Falcon84
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LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:51 am

A student at LSU is going to try an innovative way to get students to talk about the use of the Rebel flag being flown with LSU colors at Tiger football games.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2569286

I personally thing this is a great idea. A good way to get students together, over hot dogs and drinks, and DISCUSS the issue. What a novel idea, to actually discuss such an issue, instead of yelling at each other.

I hope it works.
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jetjack74
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
A student at LSU is going to try an innovative way to get students to talk about the use of the Rebel flag being flown with LSU colors at Tiger football games.

Well, it's a flag, it's part of American history. The civil rights community looks upon the rebel flag the same way the world looks at the swastika. THEY associate the flag as a symbol of hate, which it isn't. I wouldn't fly the flag in my yard, but I don't demonise it like some do.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
instead of yelling at each other.

Well, that's awfully hard for some, but cooler heads should prevail. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I hope it works.

Yikes
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tbar220
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:10 am

Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?
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57AZ
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:14 am

Also, it should be noted that most people probably would not be able to pick a real Confederate flag out of a lineup of flags. What most people call the Confederate flag is technically the modified Confederate Battle Ensign. It is modified in that it has a rectangular shape rather than the correct square shape with the St. Andrew's Cross. The actual Confederate Flag is either the First, Second or Third National Flag. The First National Flag aka the Stars and Bars has 13 stars in the blue field in the upper left corner and three horizontal stripes-red, white and red. The Second National Flag has the Battle Engsign in the place of the blue field and the rest of the flag is white. The Third National Flag is the same as the Second National but with a vertical red stripe on the right side. Some may also consider the "Bonnie Blue Flag" to be the First National Flag of the Confederacy though it was never adopted as such. The Bonnie Blue Flag had a white star centered on the blue flag which could be either square, a pennant or a swallow-tail pennant.
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jetjack74
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?

Exacty, why? Because it's commonly referred to as the symbol of the Confederacy, but it was just the flag of the Confederate Army. I think it's a symbol of American History and whether liked or disliked, it should remembered as an important symbol of this countries past just like the freeing of the slaves.
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?

Because it was a battle flag for what was hoped to be a country...and slavery wasn't the only issue at play...

HOWEVER...

How come this flag isn't considered treasonous? I mean to fly the flag of a nation that was essentially the US's enemy...southern heritage or not...they wrote the check, Lincoln cashed it. Deal with it.

Time to be patriotic...adopt an American flag and lose the stars n' bars. It's no different than taking down a US flag and putting up a Mexican flag at a Post Office IMO.

It may be kitch...but it's a relic that has no relavance. The US flag is better suited to covering the heritage of the whole nation...including the South.

Again, just my two cents in the matter. I could care less, and I'm not advocating sending half of Mississippi to Gitmo over it...

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FlyVirgin744
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?

The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery. Slavery was one of many issues the south felt the federal gov't shouldn't be involved in (ie a state's rights issue). Even if the confederacy had won the war and was a seperate country now I doubt it would still have slavery.

Therefore most consider it a symbol of southern pride. The south is still quite different from the north and southerners like to show their heritage, the symbol they have to do that...the confederate flag.
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FlyVirgin744
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:04 am

I also want to add many public schools in the south are named after famous confederates. My cousin went to Jefferson Davis Middle.
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Falcon84
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
The civil rights community looks upon the rebel flag the same way the world looks at the swastika. THEY associate the flag as a symbol of hate, which it isn't.

Actually, it represented a system where one race was made to serve the other, for the benefit of the other race. That is, in essence, a form of hatred, JetJack. It's connotation was clear-the South wanted to keep slavery.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
Exacty, why?

Again, because it symbolized the South's desire to keep bondage as national policy. That's why.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
Because it was a battle flag for what was hoped to be a country...and slavery wasn't the only issue at play...

It was the over-riding issue. That's something that modern-day Southern revisionists don't want to admit. The war, in the end, was fought over the institution of slavery. It may not have started that way, but, in the end, that's what it was fought over. Not taxes; not giving more power to the individual state, but over slavery, and whether it would be continued on this part of the Continent.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
How come this flag isn't considered treasonous?

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't quite treasonous today. To me, it was back in the time of war.

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery.

Wrong. It was fought over a number of states wanting to keep slavery. Other issues were minor sidebars, that paled in comparrison to the white South keeping blacks as beasts of burden.

Again, I hope, despite JetJack's derision, that it works. It'd be better for those who are for the flag, and oppose it, to sit down, and discuss it, as we do here, and find common ground. It DOES symbolize, to many Americans, not just black Americans, a shameful past, and a "nation" that wanted to further the institution of bondage. It DOES symbolize to some Southerners, a sense of regional pride. It should NOT be used, I think, as a symbol for any modern school in the South.
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
Even if the confederacy had won the war and was a seperate country now I doubt it would still have slavery.

