Derico
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Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:48 am

Argentina to Repeal Its Ban On Gays In The Military
08.31.06


The government of Argentina announced that it plans to repeal its ban on gay military personnel, according to recent news reports, making it the second country in South America, following Colombia, to prohibit discrimination in its armed forces.

Argentina's government plans to modernize its code of military justice which, among other changes, will no longer prohibit same-sex relationships among personnel in its armed forces.

"The ban was nonsense," said Colonel Judge Advocate Manual Lozano, in a media statement issued by Servicemembers Legal Defense Network on Thursday. "It's a matter of people's private lives."

According to C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, Argentina’s move toward nondiscrimination makes the United States increasingly isolated in its prohibition on gays in the military.

"From Israel to South Africa to Argentina, countries are recognizing that banning qualified service members only hurts their readiness,” said Osburn in a media statement.

“Eva Peron once observed that 'shadows cannot see themselves in the mirror of the sun.' Today, in her country, gay patriots are emerging from the shadows and being recognized for their dedication and service," Osburn’s statement continued.

Argentina joins a growing list of at least 25 nations that no longer exclude openly gay service personnel. American military allies, including Great Britain, Canada and Australia, have lifted their bans on open service.

Membership in the European Union requires nations to abolish any prohibitions on service by gays. Openly gay personnel from allied nations are currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, alongside American troops.

http://www.gaywired.com/article.cfm?section=9&id=10454

--------------------------------

In related issues, there are proposal to grant gays and lesbians full civil rights in other provinces beyond the three that have already done so.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:01 am

We are still behind in civil rights. Amazing that gay rights exist in the world, but not here. The so-called land of the free.

Bush keeps promoting this land of freedom and liberty abroad yet wants to legislate a limitiation of civil rights here.

Way to go Argentina!!!
You can't cure stupid
 
Cadet985
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:18 am

I personally see nothing wrong with gays, lesbians, etc. serving in the military. If someone wants to serve, and can PHYSICALLY serve, who really cares what their sexual preference is?

Marc
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:19 am

Haven't we beaten this subject to a bloody pulp a few times already on A.net??

The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life.

And the vast majority of the "social advocacy a.netters" will say we're being discriminatory and living in the past.

See: RE: Dont Ask Dont Tell? (by Kiwiandrew Dec 6 2005 in Non Aviation)#ID1026103

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Klaus
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life.

And the vast majority of the "social advocacy a.netters" will say we're being discriminatory and living in the past.

Your fellow servicemen and -women in the other western forces are grown up enough to deal with it without getting all hysterical. That would pretty much obliterate your claim #1 above and confirm statement #2 - if many of your own colleagues weren't already past that. One has to wonder what you're imagining would happen...!  eyebrow 
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
Haven't we beaten this subject to a bloody pulp a few times already on A.net??

Jeez, I say this and post it and I get flamed to death. You do and you get nothing.

But isn't this an open forum, to talk things to death and/or oblivion, discuss, debate and converse?

Even if it is to death?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
that being openly gay is inappropriate

As opposed to openly straight? I am openly gay, nor would you ever know it and I am highly appropriate in my surroundings.
You can't cure stupid
 
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LTU932
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 2):
I personally see nothing wrong with gays, lesbians, etc. serving in the military.

Me neither. Being gay, bisexual or straight doesn't mean you're better or worse in life.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
"The ban was nonsense,"

 checkmark 

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
"It's a matter of people's private lives."

 checkmark 

I feel appaled about how gays lose their rights more and more in the US while they're getting more and more rights in Europe and how sometimes Muslims get discriminated worldwide. I'm also someone who is in favour of equal rights to everyone (regardless of skin colour, religion or where you come from) and especially of ending gender discrimination (like for example remove the gender barrier in sports where men and women are mostly segregated). And this is why I say: regardless of whether you're homosexual, bisexual, straight, etc. and regardless of where you come from, in whom you believe or whether you're a man or a woman, you all have a right to be treated equal and with dignity. This right is embedded in many constitutions around the world, yet we continue to act unconstitutionally when it comes to certain people who "don't fit a certain requirement or profile".
 
afay1
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:03 am

As an aside, Poland and now Latvia both are in violation of their EU responsibilities in regard to this provision and gay rights in general; a nothing will probably ever be done as punishment. In any case, bravo for Argentina; hopefully it works in practice too!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:12 am

Congrats to Argentina!

