, RJ. We breath just to fight Israel  Yeah sure

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Don't say "we", QR. As far as I can tell, you are not even Palestinian. You live a life of near royalty in QR, so don't link yourselves to the average Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank. Hypocrite.

Royality? Damn man, you really are completley delusional. Just because your too xenophobic to step outside the borders of New York, don't come throwing things you don't know about people. You seem to be completley against Europeans and Arabs both, keep your sorry ass in America and don't bother us then. And don't tell me i'm not Palestinian, some brainwashed Jewish boy in New York has no right to tell me that more than anyone else. The only reason i'm not living in Palestine and that I can't visit it is because of the sorry excuse for a nation that you worship. Yes, I am not like the average Palestinian in West Bank and Gaza, and thank God for that... you talk like you know me, RJ, but its always easy to make yourself look like you know things on the internet...

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 39):
Sorry, but in this instance, I think there is enough blame to go around for all. Radical Islamists would reject a secular state just as fast as the Israelis would.

But radical Islamists don't have a hold on Palestinians... people voted Hamas because they are the only option other than the corrupt Fateh. Palestinians are very secular people (there is a significant Christian minority), and would as a nation probably not have anything against a secular state.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 40):
Not quite correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_A...ising

I think he meant until a significant number of Jewish people had moved to Palestine and they had made their intentions clear... the Zionists didn't hide their desire for Palestine, and there were several groups such as the Irgun which routinley terrorized Palestinians. The Great Arab Uprising was the direct result of the British promising Palestinian land to the Jews... something they had no right to do. The articles on Wikipedia are very one-sided and do not refer to many of the things committed by the Jews prior to 1948, and during 1948.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 43):
I think that Israel should exist and all of the neighboring Arab countries that hate it should donate land to form a Palestinian state.

Why? Why can't Palestinians have a state on their land. Why should be home city of Nablus be given to Israel, or East Jerusalem, or whatever?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
Hey, you were asking an opinion and I was giving it.

While it would be the ideal solution, as it would mean that both the Jews and the Palestinians would have a state, and the Palestinians could go back to what is theirs, it is indeed impossible... but, I agree with you, it is the best solution.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

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