Nope but they would have had it a hell of a lot longer than 1865...So that must make it alright for you...

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deltagator
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
instead of yelling at each other.

Sadly it always degrades into ylling from both sides.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
and slavery wasn't the only issue at play...

Someone wasn't sleeping in History class.  Wink

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery. Slavery was one of many issues the south felt the federal gov't shouldn't be involved in (ie a state's rights issue).

Make that two people awake.  Wink

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
Even if the confederacy had won the war and was a seperate country now I doubt it would still have slavery.

I'm a died in the wool Southerner and I will fully admit the North could have fought the war with one arm tied behind their back and they still would have won.

Here's my thing on the flag. I don't have a problem with it personally. What I do have a problem with is how the state of Georgia (my home state now) put the Confederate battle flag on their flag as a big "fuck you" to the Feds back in the mid-50s. I have always supported changing the flag to what it is today.

As to the NAACP and other groups complaining about the Georgia or Mississippi flags then please feel free to harass the other states of the Confederacy whose flags today still hold symbols of that time otherwise your complaints will be met by my deaf ears.

Another note to folks in the NAACP that had the Confederate flag brought down from the SC State House and placed in a Confederate soldier memorial on the lawn of the Capitol...don't start complaining the following year that you don't like the compromise you agreed to and now you want it completely gone. You lost all credibility with me after that one.

I can understand the resentment and feelings that some folks have towards the flag. I can also understand the history of the flag and what it means, right or wrong, to folks. Getting rid of the flag is rewriting history and that smacks a fair amount like 1984.

Just my two cents. I could be wrong.
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maury
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:11 pm

Pardon my pun, but: it's nice to see the true colors coming out in some of our folk on here, eh? By Jetjack's "logic," we should be cool with Germans flying the swastika flag...just a part of history after all! And it's not like wiping out the Jews was the *only* reason they went to war, right Jetjack?

Utterly amazing.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
Someone wasn't sleeping in History class.

And someone was--the fella who forgot to look up just who that bridge over the St. Johns River was actually named after. Msut've been napping through that part of History 101. eh DeltaGator? Speaking of low credibility and all.
 
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting Maury (Reply 11):
And someone was--the fella who forgot to look up just who that bridge over the St. Johns River was actually named after. Msut've been napping through that part of History 101. eh DeltaGator? Speaking of low credibility and all.

Must...not...feed...the...troll. Let it go Maury, I screwed that one up good but I've moved on.
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N200WN
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery.

Wrong. It was fought over a number of states wanting to keep slavery. Other issues were minor sidebars, that paled in comparrison to the white South keeping blacks as beasts of burden.

Actually, the only reason the Civil War was fought by the north was to preserve the Union.
 
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:01 pm

Quoting Maury (Reply 11):
And it's not like wiping out the Jews was the *only* reason they went to war, right Jetjack?

Actually it wasnt the reason to go to war. But since this war and the killing of the jews are closely connected through the nazi regime I would find it very inappropriate to fly a swastika flag.
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57AZ
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:05 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
I can understand the resentment and feelings that some folks have towards the flag. I can also understand the history of the flag and what it means, right or wrong, to folks. Getting rid of the flag is rewriting history and that smacks a fair amount like 1984.

Precisely. The reason that most people who object to the Confederate Battle Ensign do so has nothing to do with the flag itself. Rather it has to do with the adoption of the flag by numerous white supermacist groups as their symbol-specifically the second incarnation of the Ku Klux Klan. Remember that they were in power socially and politically from the 1920s on and were heavily involved with the Dixiecrats (southern Democrats for you non-US folk). For the Dixiecrats, the way to insure they remained in power was to keep the blacks "in their place."

I certainly agree that a postwar Confederate States of America would probably have abolished slavery at some point. They were aware that foreign powers that they wanted to enter the war were hesitant to do so specifically because of the slavery matter. To be fair, it should be remembered that the United States of America wasn't that friendly to the former slaves either. There was a great deal of racism north of the Mason-Dixon line and many northerners certainly did not look at blacks as their equals. In fact, organized labor didn't want the blacks to move north and compete for work, thus depressing wages. Lincoln didn't push abolition in the United States as allowing slavery was key to keeping important border states-specifically Maryland-from seceding. Lincoln was also the proponant of the purchase of slaves and the establishment of a free country for them in Liberia. Thus while most of the abolitionists were northerners, they certainly are not a representative of the entire group.