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
Haven't we beaten this subject to a bloody pulp a few times already on A.net??

I saw this as an announcement of a policy change, not as a call to arms.
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Derico
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:50 am

Sexuality pressures in the military both from the heterosexual and homosexual crowd is a seperate issue I think. There is plenty of sexual harrassment in military circles, but I don't think no one at this point suggests banning women.

The core issue is the harrassers, not the sexual preference.
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falstaff
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:05 am

Having gay persons in the service is not really that big of a deal. I am not gay and have never been in the service, but they will always be there even if people don't like it. Back in the 90s when this was a huge issue I remember my father and grandfather talking about serving with openly gay men in WWII and Vietnam. Wasn't the ban fairly recent? I want to say 1982 or 84. If a able bodied person wants to serve their country let them. I was deemed unfit for service in the military so I never could be part of it. Let someone else have my spot. One of my former students is in the Army right now and he is gay. He just didn't say anything about it to anyone official. He doesn't serve because he wants to cause trouble or flaunt his gayness he just wants to be "part of the action and kick ass". No matter what people say they will always be there. Sure it might cause some trouble with some people, but I doubt anymore than some other groups of people.
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Falcon84
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
Haven't we beaten this subject to a bloody pulp a few times already on A.net??

Here's making it official, UH60:


 biggrin 

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life

At one time, same thing was said about blacks, my friend; same thing was said about women. It isn't any more inappropriate than the losers who fondled and accosted women at Tailhook, 'lo so many years ago, and other transgressions by straights, is it?

If someone wants to serve their country, and is willing and able to do so-as long as they don't make overt and unwanted advances to anyone, why should anyone care what their orientation is? I mean, we hear about problems women have had at Annapolis and the Air Force Academy on on off for how long? And that's semi-tolerated. Why isn't a gay person tolerated? Especially in a time when the military needs people to fill their ranks?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
And the vast majority of the "social advocacy a.netters" will say we're being discriminatory and living in the past.

I don't even care about that, man. I just think it's stupid, backward and totally out-of-date, if you will, in today's society. There are many gays and lesbians who just want to serve their country! Why don't we let them? Isn't it bad enough that we're making them feel like second-class citizens everwhere else? Let them distinguish themselves as members of the armed forces!

Congrats to Argentina, for stepping out of the dark ages on this one. I hope the U.S. will follow suit, when the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania and his party lose their dominance in Washington.
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afay1
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:06 am

To be fair, and this is off-topic, Clinton enacted the current Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy and Colin Powell, a benefitee of integration if there ever were one, was the prime instigator and champion. Even without the Iraq lying thing, his involvement with My Lai and the hypocrisy of 92's don't ask don't tell taint him...
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life.

NOT this A-Netter. Like it or not UH60, it's the ignorance of the "straight" military that makes you THINK the majority will say . . . . .

Personally, I don't give a hoot in hell . . . if you can move, shoot and communicate I don't care who you sleep with.

In fact, and I've said this before, I had two people on my Personal Staff, both military, and both gay/lesbian . . . and I protected them - at my own peril I realize but dismiss . . . because they are great soldiers and great people and great friends. They will stay nameless as they are both still serving on Active Duty.

The policy is antiquated, as antiquated as the Sodomy Law that was recently written out of the UCMJ. Ignorance by the "straight" military is the cause of the furor over the issue, NOT the fact some great soldiers are gay/lesbian.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
when the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania and his party lose their dominance in Washington.

The current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave is NOT to blame for the issue of gays in the military. Speaking of beating a dead fuckin' horse there Falcon . . . . you need to look way back beyond PotUS . . . although he hasn 't caused any advancement in this arena, he is NOT to blame. So you can back off that  redflag  right now. You can also stow the bullshit about the Republicans being at fault regarding the issue of gays/lesbians in the military. It took both parties to keep it dicked up. So you can back off that as well.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Speaking of beating a dead fuckin' horse there Falcon . . . .

Hey, go find your own dead fucking horse, dude! I got the horse in there first.  Big grin
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:54 am

I'm not going into the full blown argument - because I already linked to a previous thread where everything was already argued out.

But look... this policy has been around for going on 10yrs now, every person currently in the military signed a form swearing they would abide by it. Everyone has come into the military knowing this policy existed and they were asked to put the military above their personal life.