As for rewriting history, it can't be done. Reinterpreted perhaps but not rewritten.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
It DOES symbolize, to many Americans, not just black Americans, a shameful past, and a "nation" that wanted to further the institution of bondage.

True. The Ku Klux Klan is an example of a rare situation where broadening one's viewpoint is bad. They went from hating only blacks, abolitionists and Republicans to hating blacks, abolitionists, Republicans, Catholics and Jews (to name the most hated groups).
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JGPH1A
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:35 pm

Sometimes an old flag can make a political statement that the original designers of the flag never intended for it to make. Flying a confederate flag in the US is a bit like flying an old Transvaal or South African flag in SA. Neither flag in it's design makes any particular statement on race, although the old SA flag is replete with colonial symbolism, but neither was DESIGNED with racist overtones in mind; unfortunately their political associations in the past give them that connotation now. Same with the confederate flag, I guess - flying it these days shows to say the least a lack of sensitivity.
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Falcon84
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting N200WN (Reply 13):
Actually, the only reason the Civil War was fought by the north was to preserve the Union.

To begin with, that is true. But after President Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclaimation, it changed the whole outlook on the war. Yes, it was to preserve the Union, but the North made it clear that in order to preserve the Union, slavery had to be destroyed once and for all. Up until that point, many in the North were willing to still reach a compromise on slavery, if the Confederacy only abandoned its plan for a separate state. That ended with the Proclaimation. It then became a fight over whether slavery would continue to exist in the South.
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 15):
Precisely. The reason that most people who object to the Confederate Battle Ensign do so has nothing to do with the flag itself. Rather it has to do with the adoption of the flag by numerous white supermacist groups as their symbol-specifically the second incarnation of the Ku Klux Klan. Remember that they were in power socially and politically from the 1920s on and were heavily involved with the Dixiecrats (southern Democrats for you non-US folk). For the Dixiecrats, the way to insure they remained in power was to keep the blacks "in their place."

That is exactly why I cannot stand the flag. Unfortunately people seem to take pride in it here in Texas....I always say to them "The war is over." They don't care for that much...
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maury
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:26 am

The racist aspects of the Confederacy don't seem to bother some of it's fans, as listed above.

Anyone who can gloss over the racist aspects of our Civil War is -- well, glossing over racism. To do so in the name of misguided "geo-locus pride"...is really weak.

Think of all of the positive symbols that say "American South"...but the one they not only rally 'round but pick fights over is the symbol that says "hey, we once left the US and fought hard to preserve a 'way of life' based around white supremacy!" Rather telling...but not clever regional-marketing. It probably says more about the people who defend the symbol than about the region in general...one hopes.
 
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:48 am

As a flag it was part of your nations history for better or worse. It's been hijacked and re-hijacked by many groups and causes over the years. However, there is no need to get hyper sensitive about it. I probably knew that flag before I knew what the US flag looked like - because I was 8 yrs old watching the Dukes of Hazzard!! Ask most (non - US) people my age about General Lee, and we'll say it was the car Bo and Luke Duke drove.
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:12 am

What we generally refer to as the 'Confederate' flag was brought back in the mid-1950's and in popular use by white Southerners as a reaction to the Federal government's anti-discrimation actions, including ending legal segeration of blacks from whites. In some states, they made the 'stars and bars' to be part of the state flags of several former CSA states. Some states still have elements of it in their flags today, including Florida and Arkansas. Many White Southerners wanted to keep blacks 'in their place' and massively discrimate against them for their (whites) own social and economic benefit. So they used the flag as a symbol of their agenda and it still is seen as that today by many.
 
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:36 am

Why would LSU want anything to do with one of Ole Miss' symbols? Then again, both schools share the corn dog fixation, so who knows.

As for the rest of this, I'd like to respond, but I feel there's too much public school indoctrinated ignorance to have a genuine discussion.

[Edited 2006-09-02 22:38:25]
 
FlyVirgin744
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Wrong. It was fought over a number of states wanting to keep slavery.

Many historians would disagree with you. But we are having a "discussion" so there will be disagreements  Wink Don't forget, there were those in the non-slave states who were still for slavery back then, its not as black and white as we all might think. Even the political parties from the birth of the nation were driven on whether you were a federalist or an anti-federalist.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 9):
Nope but they would have had it a hell of a lot longer than 1865...So that must make it alright for you...

How you got that from my post I have no idea. I was conveying slavery was not the only issue of the war and in no way does that make it a right thing!! I was just saying that I felt maybe they would have come around eventually, but looking at how the civil rights movement was just in the 1960s, I may very well be wrong. Sorry didn't mean to offend and I definitely do not feel that way.
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jetjack74
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Maury (Reply 11):
By Jetjack's "logic," we should be cool with Germans flying the swastika flag...just a part of history after all! And it's not like wiping out the Jews was the *only* reason they went to war, right Jetjack?

Not even close, Sherlock. What I mean't was, the campaign to demonise the rebel flag, by likening it to the flag of the 3rd reich is what is silly. The rebel flag was a symbol of few band of goons who wanted to be a soveregn nation exempt from the laws of the unionist north. The Nazi flag was resurrected by a tyrant who had dreams of building a racially purest state. Maury, you're very good at hitting below the waist becuase you were probably beat up alot as kid, but don't try and spin my words to support your neurotic narcistic views. Oh and by the way, the swastika was a symbol stolen from an American Indian tribe, only reversed. So Maury, have any more teen paternity tests on the show this week?

Quoting Maury (Reply 19):
The racist aspects of the Confederacy don't seem to bother some of it's fans, as listed above

No, it's what you percieve to be a flag built on racism, and nothing else.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Actually, it represented a system where one race was made to serve the other, for the benefit of the other race. That is, in essence, a form of hatred, JetJack. It's connotation was clear-the South wanted to keep slavery.

But that's not what the flag was founded on. The opposition to the rebel flag issue is becuase a few of the ring leaders decided they didn't like based on the opinions of old mom and pop who's great, great, great grandparents decended from slaves, and I might add most likely never, ever having really researched the real history behind, but going by what was passed down through family folklore. I don't know very much about it either, but I do know that it there is no proof that a bunch of white, black hating southerners were sitting around a dinner table designing a flag simply to symbolise slavery. The only difference between the North and the South, was that slavery was legal in the south, and wasn't in the North. But it was only that way because a few men endorsed the Emancipation Proclamation. The general opinion of many northerners was, that slavery should still have been legalised.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
Flying a confederate flag in the US is a bit like flying an old Transvaal or South African flag in SA. Neither flag in it's design makes any particular statement on race, although the old SA flag is replete with colonial symbolism, but neither was DESIGNED with racist overtones in mind;

Excellent. I could not have said any better.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Again, I hope, despite JetJack's derision, that it works. It'd be better for those who are for the flag, and oppose it, to sit down, and discuss it, as we do here, and find common ground

It's got nothing to deriding the well-intentioned and i'm not debating whether the flag should be sanctioned or rejected, but the participants should be well-versed, and well-educated on the flag and it's sybolism from an impartial source, and not from some angry professor from Grambling State or UC-Berkley. Otherwise, a debate forum led by a group of angry, hand-wringing so-called intellectuals who're clueless to the facts, makes a "debate" pointless and moreover just another inept pep-rally for the socially blind, no matter how "friendly" the atmosphere is. It's realism, not just cynicism.  

[Edited 2006-09-02 22:52:42]
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maury
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:16 am

Interesting, the lengths a few (thankfully few!) will go to in support of such a symbol. Personal attacks, coded innuendo...I guess the Confederate flag means a lot to some of our members. Now if they'd just tell us why...given the truths behind our civil war, and the truths behind the flag of the renegade Confederate States of America and all that wannabe-nation stood for...why the angry responses and why the devotion?

I'm enjoying the revisionist history lessons though...although some are having a tough time minimalizing the importance of the conflict. Jetjack makes the Civil War sound like a passing tiff between cousins over a recipe for barbecue, and if that was true, why get so twisted up over the CSA's symbol, over 140 years after the war was over? Time to adopt the US flag, and do as DeltaGator did when reminded of his shortcomings as a historian and "move on."
 
deltagator
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Maury (Reply 25):
and do as DeltaGator did when reminded of his shortcomings as a historian

Why does my screwup with the name of a bridge bother you so much. Just wondering?
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maury
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
Why does my screwup with the name of a bridge

You was lecturin' others on history, and seems you mighta forgot that you wasn't always on the ball, history-wise... How often did your family mistakenly tell people that bridges were named after your kin, anyway? Just wondering.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):
angry professor from Grambling State or UC-Berkley.

Oh yes...do tell, JetJack, why you chose those two schools as examples? Just wondering.
 
deltagator
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting Maury (Reply 27):
How often did your family mistakenly tell people that bridges were named after your kin, anyway?

He wasn't kin Maury so who is wrong now? That's right...you. His last name was Shands and that is where my first name comes from. The bridge was named after a different Shands than the one I was named after. Stick to the topic at hand instead of throwing out your typical insults that get your opinion nowhere.
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jetjack74
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting Maury (Reply 27):
Oh yes...do tell, JetJack, why you chose those two schools as examples? Just wondering.