And that's the issue isn't? The military is not centered around the individual, it's centered around the overall collective group. There are MANY instances where soldiers are asked to place the needs of the group of their own personal needs. And that's what it boils down to: you're going to be asked to place the needs of the military before your own needs.

And if you feel your sexual preference is a defining part of who you are - and that you can't live happily without being "out" - then maybe the military isn't your cup of tea. And it's not just homosexuals. I know a couple of guys who are very "family orientated" and they've had a very difficult time being separated.

You're going to have to make sacrifices. It's part of the deal. But you know, the military is coming around to gays/lesbians serving openly, and it's happening quietly. The last thing the cause needs is large media attention. The religous nuts will come out of the woodworks and only negate any advances made. Give it 10yrs and things will be different.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
But you know, the military is coming around to gays/lesbians serving openly, and it's happening quietly. The last thing the cause needs is large media attention. The religous nuts will come out of the woodworks and only negate any advances made. Give it 10yrs and things will be different.

I concur with that assessment. The US Military is - to coin a phrase I'm sure you've heard UH-60 - "Slow but Trainable". It will happen. And within the next decade . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
AirCop
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:17 pm

May I present the comments of Barry Goldwater;

Ban on Gays is Senseless Attempt to Stall the Inevitable
By Barry M. Goldwater
The following is a transcript of Barry Goldwater's commentary on the military gay ban that appeared this week in the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times.

After more than 50 years in the military and politics, I am still amazed to see how upset people can get over nothing. Lifting the ban on gays in the military isn't exactly nothing, but it's pretty damned close

Everyone knows that gays have served honorably in the military since at least the time of Julius Caesar. They'll still be serving long after we're all dead and buried. That should not surprise anyone.

But most Americans should be shocked to know that while the country's economy is going down the tubes, the military has wasted half a billion dollars over the past decade chasing down gays and running them out of the armed services.

It's no great secret that military studies have proved again and again that there's no valid reason for keeping the ban on gays. Some thought gays were crasy, but then found that wasn't true. then they decided that gays were a security risk, but again the Department of Defense decided that wasn't so-in fact, one study by the Navy in 1956 that was never made public found gays to be good security risks. Even Larry Korb, President Reagan's man in charge of implementing the Pentagon ban on gays, now admits that it was a dumb idea. No wonder my friend Dick Cheney, secretary of defense under President Bush, called it "a bit of an old chestnut"

When the facts lead to one conlusion, I say it's time to act, not to hide. The country and the military know that eventually the ban will be lifted. The only remaining questions are how much muck we will all be dragged through, and how many brave Americans like Tom Paniccia and Margarethe Cammermeyer will have their lives and careers destroyed in a senseless attempt to stall the inevitable.

Some in congress think I'm wrong. They say we absolutely must continue to discriminate, or all hell will break loose. Who knows, they say, perhaps our soldiers may even take up arms against each other.

Well, that's just stupid.

Years ago, I was a lieutenant in charge of an all-black unit. Military leaders at the time believed that blacks lacked leadership potential - period. That seems ridiculous now, as it should. Now, each and every man and woman who serves this nation takes orders from a black man - our own Gen. Colin Powell.

Nobody thought that blacks or women could ever be integrated into the military. Many thought that an all-volunteer force could never protect our national interest. Well, it has, and despite those who feared the worst - I among them - we are still the best and will continue to be.

The point is that decisions are always a lot easier to make in hindsight. but we seldom have that luxury. That's why the future of our country depends on leadership, and that's what we need now.

I served in the armed forces. I have flown more than 150 of the best fighter planes and bombers this country manufactured. I founded the Arizona National Guard. I chaired the Senate Armed Services Committee. And I think it's high time to pull the curtains on this charade of policy.

What should undermine our readiness would be a compromise policy like "Don't ask, don't tell." That compromise doesn't deal with the issue - it tries to hide it.

We have wasted enough precious time, money and talent trying to persecute and pretend. It's time to stop burying our heads in the sand and denying reality for the sake of politics. It's time to deal with this straight on and be done with it. It's time to get on with more important business.

The conservative movement, to which I subscribe, has as one of its basic tenets the belief that government should stay out of people's private lives. Government governs best when it governs least - and stays out of the impossible task of legislating morality. But legislating someone's version of morality is exactly what we do by perpetuating discrimination against gays.