Grambling State is an predomanantly African-American University, and UC-Berkley, a predominantly Liberal school. Most likely 2 school where you likely to find intense opposition to the the rebel flag debate.
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dl021
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:19 am

US soldiers from southern states, especially national guard/militia units, went to war using that pennant as an unofficial battle flag in the Spanish-American War, the Mexican Campaign, WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam and it acted as guidon and rallying point off of horses, motorcars, tanks and APCs throughout those conflicts and it's use by those soldiers makes it a symbol for bravery, hardiness and resourcefulness for many.

It's misuse by some veterans of the unCivil War, beginning with Forrest, as a symbol of the Klan followed by it's complete misuse by the southern state legislatures who incorporated it into their state flags in order to display their opposition to integration and their support for Jim Crow makes it a symbol of hatred and ignorance for many who were oppressed under it.

I'm here to say that the bad may have overwhelmed the good, especially when my friends who are generally not racebaiters get agitated over that flag. I don't know that there's any remedy for it other than to burn it and find a new symbol, unless someone finds a way to appropriate it for the cause of all. Short of that I'm not willing to defend it's use.

That said, it's a topic for discussion in order to spread understanding, not demands and anger which cause resentment and more anger. Too many hotheads on both sides of this discussion refuse to acknowledge that the other side has valid points and that some social agreement has to come to pass here or there will always be this argument.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
Time to be patriotic...adopt an American flag and lose the stars n' bars. It's no different than taking down a US flag and putting up a Mexican flag at a Post Office IMO.

I disagree unless someone is actually trying to replace the US flag with the battle flag. Then there's a problem. A big one.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
It may not have started that way, but, in the end, that's what it was fought over. Not taxes; not giving more power to the individual state,

I disagree somewhat there. The battle over states rights would have happened at some point no matter what with the disparity between the southern and northern states, the issue of slavery is what defined which side the states were on, but if there had not been slavery there would have been something else.....but that's a Turtledove novel waiting to happen.


Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
Here's my thing on the flag. I don't have a problem with it personally. What I do have a problem with is how the state of Georgia (my home state now) put the Confederate battle flag on their flag as a big "fuck you" to the Feds back in the mid-50s. I have always supported changing the flag to what it is today.

One of the things I'm ashamed of in the history of my state. It's a fact that you try and tell some country boys that it's illegal to burn down your own home and you better not do it, they'll burn the sucker down and dare you to arrest them. This had as much to do with the stupidity over the flag as anything else. If you line up all the flag whiners in my state with their "Sonny Lied" stickers and forced them to discuss the issue they'd have no reasonable argument for keeping the 1957 flag. They'll either get angry and say "well, just because!" or they'll acknowledge the truth and just admit they don't like being told what to do. It's embarrassing and stupid, and I'm glad we have a new flag. I do wish we had the chance to vote on the old one, because it'd look better all the way around if we did and voted that bastard away so no one could accuse us of harboring secret wishes for it.

Quoting Maury (Reply 11):
By Jetjack's "logic," we should be cool with Germans flying the swastika flag

No...different things altogether. The swastika was a symbol of a political movement that took over the government and was the actual flag of that government. It stood over the death camps and represented that philosophy. Their military never completely accepted that, continuing to use the Maltese cross wherever possible (not excusing or exonerating the German army, but they were not all Nazis). The southern battle flag was a battlefield rallying point that had to look different than the US flag because that was an age where soldiers did rally around flags, literally, and used them as actual guidons.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
Sometimes an old flag can make a political statement that the original designers of the flag never intended for it to make.

True. This has happened here.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
although the old SA flag is replete with colonial symbolism,

Wasn't it, though? I always liked the Union and Dutch flags in the middle of the thing. Not that it matters, since it's not my flag.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 22):
I'd like to respond, but I feel there's too much public school indoctrinated ignorance to have a genuine discussion.

Said the public school attendee.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):
What I mean't was, the campaign to demonise the rebel flag, by likening it to the flag of the 3rd reich is what is silly.

Why? The people who misuse the flag to the hilt is the KKK, and other White Supremacists groups, Jack, and who do they almost always invoke-Adolpf Hitler, is that not correct. To them, he's a hero of what they would have like to see happen to the black man in this country.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):
But that's not what the flag was founded on.

Perhaps not, but what it came to represent, which is a government and a system that wanted to keep bondage of a race, is what is more important to a lot of people. The fact that it WAS used to support segregation and Jim Crow for a hundred years after the war is testament to that.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 30):
It's misuse by some veterans of the unCivil War, beginning with Forrest, as a symbol of the Klan followed by it's complete misuse by the southern state legislatures who incorporated it into their state flags in order to display their opposition to integration and their support for Jim Crow makes it a symbol of hatred and ignorance for many who were oppressed under it.