When you get down to it, no American able to serve should be allowed, much less given an excuse, not to serve his or her country. We need all our talent.

If I were in the Senate today, I would rise on the Senate floor in support of our commander in chief. He may be a Democrat, but he happens to be right on this question.

(Arizona Republican Barry M. Goldwater retired from the Senate in 1987)

Barry was right on this one. In today's world he would be classified as a liberal Republican.
 
AA777
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life.

Well then maybe "military life" needs to be overhauled. Obviously if they have lifted bans in all these other nations, it really must not be getting in the way too much. Also, the "vast majority" of the 'military' a.netters are straight...and raised in a certain mindset. I highly doubt the majority of them are very liberal... so it follows that they would think that being openly gay is at odds with military life. The truth probably is that for them, they think it would be weird. But if they arent gay, why should they care? Get over it and do your job instead of worrying about who is in love with who...

-AA777
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
If I were in the Senate today, I would rise on the Senate floor in support of our commander in chief. He may be a Democrat, but he happens to be right on this question.

I would not expect less of a politician like him. We need more patriots (Dems and Repubs) like Goldwater in the Congress.

In regard to the topic, I guess the moderately liberal Kirchner(sp?) is behind this. Kudos to him. I wonder if the Army will fully support the decision of its Commander in Chief.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting AA777 (Reply 18):
Well then maybe "military life" needs to be overhauled. Obviously if they have lifted bans in all these other nations, it really must not be getting in the way too much. Also, the "vast majority" of the 'military' a.netters are straight...and raised in a certain mindset. I highly doubt the majority of them are very liberal... so it follows that they would think that being openly gay is at odds with military life. The truth probably is that for them, they think it would be weird. But if they arent gay, why should they care? Get over it and do your job instead of worrying about who is in love with who...

Yeah yeah... person in the military ---> straight ----> conservative ---> homophobic.

Give me a break.  Yeah sure

Look, if you read that thread I linked too, you'll read the same thing: we don't have issues with someone being gay! Who freakin' cares what your sexual orientation is?

And as at least two of us have already said: the military is coming around. In ten years things will be different. But the last thing the cause to abolish DADT needs is for the issue to come to center stage! Putting aside the fact that we're neck deep in a global war and that is (as it should be) our primary focus... the military can't afford to have the abolishment of DADT shoved down its throat.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Doona
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 7):
As an aside, Poland and now Latvia both are in violation of their EU responsibilities in regard to this provision and gay rights in general; a nothing will probably ever be done as punishment. In any case, bravo for Argentina; hopefully it works in practice too!

You need to remember that the EU is not one nation like the US. It's up to each country to implement laws, their own and the EU's. Sweden does not comply with standards when it comes to taxes on alcohol, for example.

However, the Latvian and Polish violations are disgusting.

Cheers
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searpqx
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:06 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life.

I know of at least two military a.netters, whom I greatly respect, who don't agree

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
NOT this A-Netter. Like it or not UH60, it's the ignorance of the "straight" military that makes you THINK the majority will say . . . . .

And there is one of them now.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
Give it 10yrs and things will be different.

I know you think this is a positive, and that's how you meant it, but telling someone to just not rock the boat and be patient, things will get better, has never been the best way to go about gaining equal rights. The fact of the matter is that 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' is being abused by some in the military. Discharges are actually up over last year, and there are plenty of documented cases of the military actually pursuing discharges against service members that hadn't violated the 'don't tell' portion.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
this policy has been around for going on 10yrs now, every person currently in the military signed a form swearing they would abide by it. Everyone has come into the military knowing this policy existed and they were asked to put the military above their personal life.

No one is talking about members of the military violating an existing law. What we're talking about is changing an outdated and outmoded law that has no real effect other than to continue discrimination.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
the military can't afford to have the abolishment of DADT shoved down its throat.

Why not, what actual harm would it cause? I'm not talking fears, I'm talking about actual provable damage repealing the policy would cause.

BTW, back OT, kudos to Argentina for taking this step.

[Edited 2006-09-04 09:07:41]
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
Look, if you read that thread I linked too, you'll read the same thing: we don't have issues with someone being gay! Who freakin' cares what your sexual orientation is?

UH, I don't know why you're getting your panties in a twist over this.

Derico posted a new item about Argentina. EWR posted his remorse that it's not the same for the U.S., gave his congrats to Argentina for moving forward, then you chimed in with being upset this was posted at all.

The only person who keeps beating this dead horse is you. I don't get it. No one's trying to get a peek at your weenie in the shower, so just drop it, okay? (The subject, not the soap.)  Wink It's really getting to the point where the lady doth protesteth too much.
International Homo of Mystery
 
cedars747
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:31 pm

I am not surprised ! Personally i know few of them  Wink
A good move for the Argentinian government
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
AA777
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):

And as at least two of us have already said: the military is coming around. In ten years things will be different. But the last thing the cause to abolish DADT needs is for the issue to come to center stage! Putting aside the fact that we're neck deep in a global war and that is (as it should be) our primary focus... the military can't afford to have the abolishment of DADT shoved down its throat.

I'm not giving a certain time frame. Bottom line is that I believe it should be changed. I'll give you that changing the policy in the middle of this war might not be a good idea. But perhaps the policy should have been changed before the war anyways.

-AA777
 
pbottenb
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:39 am

Wow, those Argentines are making a bold step. I hope they do something about those dreadful uniforms and come up with something frilly and FABULOUS!

Im sure the Brits will run scared from the Islas Malvinas when they see division of Argintine regulars landing on the beach sporting these:



 Wink
 
halls120
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
According to C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, Argentina’s move toward nondiscrimination makes the United States increasingly isolated in its prohibition on gays in the military.

"From Israel to South Africa to Argentina, countries are recognizing that banning qualified service members only hurts their readiness,” said Osburn in a media statement.

Congratulations to Argentina.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 1):
Bush keeps promoting this land of freedom and liberty abroad yet wants to legislate a limitiation of civil rights here.

Boy, you just can't avoid jumping at the chance to bash Bush, can you? You might want to get your facts straight. the legal prohibition against gays in the military was in place long before GWB became president.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life

I spent over 21 years on active duty. I thought then, and do now, that the prohibition is ridiculous.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
But look... this policy has been around for going on 10yrs now, every person currently in the military signed a form swearing they would abide by it. Everyone has come into the military knowing this policy existed and they were asked to put the military above their personal life.

DADT is a travesty, and a profile in cowardice put forth by the Clinton administration.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 22):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
The vast majority of the "military a.netters" will say that being openly gay is inappropriate and at odds with military life.
I know of at least two military a.netters, whom I greatly respect, who don't agree

If you ran a poll, I'd bet most of us would be in favor of dropping the ban.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
jcs17
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:35 am



We salute you Argentina!
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):
Boy, you just can't avoid jumping at the chance to bash Bush, can you? You might want to get your facts straight. the legal prohibition against gays in the military was in place long before GWB became president.

No, I couldn't. My post was in regards to gay marriage with that comment. It wasn't a "bash", just stating fact. My facts are correct. It had nothing to with the military.

I should have been more forthcoming with where I was coming from, with regards to my statement (even if it was off topic).

I still say "Right On Argentina"!!!

Nice to see other countries farther ahead in civil liberties.
You can't cure stupid
 
halls120
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 29):

No, I couldn't. My post was in regards to gay marriage with that comment. It wasn't a "bash", just stating fact. My facts are correct. It had nothing to with the military.

I should have been more forthcoming with where I was coming from, with regards to my statement (even if it was off topic).

I still say "Right On Argentina"!!!

Your facts aren't correct. Bush inherited a long standing prohibition.

But I agree that we should congratulate Argentina.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
Your facts aren't correct. Bush inherited a long standing prohibition.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 29):
My post was in regards to gay marriage with that comment. It wasn't a "bash", just stating fact. My facts are correct. It had nothing to with the military.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 29):
I should have been more forthcoming with where I was coming from, with regards to my statement (even if it was off topic).


a tad off topic

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
But I agree that we should congratulate Argentina.

Here, here (at least we agree on something   )

[Edited 2006-09-08 01:38:07]
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Falcon84
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
And that's what it boils down to: you're going to be asked to place the needs of the military before your own needs.

And why is a gay person different in that regard than a striaght person UH60? For the most part, they're not.

The problem is the brass has perpetuated this myth that in the foxhole, during battle, a gay soldier is going to be thinking about having sex with the guy next to him, instead of the mission at hand. Do you really believe that? I don't. Most gays get into the military not to find a sex partner, but to serve their nation. And if they can do it, there should be no problem.