Concur.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
CastleIsland
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:26 am

One of the things claimed as justification for continued use of the confederate flag really puzzles me: "Southern Pride."

Hell, I was born in Massachusetts. Honestly, I had nothing to do with it. I'm not proud to be from MA, New England, or even America (or the Earth, for that matter). Now don't get me wrong. I love the US and I stand by it, but how the hell can one be proud of something that they had nothing to do with? It just makes no sense.

So while I feel some small amount of pride in the work I do to protect drinking water in the US, I just cannot see how pride has become such a rally cry for some people.

Be proud of your service to this or your nation. Be proud of aceing an interview and getting a good job, be proud of immigrating to the US and becoming a citizen, be proud of raising a good family. Otherwise, it just blows my mind that people can be proud of being from somewhere, or being white or black or Irish or Tazmanian, or flippin' green. Honestly, all you did was drop out of your mother in some location. Hardly anything for YOU to be proud of.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
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jetjack74
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 30):
Their military never completely accepted that, continuing to use the Maltese cross wherever possible (not excusing or exonerating the German army, but they were not all Nazis). The southern battle flag was a battlefield rallying point that had to look different than the US flag because that was an age where soldiers did rally around flags, literally, and used them as actual guidons.

And this is a fabulous point. The Maltese/Iron cross was worn not only by Nazi party members, German army and Luftwaffe, but a host of militaries. It's true symbol is that of honour, valour and sacrifice. We still use today in th Navy with the Navy Flying Cross, as well as many other nations in cluding Great Britain, with the Victoria's Cross

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
The people who misuse the flag to the hilt is the KKK, and other White Supremacists groups

Well, they also carry the stars and stripes in there "hate, come hither" marches, but as DL021 one poited out, a flag should not be deemed as a symbol of hate when it's true origins are largely unknown especially by those trying to torpedo it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
but what it came to represent,

Yes, but this emphasises the point that those in opposition need to educate themselves about the flag in question and learn to understand what it really symbolises before they castigate it as a symbol of hate, and not just make up there mind base on here-say or he said-she said.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
Honestly, I had nothing to do with it. I'm not proud to be from MA, New England, or even America



Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
Now don't get me wrong. I love the US and I stand by it,

There seems to be a little conflict there, lol.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
but how the hell can one be proud of something that they had nothing to do with? It just makes no sense.

Well, you don't have to be the architect of something great to feel pride in it. You appreciate it for what it's worth and not take it's legacy for granted. Now, I don't what southern pride is, maybe because i'm not from the south(well American south), but i'm sure there's a delightful anecdote to it. But I do feel proud to be a part of this country. I'm grateful I ended up here as opposed to where I came from.
Made from jets!
 
CastleIsland
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 33):
Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
Honestly, I had nothing to do with it. I'm not proud to be from MA, New England, or even America

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
Now don't get me wrong. I love the US and I stand by it,

There seems to be a little conflict there, lol.

No conflict at all, Jack. Loving a country is one thing, having pride about it is something else. This is the entire point of my post. Pride should be reserved for something you actually did. I was born an American. I had no active role in that. My whole point was the definition of pride vs. love for a country.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 33):
But I do feel proud to be a part of this country. I'm grateful I ended up here as opposed to where I came from.

And as I posted, you having immigrated to the US (well, emmigrated from SA, if you prefer), that's something to be proud of. You took an active role, in other words.

The whole point of my post was the differentiation of what is worthy of pride. Just because I love my country, I have no reason or claim to be proud of being an American. That was my parent's doing, not mine.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
Hell, I was born in Massachusetts. Honestly, I had nothing to do with it. I'm not proud to be from MA, New England, or even America (or the Earth, for that matter). Now don't get me wrong. I love the US and I stand by it, but how the hell can one be proud of something that they had nothing to do with? It just makes no sense.

well....I'll disagree here. I feel pride of place in my country, state and city on different levels. The pride I feel has much to do with how I treat my surroundings, community and fellow man. It's different than that which I take in my personal achievements, it's more about respect for the accomplishments of others and in taking care of what has been left to me to upkeep and defend. I'm proud of my country for it's history, as I'm ashamed of some things this country has done....even though I did not do them. I am responsible for making sure that the good things keep happening and preventing the bad from happening again.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
So while I feel some small amount of pride in the work I do to protect drinking water in the US,

You should feel great pride for you seem to do a good job. Your job is a necessary part of our society, and I'm glad someone with your talents is on that job.....you should also take pride in your support and participation in the arts as well as your participation in this community where ideas and interpretations (both intellectual and photographic) are continuously exchanged broadening everyone's exposure and experience.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
I just cannot see how pride has become such a rally cry for some people.