The problem is not with the gays-it's with many of the straights and their officers in the military, who perpetuate this lie. And, after the shame of Tailhook, it most certainly is a hypocritic lie.
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halls120
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
The problem is not with the gays-it's with many of the straights and their officers in the military, who perpetuate this lie. And, after the shame of Tailhook, it most certainly is a hypocritic lie.

Actually Falcon, you are partially wrong. The problem is partially the fault of all the gay active duty officers who won't come out of the closet. I worked for and with many gay officers during my active duty days. Some of them became flag officers. And yet they have remained silent.

I know why they do it, and while I understand the reasons they remain silent, just think of the impact they would have if they spoke out.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 33):
Actually Falcon, you are partially wrong. The problem is partially the fault of all the gay active duty officers who won't come out of the closet. I worked for and with many gay officers during my active duty days. Some of them became flag officers. And yet they have remained silent.

Actually, you're dead wrong. Of course they remain silent! They've become honorable, outstanding soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines, and because of the paranoia passed down through the ranks, they would lose it all.

I don't blame them one damn bit. If they've served so honorably, what good would it do to throw away an outstanding career?
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halls120
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):

Actually, you're dead wrong. Of course they remain silent! They've become honorable, outstanding soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines, and because of the paranoia passed down through the ranks, they would lose it all.

I don't blame them one damn bit. If they've served so honorably, what good would it do to throw away an outstanding career?

If they came out of the closet - even after retiring - how would they be "throwing away their careers?"

Since you've never served, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. What you don't realize is that there are three "camps" in today's military. Gays, straights who support or don't oppose gays serving, and straights that oppose gays. The latter is in the minority. All it would take is for some leadership at the top to come out and say "this is wrong," and opposition would crumble.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
All it would take is for some leadership at the top to come out and say "this is wrong," and opposition would crumble.

That's correct. And there's no point in any active duty homosexual to toss away their career until someone at the top has the balls to do so.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
And why is a gay person different in that regard than a striaght person UH60? For the most part, they're not.

The problem is the brass has perpetuated this myth that in the foxhole, during battle, a gay soldier is going to be thinking about having sex with the guy next to him, instead of the mission at hand. Do you really believe that? I don't. Most gays get into the military not to find a sex partner, but to serve their nation. And if they can do it, there should be no problem.

The problem is not with the gays-it's with many of the straights and their officers in the military, who perpetuate this lie. And, after the shame of Tailhook, it most certainly is a hypocritic lie.

Like I said - a lot of the argument is already laid out in the thread mentioned above.

But look - the idea doesn't necessary make me uncomfortable per say... it's just that I'd rather not go through a very large, very public, showdown should DADT be abolished, say this month or something.

I know it's a shitty situation - I know it's really wrong of me to ask a gay soldier to keep living a lie to simply spare the military a major embarrassment. But all I can say is, I am confident in the next decade things will change dramatically. And again - I don't like saying it - but there are still quite a few soldiers who wouldn't react well to DADT being abolished. I feel bad - but it's true.

And that is what it all boils down to... who do we please? Do we finally give gay soldiers the rights they deserve? Or do we "not rock the boat" and not disrupt unit cohesion during a time when we need to be more unified than ever?

We as a fighting force have a lot of battles that need waging... and I am truly sorry, but I just don't see DADT was one of those battles. And I feel bad for asking this of gay soldiers:, Things are changing, just please place the unit before yourself and suffer a little longer.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 37):
Things are changing, just please place the unit before yourself and suffer a little longer.

Would you ask the same of Jewish or black soldiers?
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 37):
Do we finally give gay soldiers the rights they deserve? Or do we "not rock the boat" and not disrupt unit cohesion during a time when we need to be more unified than ever?

Maybe more people would be willing to serve their country if they knew it was a place they could serve and not have to look over their shoulders to see a court-martial or discharge waiting.

Especially now that the military is having a hard time keeping individuals in and getting low turn-out for inductions.
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searpqx
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 37):
Things are changing, just please place the unit before yourself and suffer a little longer.

Would you ask the same of Jewish or black soldiers?

 checkmark 

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 37):
it's just that I'd rather not go through a very large, very public, showdown should DADT be abolished, say this month or something.

Thats just the point - if its abolished, there is no showdown - it's just gone. Or are you saying that while its ok to ask the gay military members to keep their feelings to themselves, if the rules are changed, its not ok to ask it of everyone else?

Listen, I do understand a lot of what you're saying, and while I disagree with you on this subject, I can respect where you are coming from. But the fact remains, its discrimination, supported by nothing other than fear and paranoia. The rules need to change, and while now may not be the best time, there's never a good time to perpetuate bigotry.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
Would you ask the same of Jewish or black soldiers?

Again - it's really tough and I honestly feel shitty when I so strongly oppose it. Because no matter how much I try and rationalize it - I know that what I am doing, and what I am asking, is morally wrong. Because the only true yard stick should be whether you're a good soldier or not.

Race/sex/sexual preference shouldn't be in that equation.

But I also know how much of an adverse reaction a large amount would have. And I'll admit it - I've added to the problem myself (I'm ashamed to say it - but it's the truth). I've told a soldier (who was crying) to stop being a f*g and to "man up." That kind of asshole remark - whether intentional or not - adds to the anti-gay atmosphere. But, I thought about it, realized it was wrong, and I don't do it anymore. And I honestly see a lot of other people making conscious efforts to be more "accepting."

But we're still not there. And I know that if we abolished DADT today - there would be a very distruptive, very adverse reaction. And while it would eventually settle down and we'd learn to live with it... I just don't think we can afford to deal with it right now.

And that's why I feel bad - because I don't think we can afford to rock the boat. Even if it means we have to continue to oppress another soldier. It's sad... but as a soldier you're often asked to place the greater good before your own well being.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 41):
And that's why I feel bad - because I don't think we can afford to rock the boat. Even if it means we have to continue to oppress another soldier. It's sad... but as a soldier you're often asked to place the greater good before your own well being.

I don't see why you'd ask another soldier to make a sacrifice you yourself wouldn't be willing to make. Isn't that what placing the greater good before your own well being means?
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 39):
Especially now that the military is having a hard time keeping individuals in and getting low turn-out for inductions.

I know this is totally off topic... but that's not true. We've actually had record amounts of re-enlistments for the past 3 years. And all 4 branches have met their recruiting goals for every month this year. In all reality - the manpower size has GROWN in the last few years. The numbers are public domain.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:38 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 40):
But the fact remains, its discrimination, supported by nothing other than fear and paranoia.

I don't disagree with that... it's the truth. Sad - but true.

I think that had President Clinton rejected DADT, and said to the military, "You WILL accept gays and you WILL learn to integrate them just as you have done with blacks and females. Understood?" we as a military would have been better off. Because just like when blacks first integrated, or they opened the doors to virtually all MOSs to females, there would have been a huge initial uproar from within... but it would have calmed down eventually.

But that was peacetime. And without getting into the politics of the war - Iraq IS the number #1 priority in the military. We're stretched thin, we've got rather large demands on our shoulders and we're embattled with a very tough enemy. I am speaking from experience here - if DADT was abolished today - it would honestly effect our operational readiness in theater. No joke - lives would be in danger because some soldiers are too thickheaded to realize Pvt Snuffy isn't any less of a soldier now then he was 10mins ago, before he said he was gay.

The war is our focus. Our most important focus.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):
I don't see why you'd ask another soldier to make a sacrifice you yourself wouldn't be willing to make. Isn't that what placing the greater good before your own well being means?

Well I know it sounds silly - but soldiers are asked to sacrifice a lot of things. Whether its like what happened to me the other day: "Hey Chief, platoon X is under heavy fire and we need you to lay down some suppressive fire. You're going to be exposed and we don't have any SAR (search and rescue) units in the area. So if you go down, you're screwed. But we need you to take a huge risk and go fight those guys to save platoon X." And that's a biggie. There are a lot of smaller ones like, "Hey Pvt Snuffy, Sgt Joe hasn't talk to his wife for 12 days, can you donate your phone time to him?"

In other words - a lot of times you are asked to go without, so that the greater good can function more efficiently. It's a tough thing to learn - but they beat it into you  

But seriously - I rather ask a soldier to suffer and remain in the closet under DADT, then to risk lives because certain soldiers wouldn't react well to him outing himself. It's cold. It's calculating. But a lot of what we do is exactly that.