There are those who fear pride, as there are those who fear nationalism....mostly because they live in fear of human emotions that can be overdone. There is a difference between pride and hubris.....and the trick in life is to recognize the difference.
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CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
well....I'll disagree here.

Well, thanks for the kind words, Ian, but I stand by my initial premise. One cannot logically have pride in something with which one had no involvement or active role.

Pride has become such a thing as tradition. Both, on the surface, are hallmarks of diversity. However, both also create more division between people and races.

While I'd love to unconditionally approve of diversity, the concomitant necessity of tradition and pride also breeds the contemptible manifestation of "I'm right, you're wrong." The most brutally absurd concept of humanity ever bred.

So, I stick to my initial premise: I cannot be proud of somthing I had no active role in. I will not feed the division in race, people, or religion. I will acknowledge them as equals. (well, except for the extreme bits.)
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:05 pm



I love the Confederate Flag and have several of them in my house. Its a symbol of southern heritage and pride, not of hate and discrimination. Hate groups have hijacked the flag and used it in the wrong way. I do tend to get upset when someone that has no connections to the south decides to fly it. I remember Superfly telling me in some of the hick towns in California they fly the Confederate Flag claiming its part of California's heritage. Last time I checked, Cali was allied with the Union.

On another note, I was over at St. Luke's Cathedral (Anglican/Episcopalian) here in Orlando and they had a Confederate Flag hanging inside the sanctuary. I never thought I would ever see that.

-Delta767300ER
 
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jetjack74
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 34):
No conflict at all, Jack.


Sorry, had to do it, lol. I do see your point.

Made from jets!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 37):
Its a symbol of southern heritage and pride, not of hate and discrimination

Not to you, I understand that. But to black Americans, it's a symbol of slavery. That cannot be denied. And, to people like me, it's a symbol of treason, and that cannot be denied either.

The fact is that it means different things to different people needs to be kept in mind in such a debate. There is no doubt, though, it's one of the most polarizing symbols-140 years after that war-this nation has ever had.
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dl021
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 36):
One cannot logically have pride in something with which one had no involvement or active role.

what're you...a Vulcan? Remember that they simply suppress their feelings because they're too afraid of them, and too weak to allow them out....

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 36):
the concomitant necessity of tradition and pride also breeds the contemptible manifestation of "I'm right, you're wrong." The most brutally absurd concept of humanity ever bred.

after I looked up the definition of "concomitant" I decided that you ignore the fact that sometimes I'm right and you are wrong...and vice versa. It's not incorrect to tell someone who is wrong that there is a better way. There are degrees in how you exercise diplomacy and tact when you do so, but that's not the same thing as shutting up and allowing others to let their dogs crap in your lawn.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 36):
I cannot be proud of somthing I had no active role in. I will not feed the division in race, people, or religion. I will acknowledge them as equals. (well, except for the extreme bits.)

I regard my country as a living thing.....in whose organization, defence and leadership I actively partake. I look at the Constitution as more than a "hand-me-down" from men two centuries ago.....I look at it as the DNA of our nation, and I take pride in it as well. That's not feeding division in race or anything else. I'll go further to say that while all men are created equal by nature in our hearts we can surely agree that nature gives lie to that in anything other than a spiritual sense. Some are smarter, some are dumber...some religions are more civilized and some advocate raping 12 year old girls while turning them into slaves. I'll not stand by and agree that such a religion is the equal to mine since you must take a stand somewhere.

I'm proud of many things done by my country, since it was my forefathers that did them and I've learned from many and taken examples to guide me.


The flag issue, to get back on topic, is an example of a constant source of emotion and energy that dates back and engenders feelings of understandable pride and anger from different people. You seem to feel that there is a right side to that issue, don't you?
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MD-90
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 40):
what're you...a Vulcan? Remember that they simply suppress their feelings because they're too afraid of them, and too weak to allow them out....

His logic is....unlogical!
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:04 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 33):
The Maltese/Iron cross was worn not only by Nazi party members, German army and Luftwaffe, but a host of militaries. It's true symbol is that of honour, valour and sacrifice.

You forgot that the Maltese Cross is also the traditional symbol of US Fire Companies.

Returning to the Confederate Battle Ensign, I can appreciate the problems that some folk have with it's use due to the association with white supremacists and other issues. Historically, the flag was created for military necessity but was later misused by a minority of Confederate veterans who hijacked the Ki Klux Klan and used the group to dominate through intimidation. From what is known of the Ku Klux Klan, it appearently had no involvement with intimidation of blacks until Nathanial Bedford Forrest came to power. I blame the subjugation of blacks on not only Forrest but the United States of America, the United States Supreme Court and the Democratic Party (specifically the Dixiecrats). The United States permitted slavery until 1866 with the passage of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. However, enforcement of the rights of black citizens was sporadic at best in the Deep South and the inaction of the federal courts only made it worse. Of course there was the federal ruling in Plessy v. Ferguson which the southern legislators took as a declaration of open season on the civil rights of blacks-restricting them through legal measures under the guise of separate but equal. The Democratic Party, interested in maintaining the status quo continued to agitate for the federal government to allow the separate but equal precedence to stand and the National Democratic Party's support for the Dixiecrats.

As for Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis, both of them should have hung for treason. As a Colonel in the United States Marine Corps, Lee violated his oath as an officer to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies as did Davis, a former United States Senator. As it was, there were political considerations that determined their rather lenient treatment.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
dl021
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 42):
As a Colonel in the United States Marine Corps, Lee violated his oath as an officer to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies as did Davis, a former United States Senator. As it was, there were political considerations that determined their rather lenient treatment.

They would have had to hang hundreds or thousands of officers who had resigned their commissions (as had Lee) to serve in the CS army.

Reconciliation was not best served by killing the southern leaders. Davis was more liable than his generals, in any case, and he was found dressed as a woman somewhere in middle Georgia which ended any possibility of future public life. Lee at least served as a college president and contributed to the future of his nation after the war.

Oh, and Lee was a US Army officer, not a marine...unless there's something I don't know about here....
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57AZ
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 43):

Oh, and Lee was a US Army officer, not a marine...unless there's something I don't know about here....

All of the accounts that I recall indicate that he was a Marine officer. Quite possible that his forces were dispatched from Norfolk to Harper's Ferry where he got John Brown as I don't believe that the Army had sufficient forces in the area to deal with him other than the small force that he captured the armory from.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
Superfly
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
How come this flag isn't considered treasonous? I mean to fly the flag of a nation that was essentially the US's enemy...southern heritage or not...they wrote the check, Lincoln cashed it. Deal with it.

Time to be patriotic...adopt an American flag and lose the stars n' bars. It's no different than taking down a US flag and putting up a Mexican flag at a Post Office IMO.

It may be kitch...but it's a relic that has no relavance. The US flag is better suited to covering the heritage of the whole nation...including the South.

 checkmark 

Well said.
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dl021
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 44):
All of the accounts that I recall indicate that he was a Marine officer

I double checked and he was a Colonel in the regular US Army, and had been offered a generalship in the Union Army at the beginning of the war, which he accepted as long as his state did not secede. He was loyal first to his state, which is one place where his philosophy did not sit well with me.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
The US flag is better suited to covering the heritage of the whole nation...including the South.

I'll agree with this as well.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
To begin with, that is true. But after President Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclaimation, it changed the whole outlook on the war.

the Emancipation Procamation was almost as unpopular up north as it was down south. The Northern cause was Union, not abolishing slavery. Between the EP and the Union Army draft began the Deadly draft riots.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 46):
I double checked and he was a Colonel in the regular US Army, and had been offered a generalship in the Union Army at the beginning of the war,

Not only a Generalship but to head the Union Army.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
57AZ
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 47):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
To begin with, that is true. But after President Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclaimation, it changed the whole outlook on the war.

the Emancipation Procamation was almost as unpopular up north as it was down south. The Northern cause was Union, not abolishing slavery. Between the EP and the Union Army draft began the Deadly draft riots.

Indeed correct. It should also be noted that the attempts made by the United States Congress to compensate slave owners financially for the emancipation of their slaves all failed.

As for the Emancipation Proclaimation, it never freed anyone. Its wording was specifically chosen so as to avoid alienating key states such as Maryland which remained in the Union but retained slavery. As such, it attempted to exert authority over those in the territories in rebellion which did not recognize Lincoln's authority. Even the slaves that were seized by the United States Army were not classified as freemen, but as contraband seized by the United States Army (Gen. Benjamin Butler).

On the subject of Robert E. Lee, you are correct. It's been a while since I did any reading on the military aspect of the war but he was offered command of the United States Army.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
dl021
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RE: LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 47):
Not only a Generalship but to head the Union Army.

There is some discussion as to whether Winfield Scott offered Lee the entire Army or an army, which is two different things. Just as today we have the US Army and the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Armies, they had the same sort of formations then.
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