-UH60

[Edited 2006-09-08 03:47:00]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 44):
No joke - lives would be in danger because some soldiers are too thickheaded to realize Pvt Snuffy isn't any less of a soldier now then he was 10mins ago, before he said he was gay.

Let me ask you something honestly. Do you believe that if DADT was abolished at noon tomorrow that every gay in the military would leap out of their foxhole and perform a rendition of Cabaret? Think about it, of course not. These guys are conditioned not to come out of the closet. They're out there fighting for their country and understand unit cohesion, and all the things that everyone is so fearful having openly gay and lesbian soldiers will destroy. What you're saying is that tomorrow at noon, they would suddenly stop having a clue. I don't believe that for a second.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 44):
But seriously - I rather ask a soldier to suffer and remain in the closet under DADT, then to risk lives because certain soldiers wouldn't react well to him outing himself. It's cold. It's calculating. But a lot of what we do is exactly that.

I would give your fellow soldiers more credit than that.
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halls120
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 44):
I think that had President Clinton rejected DADT, and said to the military, "You WILL accept gays and you WILL learn to integrate them just as you have done with blacks and females. Understood?" we as a military would have been better off. Because just like when blacks first integrated, or they opened the doors to virtually all MOSs to females, there would have been a huge initial uproar from within... but it would have calmed down eventually.

 checkmark  x 3!
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 45):
I would give your fellow soldiers more credit than that.

I hate to do this (because god knows I am one of A.Net's biggest military cheerleaders) But these two immediately came to mind:

http://www.temenos.net/remember/winchell/news0716.htm

http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/107491

Is it wrong? Absolutely. Is it sickening? Absolutely? Is it the sad reality? Absolutely.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 45):
Let me ask you something honestly. Do you believe that if DADT was abolished at noon tomorrow that every gay in the military would leap out of their foxhole and perform a rendition of Cabaret?

lol - of course not. But it's a lot like when the Army announced they were going to allow females to fly helicopters. There was a HUGE uproar. And females hadn't even entered flight school, let alone hit the units yet! And when they did - those women were tough to endure what they did. And like it or not - her presence in that unit REDUCED it's CRL (combat readiness level) And not because of her... but because of idiots in the unit.

I just don't know. Do we want to deal with this issue and everything it carries with it right now? Or do we delay it? And simply because I've seen enough dead soldiers (and I'm only 2/3 through my deployment)... I don't know if I want to see more simply to easy my guilty conscious. I'm sorry.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 47):
There was a HUGE uproar.

LOL, you know I hate to say this, because I do respect a lot of people within the military, and my family has a long list of military heroes going back to the Revolutionary War and beyond, but do you see a reoccuring theme here? All of these manly men screaming like some sort of showgirl routine at the mere thought of change? ANY kind of change? It boggles my mind.
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Falcon84
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RE: Argentina Lifts Ban On Gays In Military

Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 37):
I know it's really wrong of me to ask a gay soldier to keep living a lie to simply spare the military a major embarrassment.

I don't think you're wrong, per se. What is wrong is the mentality that the brass (now backed by this administration) continues to send down the pipeline-that gays are just perverted individuals who are just waiting for you to drop your soap in the shower.

Never mind, as I say, all the scandals, like Tailhook, where good 'ole straight boys raped or accosted or roughed up women. All the onus, in the top brass, is placed on gays.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 37):
Things are changing, just please place the unit before yourself and suffer a little longer.

Which is not fair at all, and shouldn't have to happen. Why can't an outstanding male or female soldier, sailor, airman or marine, who has served with dignity, honor and courage, be FORCED to keep silent, when obviously they have the right stuff to serve their nation.

It certainly won't happen before January 20th, 2009. Not with the current climate being floated towards gays by this present administration in Washington.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 39):
Maybe more people would be willing to serve their country if they knew it was a place they could serve and not have to look over their shoulders to see a court-martial or discharge waiting.

The home run point of the thread.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 41):
Because the only true yard stick should be whether you're a good soldier or not.

You got it. So why should we wait any longer? To satisfy the prudish in our society? To keep up a terrible lie being fostered on our men and women in the forces by the brass?

Let them serve, openly and with distinction. And, like anyone serving, if they are caught in conduct unbecoming WHILE IN UNIFORM, they get what they deserve.

We've a lready seen, with the shamefull cover-up and stonewalling at Tailhook, 'lo many years ago, there's a double-standard. It's time to close that standard, on both ends of the rope.
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